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Topic: Sankey's UNDENIABLE
Message: Posted by: ejohn (Apr 25, 2018 04:58PM)
There isn't a full performance, but the trailer looks good: https://sankey-magic.myshopify.com/products/undeniable Has anyone tried it? Would like to see a review.
Message: Posted by: Magicsquared (Apr 25, 2018 05:05PM)
This seems to be his trick "Just Imagine" but with a new name.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 25, 2018 05:26PM)
I just watched the 'Just Imagine' trailer and that seemed [if I saw it right] to have two DL and a DB

Undeniable trailer didn't suggest there was any DL or DB - it seems to say you take out the only card and everyone goes crazy as it has the correct shape and colour on it

I'm not asking for real magic - but unless there is some new method the Undeniable trailer is undeniably sneaky

It has a skill level of 1... I guess that's the lowest skill level... wouldn't that be for a self working effect [?]

It's not's just that there is work to do - if it's still two DL... but dropping the card onto the pack, etc - it isn't very logical... and he says on the trailer you take the card out... so that would either be lying... or there is a new method... or he's showing it from the specs view point [hmm, when selling it - which is naughty]

As he says you can give the envelope away, I guess this is not a new [compared to Just Imagine]method

Though of course the tricks are completely different... as Just Imagine uses the 2d and Undeniable the 2h

AND yes all the patter and everything is exactly the same as the previous release
Message: Posted by: Tomangerry (Apr 26, 2018 06:00PM)
He is showing it from a spectators point of view . Tom
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 26, 2018 06:44PM)
[quote]On Apr 26, 2018, Tomangerry wrote:
He is showing it from a spectators point of view . Tom [/quote]

No - he is not 'showing' it

He's "saying it"... then you get the card out of the envelope they had all along - and they see it's the only card, etc

It's an awful way to sell to magicians

Very devious
Message: Posted by: Paul Rathbun (Apr 27, 2018 08:05AM)
Looks exactly like Just Imagine.
Message: Posted by: mystery7 (Apr 27, 2018 09:41AM)
Just went on youtube to watch Just Imagine. If the trailer is complete for UNDENIABLE it is very different. I can't wee where the switch happens if it is done exactly as in the video. There has to be a switch as this is not mind control. If the video is edited and something is done that we do not see this is a big scam.
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Apr 27, 2018 09:43AM)
You would think Jay would have addressed in the ad copy if this is just a re-release of Just Imagine, or more importantly, if this is an updated version he should mention that to avoid confusion.
Message: Posted by: mystery7 (Apr 27, 2018 10:00AM)
If it is a re-release the deck would come back into play again.WE should see exactly what we do as a perfomer and the cards never come back into play in the trailer.In the trailer He removes the card right from the envelope and just shows it as having the correct shape and color, that is just NOT POSSIBLE without the switch and he never shows the deck again. JUST WRONG JAY
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Apr 27, 2018 01:13PM)
I was wondering about this from the first time I read the description of the effect. I KNEW sounded awfully familiar!!
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 27, 2018 04:36PM)
I guess I am in the minority here,

But to me it feels dishonest to sell a trick like this

Also to give it a skill level of 1

That’s his lowest rating – that must be ‘self-working’, or very simple non-sleight sleights... as soon as you get into the realms of multiple DLs that has to not rank the same as his self workers [?] - I said it's probably just me... as I have no card skills...

I guess I’m a chump – but if I saw that advert and didn’t see the original one [Just Imagine] where it looks like 2 DL, a DB, and having to take the card out of the envelope in a very ‘unusual’ way… and I just went on what Jay Sankey said in the advert for this release… with the skill level needed being the lowest… I would feel super cheated if I bought this and saw what I actually had to do…

Then again he has this trick listed too:

[quote]

FOOLER
The ground-breaking torn and restored routine that completely FOOLED Penn & Teller
[/quote]


Err what????

I know you all love the Sankey - but that is just weasel-ly

Also not mentioning Just Imagine – [either this being an upgraded version or a re-release] all adds up to Jay and his methods being super sketchy

I don’t believe it’s upgraded in anyway

I just think he’s put out an awful ad copy video – to garner extra sales… and have the trick in more magicians bottom draws... though maybe he will lose some repeat business [?]

Now I wonder…

Surely….

He must use the deck of cards that he released…

The ones he was always going to use, that he specially got designed… [Tattoos deck] that looked awful and were in actual fact very cheap and poor quality…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdIJfd-G5uU

“awful”, “unfit for even card games”, “basically dollar store cards”

Even on here they didn't get any love

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=641956&forum=218

I think at some point you can no longer say, 'he used to release good stuff' - as an excuse for the way he sells stuff now

Anyone can put out rubbish

But it's about how they put it out... if it's an honest as copy - that's ok... when it's all slime and subterfuge, then surely it deserves more attention and less respect
Message: Posted by: mikenewman (Apr 27, 2018 05:03PM)
He says that you (Magician) take the exact envelope they were holding. And take out the card.

You can give the card and envelope to them as a souvenir.

Not a DB. You couldn’t hand it out.

I was thinking Just Imagine too.

I ordered it.
If nothing else, I will work on it with my 9 year old daughter.
The one you see me holding in my pic! Yep, she’s freaking 9!
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 27, 2018 05:07PM)
Either that picture is old....

Or she has been using a lot of those rejuvenating creams that apparently actually work
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 27, 2018 05:11PM)
I only guessed from m just imagine

I guessed DB was in the envelope

After the DLs you now hand out a card that was not in the envelope for the spec to keep

You are right if sankey is honest in his advert videos - that's can't be the method

So I'm a chump

I'm not a card guy so if it is skill level 1 and no DL type shenanigans- then I'm interested

But.... Sankey could be a weasel

Do please review it if you can

All the best
Message: Posted by: mikenewman (Apr 27, 2018 06:01PM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2018, The Duster wrote:
Either that picture is old....

Or she has been using a lot of those rejuvenating creams that apparently actually work [/quote]

Lol
Yeah. My wording was off.
It’s definitely an old pic! :)

I ordered it.

Won’t get here until late next week.
Message: Posted by: Woodfield (Apr 27, 2018 07:05PM)
I use Just Imagine a lot. Although I don't use the db and envelope, I take the prediction out of a Mullica wallet I place on the table at the start.

Woodfield
Message: Posted by: Paul Rathbun (Apr 27, 2018 07:21PM)
Just Imagine isn't a bad effect for laymen. I just wish he had made it clear that all this is is a re-release of Just Imagine. The video doesn't show a performance, just a description of what he imagines the spectator perceiving.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 27, 2018 07:52PM)
[quote]On Apr 27, 2018, Paul Rathbun wrote:
Just Imagine isn't a bad effect for laymen. I just wish he had made it clear that all this is is a re-release of Just Imagine. The video doesn't show a performance, just a description of what he imagines the spectator perceiving. [/quote]

so he's a weasel [?]
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Apr 27, 2018 09:43PM)
He posted this on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BiEk_CbFg0E/

If he is highlighting this aspect of the effect... then maybe it is a new handling of Just Imagine... would be nice to know for sure.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 27, 2018 10:01PM)
So he's not a weasel [?]
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Apr 28, 2018 10:55AM)
To be honest, Inpurchasee Just Imagine some time back, but never got to working on it. Been thinking about it lately, though. Think I may give it a shot.
Message: Posted by: Pastor Mickey (Apr 28, 2018 05:15PM)
This is the ad copy on Jay's web site.

"Jay created 'UNDENIABLE' (orginally called 'Just Imagine') to hit people's minds from three different psychological angles - with three unforgettable climaxes!"
Message: Posted by: TuneHV (Apr 28, 2018 05:46PM)
[quote]On Apr 28, 2018, Pastor Mickey wrote:
This is the ad copy on Jay's web site.

"Jay created 'UNDENIABLE' (orginally called 'Just Imagine') to hit people's minds from three different psychological angles - with three unforgettable climaxes!" [/quote]

He just revised that. The trailer is very misleading then. Still a very good effect though
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 28, 2018 06:17PM)
That was not the ad copy

Must have seen this thread

His trailer/demo/whatever - is very misleading

I would hope ppl could get a refund when they realise that it is not at all how is described
Message: Posted by: Rizzo (Apr 28, 2018 07:09PM)
If this is the remake then the trailer is very misleading and a shame. If it’s a remake, what are the advantages ?
Message: Posted by: mikenewman (Apr 28, 2018 08:56PM)
Hmmmmmmm

Just Imagine that I would have known that this was a remake.

I have zero issues with remakes. But I 100% Sankey feel duped!!!!!
I bought this. I jumped on it.
My fault!

Love Sankey. But man this stinks.
Ughhhhhhhhhh!!!!

I need to refrain from getting all excited for something and not waiting.

Darn.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 28, 2018 09:22PM)
Can you not ask/demand a refund

For not saying it's a remake

And lying about the effect in the demo

I don't think a 'this is what the spec sees' is a legitimate way to get around sugar coating effects [in trailers] to sell them to magicians
Message: Posted by: mikenewman (Apr 28, 2018 09:42PM)
I probably can and most likely will.
I’m going to wait and see if it’s mentioned In the instructions that this is indeed a re-make.

But yeah. I agree that this is totally not at all cool.
I should know better. But still wrong.
Message: Posted by: rgnprof (Apr 29, 2018 08:36AM)
I jumped on this pretty quick as well, but after reading through this page and revisiting the effect that I first leaned off one of his DVD's, I shot him an email and asked for a refund. They responded quickly - within a day - and refunded my money without any issues. They explained the rationale for the re-release and that they are offering an updated DVD with new handlings...But, I had no problem getting refunded. I should note though, that I asked for the refund before they had a chance to ship it out.

ryan
Message: Posted by: mikenewman (Apr 29, 2018 09:47AM)
Had Just imagine. Years ago.
I liked it. But sold it during a time of need. Yes, I needed the $10! Lol

I will go ahead and get it. I’m pretty sure it’s shipped.

I honestly have zero issues with updated products. I actually enjoy them. When it’s known up front.
I’m also a very laid back guy. Takes quite a lot to upset me.

In this case. I believe they learned something.
Jay has contributed so much to magic. Yes, he’s making a living selling products. But it’s still contributing.
Him, like many others, are trying to keep going.

Thanks for your update though.
Message: Posted by: mikenewman (Apr 29, 2018 10:34AM)
It’s now sold out on his website.

I have a feeling a lot of people are going to be highly disappointed when they realize the method. The demo obviously doesn’t show it.

It’s a good effect. But I can just see people getting upset on this.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 29, 2018 11:14AM)
I would have been disappointed

(As I have no skills)

Because the method is both something I can't do, and something on purpose I don't want to learn to do... I know I'm thinking the wrong way.... but I really hate any routine with a DL...... never mind two

Mike at least this is a product you liked before.... I just hope there is extra value in the new DVD... if not at least you have bought your daughter a fun present
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Apr 29, 2018 04:34PM)
Personally, I don't mind a DL. Never been a problem. To the spectators, it's a single lift. (In their mind.)
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 29, 2018 05:15PM)
You have to do 2 DL

So does that make it a QL in total?
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 29, 2018 05:16PM)
And I'm still not convinced all Spec/laymen are so easily fooled

They may be polite - but before I got into any of this, I always saw a card going on top of the deck, and even a good DL, for what it was... I was 100% a layman then
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Apr 29, 2018 05:31PM)
You had the DL figured out when you were uninitiated in magic?
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 29, 2018 06:04PM)
Yeah...

I don't think that's surprising [is it?]

I get shown the top card of the deck, it gets dealt face down - then changes by itself to another card...

I didn't have a clue that it was called a DL

I'm sure many people are polite - but you must get some ppl call you out [?] - as if you take a card out of an envelope, put it onto a deck, then give it to me/reveal it... yeah - I might not of know the term DL, but I would sure as heck know when and how the 'magic' just happened

Of course I'm more interested in the story/patter - if that's good, the magic will fly by me as I enjoyed the journey so I won't say anything [even if I was an asshat]... or if the story/patter is very bad, I will just say well done and try to move on ASAP

Your most likely to get ppl telling you if your presentation is mediocre
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Apr 29, 2018 06:40PM)
Then the question is, of course, how do we make the DL more effective? How do we TRULY fool with it?
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Apr 29, 2018 06:50PM)
DLs are overused in magic, and I do have to wonder how many times laymen can indeed figure out what is going on, but are just being polite by not saying anything.
Message: Posted by: Woodfield (Apr 29, 2018 07:54PM)
Work on your technique
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 29, 2018 08:13PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2018, Woodfield wrote:
Work on your technique [/quote]

Hmmm

I think you are missing the point

Technique won't help you...

... if you really want to believe that laymen don't see it for what it is - and are very often being polite... yeah cool

I do despair at the arrogance that magicians have towards their audience, to the stupidity or blindness of 'laypeople' - maybe watch with laypeople and hear what they say once the magician has gone…
Message: Posted by: Magicsquared (Apr 29, 2018 09:07PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2018, The Duster wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2018, Woodfield wrote:
Work on your technique [/quote]

Hmmm

I think you are missing the point

Technique won't help you...

... if you really want to believe that laymen don't see it for what it is - and are very often being polite... yeah cool

I do despair at the arrogance that magicians have towards their audience, to the stupidity or blindness of 'laypeople' - maybe watch with laypeople and hear what they say once the magician has gone… [/quote]

While there are a lot of magic techniques that are questionable even when performed perfectly, a double lift isn't one of them. The actions can and should be identical to the way it would look with a single card. If you're getting caught on your doubles then Woodfield is right, you need to work on your technique.
Message: Posted by: drstevemagic (Apr 29, 2018 11:38PM)
Getting back to this effect: No matter how good your DL is, how do you keep an observant spectator from thinking (and perhaps saying) "why didn't you just flip the card over when it came out of the envelope?" Putting it back on top of the deck first and then revealing it will surely engender suspicion.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Apr 30, 2018 12:41AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2018, Magicsquared wrote:
If you're getting caught on your doubles then Woodfield is right, you need to work on your technique. [/quote]

I don't have a DL

It's you not me that's getting caught

Just becuase ppl are polite - it doesn't mean you are getting away with it... seriously try and read my post... just hang around after someone you consider the best at DL, has performed... I promise you afterwards, the laypeople if they talk about it will often know what they saw...

For goodness sake the move is in almost every card routine that they see

Cool though - keep believing specs are all stupid... no problem to me - and as you can't read my posts properly, that sure indicates that you are happy to misread specs reactions and feelings towards your work
Message: Posted by: Magicsquared (Apr 30, 2018 01:37AM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2018, The Duster wrote:
[quote]On Apr 29, 2018, Magicsquared wrote:
If you're getting caught on your doubles then Woodfield is right, you need to work on your technique. [/quote]

I don't have a DL

It's you not me that's getting caught

Just becuase ppl are polite - it doesn't mean you are getting away with it... seriously try and read my post... just hang around after someone you consider the best at DL, has performed... I promise you afterwards, the laypeople if they talk about it will often know what they saw...

For goodness sake the move is in almost every card routine that they see

Cool though - keep believing specs are all stupid... no problem to me - and as you can't read my posts properly, that sure indicates that you are happy to misread specs reactions and feelings towards your work [/quote]

Nice try, but you're wrong. My friends aren't polite. I get caught on things all the time. I consider that part of the process of getting better. But I don't get caught on a double lift, because I've worked on it enough that it looks essentially the same as the genuine action.
Message: Posted by: nattefrost (Apr 30, 2018 01:41AM)
Sometimes if you have the deck in one hand and the envelope in the other, you can make it look like you need the deck as a "resting surface" for the card when you take it out of the envelope, kind of like "your hands are full" and that's the "only place" you can put the card for the time being. Other effects use this method like a simple card to wallet with the DB in the wallet to start. It looks a little better when you use the deck to "help" the card out of the envelope. But it is true, people will say "why did he do,this and not that", etc, but there will be people also that it will fly right by.
Message: Posted by: nattefrost (Apr 30, 2018 01:56AM)
In some cases I've used the prediction card with a red back, while the particular effect is being performed with a blue deck (or vice versa). The prediction card does not have to be a DB, just any red backed card with a little double stick or spray on the face, dump it onto the top of the deck and with the tips of your fingers cleanly and slowly just lift it off the top and show the reveal. You can't hand it out, but the color separation helps it look better and makes it seem more like that the card you just dumped is the exact card you just revealed.
Message: Posted by: drstevemagic (Apr 30, 2018 07:33AM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2018, nattefrost wrote:
In some cases I've used the prediction card with a red back, while the particular effect is being performed with a blue deck (or vice versa). The prediction card does not have to be a DB, just any red backed card with a little double stick or spray on the face, dump it onto the top of the deck and with the tips of your fingers cleanly and slowly just lift it off the top and show the reveal. You can't hand it out, but the color separation helps it look better and makes it seem more like that the card you just dumped is the exact card you just revealed. [/quote]

Now, that's a great idea for a convincing reveal, whether as above or with a DL. Thanks!
Message: Posted by: nattefrost (Apr 30, 2018 08:48AM)
No problem!!!
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Apr 30, 2018 04:08PM)
I finally looked at the DVD, today. Was surprised to see he provided an alternate method that completely dispenses with the need for a DL.
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Apr 30, 2018 04:56PM)
I can 'do' strike DLs - which feels most natural, to me - however, there is sometimes inconsistency. I just can't get it as perfect as I want it, every time.

The thick card (for me, 2 cards held together with 3M Super 77 spray adhesive) allows me the high level of consistency I want. If you haven't tried it, put a solid thick card under 2 cards and try it.

It can be a bit of a trade-off having a gimmick in the deck, but a thick card is about as innocuous and innocent-looking as they come.

There are lots of other kinds of DLs, many involving some sort of get-ready. They're fine, but for me that strike double feels most natural, so it probably looks the most natural when I do it (well). The thick card provides confidence that the natural feeling movement will function properly, each time.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Apr 30, 2018 04:59PM)
I'll give that a try!
Message: Posted by: Chessmann (Apr 30, 2018 05:08PM)
Doug, when I first heard about that, I kind of thought, "Sure..." I was honestly shocked at how well it worked.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Apr 30, 2018 05:10PM)
Actually, I could visualize it in my mind from what you described.
Message: Posted by: Maestro (Apr 30, 2018 11:19PM)
I'm not familiar with "Just Imagine", but if you're reading into what he's saying and know Sankey's history of, uh, "rehashing" his older material, I think there are clues that this was gonna be dissapointing.

1. Excessive marketing - We just found 20 more in the warehouse! Better get it quick at a 30% discount because its gonna sell out (if it's that popular why discount it at all?).
2. Lack of full performance. Why does he not show the full performance? Because it would give away the method. What's wrong with that? The trick is probably either very transparent or much more so that he would like you to believe.
3. "And then you take back the envelope" and reveal the card. Whey not just have the spectator take the card out? Because this is when some of the funny business happens, just at the time you don't want to be doing funny business for a well-constructed effect, at the reveal.
4. List of things the trick doesn't use: *NO nail writers. NO impression gimmicks. NO palming or difficult sleight-of-hand. He's trying to sell magicians a secret they think is valuable, but in reality it makes no difference to the effect. It would probably be a better effect if you did use a nail writer or an impression gimmick, but everyone knows about those already!.
5. Price point - Do you think if he had a way to cleanly do what he was saying in the trailer while having some sort of amazing solution that was revolutionary and also uses no sleight of hand, he would sell it for 17$? No, he would be selling it for like 100$, so obviously there is a major compromise.

Not trying to specifically rip on this one effect, but this is a little lesson on reading into magic advertisements. Maybe instead of going for effects like this trying to make you want an amazing secret that you don't know, just buy the nailwriter, learn the palm, and get the impression device. Who knows, might end up being better!

:).
Message: Posted by: mantel (May 1, 2018 02:25AM)
[quote]On Apr 30, 2018, Maestro wrote:

I'm not familiar with "Just Imagine", but if you're reading into what he's saying and know Sankey's history of, uh, "rehashing" his older material [/quote]


[quote]In January 2008 Jay Sankey said:

First and foremost, if you want use the word "REHASH" and apply it to me. You hopefully have done enough research because I don't think the facts support that that word really applies to me. Given the enormous quanity and the unquestionable value so many people around the planet have found from so much of my stuff.[/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI
Message: Posted by: The Duster (May 1, 2018 03:13AM)
For him, 'rehash' is a word that I 'just imagine' is 'undeniable' and true
Message: Posted by: Cameron Francis (May 1, 2018 07:02AM)
I don't think "rehash" applies here. "Rerelease" might be more appropriate.

The moniker doesn't matter. What matters is the effect and this is a terrific one. I used to use this a lot back in the day. Everything is motivated and there are enough convincers to throw lay people off the scent. There are also multiple ways of doing it.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (May 1, 2018 09:48AM)
Been reading along here, and love Sankey's work...He's prolifically creative and clever, and I enjoy a bit of his closeup, cards, coins, whatever...Just great stuff and a lot of fun! :)

I think sometimes, or perhaps often enough, you come up with more angles or ways of doing the same thing, and may feel it plays different enough to reproach it or even re-offer it. As sometimes, something you've put out long ago might be worth pulling out and brushing off again, something that perhaps got buried with some other stuff or just within another time. Not saying that that's what's happening with this necessarily, but perhaps I'm just cutting the guy some slack. :) It's not easy coming up with hit after hit when you've had a real successful, penchant for it over the long haul.

I've actually not seen this one before, so it's sorta new-2-me, :D and perhaps that's the folks he's aiming at most in all this. Of course, those that caught it the first time as "Just Imagine" will recognize it at the core, but I honestly think a lot of things are like that, especially coming from one man's mind...Just sayin', but it's a nice effect still, then and now. :)
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (May 1, 2018 03:56PM)
Like I said, I purchased it sometime back, and never got around to it. But after viewing the DVD, I'm willing to give it a shot , considering as he provides an alternate method.
Message: Posted by: Why.So.Serious? (May 15, 2018 02:20AM)
Re-release of Just Imagine?!?
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (May 15, 2018 06:55AM)
Seems to be the consensus.
Message: Posted by: Santie321 (Aug 27, 2018 03:00PM)
The only thing Undeniable about this trick is that I got ripped off. Lack of a trailer should have been a big warning sign ..
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Aug 27, 2018 05:10PM)
Yup!
Message: Posted by: Dustin Baker (Jan 8, 2019 09:24PM)
I own both effects, it is 100% the same as Just Imagine, not even a new handling.

To be clear, I thought it was a new handling of Just Imagine and he was trying to squeeze more out of it. But no, its 100% the same.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Jan 9, 2019 04:40PM)
Wow. That has to be the ultimate deception.
Message: Posted by: docguitarman (May 14, 2019 12:12PM)
Hello all!

I just got an email advertising an "Undeniable" and "Omnilope" bundle for sale now. Almost pulled the trigger, but thankfully, the Magic Café has saved me $20! (although the omnilope sounds good)
I found an old performance of "Just Imagine" and it was easy to detect the method. So thanks to all again!

Here is my extra 2 cents. I am one of those whose DL is not perfected -- I am trying several different approaches at the moment from the BBM double lift project DVD and am making some progress. I think to pull off the DL one needs a near virtuoso technique, extremely smooth with no pause or hesitation -- attributes I still lack!

But having said that I agree with previous comments that the DL always looks "sneaky" because of the necessity to turn the card back over on the deck. If the DL is done smoothly this suspicion can be partly allayed, but any hesitation or uneven motion in the DL provokes the question: "why didn't you just turn the card upside down onto the table? (or wherever the final destination might be)" And finally as a DL is needed I also can't agree that it is a beginner effect (as advertised). I suppose this is all an opinion call, though.

Phil
Message: Posted by: CardGuyMike (May 14, 2019 01:18PM)
Not sure which came first but Undeniable reminds me a lot of Cameron Francis' Red Hot Prediction in general effect. But where Undeniable relies on something not shown in the trailer -- removing the card from the envelope and placing it on top of the deck -- Cameron has a nice in-the-hands presentation where placing some cards on top of the deck is completely motivated. Both effects also rely on another bit of business not shown in the Undeniable trailer. Undeniable is a nice effect but I would go with Red Hot Prediction.
Message: Posted by: docguitarman (May 14, 2019 01:29PM)
[quote]On May 14, 2019, CardGuyMike wrote:
Not sure which came first but Undeniable reminds me a lot of Cameron Francis' Red Hot Prediction in general effect. But where Undeniable relies on something not shown in the trailer -- removing the card from the envelope and placing it on top of the deck -- Cameron has a nice in-the-hands presentation where placing some cards on top of the deck is completely motivated. Both effects also rely on another bit of business not shown in the Undeniable trailer. Undeniable is a nice effect but I would go with Red Hot Prediction. [/quote]

Hi Mike,
"Undeniable" is the same effect as Sankey's "just Imagine" as was revealed in this thread. So I looked up an unedited performance of "Just Imagine" -- which was why I declined to buy the "Undeniable" bundle.
Here is the "Just Imagine" video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vI5Cw5aXPY