(Close Window)
Topic: Brian Brushwoord Book test
Message: Posted by: art85y (Jun 26, 2018 07:12AM)
This question, which I feel strongly about, came up in 'Inner Thoughts' and a discussion of a book test by Brian Brushwood.
I am not familar with this book test but it seems that it is rather expensive and involves a genuine published work (albeit modified).

Mr Brushwood, it appears, has a lot of enemies in the Café and one of these suggested that he was possibly breaking copyright law.

My view is this - when you buy a published book it is YOUR PROPERTY, you have not bought a license as with software, you own it all, ink, paper, binding the lot. If you want to modify it (the example I used was to hollow it out to make a stash box for cash or jewellery, or even a vanish or switch box) and then sell the modified version, then you have the right.

I am fairly sure that in the UK my position on this is sound but I would appreciate informed opinion please.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jun 26, 2018 09:10AM)
As far as I understand it, you are correct. That is also why he had to purchase the books at retail, then modify them. I remember him talking about it ... somewhere. Probably one of his Scam School podcast/show things. Behind the Scams or whatever.

He's not claiming the story in the book is his work. This would not be any different than either just reselling a book one has purchased, or creating a work of art from a book one had purchased.
Message: Posted by: art85y (Jun 26, 2018 10:01AM)
Thanks Christopher, we are like minded on this.

The suggestion (in Inner Thoughts) was that B.Brushwood is obliged to 'compensate' the author.
It may well be the case that the poster has such strong antipathy towards BB that it is interfering with his logic.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jun 26, 2018 11:52AM)
He has compensated the authors - by buying the books.
Message: Posted by: art85y (Jun 27, 2018 03:27AM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2018, WitchDocChris wrote:
He has compensated the authors - by buying the books. [/quote]

This was exactly my response in "Penny"
Message: Posted by: art85y (Jun 27, 2018 03:27AM)
[quote]On Jun 26, 2018, art85y wrote:
This question, which I feel strongly about, came up in 'Inner Thoughts' and a discussion of a book test by Brian Brushwood.
I am not familar with this book test but it seems that it is rather expensive and involves a genuine published work (albeit modified).

Mr Brushwood, it appears, has a lot of enemies in the Café and one of these suggested that he was possibly breaking copyright law.

My view is this - when you buy a published book it is YOUR PROPERTY, you have not bought a license as with software, you own it all, ink, paper, binding the lot. If you want to modify it (the example I used was to hollow it out to make a stash box for cash or jewellery, or even a vanish or switch box) and then sell the modified version, then you have the right.

I am fairly sure that in the UK my position on this is sound but I would appreciate informed opinion please. [/quote]

CORRECTION - it was originally in "Penny" NOT "Inner"
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jun 29, 2018 01:18AM)
I don’t see it being a problem here…

But…

It’s because he has altered them, because he is selling them for a different purpose, because he has used them in his own [artistic way] – that he has broken certain rules/laws

If you buy a book new for £25. You can sell that book second hand for £100 – no problems… but if you sold it after having ‘added’ something to it [maybe it is now a work or art because you have put a red pen line through all words beginning with the letter ‘A’] – now you have a problem. Now the original copyright holder needs to give you permission… you may need to pay them… or offer them a percentage…

If it’s easier to understand, think of it this way…

If you bought the Beatles Album Rubber Soul, you could sell it again no problems.

If you added your own ‘music’ or in any way sampled any tracks from Rubber Soul – then you would be in trouble [if you hadn’t got permission]

This is exactly the same

Except it’s on a small enough scale – that nobody is likely to bother suing over this

They may go as far as a cease and desist

But if BB went on to make millions from this – then he would lose all the money [and more] – it’s the same as various tracks that use samples. The ones that never make any money don’t get sued/noticed

So you are correct that nothing will happen

But it is definitely not legal to take someone’s book – and change it in any way to then sell it on
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jun 29, 2018 08:38AM)
Just now a new one:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/music/ed-sheeran-sued-for-dollar100m-over-marvin-gaye-song/ar-AAziOtk?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=mailsignout
Message: Posted by: art85y (Jun 29, 2018 12:21PM)
Thanks duster but I feel that your examples do not parallel the Brushwood situation.
if you sample someones music and put it out as your own work then that is blatant infringement of copyright. the ed sheeran example ( if proven) is the same, ie using somebody elses themes, rhythms, melodies or whatever (i flunked music).

i may well be wrong legally, but my gut sense of right and wrong says you can repurpose a book for whatever you want, provided that does not include as a literary work.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jun 29, 2018 12:28PM)
No it's exactly the same

You are usesing someone elses work [art] and turning it into your own work [art]

You can't do that.

You can sell it as is

But as soon as you make changes [not in anyway sanctioned by the original creator] the book/song is now something different

That's bad enough

But then to sell it on... as being different

No chance would you win a court case

Of course a court case would be too expensive in this case

Unless BB is very rich and you can prove other damages
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 29, 2018 02:09PM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2018, The Duster wrote:
...But it is definitely not legal to take someone’s book – and change it in any way to then sell it on [/quote]

What about fair use? Is the trick infringing on the product sales - as opposed to creating new reasons for additional sales of the item?
Message: Posted by: art85y (Jun 29, 2018 06:23PM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Jun 29, 2018, The Duster wrote:
...But it is definitely not legal to take someone’s book – and change it in any way to then sell it on [/quote]

What about fair use? Is the trick infringing on the product sales - as opposed to creating new reasons for additional sales of the item? [/quote]

A very valid point JT.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jun 30, 2018 01:06AM)
Noooooooooooooooooooo

This does not fall under fair use

Sorry - not meaning to come across as rude.

Maybe I could try it another way...

If you were to write your own book and use the characters from Harry Potter - you would obviously get sued

[I believe ’50 Shades of Grey’ was some kind of fan fiction – that the author/publisher changed all the characters – or they would never have been able to release it… I think it was Twilight]

So we are happy with that?

Now imagine you bought a Harry Potter book, and changed… three sentences.

Are you saying that is fair use [?]

Yikes.

If you don't sell it on - for personal use, that's fine. You can do what you want with your own property... but not if you then intend to sell it...

You would have people taking sad stories and making them have happy endings...

Now not only are the books modified – they are also [by BB] being repurposed into working as BT

How is that ever fair use

I think the misunderstanding might be that the sensible people [who don’t want to get sued] but want to use real recognisable books for BT – use ones that are public domain. So you will see ‘real’ books that have been modified for BT, but if they are not in public domain – then the creator could get sued.

Again for a small run magic trick – it might be unlikely

But it depends… I know the company that owns Peppa Pig are very quick to send cease and desist letters and then sue people. I believe Disney protect themselves well. I have no clue about Random House or whoever owns the books used in this particular case

If you disliked BB enough you could report him, but I always think life is too short for that sort of thing. And if he were to make millions from this effect, they would most certainly catch up with him. This sort of ‘crime’ only pays if you aren’t particularly successful.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jun 30, 2018 01:13AM)
There are several factors that a court will consider when determining whether an instance of infringement qualifies as fair use. Non-commercial use weighs heavily in favor of finding that the infringement is fair use. Violations often occur when the use is motivated primarily by a desire for commercial gain. The fact that a work is published primarily for private commercial gain weighs against a finding of fair use.

the following types of uses are usually deemed fair uses:
• Criticism and commentary: For example, quoting or excerpting a work in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment would normally be fair use. A book reviewer would be permitted to quote passages from a book in a newspaper column as part of an examination of the book.
• News reporting: Summarizing an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report constitutes fair use. A journalist would be permitted to quote from a political speech's text without the politician's permission.
• Research and scholarship: Quoting a short passage in a scholarly, scientific, or technical work for illustration or clarification of the author's observations would be deemed acceptable. An art historian would be able to use an image of a painting in an academic article that analyzes the painting.
• Nonprofit educational uses: When teachers photocopy limited portions of written works for classroom use, this is normally acceptable. An English teacher would be permitted to copy a few pages of a book to show to the class as part of a lesson plan. (Note that she would not be permitted to photocopy the entire book).
• Parody: Parody is a work that ridicules another, usually well-known, work by imitating it in a comic way. A comedian could quote from a movie star's speech in order to make fun of that star.
Message: Posted by: art85y (Jun 30, 2018 10:49AM)
Duster, not sure that re-working a book and releasing it as a magic trick counts as 'publishing'

Sounds much more like free (and positive) publicity to me.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jun 30, 2018 11:26AM)
Nooooooooo

You are wrong

My god

This is not opinon

You can not take someone elses work and do that - maybe there are some countries that you could do this in - but I doubt even that, and they would be very dodgy countries
Message: Posted by: art85y (Jun 30, 2018 02:50PM)
I understand that its not opinion, I appreciate your informed input, and I'm trying to get a handle on it.

OK, let's try another example. A pocket diary (copyright protected, just like a novel), you buy 50 of them, fill the pages with playing cards and sell them with a stacked deck as a diary effect.

Where do we stand on this one?

Here's another example, a college professor sells a bunch of his textbooks complete with hand written footnotes and annotations, and dare I say, corrections? It may even be the case that he is more renowned than the original author.
Message: Posted by: art85y (Jun 30, 2018 03:04PM)
[quote]On Jun 29, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Jun 29, 2018, The Duster wrote:
...But it is definitely not legal to take someone’s book – and change it in any way to then sell it on [/quote]

What about fair use? Is the trick infringing on the product sales - as opposed to creating new reasons for additional sales of the item? [/quote]

Exactly, will any literature buff be persuaded to buy a magic trick as opposed to the original literary work, it's extremely doubtful that sales would be negatively affected in the slightest.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jun 30, 2018 06:34PM)
[quote]On Jun 30, 2018, art85y wrote:
[quote]On Jun 29, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Jun 29, 2018, The Duster wrote:
...But it is definitely not legal to take someone’s book – and change it in any way to then sell it on [/quote]

What about fair use? Is the trick infringing on the product sales - as opposed to creating new reasons for additional sales of the item? [/quote]

Exactly, will any literature buff be persuaded to buy a magic trick as opposed to the original literary work, it's extremely doubtful that sales would be negatively affected in the slightest. [/quote]

Noooooo

You have the right to protect the integrity of your own work

Please…..

So you bring out a children’s book about a dog called sam

I use the same dog/characters or even use the same book and drawings but stick my own text over yours – but the one I bring out is an adult [naughty] version, but I also say you can only buy a copy of my version if you have bought two versions of the original

Well… I’ve not infringed on the sales, I’ve increased them

But just like BB – what I have done is not allowed

Now it’s up to the copyright holders to protect their work… if they never find out, or can’t be bothered… or most often don’t even realise they own the copyright

As many works don’t get reprinted in years – so many people may work for a company and have no clue that x is their title

As authors often sell on their ownership, or had a deal where they never owned it but the publisher did
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jun 30, 2018 06:39PM)
Just to be clear my example was an extreme one - as although to me it's obvious that this is not allowed, so I've shown a bigger [more clear] example as to why the statements made by people about 'fair use' or 'it's ok' are clearly wrong

You don't get to take someone's work and change it and sell it on

That is not fair use

It's beyond just trying to profit - as you are now putting an author’s name to a book that is not how they wrote it, you don't get to accredit your changes to the author

Silly example again... if you guys were correct you could insert a racist narrative voice into Harry Potter... etc
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jun 30, 2018 06:46PM)
[quote]On Jun 30, 2018, art85y wrote:

Here's another example, a college professor sells a bunch of his textbooks complete with hand written footnotes and annotations, and dare I say, corrections? It may even be the case that he is more renowned than the original author.
[/quote]
Who cares if he’s more renowned?

Who is more famous doesn’t change whether you have protection over your own work.

Most study aids do NOT contain the actual text verbatim, the ones I have seen that do [Arden/Oxford/etc] were of Shakespeare plays – and some had one side original text, page facing it a modern day translation… or like you said, text – then loads of footnotes. But in all those examples the books were hundreds of years out of protection.

Modern books – would either be a separate book [you need the original], or brought out by the copyright holder

But if a professor/teacher were to give out notes against the real body of text… and not charge money for this, it may be fair use. Depends on how much, or of what quality of the content has been used.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jun 30, 2018 06:48PM)
That is of examples I have seen

I'm sure there may be example of people who have naughty and done what you said

But when it's in a study context - there is more wiggle room
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jun 30, 2018 06:57PM)
[quote]On Jun 30, 2018, art85y wrote:

OK, let's try another example. A pocket diary (copyright protected, just like a novel), you buy 50 of them, fill the pages with playing cards and sell them with a stacked deck as a diary effect.

Where do we stand on this one?

[/quote]

Not sure what you mean

As the diary part [the dates, and having them in a book] is not copyrighted or copyrightable

I guess the font and formatting might be, as would any photo’s or charts/trivia/etc that is unique to that diary

It’s the words [characters/etc] in the Novel that is protected, not the page numbers

In terms of diaries, if you were sued – they would have to prove they owned the copyright… I guess you mean what you write changed what it was [???] but the diary was produced for people to write in the entries.

I would love to see some proof that they have copywrite, as when you say ‘just like a novel’ – I don’t know where you got that from… just like a pad of paper [?]
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 1, 2018 12:28PM)
Hypothetical: The product purchase includes the book as published, the service of mutilation, and instructions for performing a magic trick. Where's the infringement?
In the eyes of a sensible adult watching the show the book as published is produced and used as source of text...no demonstration of altered content or authorial intent or evident alteration of the publishers production. What's being infringed upon?
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 2, 2018 09:43AM)
[quote]On Jul 1, 2018, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Hypothetical: The product purchase includes the book as published, the service of mutilation, and instructions for performing a magic trick. Where's the infringement?
In the eyes of a sensible adult watching the show the book as published is produced and used as source of text...no demonstration of altered content or authorial intent or evident alteration of the publishers production. What's being infringed upon? [/quote]

You are selling the book as part of the package

If you actually wanted to do this - and not break any rules/laws... you would not include the book in the package [as you are selling it for a different purpose, so profiting]

So just a how to guide, and a list of books that you can buy that it would work with - that would be fine...

Of course if you suggested in your 'how to' guide that they can buy the book and make the changes, and THEN they can sell it on [the book] then you would be doing something wrong. But why would you write that in the 'how to' / 'instructions' anyway [?]
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 2, 2018 11:42AM)
What are the distinctions made between
selling a used book with previous owners bookplate attached and a few scraps of paper
and selling a used book which has been mutilated as part of preparations for a magic trick along with instructions for that trick?
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 2, 2018 02:26PM)
You are changing something that is copyrighted

It's the authors right how it is sold - it's their work, no you can't make changes and sell that on - if you want to make changes and sell it on [especially at a profit] then you will need the authors permission

Just stick to public domain titles - or create you own [made up] books
Message: Posted by: art85y (Jul 3, 2018 07:48AM)
Thanks Duster, One more and I'll shut up.

Can you please clarify one of my earlier examples ie. I hollow out the centre of a book and sell it as a stash box for jewellery or magic. Ok, iv'e mutilated the book, but it's my property, and there is no way on Earth that I am cashing in on the literary content. It could even be a second hand copy, that I picked up with pages already missing.
Message: Posted by: The Duster (Jul 4, 2018 10:44PM)
For yourself [not sold on] that's fine

But you want to take a real book, and sell it on [?]

Again - if they don't notice [you sell a few on market stalls, or not many online] you may be fine [not caught, or if noticed they may deem you too little to be bothered about]

The issue is - the title, the authors name... the book cover... etc - it's their right what happens. If they want to hollow it out, and sell it on - that's the author's or copyright holders right

You can do this - but you need to do it for yourself [no profit] - or you need permission and will have to pay commission or a fee as the rights holders wish.

You are asking the same question in different ways

As always - just make up book titles that are in public domain [don't copy recent covers as they will likely be in copywrite when the book isn't]
Message: Posted by: art85y (Jul 5, 2018 05:49PM)
Cheers duster, I appreciate your perseverance and patience.