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Topic: Richard Turner fools Penn and Teller
Message: Posted by: Turing (May 30, 2018 08:46AM)

some days ago I watched Richard Turner's performance fooling Penn and Teller and was very impressed when he gave Penn the 4 kings after the cards had been washed. Has this 'trick' (more a demonstration) ever been published on one of his DVDs? At his Penguin Live lecture he seems to perform a very similar routine (I'm especially interested in how to find the cards after they were 'washed') but as there were complaints that he doesn't fully explain all the demonstrations I'm not sure whether to purchase it or not (I own his DVD 'Science of Shuffling and Stacking and was rather disappointed about the weak explanations). Maybe someone watched that live performance and can give me advice.
Thank you in advance and greetings from Germany.
Message: Posted by: Yowie_ (May 31, 2018 04:33PM)
I'm not 100% sure about the exact method, but I do know of some methods and I'm aware of Turner using them, so I will give ya a clue. Richard Turner is blind. This has nothing to do with sight, but instead a different sense that he has (quite obviously) developed to a *very* high degree. You already know this method, conceptually at least, but probably dismissed it years ago when you graduated from beginner to intermediate.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (May 31, 2018 07:52PM)
If you're going to keep guessing and hinting about how Richard Turner accomplishes one of his effects, head on back to the [b]Beginners Forum[/b] where you belong.
Message: Posted by: Turing (Jun 1, 2018 03:06AM)
@Yowie_: Thanks for your kind reply.
@Mr Bones: Maybe you misunderstood my question and I should have asked more precisely, my fault: I know how I would do it (as I'm especially interested in all kind of riffle shuffle work that's not too difficult) and I have ideas how Mr. Turner may have done it (Darwin Ortiz' 'Raw Deal' from 'Scams and Fantasies with Cards' comes immediately to my mind) but I only wanted to know if Mr. Turner has ever been publishing his method, that's all. And you're right: As I've only been in card magic for six years now and although I'm spending every free minute with practicing, reading and performing I still consider myself a rookie.

Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Jun 1, 2018 04:19AM)
Hi Turing,
The closest thing you’ll find that is an part of Richard’s arsenal in that performance can be found on the Double Signed Card DVD (however I stress that it is only a part..his full system has never been explained publicly and speculation on his system should be avoided).

On a random tangent though, his Penn and Teller performance reminded me of the line from Eric Mead’s performance that for a magician if 10% fools you, you are fooled. His system is phenomenal.
Message: Posted by: Turing (Jun 1, 2018 05:31AM)
@Bobbycash: Thank you so much for your kind reply and your advice, I'll definitely have a look at it.
Maybe I should clarify, why I'm so interested especially in Mr. Turner's methods. About 3 years ago I realized that my performances didn't have the quality/the flow I wanted them to have. I noticed that despite all the practice in front of a mirror and taping myself I was still to busy watching the cards instead of interacting with the audience. After watching one of Richard Turner's performances, it dawned on me that I could practice the way Mr. Turner performs: blind! So I started practicing my Ace Cutting routine, immediately followed by stacking a poker hand (Lessinout stack) or my three packet triumph etc. blind. And it paid off. After a short period of time I relied more on feeling the cards than on watching the cards and this improved my interaction with the audience dramatically. So the performances were and are more fun for my audience (and therefore also for me). It doesn't work completely blind for all tricks (but more often than not) but it's a really successful method. By the way: As I'm not a native speaker, please forgive me my linguistic mistakes, I'm still working on it (despite my age of 52).

Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 1, 2018 10:26AM)
I am not a magician but I watched the Richard Turner exhibition trick to see what purportedly "fooled" Penn and Teller. I found the routine was quite excellent as far as "I'm a gambling mechanic" demos go. I would say that a routine like this would be interesting and entertaining to both those who are knowledgeable about card table chicanery as well as complete laymen. It also would fool most people, including magicians.

Also, from what I can see, it would be hard to criticize a routine like this because it is not 100% the "real work" or because the procedure is not exactly up to professional card room/card playing standards.

Turner has successfully combined the best of both worlds for a gambling demo by combining some "real" moves with "subterfuge" to produce an entertaining and engaging presentation.

Of course, it is more difficult to follow everything on a video such as this, but it should not be that hard for some on this BB to figure out what he is doing, including the "washing" part of the demo to the finale. Perhaps for those who cannot, maybe they need to learn more.

However, for most people the demo is simply fun to watch and I think some in the magician/demo category could probably benefit from watching Turner perform, especially for the professionalism and entertainment value of his presentation.

And...all the more incredible...he is blind.

WOW!!!! Quite an exceptional fellow.
Message: Posted by: Yowie_ (Jun 7, 2018 03:39AM)

The "washing" part of his routine is not explained in his penguin Live Lecture, and if I recall, he mentions that that part of his system specifically he does not plan to teach.

Edit: The lecture is great, but not really for learning - at least in the way penguin lectures normally are good for learning. And I should mention that if you are on a quest for this kind of card mastery, and you read in between the lines (err, listen in between the words), there *is* relevant information in the lecture.

Richard Turner is amazing. The documentary about him, Dealt, is excellent as well if ya like the guy or look at him with awe and reverence!
Message: Posted by: Claudio (Jun 9, 2018 03:12AM)
Entertaining and skilful demo.

Penn and Teller have no qualm about nearly fully exposing Turner's effect. I wouldn't worry too much about the "washing sequence".

Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 9, 2018 11:08AM)
I don't know if anyone on the BB knows the answer to this question, but I wonder if Richard Turner gave permission to Penn and Teller to expose some of the "secret" parts of his demo or if they simply did so because that was part of the agreement Turner made to perform on the show.

Of course, if Turner made enough bucks for his appearance, maybe it isn't that important to him.

Appearing on national TV is a big reputation maker.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Jun 9, 2018 09:11PM)
Don't know about P&T, but I did a radio interview with Luke Korem, the director of [i]Dealt[/i], and Korem said that while he was filming he asked Turner if it was all right to film his techniques in slow motion. Turner, who has a healthy ego, grinned and said, "Sure, why not. No one else can do it, anyway."

You can hear my interview with Korem here:

Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 10, 2018 05:10PM)
[quote]On Jun 9, 2018, landmark wrote:

Don't know about P&T, but I did a radio interview with Luke Korem, the director of [i]Dealt[/i], and Korem said that while he was filming he asked Turner if it was all right to film his techniques in slow motion. Turner, who has a healthy ego, grinned and said, "Sure, why not. No one else can do it, anyway."[/quote]

Very nice interview and enjoyed listening to it.

The interview actually answered my question about exposure on P&T indirectly. It seems he feels the additional exposure enhances his reputation further.

Committed to his audience, doing enunciation exercise in preparation for his performances and using showmanship throughout his demonstration makes Turner a real pro at what he does.

I think Turner is a good role model for those who aspire to perform gambling demonstrations.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 13, 2018 06:17PM)
One hundred plus year-old gambling moves are pretty much common knowledge in today's world. Expose on national tv, the internet, DVDs, YouTube, in books and so forth make these moves pretty much useless for hustlers who play in big money games. They can be also dangerous for amateur hustlers who play in the smaller home type games unless the games are easy to beat.

However, these dated manipulative moves can be a boon for the magician/demonstrator/hobbyist set and this is how they are most often employed in today's world.

Those that perform straight demos of manipulative "moves" for show or expose fool no one as everyone knows what the move being demonstrated is, whether it is a second, bottom deal, riffle stack, hop or whatever. In this instance it is only a case showing how well the performer/demonstrator does the specific manipulations.

However, in my opinion the cleverest demonstrators/performers secretly incorporate subterfuge and manipulation in a gambling scenario [i]routine[/i] without exposing how they are fooling the audience and these routines can really produce some sensational effects. In this case, the performers/demonstrators are employing the moves or subterfuges without being detected and this application is closer to the way these methods would be employed in a game, secretly to deceive the players (or the audience in this instance) without exposing how the work is being done. In most cases these performers/demonstrators would have to employ their manipulative moves or subterfuges much more deceptively, cleverly and entertainingly than a straight demonstrator would.

Richard Turner's demonstration on P&T combines both approaches and he incorporates both type demonstrations very well and entertainingly.
Message: Posted by: Claudio (Jun 15, 2018 09:27AM)
@Cagliostro: you made some good points. On the other hand if you’re skilful enough to establish your expertise during the “expose” phase of the performance, you might as well follow up with a self-working effect (and/or even use a ‘trick’ deck) because a regular audience would not know whether you used moves or not. Only the few that would suspect or detect that you were using sleights would actually be appreciative of the fact.

Obviously, it all depends on the circumstances in which you’re performing and especially on the type of audience.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Jun 15, 2018 12:13PM)
[quote]On Jun 15, 2018, Claudio wrote:
...if you’re skillful enough to establish your expertise during the "expose" phase of the performance, you might as well follow up with a self-working effect (and/or even use a 'trick' deck) because a regular audience would not know whether you used moves or not...[/quote]

Yes, good point. That actually is what I meant by using "subtleties," that is non-sleight of hand methods which may or may not be mixed with sleight of hand.

Someone who impressed me greatly in my younger days was the mentalist Theodore Annemann. Annemann was incredibly clever and he eliminated sleight of hand wherever possible in his mental tricks, using cleverness and sophisticated deception rather than "moves" as I recall.

That woke me up to the fact that moves were not as important or relevant as some others made them out to be.

[quote]Obviously, it all depends on the circumstances in which you're performing and especially on the type of audience. [/quote]

Yup... the tail that wags the dog.