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Topic: Am I the only one bothered by Vic's latest acquisitions?
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Apr 6, 2018 05:21PM)
I received an e-mail from Gemini Artifacts today saying they have acquired the rights of:
Carnie Tarot
Carnie Cursed Tarot
Dark Dawn Tarot
Four Corners Tarot
Hobbs Alphabet Deck
Homicide Trilogy (US/UK)
Kioku
Sanctum II
Sanctum 4
Witches Almanac
Le Petite Flour Tarot
Room Service 1943
Room Service 1944
Reflections

I have a problem with this for a few reasons:

First, some of these were bought as limited editions of only 150 copies and a reprint will violate these original conditions of purchase.

Second, how were these acquired? To my knowledge Rick does not have the rights to sell the artwork of others who originally drew some of these effects. Where else could the deal have been done? As much problem as we have had with Rick, I hope Vic isn't dealing with him. And, doubt he has the rights to the artwork acquired.

Third, this seems a bit underhanded to me and not what I expected of Gemini Artifacts or Vic. How can you acquire an artist's work without the artist's consent? I would like an explanation as to how this is ethical, even if legal.

I have sent my concerns by e-mail to Vic and maybe he will answer these concerns. Perhaps it doesn't concern others. but this announcement concerns me as a collector of these items. He says he will not release any of the limited editions; then why list them as an acquisition?

Weepin' Willie
Message: Posted by: Winks (Apr 6, 2018 05:26PM)
No, you are not the only one. I am bothered too and for the same reasons.
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Apr 6, 2018 07:02PM)
[quote]On Apr 6, 2018, weepinwil wrote:
He says he will not release any of the limited editions; then why list them as an acquisition?

Weepin' Willie [/quote]
So Outlaw can't?
So people won't buy from Outlaw?
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Apr 6, 2018 07:08PM)
[quote]On Apr 6, 2018, the Sponge wrote:
[quote]On Apr 6, 2018, weepinwil wrote:
He says he will not release any of the limited editions; then why list them as an acquisition?

Weepin' Willie [/quote]
So Outlaw can't?
So people won't buy from Outlaw? [/quote]

Right!
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Apr 6, 2018 07:10PM)
Heard from Vic, basically it isn't any of my business, but he did try to explain, although a bit sarcastic and defensive. Said I was the only e-mail that wasn't congratulatory. If that is the case, I am a bit disenchanted with my spookie friends. As an ignorant and foolish woman once said, "Everyone has to sit on their own pot!" I have done that and unsubscribed from the Gemini Artifact website. Very disappointed. Wish Vic the best in his new acquisitions but not going to be a participant. However, if the original artist can benefit from the agreement than I am for that.
Message: Posted by: R. Steiner (Apr 6, 2018 07:48PM)
Hi Willie,
I do understand your frustration, but it would seem to me your frustration should lie exclusively with Outlaw. Outlaw is the one who said the editions would be limited. Would that transfer over to a new holder of the rights to release them? I am not certain. I know I purchased a set of the full Carnie deck from Outlaw about 18 months ago and the COA was an absurdly low number - mid-teens, if I recall. It may well be that Rick was in his integrity with the sale of the rights (assuming there was some financial transaction - of which I have no clue and this is pure speculation) and Vic agreed to not release more than a specific number to honor Rick's original 'collector's item' pieces.
Even if Vic were to release many more of the pieces that were Outlaw collector's pieces, it may well be within his right to do so.
I am sorry you feel like this is not an upright act. Vic has shown himself to be an individual of integrity within our community.
Peace to you,
RS
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Apr 6, 2018 07:57PM)
[quote]On Apr 6, 2018, R. Steiner wrote:
Hi Willie,
I do understand your frustration, but it would seem to me your frustration should lie exclusively with Outlaw. Outlaw is the one who said the editions would be limited. Would that transfer over to a new holder of the rights to release them? I am not certain. I know I purchased a set of the full Carnie deck from Outlaw about 18 months ago and the COA was an absurdly low number - mid-teens, if I recall. It may well be that Rick was in his integrity with the sale of the rights (assuming there was some financial transaction - of which I have no clue and this is pure speculation) and Vic agreed to not release more than a specific number to honor Rick's original 'collector's item' pieces.
Even if Vic were to release many more of the pieces that were Outlaw collector's pieces, it may well be within his right to do so.
I am sorry you feel like this is not an upright act. Vic has shown himself to be an individual of integrity within our community.
Peace to you,
RS [/quote

So begins the rationalization.
Message: Posted by: Wizard of Oz (Apr 6, 2018 08:21PM)
For whatever it's worth, I now see none of the aforementioned props offered on Outlaw Effects' website.
Message: Posted by: Vic Nadata (Apr 6, 2018 08:30PM)
Willie, I feel I explained to you personally and privately my thoughts on the limited edition items. I don't know how more clear I could have been. I told you I would not release any limited editions. I also explained why I listed them on the newsletter as well.

But for all others, here it is.

I will NOT. repeat NOT release any limited items. There will not be 100 more dark dawn floating around. What is out is out. PERIOD.

So why purchase them? The Sponge hit the nail on the head. So not another person would be scammed or ripped off. Those items are removed from the Outlaw site and there is no way to purchase them. Will some of the items listed be coming? Of course. Some of the ones I purchased were my own creations. But as I have stated earlier, the limited edition items will NOT be re-released.

I hope that clears up some confusion.
Message: Posted by: Winks (Apr 6, 2018 08:33PM)
Thanks, Vic, That was my concern, and you answered it.
Message: Posted by: Wizard of Oz (Apr 6, 2018 09:02PM)
Thanks Vic. Not sure of the wrangling that's happening on your end to make these arduous changes, but the hard work should benefit all in the end...ensuring limited items remain limited, and props with potential keep their potential. Not a bad way to end up.
Message: Posted by: Caveman (Apr 6, 2018 09:53PM)
Willie, I had the same concerns, as I'm a collector too. When I saw the DDT on the list I freaked out a little, and was going to write Gemini until I thought maybe the Cafť would have all my questions answered. Sure enough....thanks Vic for putting up that explanation, it's all I needed to hear. And, for the record, I'm psyched that some of the non limited release items will live on.
Message: Posted by: Pasteboard Alchemist (Apr 6, 2018 10:55PM)
Itís a shame that got cleared up so fast. I was looking forward to more wild, uninformed, baseless accusations.
Message: Posted by: Bogbadger (Apr 7, 2018 02:15AM)
Sorted within 6 hours, typical bl***y Gemini customer service from Vic! What's the world coming to when people go out of their way to do the right thing, then answer questions succinctly and quickly and stop the good folk of the Magic Cafť Forum having an excuse to rant on about something for twelve months!

(note: the above is an attempt at sarcastic humour and not intended to be taken as a serious complaint under any circumstances)

Well done Vic for getting these items into your safe hands. This must have taken a lot of hard work and I am sure is very much appreciated by the vast majority of those who have followed the trials and tribulations of Outlaw over the years.
Message: Posted by: Pascal974 (Apr 7, 2018 02:51AM)
Which items, besides DDT, were limited editions and therefore will not be released by Gemini Artifacts ?
Message: Posted by: PROF BC (Apr 7, 2018 07:03AM)
What some may not realize, and Vic is far too modest to expand upon, is that Vic did a lot of the heavy lifting for Outlaw. When he says that a lot of these items were his own creations, he's revealing only the tip of the iceberg. At least since the time of LUNA, Vic has been doing yeoman's service behind the scenes. If Outlaw needed art work done--Vic did it. Who was keeping up the Outlaw website when Outlaw itself couldn't or wouldn't? Vic again. Who was working behind the scenes for years trying to keep the Outlaw ship afloat? That was Vic. Vic believed in the product for a very *very* long time after it became clear that the business was not being properly run.

I cut all ties with Outlaw and jumped to Lebanon (blessed Lebanon!), but Vic--who has a stronger, purer belief in humanity than I--continued buying RR's excuses and stayed on board, frantically bailing Outlaw's foundering ship, hoping he could keep it afloat while RR kept promising to get it into the shipyard for repairs. He invented, designed, built, and worked into many late nights and over uncounted weekends because he believed in keeping a going concern going. In his decent and good heart he refused to believe that RR could be doing many of the things that it now comes to light he was doing. Never mind Vic himself was almost never compensated for his own work during this time. If you have been cheated by Outlaw, Vic was hit too--hard and often--usually because he was told that he was helping the other Outlaw customers (you) by not taking product/payment for his own work 'while Outlaw found its feet again'. Vic bought high-end items that he still has not received. Vic put in hundreds (if not thousands) of hours for which he was promised compensation that never came, refusing to believe that RR could cheat him or anyone else. RR simply had a custom-made line of guff for Vic, and it played into Vic's desire to assist the community and help the business.

I spent I do not know how many sessions trying to convince Vic to get away from Outlaw, that it would only bring him down, but Vic persisted long after anyone else would--or did. Why? Vic truly believes in this community and genuinely supports the Outlaw product line (not the Outlaw business model). It took a lot for Vic to step away and start Gemini--a lot of heartache to realize that someone could treat him the way RR had, and a huge amount of gumption and personal capital as well.

I was therefore deeply sorry to see an attack leveled against him on this. If you only knew how hard Vic fought--is still fighting--to make Gemini what Outlaw should have been, to wrest LUNA from Outlaw (Vic is more responsible than anyone for LUNA ever being produced as a trilogy--though I like to take my little bows for helping out with LUNA, Vic was the moving force behind getting the original trilogy put together and out there). Buying up/out this Outlaw stock is just another step in Vic's years-long attempt to rescue what was good about Outlaw whilst cutting away the putrid parts of a blameworthy, fetid business practice.

Vic is about the last person I know who would stab a fellow in the back, cheat a customer, or even disappoint a fellow being. There is, in fact, so much good in him that, for years, he found it nearly impossible to see the bad in RR.

Please accept my apology if I seem to condescend or rebuke; such is not my intention, but I will not, cannot, sit by and watch a good man criticized or cast into suspicious light for actions that should be winning him thanks and congratulations.

He is saving some things you treasure at a not-insignificant personal cost to himself. How about showing some love for that?

Thank you, Vic. I appreciate it--and you.

BC
Message: Posted by: Bogbadger (Apr 7, 2018 07:15AM)
Well spoken Prof B.C.

I for one will be clicking the PayPal button to support Vic and purchase more high quality, beautifully crafted effects from Gemini until hell freezes over (or my wife finds my credit card bill)
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Apr 7, 2018 08:52AM)
Professor BC,

I had asked the moderators to remove this post because I knew what was going to happen. You question something and you are the bad guy. The mods haven't done so at this time.
Message: Posted by: PROF BC (Apr 7, 2018 09:35AM)
You are not the bad guy, Wils. You have a legitimate question and concern. I have insider background knowledge relevant to the issue and am very happy finally to have the opportunity to tell this community what a fine human being we have in Vic Nadata.

BC
Message: Posted by: topherhester (Apr 7, 2018 10:14AM)
I could care less about limited editions of things. Iím a performer. Not a collector. And a limited edition of something like the dark dawn tarot (maybe Iím still bitter bc They sold out before I was in the bizarre game) is only valuable to a fellow bizarre performer which really limits the value in my opinion. We do such a niche thing, the laymen arenít going to care or know if somethings limited edition with a COA. Tarot cards are tarot cards to an outsider. Now would I love to have a dark dawn tarot or carnie? For performing sake, yes, bc they look great but I think the argument of ďdonít do more bc it will make the ones I own less valuableĒ is a little unreasonable. Will 100 more really make your copy insignificant? Just my opinion. Are we hoarders of limited items or performers? Iíd rather be a performer. I donít care if some other people in this genre have a few of the same effects. Bizarre performers are so rare in an already small performing art that I doubt Iíll cross paths with a spectator who says ďoh the magician last night had that bookĒ when I bring out Or@culum or something.

I would much rather someone like Gemini Artificacts and Vic have the rights and continue to produce items reliably, ethically, and consistently. I was almost burned by Rick, had Tim wisseman not circumvented Rick and overnighted me a Hobbs box the day before a show. And I know Vic had a hand in the success of those items originally so this isnít a pulling of the rug from under outlaw. I consider this as outlaw has cut ties with Rick...
Message: Posted by: topherhester (Apr 7, 2018 10:16AM)
And now that I know dark dawn tarot isnít one on the list being remade, someone sell me a reasonably priced copy! (That was the one I was most excited about when I got the email...)

Oh well. Maybe GA will still produce le Petite Flour, RS44, Hobbs alphabet, WA, and Carnie tarot which are all on my list.
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Apr 7, 2018 12:16PM)
I'm not sure why anyone would be upset with GA for taking the high road on this issue. I cut ties with outlaw a long time ago and always look forward to the news from GA and Lebanon.But like topherhester articulated, the collector value is a minor issue for me as well. In fact, there are several items I truly wish were available beyond the limited edition because I am concerned about eventually wearing them out and needing to replace them due to normal wear and tear. I don't know what I'd do if someone ever tore or broke an item by accident or my luggage got lost. They are irreplaceable, by design. That can be a good and a bad thing. I for one want to thank Vic for his efforts.
Message: Posted by: topherhester (Apr 7, 2018 01:28PM)
Good point pizpor! I hate buying something that Iím afraid to use in performance for fear of wearing out or breaking.
Message: Posted by: atouchofmagic1 (Apr 7, 2018 02:53PM)
[quote]On Apr 7, 2018, topherhester wrote:
I could care less about limited editions of things. Iím a performer. Not a collector. [/quote]

I have to agree here, as someone who was always fascinated by this genre of the art but didn't get into it until recently it sucks knowing I missed out on certain items. I understand from a collectors standpoint of wanting something exclusive but what does that matter to an audience? As someone who was able to get a copy of the new updated Lun@ I honestly didn't care about the COA or the fact its a limited edition I care about the effect and story that can be told.

I applaud Vic for his customer service and doing business the way he does. RR on the other hand promised me the world as long as I sent money via Friends and Family.

Just my 2 cents.


-Bob
Message: Posted by: atouchofmagic1 (Apr 7, 2018 02:59PM)
Just to clarify on my above post. This was in regards to the Lun@ trilogy and a copy of Ash. RR gave offered me a substantial deal but only if I paid via F&F which I declined. When Vic came out with the new edition I jumped on board and was very satisfied. Now just to hunt down a copy of Ash 😏
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Apr 7, 2018 03:16PM)
Maybe some of these items could be released in a Collectors as well as a Performers edition. Just a thought.
Message: Posted by: Philemon Vanderbeck (Apr 7, 2018 04:52PM)
The prices alone are going to make these limited editions, when you think about it.
Message: Posted by: Wizard of Oz (Apr 7, 2018 09:48PM)
[quote]On Apr 7, 2018, Pizpor wrote:
Maybe some of these items could be released in a Collectors as well as a Performers edition. Just a thought. [/quote]

Pizpor is right, and it's my thought as well. There have been many releases of mainstream magic props in the past, as well as bizarre items as well, which cater to the collector. These may take the shape of special packages, finishes, added routines, added effects...the list goes on. It's not a new idea, but it works. However, these limited editions - when they have a partner product also for sale at a more reasonable, worker-friendly price - are the perfect offering for collectors and performers.
Message: Posted by: Pascal974 (Apr 8, 2018 03:42AM)
[quote]On Apr 8, 2018, Wizard of Oz wrote:

However, these limited editions - when they have a partner product also for sale at a more reasonable, worker-friendly price - are the perfect offering for collectors and performers. [/quote]

I fully agree with you.
Furthermore, less than two years ago, I bought DDT and FCT, and I felt that the quality of the cards I received was not great, the drawings on some cards were barely visible. It was not quite what I expected, far from the beauty of the pictures found here and there and far from the quality of the CT bought some years before and received in a box with a COA.
So, the idea of having these items produced by someone like Vic appealed to me.
Message: Posted by: Vic Nadata (Apr 8, 2018 08:00AM)
Without going into the details, when I acquired the items, it was part of a large package deal. Properties were being taken in and out of the deal all the time. The final list is what you see. These are others that I have received over the past year as well. Spiritas, Forever Doll and DeadWood to name a few. These items were to cover Outlaws personal debts. I accepted the deal, and here we are today.

Two of the items I thought were limited. DDT and Four Corners. So in my mind these were not really a viable product to release. I knew this from the start. I of course asked Outlaw to confirm that they were his properties to sell, and he did. My thought at the time was that I knew I would not release decks. I, like most of you, have a set with a COA that I value. My goal was never to take away from what WE have but to add to it. A box or something small perhaps.

I have talked with Cody S about this and he confirmed as I feared that it was not Outlaws to sell. Same with four corners. In short Gemini will not produce any extras for these sets. They are rightfully in the hands of the correct owner and off the Outlaw website and not for sale. It might have cost me a few $$, but I call that a win in my book. Cody S. got totally ripped off in his past deals. We might be releasing the Four Corners as that was not a limited edition. It is totally up to Cody as to what he wants to do with his property.

The other limited edition I recently just found out about was a Carnie Elite deck. I did not even know that existed. That was limited to 150 units. Who really knows and can trust what the COA says on those, but to be fair those wont come out as well. The standard Carnie (Majors) will be coming out.

I did make a mistake with the newsletter. My goal was to make more of a public service announcement. Epic failure on my part. I see a lot of new guys joining the ranks that simply do not know the history that most of us already do. I wanted those guys to know where they could possibly get some items, but more importantly where they CANT get them. One of the major parts of the deal was that they needed to be removed from the Outlaw website. I had to do this personally. So for that I do apologize.

I hope that clears up some confusion.

Thanks for your continued support for Gemini Artifacts
Message: Posted by: greerj (Apr 8, 2018 09:03AM)
I totally understood Will's and others concerns about re-releasing limited editions, and also understand and appreciate Vic's take on the subject. I am glad this was cleared up. It sounds like Gemini is doing the right thing and growing in leaps and bounds. Thank you Vic for your explanation and I'm sure we all look forward to seeing what the future holds for Gemini and the bizarre community.
Message: Posted by: RCP (Apr 8, 2018 07:47PM)
Ha ha ha, really? 150 limited releases of what? paper cards? books? in a world of 7 billion people a bit of pompousness and show over what? Vic release what you want and when you want, I think another 150 copies want have any meaningful effect and does what rick said hold any power over anyone? Since most of ricks'works belonged to someone else the creators should determine what happens to their creations.
Message: Posted by: RCP (Apr 8, 2018 07:55PM)
Not to beat a dead horse but does anyone really think any cards outlaw put out is collectible? I could produce a 1000 sets tonight and sell them on ebay with a fake coa. There are millions of dollars of fake baseball card. Please don't think any outlaw card is a valued collectible...................
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Apr 9, 2018 04:55AM)
Thatís exactly how the Chinese view magic dvds. Rip them off and sell them cheap on EBay. A fantastic disincentive for creative people.
Message: Posted by: RCP (Apr 9, 2018 08:35AM)
[quote]On Apr 9, 2018, Pizpor wrote:
Thatís exactly how the Chinese view magic dvds. Rip them off and sell them cheap on EBay. A fantastic disincentive for creative people. [/quote]
It's the view of anyone that deals in counterfeit products. They could careless about creative incentive. Knowing Ricks past he probably sold more copies than advertised anyway.

I will accept whatever Vic and his creators decide to do with their creations. The argument that it decreases the value of anthers purchase doesn't fit this situation.
Message: Posted by: Pizpor (Apr 9, 2018 10:10AM)
Iím not sure about that. The thing that decreases the value of something is an abundant supply. So when you advocate for Vic to produce as many copies as he wants, then the value declines. And Iím not trying to say that any of the Outlaw products are collectibles. But none the less, a limited supply means the item will hold value. Take Dopps for example. They routinely go for about double the original list price. I donít deal with counterfeit products, so I canít appreciate your point of view. I try very hard to support artists and their work. Iím sure others here share that point of view.
Message: Posted by: Delimbeau (Apr 9, 2018 10:30AM)
Https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
Message: Posted by: RCP (Apr 9, 2018 12:32PM)
Dopps or one of ricks cards? No comparison in workmanship, effort, difficulty in counterfeiting or resale value. Rick made the promise not Vic or Cody or whoever else created the product. The reality is what you bought from rick is a counterfeit because he stole them from the creators and never paid them for their work.

Your beef is with Rick and not them.

I am glad you don't deal in counterfeit products knowingly but I bet you unknowingly have bought them and will again.
Message: Posted by: Sir (Apr 9, 2018 11:57PM)
I believe there is more to it than just limiting the number of effects produced. A businessman gives his word and that should factor heavily into the equation. Sure, some folks are just trick collectors (nothing wrong with that), but others buy effects as an investment in their business. They are making the choice to purchase from a certain vendor because that vendor can offer the added value of exclusivity. A breech of that agreement is serious.

Vic made a financial move in an attempt to preserve the exclusivity of some effects. Seems of all the possible outcomes, this was a pretty decent way to go.
Message: Posted by: Christopher Gould (Apr 10, 2018 07:16AM)
I just want to throw my hat into the ring here.

Since moving Alchemy Moon over to Vic's expert care, I can testify directly that he simply has more integrity than anyone else I have met or had dealings with in magic. That this should come into question is frankly 'bizarre'.

I have been aware from some years now just how much one bad apple can taint the whole crop. Every order that I sent out (to customers that were not regulars) was accompanied by a high level of anxiety. People here have been so accustomed to being treated badly, and many have wittingly, or unwittingly supported these practices. In the end the sewer door burst open and the dealers that *really* do not deserve to be questioned get in the firing line.

Now is a time for cleansing and frankly, Vic is the guy with the bucket and mop. I talk to Vic frequently, and I know first hand what his motivations are here, and these motivations are of the highest order. This clean up operation is costing him serious money and what he is doing for the community here is frankly as generous as it is remarkable.

It is now time to put our house into order. As things stand at the moment, the 'troubling' dealers have reaped the rewards for their appalling business models. We are (as far as I can see) left with a situation that we have not had for any years: Honest dealers and honest creators. This is something that we should nurture, not attempt to bring into disrepute.

I totally understand the legacy that come with 'limited editions'. I am guilty of producing these myself (out of exhaustion, rather than as a sales ploy). But this is not as black and white as it may first seem - how much trust did people *really* put into this concept when applied to certain dealers anyhow? If an intellectual property is bought from one dealer (who may have *said* that it was a limited edition) and is now held by another, how does this change the situation? If you buy an intellectual property, you then own it and (as far as I understand) are free to do as you wish with it - regardless of any promises made by the previous vendor. In a broader context - does the very concept of 'limited editions' positively or negatively impact the art in the long term? There are valid arguments to be made from both angles.

As to Vic's handling of the original creators - man, how is there even a question about this? I handed Sanctum over to RR (a story as long as it is uninteresting) many years ago. The first thing Vic did was contact me to GIVE me the IP back - remember, an IP that I did not even own in the first place. So, I will be working on something I have held back on for many, many years - a final Sanctum. I really hope that Vic makes some cash on this. *This* will be the way that all creators that were caught in the mess with Outlaw will now be feeling. Does anyone here suppose for a single moment that any of these creators will feel anything other than relief that someone with such an impeccable reputation will now be handling affairs?

There is a hatchet to be buried here; one that was not forged by any of the dealers who are currently in operation. I would like to see everyone cut Vic some slack here - I know directly how much this cost (and I am not talking just money here!) and I think we should all be a little lenient with this investment. It is also a time to bury the past and look to the future. It is my sincere hope that all those who have been wronged in the past find a legal settlement to their disputes. Then it is time to move on - time to once again celebrate the creative minds and good business practices that are now the norm, rather than the exception.

[Disclaimer - Vic has no idea that I am writing this, or what the content is - I speak for myself and (I would hope) for all creators and members of community who want to see us now move forward.]
Message: Posted by: burgerinc (Apr 10, 2018 11:53AM)
It's sad though that Rick should sell these when he hasn't fulfilled his responsibilities for these items. I don't blame Vic but Rick owes me some of these besides as I previously stated that he offered the booktest rights to me. Awful human being.
Message: Posted by: RCP (Apr 10, 2018 08:58PM)
[quote]On Apr 10, 2018, Christopher Gould wrote:
I just want to throw my hat into the ring here.

Since moving Alchemy Moon over to Vic's expert care, I can testify directly that he simply has more integrity than anyone else I have met or had dealings with in magic. That this should come into question is frankly 'bizarre'.

I have been aware from some years now just how much one bad apple can taint the whole crop. Every order that I sent out (to customers that were not regulars) was accompanied by a high level of anxiety. People here have been so accustomed to being treated badly, and many have wittingly, or unwittingly supported these practices. In the end the sewer door burst open and the dealers that *really* do not deserve to be questioned get in the firing line.

Now is a time for cleansing and frankly, Vic is the guy with the bucket and mop. I talk to Vic frequently, and I know first hand what his motivations are here, and these motivations are of the highest order. This clean up operation is costing him serious money and what he is doing for the community here is frankly as generous as it is remarkable.

It is now time to put our house into order. As things stand at the moment, the 'troubling' dealers have reaped the rewards for their appalling business models. We are (as far as I can see) left with a situation that we have not had for any years: Honest dealers and honest creators. This is something that we should nurture, not attempt to bring into disrepute.

I totally understand the legacy that come with 'limited editions'. I am guilty of producing these myself (out of exhaustion, rather than as a sales ploy). But this is not as black and white as it may first seem - how much trust did people *really* put into this concept when applied to certain dealers anyhow? If an intellectual property is bought from one dealer (who may have *said* that it was a limited edition) and is now held by another, how does this change the situation? If you buy an intellectual property, you then own it and (as far as I understand) are free to do as you wish with it - regardless of any promises made by the previous vendor. In a broader context - does the very concept of 'limited editions' positively or negatively impact the art in the long term? There are valid arguments to be made from both angles.

As to Vic's handling of the original creators - man, how is there even a question about this? I handed Sanctum over to RR (a story as long as it is uninteresting) many years ago. The first thing Vic did was contact me to GIVE me the IP back - remember, an IP that I did not even own in the first place. So, I will be working on something I have held back on for many, many years - a final Sanctum. I really hope that Vic makes some cash on this. *This* will be the way that all creators that were caught in the mess with Outlaw will now be feeling. Does anyone here suppose for a single moment that any of these creators will feel anything other than relief that someone with such an impeccable reputation will now be handling affairs?

There is a hatchet to be buried here; one that was not forged by any of the dealers who are currently in operation. I would like to see everyone cut Vic some slack here - I know directly how much this cost (and I am not talking just money here!) and I think we should all be a little lenient with this investment. It is also a time to bury the past and look to the future. It is my sincere hope that all those who have been wronged in the past find a legal settlement to their disputes. Then it is time to move on - time to once again celebrate the creative minds and good business practices that are now the norm, rather than the exception.

[Disclaimer - Vic has no idea that I am writing this, or what the content is - I speak for myself and (I would hope) for all creators and members of community who want to see us now move forward.] [/quote]

BRAVO! Christopher, eloquently written. Vic (other creators) have a zero, none, nadda obligation to uphold lies told by Rick. If they chose to do so it is out of a total dedication to the community and you should support them. I deal only with the current dealers. Vic Nadata, Bill Montana, and Dan Baines.
Message: Posted by: Al Desmond (Apr 10, 2018 09:13PM)
I want to throw my hat in the ring in regards to Vic's integrity.

I have been part of the Gemini product line for about seven months now, with my selection of cribs for his popular book tests.

He's been very fair about the pricing, he made very fair arrangements in regards to what he pays me and what he keeps and he pays almost as fast as he makes a sale.

In regards to RCP's opinion on collectibles, I don't think the value of an item has anything to do with the fact that there are millions of people out there.

There are not millions of bizarre performers and we like to keep these treasures to ourselves.

The value is in what we give the prop, and has no bearing on the open market.
Message: Posted by: burgerinc (Apr 10, 2018 09:14PM)
I have had good dealings with all. If I wasnt clear before, I have no issues with Vic.
Message: Posted by: Darkness (Apr 10, 2018 11:41PM)
Who thinks Vic needs anyone testifying to his reputation in this micro community? Put up your hand!

That's what I thought... We all know he's a good guy. Or do you believe there are that many new people who need to be red alerted? As if we are growing in numbers leaps and bounds. You can look at the sticky at the top of the forum to get a list of top shelf reputable vendors or just ask someone before you buy if you really must. It's not an issue, it never was.

Why is there always a public knee jerk reaction (on both sides) to issues that are not even problems? Ones that are simply solved with a private email or just ignore the thread? Yes, the communication was not entirely clear as Vic confirmed. But it didn't warrant a public broadcast all points bulletin.

This is one reason forums are dying, people see what is really important to some (not just this issue), and it's a turn off. And our art is turning into, well, collectors art for the most part. Driven by the coveted COA's and escalating investment potential. Giving COA's more value then they are worth. It's driving a hyped, false market which is good for no one (and terrible for starving artist performers who want to buy it to actually use it!). So much for the performance art side of things on these limited run items, as most will live in the dark. I'm generalizing but not too far off from the reality, I believe.

BTW Outlaw COA's (and COA's in general) have little to no value. Enjoy the props, and don't feed the second hand, over inflated, market prices. COA's are partially to blame for turning these items into $$$ collector bait (it's out of control just look at book prices). Even if you didn't have a COA, you actually think that lowers the value or greatness of a prop and you won't be able to sell it down the road? Who cares you're "collecting" it! And if you are buying to resell then you are not doing the community a favor and there is little sympathy. I wish COA's didn't exist, they are poison for all the reasons stated. You can only make so many hand made props before you have to stop. The low unit numbers attract collectors and we just have to live with it (when in Rome play the game I guess). We are not as underground as we think we are.

And count your lucky stars your name isn't Rick.

Signed
"The other" Rick
Message: Posted by: Delimbeau (Apr 11, 2018 03:46AM)
Some more background on the collecting perspective:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_collecting

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectable
Message: Posted by: Brynmore14 (Apr 11, 2018 06:22AM)
Vic is one of the reasons The Roxanne Effect was such a success for me. He was incredibly supportive and asked nothing in return. I agree with Darkness in saying that those of us who know Vic, personally or professionally, know he's a stand up guy without a doubt.
Message: Posted by: 252life (Apr 11, 2018 06:22PM)
Yeah, Vics a saint and should be canonized ASAP.

Anyway, weren't pre orders of the new Luna supposed to come with a "ward key"?
Maybe I misread the offer way, way, way, back when the order was placed.
Otherwise, when the product did finally arrive, months later, it was absolutely 100% ok.
Even without the key.
I'll probably just go to a hobby store, and make a stand in for a few dollars.
But, it's really just a passing curiosity at this point, so no biggie either way.

Hope everyone's having a great day :)
Message: Posted by: Merlinsmagic (Apr 11, 2018 07:19PM)
It was for the 1st 20 pre orders got keys.

I for 1 applaud Vic for doing what he did & know that whatever reason he did what he did was for the best of all & at his expense. The only thing that bothered me was that Ricks business practice gone wrong seems to have people so wound up & when someone like Vic rescues these effects his intentions are questioned.....people like Vic I commend & whole heartedly thank that he did what he did for us & the original creators that lost alot.
After reading Prof & Chris's posts, its became clearer as to the integrity that Vic has had trying to believe & help Rick until the end result was worse than the Titanic sinking.
I am a collector & am starting to more use these limited number effects more now, yes we pay good money for limited & low produced items & I love that I don't see these effects plastered all over youtube by kids !!
The whole COA thing has goods & bads, I have purchased effects that the seller lost the coa & am still happy being able to purchase a 2nd hand effect I missed out on, they still command money as they are limited coa or not. Some of us care others don't & I know that even if we can't trust what Rick says that Vic will look into & not produce more than Rick claimed he would.

Vic you explained yourself here & even apologized for not being more on point about your newsletter you sent about your acquisitions, your a gentleman among us & I support what you do or will (or will not do) with these that you are acquiring from Rick & that you even are giving some back to rightful owners & creators that lost out on they're dealings with outlaw.

Its sad in general to see a business like outlaw with fantastic effects go the way it has, but in reality most of them were the ideas,creations & built by others & taken advantage of by Rick......

Vic you keep on doing what you do, if I had a magic dollar it would say "in Vic we trust" (lol). You have done a great service to us all by having these awesome creators now apart of Gemini Artifacts & back into offering what they do best, crazy awesome ideas & effects for US & our love of bizarre & in ways we don't know.

I can understand that a few may have taken what was said in Vic's newsletter in concern because of Ricks/outlaws history as of past & late, but this is Vic guys, when has he done anyone wrong & ditched on us as did Outlaw/Rick....?

My 2 cents
Message: Posted by: Wizard of Oz (Apr 11, 2018 08:23PM)
I've lauded Vic's skill and ethics in the past, but shall again as they cannot be stressed enough. We are lucky to have him.

Here are some of the very basic but priceless business practices Vic adheres to that make him shine:

Courteous and respectful
Timely communicator
Delivers what he promises
Only offers a product when it is available
Stands by his offerings
Tells you on his website when an item is NOT available. I cannot tell you how good it makes me feel to see "Sold Out" on a magic website which I frequent, and respect. First, it reassures me that I am one of many realizing the value of what this merchant has to offer, and everyone likes to back a winner. Second, I am not sending money for a product I will not see for weeks, months, even years later...or never at all. Or more fairly comparing to the magic business in general, avoiding the dreaded "Back Ordered" we so often see on a receipt from a magic supplier. That infuriates me. It is essentially a big "F.U. sucker! You spent money on something we don't even have yet."

But most of all, Vic is trusted and respected. Those words are not earned quickly or easily. And the words "Caveat emptor" have no relevance here.
Message: Posted by: DrTodd (Apr 18, 2018 04:34AM)
I was very pleased and honoured to work with Vic on the new Luna edition, which is vastly improved from the previous editions. His attention to detail amd thought processes are fantastic, as are his professionalism, customer service, and friendliness.
Message: Posted by: Mr Timothy Gray (Apr 19, 2018 09:24AM)
I'm a big fan of what Vic is doing over at Gemini, but this kind of thread is EXACTLY the reason why I hardly visit the Cafť and the Spooky forum anymore. Endless chat and hype about 'limited edition' props, the frenzy to buy up said props, and the perpetuation of an imaginary market.

I can't support it any longer. It isn't artistically fulfilling. I have shows to perform.
Message: Posted by: Winks (Apr 19, 2018 09:26AM)
And your point is? No one forces you to read these threads.
Message: Posted by: weepinwil (Apr 19, 2018 10:15AM)
[quote]On Apr 19, 2018, Mr Timothy Gray wrote:
I'm a big fan of what Vic is doing over at Gemini, but this kind of thread is EXACTLY the reason why I hardly visit the Cafť and the Spooky forum anymore. Endless chat and hype about 'limited edition' props, the frenzy to buy up said props, and the perpetuation of an imaginary market.

I can't support it any longer. It isn't artistically fulfilling. I have shows to perform. [/quote]

I would like to say you'll be missed but I've never heard of you or seen you on this thread. Hope your shows do well.
Message: Posted by: greerj (Apr 19, 2018 10:58AM)
[quote]On Apr 19, 2018, Mr Timothy Gray wrote:
I'm a big fan of what Vic is doing over at Gemini, but this kind of thread is EXACTLY the reason why I hardly visit the Cafť and the Spooky forum anymore. Endless chat and hype about 'limited edition' props, the frenzy to buy up said props, and the perpetuation of an imaginary market.

I can't support it any longer. It isn't artistically fulfilling. I have shows to perform. [/quote]

I love the Cafť. It has posts that are informative, helpful, strange, annoying and sometimes downright maddening, but I have never found it to be artistically fulfilling. I'm not a performer, though, so perhaps that is the reason others read it.