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Topic: Getting Started
Message: Posted by: Rssudo (Jan 9, 2018 01:48PM)
So I've been doing magic for quite some time, and am looking to make the jump to hypnosis. I've read quite a few books on hypnosis, however haven't been able to get off the floor and successfully hypnotise...
I know this is probably a commonplace question, but I'm after any tips to get started given that I've already read a fair few books.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 9, 2018 02:00PM)
Get proper training from qualified professionals that specialize in both hypnosis and entertaining with hypnosis. Safety should also be included in such training. It is really the best investment you can make. Then once you do that seek entertainment business training to properly establish your business and the operations of everything it entails. Best of luck!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 9, 2018 02:44PM)
Given the wealth of inexpensive information out there it should not be too tough. A person could, and has, read "The Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnosis" and done shows. It is still a valid work.

In reality it depends greatly upon who you are as a person. How do you learn and process information?

If you really want to learn to do a show, and I mean have a career you can make a living at and learn all that you need to know about it contact Terry Stokes.

One of the best ever by orders of magnitude and he is teaching students. What does it cost? I have no clue. But WHATEVER it is I will guarantee it is worth it IF you are serious.

Terry is probably not the inexpensive alternative. And he shouldn't be. But considering he will give you information that lasts a lifetime making big money it is more than worth it.
Message: Posted by: Rssudo (Jan 9, 2018 04:42PM)
Right thanks guys, I'll look into it although being a uni student, I'm not really looking for a career just quite yet, more another pastime that could go with my magic if I find I like it enough.
I've read the Science of Hypnotism, The encyclopedia of stage hypnosis, Hypnotism and Self Hypnosis, The truth about Hypnotism, and Deeper and Deeper, however never really had any chance to try out any techniques in the books.
I don't want to put someone at risk, and obviously to start with I only want to do the most basic, but I don't know how to approach someone to ask if I can try stuff if that makes sense?

Are there any 'must read' books?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 9, 2018 04:57PM)
You want to approach complete strangers on tr street and practice on them? I have absolutely no helpful advice.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 9, 2018 05:30PM)
Hypnosis isn't a magic trick that you quickly learn and then execute. It is a science and then an art if you chose to perform it that comes with liability, risks and potential concerns and dangers if you do not know what you are doing. Then there is also the way it is perceived and experienced by the subjects that should also be a great concern and priority. The last thing you should be thinking of if you desire to truly learn hypnosis is approaching strangers like that. That is what a magician does.

Seems the first step may be having the proper perspective of hypnosis. Magician's "hypnosis" and hypnosis are two different things. Plus those of us that are professional hypnotists don't need any faux-hypnotists or someone spreading incorrect misconceptions about the realities of what it is.

I'm guessing your in the UK?

The rest of us all know now what is going to happen next. Likely wthin the next 24 hours or so...
Message: Posted by: Rssudo (Jan 9, 2018 05:40PM)
I don't mean to approach complete strangers on the street, and I do understand the risks (given my reading isn't purely with regards to stage hypnotism)

I meant approaching people whom I know while performing magic, how would I say "Hey do you mind if I experiment on you" <-- That sort of thing


[quote]On Jan 9, 2018, Mindpro wrote:

I'm guessing your in the UK?

The rest of us all know now what is going to happen next. Likely wthin the next 24 hours or so... [/quote]

How did you guess I'm in the UK? And what's going to happen next?
Message: Posted by: kevinuncanny (Jan 9, 2018 06:03PM)
Www.NoBullHypnosis.com
Feb 9-11 in Las Vegas
Message: Posted by: mindmagic (Jan 10, 2018 02:52AM)
If you are in the UK, read up on the Hypnotism Act 1952 and also consider insurance.

Also read "Reality is Plastic" by Anthony Jacquin.

Barry
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jan 10, 2018 12:05PM)
Terry Stokes is very highly regarded, and seems like a genuinely cool guy. I would like to take a course with him some day.

Michael C Anthony has somewhat recently revamped his Stage Hypnosis University online training.

I've lately been wondering if in person training really is the best, personally. How much can one possibly learn in a weekend? Or a week long course? I've never seen anything offered that's longer than that, that wasn't a college program towards a degree. When you learn online, you can review as many times as you need and take much more thorough notes. That's my personal opinion and I respect that others will likely disagree with me.

Michael's SHU though, seems like the best of both worlds. A lot of videos covering all aspects of entertainment hypnosis (I believe including the health and safety and definitely the business side of things), and then one on one video call sessions to build a show and guide you on the business side. It is not cheap, though, and I don't think it should be.

I haven't done his course and I'm getting no benefit whatsoever to recommend it, but at least to me, it seems like one of the best options out there.
Message: Posted by: Adrien L. (Jan 10, 2018 12:47PM)
Get proper training is kinda the default answer around here, isn't it?

I'm not sure exactly what you want to do, but if you're like me and just want to LOOK LIKE a magician that can hypnotize people (instead of an actual hypnotist) then I would suggest the way I started: do your hypnosis as a "test" to find the right participant for your next trick.

Start super small: "next I'm going to try something a bit different and I need someone with a great imagination" and then proceed into some standard suggestibility tests like Mag. Fingers / Hands, etc (which are kind of amazing on their own). Do this like you're just looking for the perfect person for your next trick. Then do your trick (a coin bend would work great here).

Once you're comfortable with that, start doing more stuff. Jumping pulse is nice. James Brown has a great free thing called Stuck, I think. These aren't really hypnosis, but once you get confortable with that, you can jump into more serious stuff.

Basically, knowing you're just testing the audience to look for the perfect participant gives you the confidence to try out your hypnosis. The coin bend is cool, because once you find the best participant, you place the bent coin in their hand and can try some stuff like heavy arm and sticking their hand to the table, etc. You won't be afraid to fail, as you know you've got an amazing ending to the trick.

I'm sure this will sound preposterous for some guys here. But that's honestly how I have done it for years and I get great reactions. Then again, in the eyes of my audience, I'm not THE HYPNOTIST, I'm just a magician... And I've never put someone into trance :P
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 10, 2018 01:10PM)
The point is to get the best and proper training, it needs to be done in person, reading books and watching videos are good only to a point. Coaching and/or training have so much more to experience hands-on and of course, the greatest benefit is someone is there to show you, teach you, tell you what you may be doing wrong or are doing incorrectly and for you to truly experience all aspects of it. Most hypnotists claim they have never experienced hypnosis themselves. This can also occur in live training.

And we are just talking (so far) about the basics of hypnosis itself. We haven't even gotten to how to properly and safely entertain with hypnosis or the business aspects of operating as a performance hypnotist.

Weekend training has become popular only due to those attending's time constraints. In my trainings and coaching, I can do a weekend session, a 30-day session, or it can be spread over 3-6 months.

And even after this actual training some of my students take me up on the "A day in the life/on the road with me" training where they actually travel with me and see the entire operation from the inside out. I have continuously been told this was the most beneficial and most thorough part of the training, from these they benefited and received the most.

In their minds, it is just theory or something that looks good on paper, but once they see it and experience it live themselves, it is an entirely different experience. They come out much more prepared and better rounded and equipped to pursue their own interests completely.

The one thing almost every performance hypnosis training event are missing is covering the business side. Success in hypnosis is attained in the business behind the show. After speaking at and hosting a training workshop at Mindvention last year and following the release of my last three entertainment business books, I have been receiving much interest in my lectures, workshops, and trainings. For the first time in decades, I will be speaking at a couple of hypnosis training events and conferences this year and next, because many are realizing this is a huge aspect that is missing from most training events and material. Many want to know how to run a performing business successfully, how to market, get bookings, produce tours, fundraisers, and work in both professional and consumer markets (both quite different) or have their own show or venue.

Again, much more to it than meets the eye and live is the best way to discover all of this and open your eyes to the true possibilities.

Plus there is so much crap out there today you need to learn from known, credible resources on a professional level.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 10, 2018 01:18PM)
Yeah Adrien L., that is all the pseudo or fake hypnosis that give real hypnosis and it's credibility a bad name. That is completely magician's thinking and lack of respect to the art and science of actual hypnosis. I applaud you for at least saying you are not a hypnotist and have never put anyone into a trance. Most magicians claiming to do hypnosis can actually believe they are doing so.

What you are talking about and real hypnosis training is not anywhere near the same thing. Also, suggestibility tests and sticking one's hand to a table is also not hypnosis (although it seems many in the UK get excited about this as if it is). People certainly wouldn't want to pay to see just that.
Message: Posted by: Adrien L. (Jan 10, 2018 01:25PM)
Exactly. I agree 100% with everything you said. And that's my point: there a very, very big difference between a "magician" doing "hypnosis" and an hypnotist. A magician can get away with "pseudo hypnosis" (same way he gets away with "pseudo magic"... since he's not doing real magic :P ).

The thing is: what does the OP want? Does he want to be a hypnotist, or stick peoples hand's to tables? Because that's "all" I want (and other pseudo stuff). And I never call it hypnosis. Is he asking what should be his next step in learning to be a hypnotist, or is he asking about how to incorporate a bit of what he already know into his MAGIC set?

[quote]On Jan 10, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
Yeah Adrien L., that is all the pseudo or fake hypnosis that give real hypnosis and it's credibility a bad name. That is completely magician's thinking and lack of respect to the art and science of actual hypnosis. I applaud you for at least saying you are not a hypnotist and have never put anyone into a trance. Most magicians claiming to do hypnosis can actually believe they are doing so.

What you are talking about and real hypnosis training is not anywhere near the same thing. Also, suggestibility tests and sticking one's hand to a table is also not hypnosis (although it seems many in the UK get excited about this as if it is). People certainly wouldn't want to pay to see just that. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 10, 2018 01:37PM)
[quote]On Jan 10, 2018, Adrien L. wrote:
The thing is: what does the OP want? Does he want to be a hypnotist, or stick peoples hand's to tables? [/quote]


That's the point of all of the responses here because he said he was interested in "making the jump to hypnosis." The insight and advice being offered is based on this.

Perhaps the question really is..does he REALLY want to get into hypnosis?

I cant imagine a guy that wants to become a surgeon but doesn't want to go to school or get the proper training. If he doesn't, he really doesn't want to become a surgeon.
Message: Posted by: Adrien L. (Jan 10, 2018 01:56PM)
Yep. On the other hand, an actor preparing for the role of a surgeon doesn't have to to to school or get the proper training.

[quote]On Jan 10, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
I cant imagine a guy that wants to become a surgeon but doesn't want to go to school or get the proper training. If he doesn't, he really doesn't want to become a surgeon. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 10, 2018 02:09PM)
I agree, but then he really wouldn't be a surgeon would he?
Message: Posted by: Adrien L. (Jan 10, 2018 02:14PM)
Absolutely not. But he might just want to be an actor :)

[quote]On Jan 10, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
I agree, but then he really wouldn't be a surgeon would he? [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 10, 2018 03:00PM)
But an actor does not claim to be a doctor.

But if all you want to do is play it it that is fine. But don't claim to be a hypnotist. The actor doesn't put MD after their name.

Don't make the claim. Also why bother to learn at all? There are so many ways to dress up crap as hypnosis and if done right it is passable. Why learn at all?

Just do it. Nobody really knows. Don't bother to learn it. There is no point. It will actually hold you back.
Message: Posted by: Rssudo (Jan 11, 2018 04:40AM)
I'm from the UK, and already aware of the laws surrounding hypnosis is the UK. The type of hypnosis I'm interested in learning is what's described by the master over here, Martin S Taylor, as "hypnotism without hypnosis" and with which he produces a full show.
I don't want to become a fully trained hypnotist. Partly because at this point in time I don't have the time or money, but also because you always need a local authority license to actually perform.
I want a small amount of experience in what you would consider to be real hypnosis, and a lot more in what you might consider pseudo-hypnosis, since it can add to aby mental magic act, and the real experience provides both confidences and anecdotes for patter.

Out of interest, would you consider reality is plastic to be real hypnosis or fake?
Message: Posted by: Rssudo (Jan 11, 2018 04:41AM)
And about being an actor, an actor tries to get genuine experience to play their party better
Message: Posted by: Adrien L. (Jan 11, 2018 04:56AM)
[quote]On Jan 11, 2018, Rssudo wrote:
I want a small amount of experience in what you would consider to be real hypnosis, and a lot more in what you might consider pseudo-hypnosis[/quote]

So I did assume correctly :)

IMHO, if that's your goal (which is the same as mine, btw) then just do it and don't think about what's "real" hypnosis and what's not. Do what works for you. Just don't call it hypnosis, because there are some implications to that. Again, this is just my opinion. Use your knowledge about hypnosis to improve your performance, but don't mention hypnosis.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 11, 2018 06:39AM)
There you go... just as suspected...he isn't truly interested in learning actual hypnosis, he is from the UK and of course Reality Is Plastic we knew would come up as his interested shortcut so he can do pretend hypnosis.

I agree with Adrien L., just don't call it hypnosis for the audience's sake (as well as your own).
'
Why is it no one from the UK ever really wants to truly learn actual true hypnosis, just some magic that looks like or can be passed off as hypnosis? It is the same thing every time.
Message: Posted by: Rssudo (Jan 11, 2018 03:52PM)
[quote]On Jan 11, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
Why is it no one from the UK ever really wants to truly learn actual true hypnosis, just some magic that looks like or can be passed off as hypnosis? It is the same thing every time. [/quote]

Most people from the UK who you're speaking about are interested in learning genuine hypnosis until they learn about the strict licensing laws. Because of the strict licensing laws regarding stage Hypnosis in the UK it makes it a lot harder to do feasibly. You can learn magic and show magic to friends to gain experience without having to get a license for each individual performance. The same is not true for hypnosis. Therefore a lot more is at risk to learn hypnosis in the UK, and practicing isn't viable until you're very good. Makes learning hard. The alternative is to learn the type performed by people such as Martin S Taylor. Then once you've learned that, you've got enough material that doesn't need licensing to start learning true hypnosis and that can be done whilst you're creating a name for yourself as a magician and mentalist, using your magic and Martin Taylor-esque hypnosis.

Not sure why it's such a confusing question as to why UK people don't want to learn the hypnosis as defined by the hypnotism act that they have to get a license from the council in order to practice...
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 11, 2018 04:03PM)
While you may believe this and accepted this it is really nonsense. The laws in the UK have been in effect for years and it has never prevented several generations of stage hypnotists there from learning and training properly. The laws would not be a deterrent for those truly interested in learning and pursuing hypnosis.

It is a magician's thing, and generational thing, and of course the whole Euro-style street/ambush thing, but what you are offering is just an excuse or justification for such belief (and magician's thinking).
Message: Posted by: Rssudo (Jan 11, 2018 05:01PM)
[quote]On Jan 11, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
While you may believe this and accepted this it is really nonsense. The laws in the UK have been in effect for years and it has never prevented several generations of stage hypnotists there from learning and training properly. The laws would not be a deterrent for those truly interested in learning and pursuing hypnosis.

It is a magician's thing, and generational thing, and of course the whole Euro-style street/ambush thing, but what you are offering is just an excuse or justification for such belief (and magician's thinking). [/quote]

Well they are a deterrent for me learning what you'd consider genuine stage Hypnosis...
Message: Posted by: mindmagic (Jan 12, 2018 04:26AM)
I'm in the UK and a qualified hypnotherapist, but I have never performed "stage hypnosis" or "street hypnosis". What I have done is to incorporate "waking hypnosis" (aka suggestibility tests) into mentalism performances, usually as a warm-up involving the whole audience. I have also used pseudo-hypnosis. It sounds to me that this is the kind of thing you're after.

"Reality is Plastic", by the way, is very definitely real hypnosis although it begins with suggestibility tests. There's a lot of common sense in the book. (I proofread the latest edition.)

Barry
Message: Posted by: NightSG (Jan 13, 2018 07:09PM)
[quote]On Jan 10, 2018, Adrien L. wrote:
Get proper training is kinda the default answer around here, isn't it?[/quote]

Yeah, and it takes all the fun out of learning. I mean, why not just practice on cab drivers in heavy traffic, large angry people in the bar and mentally unstable women until you get it right?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 13, 2018 08:10PM)
Lol. People don't come here to want to hear the truth and the realities, they come here to hear what they want to hear from others that support their own interests and beliefs.

This IS what happens when the kinda default answer is the truth.
Message: Posted by: Adrien L. (Jan 14, 2018 03:52AM)
[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, NightSG wrote:
Yeah, and it takes all the fun out of learning. I mean, why not just practice on cab drivers in heavy traffic, large angry people in the bar and mentally unstable women until you get it right? [/quote]

I don't think you got the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make was to avoid precisely what you did: you automatically assume that, if I don't want proper training, it means I'm practicing on cab drivers and unstable people? That's nice of you, thanks...

I am a magician. I am NOT an hypnotist, and I have not the proper training (I admit that I would love to and maybe one day I will). But, for now, I want to entertain people because that's what I get payed for. And having someone's hand stuck to a table or forgetting the card he picked is entertaining.

So, what if it's not "hypnosis"? It's what I want to do and I absolutely don't want my audiences to compare me with those lame guys swinging their pocket watches and having people behave like chickens in front of their friends.

So, if that's the goal of the OP, maybe the "truth" is different, no? If the only tool I have is an hammer, I'll treat every problem as a nail, right? :)
Message: Posted by: Rssudo (Jan 14, 2018 01:10PM)
[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Adrien L. wrote:
[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, NightSG wrote:
Yeah, and it takes all the fun out of learning. I mean, why not just practice on cab drivers in heavy traffic, large angry people in the bar and mentally unstable women until you get it right? [/quote]

I don't think you got the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make was to avoid precisely what you did: you automatically assume that, if I don't want proper training, it means I'm practicing on cab drivers and unstable people? That's nice of you, thanks...

I am a magician. I am NOT an hypnotist, and I have not the proper training (I admit that I would love to and maybe one day I will). But, for now, I want to entertain people because that's what I get payed for. And having someone's hand stuck to a table or forgetting the card he picked is entertaining.

So, what if it's not "hypnosis"? It's what I want to do and I absolutely don't want my audiences to compare me with those lame guys swinging their pocket watches and having people behave like chickens in front of their friends.

So, if that's the goal of the OP, maybe the "truth" is different, no? If the only tool I have is an hammer, I'll treat every problem as a nail, right? :) [/quote]

Put absolutely perfectly
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 14, 2018 01:16PM)
Then don't say you are serious about learning hypnosis when you really don't. The problem is you guys don't see the damage and false perceptions you leave the audience believing. Then they come to our shows thinking they have seen and know what hypnosis is and have to be told what they have been led to believe is wrong, which is why they aren't getting the results they may be interested in. You are perpetuating incorrect and false beliefs just so you can pretend to "add some hypnosis to your magic show." It's that "so what?' mentality that you are ignorant to and not understanding.
Message: Posted by: Rssudo (Jan 14, 2018 01:24PM)
[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
You are perpetuating incorrect and false beliefs just so you can pretend to "add some hypnosis to your magic show." It's that "so what?' mentality that you are ignorant to and not understanding. [/quote]

I also tell them I can read their mind, and have accurately predicted a chain of events. They could go to a psychic fair and see someone claim to do the same and look completely different. Nobody has a problem with magicians doing that do they?
Your argument is incoherent and doesn't make sense...
We're magicians and our job is to lie to people while making it entertaining.
Message: Posted by: Adrien L. (Jan 14, 2018 01:31PM)
I think you still don't get it... The OP didn't say he was "serious about learning hypnosis". It was you who assumed that and went for the "default answer".

Now, my advice for the OP was precisely to not use the word "hypnosis" in his performances because I (think I) truly understand the point you are trying to make. But he can still accomplish his goals, doing some amazing pseudo stuff, and entertain people...

That being said, I'm not sure how having someone's pulse jump from finger to finger by "magic", stick his feet on the floor or whatever, would do any arm to a hypnotist...

[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
Then don't say you are serious about learning hypnosis when you really don't. The problem is you guys don't see the damage and false perceptions you leave the audience believing. Then they come to our shows thinking they have seen and know what hypnosis is and have to be told what they have been led to believe is wrong, which is why they aren't getting the results they may be interested in. You are perpetuating incorrect and false beliefs just so you can pretend to "add some hypnosis to your magic show." [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 14, 2018 02:25PM)
[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Adrien L. wrote:
I think you still don't get it... The OP didn't say he was "serious about learning hypnosis". It was you who assumed that and went for the "default answer".[/quote]


This is exactly what he said, I didn;t assume anything...

"am looking to make the jump to hypnosis. I've read quite a few books on hypnosis, however haven't been able to get off the floor and successfully hypnotise..."

THEN, I even specifically asked to be sure and clarify, I didn't assume anything. We've been around here long enough to see where this thread was going from his very first post, which is why I specifically asked.

I agree with you completely with you he should not use the word "hypnosis" or even the implication at all.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 14, 2018 03:09PM)
I think it is funny that magicians want to act like they don't want make comments like "I absolutely don't want my audiences to compare me with those lame guys swinging their pocket watches and having people behave like chickens in front of their friends."

THEN they want to be thought of AS hypnotists by their audiences. Oh and they don't want to put in the heavy lifting to actually learn anything but still want to be thought of AS hypnotists as if they DO have the knowledge and have put in the time.

Much better to dress up a dopey card trick and think people buy the "I'm a hypnotist" bs line you try to feed them. Newsflash here guys. Audiences are not that dumb. They know the difference in a card trick and hypnosis.

My God if you don't want to be a hypnotist then the pretty obvious solution would be to not be a hypnotist wouldn't it? And I can't remember the last guy I saw use a watch or make anyone act like a chicken. But whatever. Why would you want to be such a bad thing as a hypnotist? It seems like it is just so bad a thing to you why bother?
Message: Posted by: Adrien L. (Jan 14, 2018 03:34PM)
You guys keep me questioning my english :)

I posted a few times on this thread and in each post I tried to convey the idea that I do NOT want to be seen as a hypnotist... Then you reply like I said the opposite.

Are you so confident in your own truth that you cannot fathom that someone might want different things in life than you? The problem in your answers is that you're assuming there are only two ways: your way or the wrong way. Hypnosis is a pretty vast universe. And it's obviously an attractive aesthetic for magicians. You are (or, at least, seem to be) massively more educated and experienced in the subject than I am, so your answers to people like me and the OP are very, very important, and you just tell him "get proper training (like the one I give ;) ) or don't do it at all". Hearing hat sort of thing from you guys was what kept me from even trying it when I started to get interested in this...

I believe there's a middle ground. There is something for entertainers to incorporate in their own work that will please them and their audiences. I am a big fan of Aaron Alexander's works, as well as Dr. Bill's JP and that kind of stuff that comes from the world of hypnosis, or at least seems to come, but is not hypnosis. The problem with these sort of things is, precisely, what you are saying: there's a tendency to call it hypnosis and that brings a series of implications to the table and I don't want to mess with that. I am absolutely not qualified to do so. So, I think a better answer for the OP would be "it's fine: do your little pseudo-hypnosis stunts, just don't call it hypnosis, because it's not. People will be amazed wether you call it one thing or another. If, on the other hand, you are really serious about it, then get the proper training".

I think we're basically all saying the same thing, right? :)

And that comment about the pocketwatch-swinging-hypnotist was just to be mean, sorry about that but I couldn't help myself :P

[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
I think it is funny that magicians want to act like they don't want make comments like "I absolutely don't want my audiences to compare me with those lame guys swinging their pocket watches and having people behave like chickens in front of their friends."

THEN they want to be thought of AS hypnotists by their audiences. Oh and they don't want to put in the heavy lifting to actually learn anything but still want to be thought of AS hypnotists as if they DO have the knowledge and have put in the time.

Much better to dress up a dopey card trick and think people buy the "I'm a hypnotist" bs line you try to feed them. Newsflash here guys. Audiences are not that dumb. They know the difference in a card trick and hypnosis.

My God if you don't want to be a hypnotist then the pretty obvious solution would be to not be a hypnotist wouldn't it? And I can't remember the last guy I saw use a watch or make anyone act like a chicken. But whatever. Why would you want to be such a bad thing as a hypnotist? It seems like it is just so bad a thing to you why bother? [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 14, 2018 03:53PM)
I have to admit I am questioning your comprehension of English.

When you talk crap just to be mean what is shocking when people react?

I don't think anything like mine is the only way. But do you believe there are wrong ways to do things?

Can you do me a favor and stop the emogies in posts? It is not 3rd grade where we get smiley faces on our homework.

And I think it is great what you "think a better answer to the OP" is. But don't you see the world as a place for different opinions or is it required that everyone says what you approve of only?

How about you post what you want and everyone will do the same?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 14, 2018 04:09PM)
[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Rssudo wrote:
[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
You are perpetuating incorrect and false beliefs just so you can pretend to "add some hypnosis to your magic show." It's that "so what?' mentality that you are ignorant to and not understanding. [/quote]

I also tell them I can read their mind, and have accurately predicted a chain of events. They could go to a psychic fair and see someone claim to do the same and look completely different. Nobody has a problem with magicians doing that do they?
Your argument is incoherent and doesn't make sense...
We're magicians and our job is to lie to people while making it entertaining. [/quote]


As a matter of fact, yes many do a problem with telling people you can read their minds. There are so many things you 've said in this post that are simply wrong and inaccurate.

Go to the mentalism forum (Penny) here, the underlying theme is that everyone there has a problem in making such claims, and yes, most of them, just like you are magicians, pretending to be mentalists too.

Being psychic is far different from the art and science of hypnosis. Two completely different things. Next is you lumping hypnosis in with psychic, mentalism and magic is another example of magician's thinking and perceptions but not at all reality. It is all fake, deception, non-real. Not at all the foundation of hypnosis.

The next thing you have wrong, is no, we are not all magicians here. That again would be your own perception, and assumption and incorrect.

I think all of this also goes to show the differences in how amateurs/enthusiasts and working professional so differently view this.

Nothing is incoherent. It is either hypnosis or it is not. Pretty black and white.

Adrien, just to clarify, no one is saying this with regard to you. We are all responding to the OP and the many magicians that come here sharing this exact same perception and belief.

Also, again to clarify, this is not about my own belief and my own truths. It is the reality. I have been coaching, training and teaching entertainers for over 30 years. One of the most important aspects in being a performer is having the right and proper foundation. These include beliefs, perceptions, understanding and most of all how audiences, clients, agents, bookers and others perceive us and accept our performances and the claims we make or imply in our performances. When one's beliefs and performing is based on a wonky, unrealistic or incorrect foundation, it only stands to reasons that everything built on that foundation will be problematic, weak and will eventually lead to problems or perhaps even crumble. So yes, there is much more to it than the shallow level magicians tend to see. I have seen and heard it all - "the audience doesn't know the difference" - they do. "It doesn't matter as long as its entertaining" - again it does, which is what some of us experience on a regular basis coming from the perceptions offered carelessly by magicians. Most magicians operate from a very "me" perspective, not always serving the greater picture.

In the end there are so many different aspects of magic available, one does not have to make a mockery or misrepresent hypnosis when there are many other options and themes to work with.

No one here is trying to "convince" anyone of anything but rather offer an understanding on a greater level that often seems to be missed form those "just wanting to add a little (fake) hypnosis to their show."
Message: Posted by: Adrien L. (Jan 14, 2018 04:19PM)
[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
I have to admit I am questioning your comprehension of English. [/quote]

That's nice. Thank you. Want to try it to have this conversation in my native tongue?

[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
When you talk crap just to be mean what is shocking when people react? [/quote]

I wasn't shocked by the replies to my crap talk. I was shocked that, after about half a dozen posts, you still didn't seem to notice I'm very against using the "I'm the hypnotist" line in my own work.

[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
I don't think anything like mine is the only way. But do you believe there are wrong ways to do things?[/quote]

Yes.

[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Can you do me a favor and stop the emogies in posts? It is not 3rd grade where we get smiley faces on our homework.[/quote]

Sure thing, Mr. Serious!

[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
And I think it is great what you "think a better answer to the OP" is. But don't you see the world as a place for different opinions or is it required that everyone says what you approve of only?[/quote]

Do you understand the difference between "I think this is" and "this is"? Do you understand the difference between "get proper training. Period" and "depends on what you want to do it and how you want to do it"?

[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
How about you post what you want and everyone will do the same? [/quote]

Ok, can I get back to using emogies (or emojis), then? ;)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 14, 2018 04:35PM)
And I can get back to not taking anything you say the least bit seriously.
Message: Posted by: Adrien L. (Jan 14, 2018 04:54PM)
Did you ever took anything I said seriously? I don't think so... I was just trying to bring a different point of view to the discussion, but you don't seem interested in discussing: you know better than me and you want to talk and not listen.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 14, 2018 05:45PM)
Yes. You being mean didn't stop conversation at all. It was totally everyone else.
Message: Posted by: Adrien L. (Jan 14, 2018 05:53PM)
When was I mean?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 14, 2018 06:22PM)
[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Adrien L. wrote:

And that comment about the pocketwatch-swinging-hypnotist was just to be mean, sorry about that but I couldn't help myself :P

[/quote]
Do you even read your own posts? How can you be taken seriously?
Message: Posted by: kevinuncanny (Jan 14, 2018 09:09PM)
<sigh> I really shouldn't step in here but.....

For the record: Did you know you don't have to be a Doctor to get sued for malpractice? All you have to do is misrepresent what you are doing or offering and you can get sued for malpractice.

Did you know if you say you are doing hypnosis it can lead people to having certain expectations from you and those expectations can get you into a lot of trouble when you present them falsely.

Hypnosis is a very specific term for something. To say you are doing hypnosis (trance work, etc)can lead you into a problematic situation if you are not actually trained to deal with it.

So yes, the PROFESSIONALS on this page recommend getting real life training. Not reading a book and picking the things you like out of it, but really learning.

Saddest to me is most hypnosis training cost less then an illusion and you can get an entire show out of it instead of 4 minutes.

Ok, that's my 2cents.
Message: Posted by: Adrien L. (Jan 15, 2018 02:50AM)
Yeah, that was the one and only mean comment on the whole thread, right? It wasn't even a reply to a meaner comment, right?

The guy to which the comment was addressed, the one that told me I was practicing hypnosis on unstable women wasn't mean at all. Neither you telling me what I do is crap... or telling me you think I don't understand english... or telling me I'm behaving like a 3rd grader...

Yeah, you're right... it was my comment, 20 posts above, that made the "conversation" stop...

Funny thing is the OP probably isn't even reading anymore... But I think I made my point clear and, since no one tried to show me my point of view is wrong, I'll assume I'm doing it right. So, what about we all behave like grown ups, and I apologize for being mean and just shut up?

[quote]On Jan 15, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Adrien L. wrote:

And that comment about the pocketwatch-swinging-hypnotist was just to be mean, sorry about that but I couldn't help myself :P

[/quote]
Do you even read your own posts? How can you be taken seriously? [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Rssudo (Jan 15, 2018 03:19AM)
[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
As a matter of fact, yes many do a problem with telling people you can read their minds. There are so many things you 've said in this post that are simply wrong and inaccurate.
[/quote]

So now you're saying that when a magician or mentalist forces a card and claims to divine it from 'reading the persons reaction' then the entire magic and mentalism community disapprove?
By that logic then reading someones thought from the ashes of burnt paper is wrong too. As would be a headline prediction since you're misleading your audience into believing you can genuinely predict the news. Allow me to quote 13 steps:
[quote]
The spectator is invited to think of a word and write it on a slip of paper. The paper is burnt and from the ashes the Mentalist reads the chosen word. (pp166)
[/quote]
Given how much credit 13 steps is given then of course misleading is acceptable.

[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
The next thing you have wrong, is no, we are not all magicians here. That again would be your own perception, and assumption and incorrect.
[/quote]
Apologies for lack of clarity here, by we I meant the collective body of magicians who perform what their audience want to see.
And the magicians job is to mislead and entertain. For example if I levitate a banknote/bill, I'm implying that I have telekinesis. Obviously I don't, but that's how magic works.

[quote]On Jan 14, 2018, Mindpro wrote:
In the end there are so many different aspects of magic available, one does not have to make a mockery or misrepresent hypnosis when there are many other options and themes to work with.
[/quote]
I'm not sure if in America you know of the likes of Derren Brown and Martin S Taylor? However another reason that's just come to mind as to why in the UK magicians want to learn a certain style of hypnosis and suggestion which you don't consider proper is that in the UK if people talk about hypnotists, the public think Derren Brown. In UK when people want to see a hypnotist they want to see the type of performance put on by Derren, which although mightn't fit your definition of hypnosis since its a mixture of sleight of hand, magic, mentalism and a small amount of hypnosis, that's what people want from the get go.

One last thing on Hypnosis found on the Café that supports my points.
[quote]On Sep 10, 2015, Stunninger wrote:
Richard says in the trailer, at 1:05, 'Imagine being able to hypnotize someone on the spot and give them the suggestion where they can't pull their hands apart or speak their own names. I'm going to teach you how to do that in this step.'

It's stated quite clearly the buyer will be taught how to hypnotize someone in this lesson. The ad doesn't say anything about 'fake magician hypnosis' or imply the buyer will be taught some type of pseudo hypnosis. No mention of that at all.

So why would a potential buyer be left with any impression other than they are going to learn how to hypnotize others?

I practiced and taught hypnosis for many years. One persistent fact remains: there is no clear, agreed upon definition of hypnosis. There is also no universally agreed upon set of criteria for determining if a person is hypnotized or not. The debate between 'state' and 'non-state' theories has never been resolved. Read any college Psych 100 text book and you will find this to be well documented.

What is hypnosis? How do you know if a person is actually hypnotized? Theories and opinions are plentiful. Many contradict one another. There are those adamant there is no such thing as hypnosis, and that any response which may be elicited with a formal hypnotic induction can also be elicited without any induction at all. There is some evidence to support this. Read 'They Call it Hypnosis' by Robert Baker, a researcher and university professor. One passage from the book:

"Strictly speaking, every time the word 'hypnosis' is used it could be placed in quotation marks. This is because there is no such thing as hypnosis. The point and purpose of this book is to convince the reader that the phenomenon called 'hypnosis' does not exist, has never existed in the past, and will not exist in the future. What is commonly called and referred to today as 'hypnosis' is a fallacy, that is, a false and mistaken idea handed down from generation to generation..."

Kreskin has said this for years.

Martin Taylor has performed a complete show of 'Hypnotism without Hypnosis' for many years. He elicits all of the same responses from his volunteers as stage hypnotists do, but without the use of any hypnotic induction.

I know, I know, this thread is not about the debate of does hypnosis exist or not, it's about Richard Osterlind's Penguin download. The points above are made for a reason. There are those who firmly, deeply believe that to learn hypnosis requires much more than a 33 minute download from Penguin Magic, that a full course of instruction is needed, lasting many weeks or months. Well, they can, and are going to, believe what they want, of course.

However, there are many others who disagree, and believe there's really not that much to learning how to hypnotize, and are quite comfortable teaching the entire process in 30 minutes. I could easily teach one definition of hypnosis, how to do suggestibility testing, and a hypnotic induction in under 15 minutes, and then demonstrate the elicitation of 'hypnotic phenomena' for another 15. Easy.

I'm not interested in trying to change anyone's mind. Believe what you want.

I'm not interested in debating anyone. This will be my only post in this thread.

The field of hypnosis is quite controversial. There are almost as many different definitions of hypnosis as their are hypnotists. There are many different ways to explore and begin learning. Robert Baker's book would be one really good place to start. [/quote]
(http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?forum=303&topic=597593#10)
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 15, 2018 08:36AM)
There is far more than that which supports your position.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 15, 2018 10:53AM)
And it is not a certain style of hypnosis. It is not hypnosis at all.

The problem is you want to make up definitions. Why not go to the magic section and learn all sorts of ways to dress up magic tricks as hypnosis?

Kevin is right about what he posted.
Message: Posted by: Chris Meece (Jan 18, 2018 09:18AM)
Usual suspects here again, no wonder this sub forum is dead. I do learn from many of their posts, but I am surprised anyone comes back here due to their abrasiveness. And I would love to get in person/formal training; but that isn't in the cards right now for this rural Kentucky boy. I did exactly what was criticized on this thread, I went up to complete strangers and learned how to hypnotize. Best thing I could have done; I wasn't progressing continually pouring over my materials. I used mostly Anthony Jacquin's materials and some of James Tripp's work. (Big fan of James Brown's work too ... he does a lot more magic than hypnosis, though.)

I detailed my experiences here:

[url]http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=403388&forum=22&27[/url]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 18, 2018 09:40AM)
So I assume Kevin is now one of the usual suspects because he agrees with us?
Message: Posted by: Rssudo (Jan 18, 2018 01:26PM)
[quote]On Jan 18, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
So I assume Kevin is now one of the usual suspects because he agrees with us? [/quote]
Man you're just being stupid for no reason at all now... You're opinion isn't defo the law mate 😂
Different people hold different opinions, and if someone asks a question you don't talk about how they're ruining your career by asking the question or about why you don't think they should ask, you either make an answer or you keep your mouth shut
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Jan 18, 2018 01:41PM)
I'm being stupid?

Please quote for me where I said anyone ruined my career or affected it in any way. Show me where I said not to ask a question.

I asked if Kevin was now one of the usual suspects. According to your own post either make an answer or keep your mouth shut.
Message: Posted by: Senor Fabuloso (Feb 16, 2018 01:49PM)
It's been almost a month since a post has been made in this thread and as a general observation it seems that there are a few bullies here/ That's not a judgment but an observation. Why can't an exchange of ideas be a respected communication value? Is the subject of hypnosis to be dominated by one or two people on the Café? It just seems so counter to the mandate of the site and intellectual exchange.

Threads stop when comment get personal instead of cerebral and I hope members will keep talking about the topics and not get pulled into these useless tit for tat moments.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 16, 2018 02:53PM)
Like when you stalk members to other sections just to argue and insult?
Message: Posted by: Senor Fabuloso (Feb 16, 2018 03:22PM)
[quote]On Feb 16, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Like when you stalk members to other sections just to argue and insult? [/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 16, 2018 03:38PM)
Https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect?wprov=sfia1

I guess this is closer to you.
Message: Posted by: Senor Fabuloso (Feb 16, 2018 04:12PM)
Anything to keep your name on the index page huh? It must be hard having only your opinion of yourself to stroke your ego? It's OK. Your going to be fine. I'll pray for you. God Speed.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 16, 2018 04:25PM)
That 16 hours of hypnotherapy training really makes you think you are a psychologist doesn't it?
Message: Posted by: Senor Fabuloso (Feb 17, 2018 03:39AM)
You insist on trying to provoke me with false information and nonadherence to the topic of the thread. Why? I have said that I'd pray for you. Are you offended that a Christian would concern himself with your well being? Must you be negative in the light of good will? Are you so dark that the most you have to offer is nastiness? I feel so sorry for you. God please bring positivity and love to Danny. Change his heart from the cold place it is to a warm and loving place. Make him more amenable to others while finding your love within him. This I pray in Jesus name Amen.