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Topic: Principle behing Max Maven trick
Message: Posted by: Radek (Aug 2, 2018 04:47PM)
Hi all,

I am looking for the principle behind the trick The International Travel Mystery from Mind Games of Max Maven.
I have found some other lookalike tricks but not the principle or the math rules behind them.

My idea is to be able to generate new boards of elements with some new ways to always reach the same destination.

Anyone could help ?

Thx,

R
Message: Posted by: Thomas Henry (Aug 2, 2018 07:36PM)
Hello Radek,

The ultimate textbook on this topological scheme is Karl Fulves, [i]Hex Squared[/i], (no place: self-published, 2001).

At 118 pages, it's got [b]everything[/b] you'd ever want to know about the principle, including a couple dozen variations and themes. Whether you can locate a copy of this hard-to-find book is another matter. I was lucky to fetch it during its unadvertised short run.

The original principle for magic supposedly dates back to at least the November 1971 issue of [i]The Pallbearer's Review[/i], but I have not actually seen that article myself. This was a couple decades before Max Maven started using it.

Hope that helps a little.

Thomas Henry
Message: Posted by: saxonia (Aug 3, 2018 07:50AM)
Dear Radek,

If you want to create such tricks, you might also be interested in an alternative principle which was first described by "The 3x3 Matrix" by Martin Gardner in "Scientific America" August 1960. It was used in tricks such as "Voice From Another World", "The Two Guns" (by Robert Neale) or "The Room of Doubt" (Louis Tannen, Inc.) where the instructions came from a tape recorder.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ1WTRkTjcA for a demonstration by David Copperfield (It has been reported that Max Maven helped to create the trick).

As already mentioned - it is another principle - but it can be worth to look at both principles - and maybe to combine them.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 24, 2018 09:52AM)
[quote]On Aug 2, 2018, Thomas Henry wrote:
Hello Radek,

The ultimate textbook on this topological scheme is Karl Fulves, [i]Hex Squared[/i], (no place: self-published, 2001).

At 118 pages, it's got [b]everything[/b] you'd ever want to know about the principle, including a couple dozen variations and themes. Whether you can locate a copy of this hard-to-find book is another matter. I was lucky to fetch it during its unadvertised short run.

The original principle for magic supposedly dates back to at least the November 1971 issue of [i]The Pallbearer's Review[/i], but I have not actually seen that article myself. This was a couple decades before Max Maven started using it.

Hope that helps a little.

Thomas Henry [/quote]
I think I have that Pallbearers article .. It's my 10th Wedding anniversary ..but after this weekends festivities I can look it up and get back to you.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Aug 24, 2018 09:58AM)
[quote]On Aug 3, 2018, saxonia wrote:
Dear Radek,

If you want to create such tricks, you might also be interested in an alternative principle which was first described by "The 3x3 Matrix" by Martin Gardner in "Scientific America" August 1960. It was used in tricks such as "Voice From Another World", "The Two Guns" (by Robert Neale) or "The Room of Doubt" (Louis Tannen, Inc.) where the instructions came from a tape recorder.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ1WTRkTjcA for a demonstration by David Copperfield (It has been reported that Max Maven helped to create the trick).

As already mentioned - it is another principle - but it can be worth to look at both principles - and maybe to combine them. [/quote]


I have an improvement on the Copperfield effect if you'd like a PM....
Message: Posted by: Radek (Aug 24, 2018 10:02AM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2018, Slim King wrote:
[quote]On Aug 3, 2018, saxonia wrote:
Dear Radek,

If you want to create such tricks, you might also be interested in an alternative principle which was first described by "The 3x3 Matrix" by Martin Gardner in "Scientific America" August 1960. It was used in tricks such as "Voice From Another World", "The Two Guns" (by Robert Neale) or "The Room of Doubt" (Louis Tannen, Inc.) where the instructions came from a tape recorder.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ1WTRkTjcA for a demonstration by David Copperfield (It has been reported that Max Maven helped to create the trick).

As already mentioned - it is another principle - but it can be worth to look at both principles - and maybe to combine them. [/quote]


I have an improvement on the Copperfield effect if you'd like a PM.... [/quote]

Thx for your proposition.
I had no luck to find the Karl Fulves HEX SQUARED, so any help to create a new grid with more than 3X3 or 4X4 situation or using more than 2 types of squares.

R.
Message: Posted by: Sixten (Aug 24, 2018 12:08PM)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Can be found in his (1980) book: Curioser: Pg. #44)

:)
Message: Posted by: Radek (Aug 24, 2018 01:16PM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2018, Sixten wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Can be found in his (1980) book: Curioser: Pg. #44)

:) [/quote]

Unfortunately, I can not find it either...
Message: Posted by: saxonia (Aug 26, 2018 02:25AM)
One more source is Fulves: More Self Working Card Tricks.
Message: Posted by: saxonia (Aug 26, 2018 02:29AM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2018, Slim King wrote:
[quote]On Aug 3, 2018, saxonia wrote:
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ1WTRkTjcA for a demonstration by David Copperfield (It has been reported that Max Maven helped to create the trick).
[/quote]

I have an improvement on the Copperfield effect if you'd like a PM.... [/quote]

Hoping that this was directed to me as well - I would be grateful if you could send me a PM.
I have also worked on this effect, so maybe we can exchange our thoughts.
Message: Posted by: Radek (Aug 26, 2018 09:37AM)
Hi all,

It seems that "HEX SQUARED" is the only book that contains all the explanation to create new brand matrixes.
All other books only allow to redo an existing one.
In my next gig, I wanna be available ti create several matrixes with the same outcome but not the same final square (if you followed me).

So, I made some research and found that a site called "https://www.funnymagic.net" is the only one selling the pdf files of "HEX SQUARED".
Does someone already ordered from this site, si it legit ?

Cheers,

R.
Message: Posted by: Radek (Aug 27, 2018 12:28AM)
And by the way, I am looking to build a minimum 22 squares matrix (Just like if I don't need another challenge)
Message: Posted by: saxonia (Aug 27, 2018 10:03AM)
[quote]
So, I made some research and found that a site called "https://www.funnymagic.net" is the only one selling the pdf files of "HEX SQUARED".
[/quote]

If a shop sells something that is sold out anywhere else, this can be an alarming signal. Also the e-books are far too cheap. Finally: I would not order from a site that does not even provide any contact details. There are several fake-shops around.
Message: Posted by: Sixten (Aug 27, 2018 01:27PM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2018, Radek wrote:
[quote]On Aug 24, 2018, Sixten wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Can be found in his (1980) book: Curioser: Pg. #44)

:) [/quote]

Unfortunately, I can not find it either... [/quote]

https://magicref.net/magicbooks/books/fulveskarlcurioser.htm

:)
Message: Posted by: saxonia (Aug 29, 2018 01:38PM)
One more suggestion: If you need inspirations for this kind of effects, you can find it in the book "Magic Scratchers" (https://amzn.to/2wpH3xB) which is full of this kind of instruction games / puzzles. They are not explained, but it is anyway more interesting to find out the method by yourself.
Message: Posted by: Radek (Aug 31, 2018 02:51PM)
[quote]On Aug 24, 2018, Slim King wrote:
[quote]On Aug 2, 2018, Thomas Henry wrote:
Hello Radek,

The ultimate textbook on this topological scheme is Karl Fulves, [i]Hex Squared[/i], (no place: self-published, 2001).

At 118 pages, it's got [b]everything[/b] you'd ever want to know about the principle, including a couple dozen variations and themes. Whether you can locate a copy of this hard-to-find book is another matter. I was lucky to fetch it during its unadvertised short run.

The original principle for magic supposedly dates back to at least the November 1971 issue of [i]The Pallbearer's Review[/i], but I have not actually seen that article myself. This was a couple decades before Max Maven started using it.

Hope that helps a little.

Thomas Henry [/quote]
I think I have that Pallbearers article .. It's my 10th Wedding anniversary ..but after this weekends festivities I can look it up and get back to you. [/quote]
Hi Mr King,

Did you get the time to get the article ?

Regards,

R.
Message: Posted by: Papa Legba (Sep 3, 2018 01:33PM)
I have a question regarding this type of effect. I will use MMs International Travel Mystery to illustrate my point.
The first instruction is...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"start on any flag that has some 'yellow' in it".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I prefer the less prescriptive...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"start on ANY flag"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The second instruction now becomes...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"now move to the nearest flag with some yellow in it"....and the effect continues as normal.


Is there a problem with this approach that I am not seeing?
Message: Posted by: Papa Legba (Sep 4, 2018 03:22AM)
Here's a very interesting thread concerning "Room for Doubt" by Tony Spina of Tannen's Magic...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=143472
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Art
Message: Posted by: Papa Legba (Sep 4, 2018 07:03AM)
And yet another informative thread here...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=75522
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Message: Posted by: Papa Legba (Sep 4, 2018 01:10PM)
I have been informed, in another thread, that "Hollywood Squares" is another effect on the same principle. It can be found in "The Intrepid Rogues Manual of Deception" by Atlas Brookings.
Message: Posted by: saxonia (Sep 5, 2018 03:41AM)
One of the threads referenced by art85y (thanks!) mentioned that George Blake had a series of articles on tape recorder magic in "Magigram" in the 70's. After a little search, I found two articles in this series that could be interesting for those who are interested in the principle. They can be found in Magigram vol. 9, issue 2 (Oct 1976) and vol. 9, issue 4 (December 1976).

The article series is titled "Tape Recorder Magic". Well, but who uses a tape recorder nowadays? The advantage of the good old tape recorder was that a tape is obviously immutable. Modern devices such as mobile phones that can play recorded voice are no good replacement, because everyone knows that they can react to actions of the performer. A pre-recorded YouTube video that is displayed at the spectator's device could be more convincing.
Message: Posted by: Papa Legba (Sep 5, 2018 06:40AM)
I see your point re. tape recorder vs mobile phone but given that the mentalist has his back turned and never sees the volunteer's starting position it can still work, imho.

For anybody planning to record their own "voice from another world" here is a free website that will convert your uploaded audio file to a distorted voice of your choice...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
https://voicechanger.io/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
check out the top row, third sample from the left, That's the one I will be using, its absoluteley the sound I want for my effect.

Bottom row, centre sample is a cool sci-fi voice.
Message: Posted by: Thomas Henry (Sep 12, 2018 03:27AM)
Hi Gang,

While searching for something else last night, I ran across a piece I read some forty-five years ago which may be of interest with regard to the original question. It's a 3-by-3 approach with removals. I'm pretty sure I saw Max Maven do something similar before.

Anyway, you'll find it in Martin Gardner, [i]New Mathematical Diversions from Scientific American[/i], (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1971), pp. 105-107.

Thomas Henry
Message: Posted by: murf (Sep 19, 2018 10:59AM)
I just ran across this at Lybrary.com <https://www.lybrary.com/interactive-matrix-formula-p-922653.html>, and it looks like it might be worth checking into: Interactive Matrix Formula.

Murf
Message: Posted by: Papa Legba (Sep 20, 2018 08:28PM)
Thanks Murf.
Message: Posted by: Radek (Sep 22, 2018 06:48AM)
Hi all,

I finally decided to go for "two guns" by Neale in a love affair storytelling approach for the magic challenge I will be part of in two months.
Anyone has some tips on the way to handle this trick ?

Any advice would be welcome in MP.

Cheers,

R.
Message: Posted by: hcs (Oct 10, 2018 11:04AM)
Edited. HCS
Message: Posted by: docguitarman (Mar 23, 2021 03:56PM)
[quote]On Sep 19, 2018, murf wrote:
I just ran across this at Lybrary.com <https://www.lybrary.com/interactive-matrix-formula-p-922653.html>, and it looks like it might be worth checking into: Interactive Matrix Formula.

Murf [/quote]

Thanks Murf. Does anyone have a review of the lybrary ebook?
Thanks
Phil
Message: Posted by: docguitarman (Mar 23, 2021 04:00PM)
Hello all,

I recall having seen the TV shows mentioned in this thread when I was a bit younger! THis thread has rekindled my interest.

It was mentioned that "More Self-Working Card Tricks" by Fulves has the matrix explained. Indeed "Hex Squared" is trick #65 on page 96.

I am pondering ways to heighten the effect by laying out the cards by using Pateo to get the wanted m****d card to the desired location. Since the layout looks like a game and using a game token to move on the grid fits the theme. Taking turns to select cards fits the "game" theme also.

Phil
Message: Posted by: marklock (May 6, 2021 04:43PM)
I did a version of Hex Squared using a bookshelf backdrop for a Zoom show. People selected qualities of books to move around. It worked well!

M
Message: Posted by: ringmaster (Aug 27, 2021 08:22PM)
Https://learnmagicstore.com/instant-download/hex-squared-by-karl-fulves
Message: Posted by: docguitarman (Aug 27, 2021 09:12PM)
[quote]On Aug 27, 2021, ringmaster wrote:
Https://learnmagicstore.com/instant-download/hex-squared-by-karl-fulves [/quote]

That looks like a Chinese rip-off site. All downloads and incredibly low prices for effects that cost much more from legit sites.