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Topic: MagicArtifacts.com ??
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Oct 23, 2018 09:05PM)
WTH is going on?
Are these effects/designs Public Domain?
Did they "belong" to Outlaw and Outlaw sold them?
Is this cool with everyone?


https://www.magicartifacts.com/product/knocker/
Message: Posted by: afinemesh (Oct 23, 2018 10:28PM)
. . .one man gathers what another man spills. . .
Message: Posted by: scottishpiper51 (Oct 23, 2018 11:07PM)
If Iím not mistaken, this is a case of a talented and creative maker that once designed and produced pieces for OE who is now in business for himself.
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Oct 23, 2018 11:13PM)
[quote]On Oct 23, 2018, scottishpiper51 wrote:
If Iím not mistaken, this is a case of a talented and creative maker that once designed and produced pieces for OE who is now in business for himself. [/quote]
But these are not his designs....
Message: Posted by: afinemesh (Oct 23, 2018 11:23PM)
They resemble OE pieces, but are not OE pieces. I don't see what the problem is.
Message: Posted by: scottishpiper51 (Oct 24, 2018 06:37AM)
[quote]On Oct 23, 2018, the Sponge wrote:
[quote]On Oct 23, 2018, scottishpiper51 wrote:
If Iím not mistaken, this is a case of a talented and creative maker that once designed and produced pieces for OE who is now in business for himself. [/quote]
But these are not his designs.... [/quote]

Do you care to elaborate?
Message: Posted by: Winks (Oct 24, 2018 10:22AM)
By what I read, these are unique to this designer and those making them. The internals are nothing like the OE designs and the appearance is singular. I don't see a problem either.
Message: Posted by: scottishpiper51 (Oct 24, 2018 12:06PM)
No problems here, either. Iíve seen their stuff in person and itís high quality. Their table was very busy at Bizarre Hauntings. Itís great to see a designer doing well on his own.

The novelty reflected in such designs as their HH Holmes desk cabinet is not to be understated.
Message: Posted by: Sean Xem (Oct 24, 2018 12:56PM)
While the new ideas look great, I have to agree with Sponge that some of the reverse-engineered (or newly engineered) ideas that are originally from Tim W. are disappointing to see. Arenít these Timís unique ideas and hard work? The Knocker is a perfect example.
Message: Posted by: Winks (Oct 24, 2018 01:09PM)
Don't agree as that would apply to almost anything out there. The rapping hand, for example, has been around for at least 100 years. Someone put electronics into it. Does that mean it is ineligible to be done? If the door knocker has been newly engineered, then that is fine. You cannot copyright a concept.
Message: Posted by: afinemesh (Oct 24, 2018 01:49PM)
Right.

How about Out of this World? There are numerous "magic" versions and numerous "bizarre" versions!

We gonna start a Paul Curry thread?
Message: Posted by: scottishpiper51 (Oct 24, 2018 01:49PM)
ďIf I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants.Ē
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Oct 24, 2018 03:14PM)
[quote]On Oct 23, 2018, afinemesh wrote:
They resemble OE pieces, but are not OE pieces. I don't see what the problem is. [/quote]

Looking at ebay I see lots of magic coming from China that "resembles" certain effects but are not those effects. You cool with that too?
Someone made some cards that "resembled" elite cuss cards but were not elite cuss cards. No problem, right?
Maybe I'll make an effect with musket balls and a box. It'll "resemble" a Gemini Effects effect, but will not be. No problem, right?
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Oct 24, 2018 03:19PM)
[quote]On Oct 24, 2018, Winks wrote:
By what I read, these are unique to this designer...[/quote]
Really? OE was selling this knocker before he came on board.

https://www.magicartifacts.com/product/departed/
Is this unique to this "creative" designer?
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Oct 24, 2018 03:25PM)
[quote]On Oct 24, 2018, afinemesh wrote:
Right.

How about Out of this World? There are numerous "magic" versions and numerous "bizarre" versions!

We gonna start a Paul Curry thread? [/quote]
No. My post/question is very specific. Try to focus and stay on topic.

But the lack of responses from the "bizarre community" is worrysome to me.
Message: Posted by: afinemesh (Oct 24, 2018 03:27PM)
[quote]On Oct 24, 2018, the Sponge wrote:
[quote]On Oct 23, 2018, afinemesh wrote:
They resemble OE pieces, but are not OE pieces. I don't see what the problem is. [/quote]

Looking at ebay I see lots of magic coming from China that "resembles" certain effects but are not those effects. You cool with that too?
Someone made some cards that "resembled" elite cuss cards but were not elite cuss cards. No problem, right?
Maybe I'll make an effect with musket balls and a box. It'll "resemble" a Gemini Effects effect, but will not be. No problem, right? [/quote]

How about Out of this World? There are numerous "magic" versions and numerous "bizarre" versions!

We gonna start a Paul Curry thread?

I beg to differ. . .this is exactly the topic. If you wanna talk about only what you wanna talk about without any response, then go live in a vacuum.
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Oct 24, 2018 03:41PM)
[quote]On Oct 24, 2018, afinemesh wrote:

We gonna start a Paul Curry thread?

I beg to differ. . .this is exactly the topic. If you wanna talk about only what you wanna talk about without any response, then go live in a vacuum. [/quote]

no. sigh. this isn't the same thing. The issue is mainly about design, art. I gave examples of the same thing which you chose to ignore.

But to answer your question, it appears the magic community considers the plot of "Out of This World" to be public domain. Thus, the many variations.
And also part of my question asked. So, now you'll respond to my questions, right?


Again, hoping more (and perhaps the builder) will chime in.
Message: Posted by: Winks (Oct 24, 2018 04:04PM)
My own opinion is I see nothing wrong in taking a concept and developing new engineering for it. Look at how many spirit bells are out there. All the same concept yet all have - hopefully - different engineering. Now if I copy someone else's engineering and produce that, then yes, that is not acceptable.
Message: Posted by: afinemesh (Oct 24, 2018 04:14PM)
That's your opinion. And, I've given mine.

As you state, let's see if anyone else has anything to say.
Message: Posted by: Sean Xem (Oct 24, 2018 05:08PM)
[quote]On Oct 24, 2018, Winks wrote:
Don't agree as that would apply to almost anything out there. The rapping hand, for example, has been around for at least 100 years. Someone put electronics into it. Does that mean it is ineligible to be done? If the door knocker has been newly engineered, then that is fine. You cannot copyright a concept. [/quote]

Never said it could be copyrighted, nor mentioned the legality behind it. Iím talking simply about whatís right and whatís wrong, and maybe more so about whatís creative and whatís not. Weíre comparing an electronic door knocker to an electronic door knocker.....with a similar design, a similar shape, and a similar stand. The various spirit bells I've seen at least have differing designs that make them unique.

Regarding OOTW variants, is Tim at least credited? Cause you canít tell me OOTW variant effects are not credited to Curry

Iím sure Chris is a nice guy, and I may very well purchase some of his more original effects. But I definitely see the points made by the original poster
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Oct 24, 2018 05:37PM)
[quote]On Oct 24, 2018, afinemesh wrote:
That's your opinion. And, I've given mine.

As you state, let's see if anyone else has anything to say. [/quote]


[quote]On Oct 24, 2018, the Sponge wrote:
[quote]On Oct 23, 2018, afinemesh wrote:
They resemble OE pieces, but are not OE pieces. I don't see what the problem is. [/quote]

Looking at ebay I see lots of magic coming from China that "resembles" certain effects but are not those effects. You cool with that too?
Someone made some cards that "resembled" elite cuss cards but were not elite cuss cards. No problem, right?
Maybe I'll make an effect with musket balls and a box. It'll "resemble" a Gemini Effects effect, but will not be. No problem, right? [/quote]
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Oct 24, 2018 05:43PM)
[quote]On Oct 24, 2018, Sean Gem wrote:

Never said it could be copyrighted, nor mentioned the legality behind it. Iím talking simply about whatís right and whatís wrong, and maybe more so about whatís creative and whatís not. Weíre comparing an electronic door knocker to an electronic door knocker.....with a similar design, a similar shape, and a similar stand. The various spirit bells I've seen at least have differing designs that make them unique.
[/quote]
he's even calling it the same thing!

and not just this knocker....
https://www.magicartifacts.com/product/1692-salem-witch-box/
https://www.magicartifacts.com/product/departed/
Message: Posted by: Wizard of Oz (Oct 24, 2018 07:48PM)
Boy oh boy this is a thin line, and I don't want to walk it. But both sides of the argument have merit I think depending on the back story.

First, is this the creator who Rick introduced after everyone else refused to work for him? If so, how does he figure into claiming the reproduction rights to these effects? "The Departed" is "The Departed." It is a modern effect with a distinct plot, characterization, and concept that originated from Outlaw Effects. Does Rick still have "ownership" of this effect, (I put that in quotes because I could pretty much guarantee there is no legal copyright or patent)? Or did he ever? Is it Tim's creation? So many questions.

Still, in the instance of The Departed prop and effect - for the sake of discussion - I liken recreating it and selling it as offering a NEW version of Dean's Box. That prop was, and is, a unique creation and plot. Like The Departed, which took the Spirit Bell to another level, Dean's Box evolved the Spirit Cabinet. There are plenty of blatant knock-offs of Dean's Box, but that's not the issue here. The issue is re-issuing a unique creation and plot with different manufacturing. If done with permission of the original creator, or estate...cool. If not, well, again we have a very thin line.

Regarding the mentions of classic effects, props, and plots like the spirit bell, and OOTW...very sound examples...we probably need to discuss timetables, legalities, and our own honor system - or lack thereof - in magic.

Adding more mud to the mix, look at all of the tiring versions of the smoke at your fingertips concept. I count at least a half dozen expensive units that claimed to be the best. The are all unique indeed, but who was the first to think of this idea? And does it matter?

As I began, I end. This is a very fine line, and I prefer to walk along side it and offer non-judgemental observations.
Message: Posted by: Mad0hatter (Oct 24, 2018 11:50PM)
Gemini Artifacts has acquired the rights to several of Outlaws effects, how do we know this isn't another such case? Roth's name is basically mud in most circles selling rights to trust-able dealers would be his best chance to keep making money.
Message: Posted by: Vic Nadata (Oct 25, 2018 07:39AM)
I think the issue is even if Dr. X purchased the rights to produce these, they were not Outlaws to sell.

These were made by Tim and Karl and they still hold the rights to produce them.

Same has happened to me from Outlaw, when that happened (if some recall) I did not produce them and actually gave the rights back to the rightful owner.

This is obviously not a design change, but a copy all the way down to the exact name.
Message: Posted by: Sean Xem (Oct 25, 2018 07:57AM)
[quote]On Oct 25, 2018, Vic Nadata wrote:

This is obviously not a design change, but a copy all the way down to the exact name. [/quote]

Exactly, Vic.

Which is why Iím perplexed that people in the community are commenting that this is OK. Even IF it is legally Ok, does that make it right?

Not trying to stir the pot here......just have an immense amount of respect for our creators
Message: Posted by: cocomax (Oct 25, 2018 11:08AM)
In order for a design to belong to a company that company must have have the design work done by paid employees and I was never was an employee of Outlaw. Outlaw never paid me to design anything, so my designs still belong to myself and Karl still owns his designs. Outlaw was only the store that sold them and not the designer or builder.

Not only did Rick act like he owned everything I designed he acted like he owned me. He has sold "rights" to my items to people along with the "rights to have Tim build the item". He would guarantee that I would build the items for the new "rights" holder at a crazy low price that Rick and the new rights holder set. All this without me knowing about it, until after the deal was done. That all smells like slavery to me.

After I left Outlaw Rick did in fact set out to copy all my designs and continue to sell them, without me. The plan was Dr X (MagicArtifacts.com) was to make copies of what Karl and myself supplied Outlaw in the past.

Yes, I do own my designs, however because I do not have a patent on the designs I can not use the law to protect my designs. Other builders can make copies of my designs and I am powerless to stop them.

MagicArtifacts owns their designs as well.

I am a very skilled builder and if I wanted I could start building copies of other builders products, I might be able to build a much better version. These would be my designs, but also copies of another persons work at the same time. Unless the builder I am coping have a patent that I am breaking there is nothing they can do to stop me. I do not behave in such a manor because I have respect for other builders and want them to do well. I even help other builders. I have helped many other builders solve complex problems and find the parts they needed without getting paid, most builders in the magic community I consider good friends.

When another builder shows me little or no respect, I make a note of that.
Message: Posted by: scottishpiper51 (Oct 25, 2018 11:20AM)
I honestly didnít know the details of who owns the rights to produce these props.

While I support the continued evolution of our Art through innovation that is often based on established effects/props, I certainly donít support the outright theft of creative property.

It pains me to see this happening.
Message: Posted by: cocomax (Oct 25, 2018 11:38AM)
I have the highest respect for Gemini Artifacts as an example of how to do things in a respectful and honest manor.

Looking at the Gemini web site you can clearly see, these things are Tim Wisseman items, these are Vic's items, and these are BC's items . . .
Everything is as clear as can be, there is no question as to who owns the rights to what.

Plus Vic is one of the most honest and fair minded person I have ever done business with.
Message: Posted by: scottishpiper51 (Oct 25, 2018 04:10PM)
[quote]On Oct 25, 2018, cocomax wrote:
I have the highest respect for Gemini Artifacts as an example of how to do things in a respectful and honest manor.

Looking at the Gemini web site you can clearly see, these things are Tim Wisseman items, these are Vic's items, and these are BC's items . . .
Everything is as clear as can be, there is no question as to who owns the rights to what.

Plus Vic is one of the most honest and fair minded person I have ever done business with. [/quote]

I wholeheartedly agree.
Message: Posted by: Sean Xem (Nov 2, 2018 07:17PM)
[quote]On Nov 2, 2018, the Sponge wrote:

oh, btw... a birdie told me he also sells a "key box" that holds 4 keys and some books. Very creative & original.

s [/quote]

Whatís the effect called? Boney Latch Mindsick Institute?? Or ďMuna Ď37, Ď38, Ď39?
Message: Posted by: Winks (Nov 27, 2018 05:05AM)
OK, I will likely take some heat for this, but so be it. I purchased a Knocker from Magick Artifacts (Chris Sipes). I know some of you feel he has produced items based on others' ideas. I didn't see it that way (how many versions of Out Of This World are out there - and still being made!!). My point is that Chris has produced an excellent product with exemplary customer service. Chris went way out of his way to make sure this one was working (the USPS damaged the first one and it didn't work when received - Chris paid for it to be sent back), even building a special shipping box for it and spending his Sunday afternoon making sure everything was working ok. He has made several major improvements over the one I saw that Roth had at ECSS several years ago. I am very pleased.

Would I buy from Magick Artifacts again? Yes. So, for any who were worried that he was in collusion with Roth or that the results would be the same, not with me they weren't. I look forward to what else he produces.
Message: Posted by: Godzilla (Nov 29, 2018 10:15PM)
WOW, nothing changes on Cafť ! My post on here, vanished !!!
Message: Posted by: Lo Pan (Nov 29, 2018 10:22PM)
Yup - mine too - and many other valid concerns of other users - itís sad
Message: Posted by: Darkness (Nov 30, 2018 08:00AM)
The fact is Chris Sipes aka Dr. X, was initially commissioned by Rick Rothís Outlaw, to knock off Tims ideas and designs, period. The intention was to carry on the product line when Tim left. Even though Roth and Sipes had no right to copy Tims creations. Tim didn't work for outlaw the same as I donít work for Vic. We make our own stuff and advertise it on their website. If I leave Vic you think he is going to get some other guy to copy my work and resell it? Yet people support Chris and buy his stuff?

Then when Outlaw imploded Sipes continued to manufacture Tims props, name and all, like he did at Outlaw. But now on his own website. These were not new ideas to Chris, he was just continuing copying Tims stuff like he had the right, Just because he was doing it before. This is all common knowledge and true. What part of any of that is fair or reasonable to the community? And on top of it, we are silenced? Are we not allow to speak the facts? And yes these are facts not acusations.

These are expensive, high quality, hand made items. When this kind of thing happens it hurts our industry. Creators will go further underground to protect the good stuff. You will be left with knock offs and second tier items.

And then we have another guy who supported Chris to sell on his site, until only very recently, after it imploded. He told me he had no clue about Chris Sipes copying Tims stuff. Like we have a lot of top tier suppliers and a guy who has serious ties in the industry as a creator, has no clue about other creators? In this micro small community? How can you trust or believe in people like that? I asked him to come here to denounce this behavior a week ago and he refuses. Yet others partner with this guy as he maintains a member in good standing?

We should not celebrate or encourage this negative behavior. I hope I am entitled to these comments and opinions.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Nov 30, 2018 12:26PM)
Hear hear darkness...
Message: Posted by: Vic Nadata (Nov 30, 2018 12:33PM)
Omg Amen!
Message: Posted by: Sean Xem (Nov 30, 2018 03:59PM)
Agreed agreed agreed, Darkness! Thank you for being brave enough to point this stuff out.

And my last 2 recent posts have vanished as well (Poof!)
Message: Posted by: Winks (Nov 30, 2018 10:07PM)
What about facts? Do they count? Tim Wissman did make the Knocker before Chris Sipes. Claude Alexander Conlin made the Knocker before Tim. Chris Sipes received the OK from Tim Wissman to go ahead and make his version of the Knocker.
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Nov 30, 2018 11:42PM)
[quote]On Nov 30, 2018, Winks wrote:
What about facts? Do they count? Tim Wissman did make the Knocker before Chris Sipes. Claude Alexander Conlin made the Knocker before Tim. Chris Sipes received the OK from Tim Wissman to go ahead and make his version of the Knocker. [/quote]
Facts?? There have been several pointed out you ignore/dismiss/other?

No one would confuse Tim's with Alexander's. You're hung up on the trick. It's more than that. Think of it as Art. Visually, it's a direct copy! The name - a copy, the method - same. Why aren't these items visible on the website anymore? (and it's NOT JUST THE KNOCKER) We know he is selling them- you told us so. What does that say? Darkness' assessment of why Dr. X started building is true.

He got the ok? said who, Chris? Notice he never came here to defend/address the situation. Funny, I don't see Tim mentioning that in his two posts in this thread. What does that tell you?

Finally, if Darkness is wrong, where is Chris' support? Where is the outrage people are falsely talking bad about him? It's mainly you. Look what Tim wrote, what Vic wrote.

I think deep down (or not so deep) you really know what's up.

As long as product is being delivered, few care.
Message: Posted by: Lo Pan (Dec 1, 2018 04:47AM)
FACT

[quote]On Oct 25, 2018, cocomax wrote:

After I left Outlaw Rick did in fact set out to copy all my designs and continue to sell them, without me. The plan was Dr X (MagicArtifacts.com) was to make copies of what Karl and myself supplied Outlaw in the past.

Yes, I do own my designs, however because I do not have a patent on the designs I can not use the law to protect my designs. Other builders can make copies of my designs and I am powerless to stop them.[/quote]

doesn't sound like permission to me - Magic artifacts is selling straight copies, ripoffs of actual artists original creations, its clearly unethical and unoriginal.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Dec 1, 2018 05:23AM)
If you support rip offs you are the major problem. Rip offs don't exist if there's no buyers. Looking at the rip offs I have to say, the visual designs are an anemic bland version of the originals...
Message: Posted by: Winks (Dec 1, 2018 09:37AM)
So where does one draw the line between rip off and public domain? If Tim was "copying" something some else previously did and if Chris had Tim's ok (and as that is what I was reliably told, I have to accept that at face value until I hear to the contrary from Tim himself), then where is the rip off? Isn't it like the Rapping Hand? How many versions of that has been done? By how many people? And, Dopps is a fantastic product. But how many other book tests are out there? Where does one draw the line? And I am asking to know, not to be argumentative in any way.

Also, when something is no longer being made, and the original person who made it either no longer wants to make any more or can make any more, is it piracy for someone else to make a similar item? Hopefully we can discuss this somewhat rationally rather than people just calling me names or stepping all over my character. I do not support piracy. Never have. Based on what I knew, this was not piracy. If I was mistaken about this or anything which I thought was "ok," so to speak, and I was wrong, then I won't use it. But when someone or several just start attacking me and name calling, rather than wanting to discuss it in a reasonable manner I tend to fight back.
Message: Posted by: Winks (Dec 1, 2018 09:43AM)
Lo Pan - was that TIM's original creation? Or was it someone else's?
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Dec 1, 2018 09:53AM)
[quote]On Dec 1, 2018, Winks wrote:
Lo Pan - was that TIM's original creation? Or was it someone else's? [/quote]
What THAT are you talking about? You seem to be fixated just on the knocker. Again it is a pattern. there is more than one item. Hobbs box, key box, The Departed was hidden on his site..

WHO said Tim gave permission? Why didn't Tim acknowledge that in his posts here?

What do you mean not being made anymore? Tim isn't dead. Tim has a website. Tim still makes things.
Message: Posted by: Lo Pan (Dec 1, 2018 10:26AM)
[quote]On Dec 1, 2018, Winks wrote:

I do not support piracy. Never havs. [/quote]

In this case you have supported and promoted piracy, there is nothing ďsimilarĒ about these items. They are copies which were being made to keep a failing and corrupt business afloat. These products are nothing like the rapping hand or book test examples you site, Dopps is an altogether original concept and method, thatís what makes it such a beautiful, valuable, ORIGINAL improvement on the book test, no one in thief right mind would ever accuse Professor BC of being a rip off. Please put down the cool aid, take a moment, use empathy and look at it from the perspective of a artist, like Tim and Carl, seeing a web site selling their stuff must be like walking into Walmart and seeing it on the shelves. They are not getting rich off of their creations Ė just contributing original items to a small community and they are clearly entitled to the respect that means that their creations are theirs and not to be copied and sold by anyone.
Message: Posted by: Winks (Dec 1, 2018 10:34AM)
I only bought the knocker. I don't know about the others. Some time back I asked if Tim was making any more of the knockers - I believe I asked Vic at ECSS - and I was told he was not. I had been ripped off by Roth - paying him at ECSS I for a knocker and then just having him skip with my money, so I wanted to replace it. Had Tim been making them again, I would have bought one from him. For less than I paid for this one. But he wasn't.

Chris himself told me he had Tim's ok to make the knocker. If that is a lie, then it becomes a while nother matter for me.
Message: Posted by: Pascal974 (Dec 1, 2018 10:47AM)
Https://www.geminiartifacts.com/collections/tim-wisseman/products/death-came-knocking
Message: Posted by: Lo Pan (Dec 1, 2018 12:55PM)
If Tim never made another of his door knockers again then that would be up to him and would add value to his original creations on the secondary market. It would not at any time be appropriate for someone else to start making and selling copies. If for example Timex stopped making a particular model watch which had been very popular and unique and original in design, then someone else started making a watch that looked and acted exactly like that original watch but maybe was Slightly different inside and sold them for even more then the original watch had cost then it would be a rip off, just another Chinese knock off so to speak.
Message: Posted by: cocomax (Dec 2, 2018 01:27AM)
This is what a knock off looks like:

http://www.outlaw-effects.com/store/golden-gun/the-departed.html
Message: Posted by: Darkness (Dec 2, 2018 06:44PM)
You may go to my facebook page later for additional details as they keep getting deleted here. Facebook does not do that. No wonder people leave.
Message: Posted by: Sean Xem (Dec 2, 2018 06:58PM)
Yup, Iíve stopped posting any lengthy opinions as theyíll just get deleted.

Ridiculous
Message: Posted by: the Sponge (Dec 2, 2018 07:38PM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2018, cocomax wrote:
This is what a knock off looks like:

http://www.outlaw-effects.com/store/golden-gun/the-departed.html [/quote]
MIC DROP!!!
:banana: :carrot:
Message: Posted by: justcookin (Dec 4, 2018 03:00AM)
Guys, this is one of the reasons why Dan started his LC-forum.