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Topic: Who would get the money in a real game?
Message: Posted by: Maestro (Oct 19, 2018 08:16PM)
Who would win the money in a real cash game, Harry Lorayne or Daniel Madison?

Thanks,
Maestro
Message: Posted by: ssibal (Oct 19, 2018 11:40PM)
What game? Who else ( if anyone ) is playing?
Message: Posted by: Peterson (Oct 20, 2018 01:45AM)
Doc
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Oct 26, 2018 05:49AM)
Harry couldnít get the money, Daniel Madison Iím not sure if he really ever played. Doc used to be able to get the money but since he havenít played in a while Iím not sure if he could any longer. Not playing and not practicing will hinder anyoneís chances of winning.
Message: Posted by: AMcD (Oct 26, 2018 08:40AM)
What country? What place? What game? What environment? What stake? Casino? Private? Club? Partners? Single-o? Plastic cards? Cut Card? Cash? Chips?

There are dozens of factors. Dozens of cases. I would get every penny you have in my environment, I wouldn't move a finger in a casino.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Oct 26, 2018 12:46PM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2018, AMcD wrote:

What country? What place? What game? What environment? What stake? Casino? Private? Club? Partners? Single-o? Plastic cards? Cut Card? Cash? Chips?

There are dozens of factors. Dozens of cases...[/quote]

Oh, c'mon AMcD. You're talking about the real world...this is the [i]Gambling Spot[/i].

I learned from the best experts on DVDs, on lecture webinars and in books. I have been practicing my Zarrow shuffle, Center and Bottom deals for the prescribed several years and they are undetectable and would get the money according to every "advertised" gambling expert (including make-believe hustlers and rounders) I have ever spoken with. Now are you suggesting that in a broader context, in order to use these moves in a real game, I have to take into consideration [i]all[/i] these other factors and perhaps even more?

Are you crazy? My moves are undetectable...I have fooled some of the top WSOP players with my demo moves. Further, I have a certificate of completion from the [i]Rounders School of Hustling[/i] that says I am officially a "Gambling Expert."

Are you trying to burst my bubble? Are you saying this is all different when hustling actual games? :eek:

[quote] I would get every penny you have in my environment, I wouldn't move a finger in a casino. [/quote]

AMcD, you have got to stop being so forthright. Objectivity on the [i]Gambling Spot?[/i] Be serious. I can't handle all this real-world stuff. Keep in mind, objective reality is not my strong suit.

(Oh, I think I'm going to have to take a nap after all this.) :P

However...getting back to the specific question originally posed, (Lorraine or Madison?), Have you taken into consideration that Madison is an Erdnase Expert and has appeared on national TV. Come to think of it, Lorraine is a Memory Expert and also has appeared on national TV.

Now I'm really confused. :confused:

P.S. Nice to see you posting again AMcD. Why don't you make a habit of it? :yippee:
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Oct 26, 2018 04:36PM)
Harry might can demonstrate a move but I actually doubt that he would have the heart to really do a move in a game, now demonstrating a move, yes. Iíve seen him in action so Iím not guessing what Iím talking about, I know what Iím talking about. I watched him many a times while I was studying with Gene Maze, Wesley James, Ken krenzel, Frank Garcia and the list goes on. Madison I never met.
Message: Posted by: RS1963 (Nov 1, 2018 06:59PM)
Erdnase. Well if he were still alive I presume could
Message: Posted by: disgruntledpuffin (Nov 2, 2018 04:31PM)
Any of the above guys could get the money in a casino game, if they knew how. Magicians, particularly at The Gambling Spot, greatly over estimate and romanticise the amount of skill and sleight of hand involved in real world cheating.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Nov 2, 2018 04:46PM)
[quote]On Nov 2, 2018, disgruntledpuffin wrote:
....Any of the above guys could get the money in a casino game, if they knew how.... [/quote]

Genius level deduction.
Message: Posted by: disgruntledpuffin (Nov 2, 2018 05:34PM)
Badly worded, I feel. What I mean is, getting the money in a casino environment requires a small amount of knowledge, then having the balls to apply that knowledge. It's not a question of their sleight of hand skill, which I believe is what the OP was getting at.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 2, 2018 06:36PM)
[quote]On Nov 2, 2018, disgruntledpuffin wrote:
Badly worded, I feel. What I mean is, getting the money in a casino environment requires a small amount of knowledge, then having the balls to apply that knowledge. It's not a question of their sleight of hand skill, which I believe is what the OP was getting at. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 2, 2018 06:47PM)
[quote]On Nov 2, 2018, disgruntledpuffin wrote:

Any of the above guys could get the money in a casino game, if they knew how. Magicians, particularly at The Gambling Spot, greatly over estimate and romanticise the amount of skill and sleight of hand involved in real world cheating. [/quote]

Well...do you know how to get the money in a casino environment? Have your ever done so?

Okay, you are probably correct on your statement but for the wrong reasons. Also consider the fact that most people have no desire to cheat a casino. It is dangerous and not an easy task.

[quote]On Nov 2, 2018, disgruntledpuffin wrote:

...What I mean is, getting the money in a casino environment requires a small amount of knowledge, then having the balls to apply that knowledge. It's not a question of their sleight of hand skill, which I believe is what the OP was getting at. [/quote]

????? I think the hole you are digging yourself is getting deeper and deeper. ;) You almost have it. Successfully beating casinos over time does require knowledge and skill, sometimes considerable knowledge and skill. But it is different skill and knowledge. However, it is true that sleight of hand is little used at this level. However, sleight of hand is little used in casino poker games also. That doesn't mean that a great deal of knowledge and skill is not necessary. It in fact is...at least if one looks to be very successful over time.
Message: Posted by: disgruntledpuffin (Nov 2, 2018 07:29PM)
[quote]On Nov 2, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:

Well...do you know how to get the money in a casino environment? Have your ever done so?[quote]


Yes. I work Surveillance at one of the busiest casinos in London. Investigating casino cheats is how I pay my bills. I see what gets the money.

No, I have never cheated myself. I threw in the odd move here and there to get a feel for the timing and heat when I was still a dealer. A peek for no reason, a brief without knowing the identity of the slug,zarrowing one grab of a multi pass dilution shuffle. Stupid? Yes. Scary? As hell.

Cheers
Message: Posted by: Bobbycash (Nov 3, 2018 03:10AM)
So this brings up a somewhat interesting point, yes there are some absolute maniacs that will go for the money on the boldest way possible, but is that characteristic of the modern day cheater? I for one have no idea. When I started learning about gambling I was mainly interested in the sleight of hand techniques, but over the years have progressed to learning the maths behind the various games as well as learning the strategy behind them. Itís taken a long time, and Iím not there yet as to being sophisticated with the games I enjoy (poker and blackjack...trying to learn Gin and Craps but some of the resources for this are difficult in terms of strategy). But I am afforded the luxury of it being a somewhat academic exercise (I donít need/nor have the desire to put what Iíve learnt to the test), but I would be very interested to hear what people think the average/normal cheater is.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 3, 2018 08:51AM)
[quote]On Nov 2, 2018, disgruntledpuffin wrote:

...What I mean is, getting the money in a casino environment requires a small amount of knowledge, then having the balls to apply that knowledge. It's not a question of their sleight of hand skill... [/quote]

Well it could be a question of sleight of hand skill, but usually not. Sleight of hand is not that applicable in the casino environment. Could be at times though.

Cheats with a small amount of knowledge and big balls are called Yahoos or Desperados in my neck of the woods. They are always getting caught or bringing down a lot of heat on themselves.

Since you work in surveillance, is it possible that the cheats you spot, more or less the obvious ones, are the only ones you spot. Do you think maybe, just maybe, some of the better or more sophisticated cheats, the ones with greater skill and knowledge are getting by you and perhaps going over your head at times.

Just a thought of course and possibly something to consider. :pout:
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Nov 3, 2018 10:05AM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
Since you work in surveillance, is it possible that the cheats you spot, more or less the obvious ones, are the only ones you spot. Do you think maybe, just maybe, some of the better or more sophisticated cheats, the ones with greater skill and knowledge are getting by you and perhaps going over your head at times.
[/quote]
Before you (disgruntledpuffin) answer the question that Cag posited to you in his post ... remember that [i]hubris[/i] is the bane of both hustlers, and those who believe they could never be hustled!

[b]Pro-Tip[/b] ... The correct answer to Cag's question is [i]"yes"[/i].
Message: Posted by: disgruntledpuffin (Nov 3, 2018 12:32PM)
Mr Bones, although you said it in an unnecessarily condescending way, you are quite correct. Obviously my answer is yes. There are always cheats getting by surveillance in one way or another and I'm not arrogant enough to think we catch them all.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what we're debating here. The OP asked which of the three people would get the money in the real world. My answer? Any of them could. Most real world cheating in casinos is as rank as it gets. I'm not sure why anyone would take issue with my position on this.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Nov 3, 2018 02:35PM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2018, disgruntledpuffin wrote:

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what we're debating here. The OP asked which of the three people would get the money in the real world. My answer? Any of them could.[/quote]

I agree. No question that Dan Madison, Harry Lorraine, DOC and Erdnase could get the money in the real world. Just look at all the moves they have demonstrated in books and on videos.

[quote]Most real world cheating in casinos is as rank as it gets. I'm not sure why anyone would take issue with my position on this. [/quote]

I agree again. Obviously the really serious and subtle big money cheating occurs in home games, not in casinos.
Message: Posted by: disgruntledpuffin (Nov 3, 2018 03:10PM)
[quote]On Nov 3, 2018, Cagliostro wrote:
[quote]On Nov 3, 2018, disgruntledpuffin wrote:

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what we're debating here. The OP asked which of the three people would get the money in the real world. My answer? Any of them could.[/quote]

I agree. No question that Dan Madison, Harry Lorraine, DOC and Erdnase could get the money in the real world. Just look at all the moves they have demonstrated in books and on videos.

[quote]Most real world cheating in casinos is as rank as it gets. I'm not sure why anyone would take issue with my position on this. [/quote]

I agree again. Obviously the really serious and subtle big money cheating occurs in home games, not in casinos. [/quote]

I can't work out if you're trolling me for your own amusement or if you actually think I believe that Harry Lorayne et al could walk into a casino do "moves", however that might be applied and walk out with money.

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that MOST (go back and check, I actually used that word)casino cheating requires no skill whatsoever, just the requisite knowledge. I could explain a red/black or colour up scam to Harry Lorayne and we'd have a good chance of being able to pull it off that same day.
Message: Posted by: diamondjack (Mar 25, 2019 05:42AM)
No one could get the money in a casino game. They don't let the players deal. You would have to be in on it with the dealer. And most dealers don't know anything about cheating, especially with casinos going to automatic shufflers.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Mar 26, 2019 09:13AM)
[quote]On Mar 25, 2019, diamondjack wrote:
No one could get the money in a casino game. They don't let the players deal. You would have to be in on it with the dealer. And most dealers don't know anything about cheating, especially with casinos going to automatic shufflers. [/quote]

Really???

Sounds impossible for [i]anyone[/i] to get the money under those circumstances, even card table champions like Madison and Lorayne.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 26, 2019 10:36AM)
I think Harry would go on tilt and Danial would get the money. :rolleyes:
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Mar 26, 2019 02:24PM)
I don't think Madison could get the money at this point in his career. Not that he doesn't have the skill and consummate artistry to do so, but simply because he is too well known.

Don't forget he has been beating high stakes poker games since he was 14 or 15 years of age, so although he has a tremendous amount of experience and skill under fire for high stakes gambling, he simply is too recognizable.

In order for him to beat these big money casino games, he would have to wear a disguise. Maybe if he went in as a drag queen no one would recognize him. Additionally a heavy application of makeup to cover his neck and facial tattoos, a pair of high heel stiletto shoes and a sexy dress...yes, then he could probably escape detection and win the money.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 26, 2019 04:15PM)
One does not necessarily have to cheat to get the money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-JzdRJCcsg
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Mar 26, 2019 04:49PM)
No, one does not have to cheat to get the money. One can sing and do so. If one can sing and dance it is even better.

This begs the question. Can Lorayne or Madison sing. Moreover, can either or both sing and dance. And even if they can, does anyone really care?

Truth be told, the reason some deal bottoms and seconds is simply because they can't sing and dance.

This inside info is only available on [i]The Gambling Spot[/i].
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 26, 2019 08:28PM)
They both come blowing their own trumpet. :)
Message: Posted by: danny (Apr 15, 2019 10:38AM)
[quote]On Mar 26, 2019, Cagliostro wrote:
I don't think Madison could get the money at this point in his career. Not that he doesn't have the skill and consummate artistry to do so, but simply because he is too well known.

Don't forget he has been beating high stakes poker games since he was 14 or 15 years of age, so although he has a tremendous amount of experience and skill under fire for high stakes gambling, he simply is too recognizable.

In order for him to beat these big money casino games, he would have to wear a disguise. Maybe if he went in as a drag queen no one would recognize him. Additionally a heavy application of makeup to cover his neck and facial tattoos, a pair of high heel stiletto shoes and a sexy dress...yes, then he could probably escape detection and win the money. [/quote]

Hahahahaha!!!
Message: Posted by: reese (Apr 16, 2019 02:29AM)
[quote]On Mar 26, 2019, tommy wrote:
They both come blowing their own trumpet. :) [/quote]
I tink they both ice holes man.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 16, 2019 08:47AM)
I would get the money by running the game: There are those who gamble and there are those who make a living from those who gamble.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Apr 16, 2019 09:17AM)
[quote]On Apr 16, 2019, tommy wrote:
I would get the money by running the game: There are those who gamble and there are those who make a living from those who gamble. [/quote]

Somewhat like the California gold rush of the 1800s in the US. Most prospectors made no money or went broke looking for gold. The people who made most of the money were those who sold the prospectors their equipment to pan for gold and those that offered them "games of chance" and bordellos. That is where they blew any money they had.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Apr 18, 2019 07:06AM)
As the rich German in Spain once told me ďMoney is made from nothing: In different places, people are looking for different things. If one can see the things those people are looking for and put those people and those things together, that is how money is made.Ē

Benjamin "Bugsy" Siegel I guess was one who saw things like that until somebody shot his eyeball out.