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Topic: Prediction Out Of This World ?
Message: Posted by: warren (Feb 10, 2019 01:28PM)
I was out with my wife on Saturday morning and knew that I would have a long wait and as the wife had mentioned she was going to take a book with her I picked up my copy of The Commercial Magic Of JC Wagner and took it with me for a read.

Whilst I think OOTW is a great effect it's not really something that I've bothered to study as I think there are effects out there that are much more practical for true working situations such as strolling, banquets etc.

That said having read and played about with JC Wagner's variation it certainly has a lot to offer and is something I can see myself using in informal situations for family and friends down the pub etc.

First the spectator shuffles the deck at the beginning of the effect and you the magician do not alter the order of the cards.
It uses only half a deck making it a much quicker effect.
The spectator gets to shuffle the deck half way through the effect.
It has a couple of nice convincers thrown in as with a lot of JC'S stuff.
Finally it has a kicker finish where the magician predicts that 3 cards will be in the wrong place.

Having played about with it to suit myself a bit better I found it just as easy to have just one miss and a the mate of the card as the selection which got me thinking, for those that are fans of the OOTW plot do you prefer to have a perfect red and black separation at the end of the effect or do you prefer to have a couple of misses with a kicker finish such as in the link provided ? ( Please note this is a different handling in the link to the one JC uses )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v96kQ_xyaH8&t=82s
Message: Posted by: Brad Ballew (Feb 11, 2019 10:25AM)
It's been a while since I read through it, but that looks just like Harry Lorayne's impromptu OOTW but with the kicker added in. I really like the kicker a lot and this makes me want to start performing it again. I think what's great about it is that it almost makes it look like it was a near hit. Perhaps something went wrong but it went mostly right and is still impressive. So there is this high and then slight low that it wasn't perfect and then skyrocketing high with the kicker.

I would be curious to read JC's handling. Is it that much different from what we see in the video?
Message: Posted by: warren (Feb 11, 2019 12:29PM)
[quote]On Feb 11, 2019, Brad Ballew wrote:
It's been a while since I read through it, but that looks just like Harry Lorayne's impromptu OOTW but with the kicker added in. I really like the kicker a lot and this makes me want to start performing it again. I think what's great about it is that it almost makes it look like it was a near hit. Perhaps something went wrong but it went mostly right and is still impressive. So there is this high and then slight low that it wasn't perfect and then skyrocketing high with the kicker.

I would be curious to read JC's handling. Is it that much different from what we see in the video? [/quote]

I'm with you I actually prefer the kicker finish as it definitely adds to the effect from the spectators perspective :)

I actually think it's better than the video clip I posted as an example mainly because first there's no altering of the cards after the spectator shuffles the deck and another thing that I forgot to mention is that there is no switching of anything at the end both of which can be seen in the video performance that I used as an example.

It's definitely worth looking up as JC was a superb magician :)
Message: Posted by: ImpromptuBoy (Feb 11, 2019 02:03PM)
I love this particular variation, the prediction makes the effect much stronger!
Message: Posted by: Wravyn (Feb 11, 2019 04:32PM)
Though the predictions are interesting, IMHO, predictions following the spectators success of separating the two colors takes it from a 'how did I do that' to a 'how did you do that'.
My experiences of demonstrating OOTW, the person separating the colors, since they are the one that's been handling the cards, are amazed with themselves, I was only the facilitator. If I add a prediction, I've turned it into a trick and about ME.
Message: Posted by: warren (Feb 11, 2019 04:57PM)
Wravyn you make some very good points I don't disagree with you as it's all down to personal preference and that all important presentation but personally I prefer the kicker finish.
Message: Posted by: Wravyn (Feb 12, 2019 11:11AM)
I agree Warren. If each and everyone of us did the tricks the exact same way, magic would be stagnant and incredibly boring.
The presentation needs to fit in with ourselves.
Message: Posted by: mlippo (Feb 13, 2019 09:26AM)
I'm probably in the minority here, but

I definitely like the idea of the prediction in the OOTW effects (although never really toyed with it).
What I DON'T like is any of these "impromptu" versions where you need to start by pulling cards from various parts of the pack, asking "red or black?"

Rather that performing it this way, I'd rather not do it at all.
Just to tell it all, my version of choice of OOTW type of effect is "Galaxy", by Paul Harris & Wyman Jones.

I know, there is a "guess the colour" phase at the beginning here as well, but

- it's very short (6-7 cards, not more)
- these cards are removed all at once from the centre of the pack
- it goes well with my patter, where I explain I am testing the person who I asked assistance from. It he/she goes particularely bad during this "test" it's quite funny, since I can interact with him/her much more

plus:

- no counting nor switching marker cards at a certain point
- spec may shuffle once at the beginning

Mark
Message: Posted by: warren (Feb 13, 2019 12:40PM)
Mlippo Galaxy does sound interesting I don't suppose you have a link to a performance so I can see the effect being performed.

I had a quick search and came across a post here on the Café that said "There's a quick set-up (stack) involved, prior to a legit riffle-shuffle, that starts off the routine"

That's a bit off putting for me hence me wanting to see a performance, that said I have a few questions that you might be able to answer.

Does Galaxy use a full deck as I personally prefer the variations that just use half a deck ?

Does a riffle shuffle have to be used by the spectator at the beginning of the effect or can they give the deck an over hand shuffle ?

Does Galaxy have the prediction kicker finish ?

Thanks
Message: Posted by: Brad Ballew (Feb 13, 2019 01:34PM)
Hi Warren,

I just purchased an ebook with Galaxy in it here: http://www.ammarmagic.com/paul-harris--the-act.html?viewfullsite=1

So I can answer your questions.

[quote]On Feb 13, 2019, warren wrote:

Does Galaxy use a full deck as I personally prefer the variations that just use half a deck ?

[/quote]

It does use a full deck however, I could see how it might be converted to a half deck trick. However, if your concern is time and procedure, this one is designed to move a bit quicker.

[quote]

Does a riffle shuffle have to be used by the spectator at the beginning of the effect or can they give the deck an over hand shuffle ?

[/quote]

Yes, it has to be a riffle shuffle. An overhand shuffle wouldn't work. Although variations of the riffle shuffle, i.e. rossetta shuffle would be fine

[quote]
Does Galaxy have the prediction kicker finish ?
[/quote]

No but it does end cleaner. For instance, there is no adding new black and red leader cards halfway through. There are only the black and red leader cards placed at the beginning and then you show the whole deck divided into red and black under the leader cards at the end.

There is a way to do this impromptu if you know how to separate a deck into red and black while running through it.
Message: Posted by: warren (Feb 13, 2019 01:56PM)
Brad thanks for providing the answers along with a link to the effect that's very helpful :)

Unfortunately it wouldn't be the best variation for me to use as I live in the UK where most spectators tend to use an over hand shuffle so as interesting as it sounds and as good as it no doubt is I will stick with JC Wagners handling for now as it meets all my requirements.
Message: Posted by: stickmondoo (Feb 14, 2019 05:07PM)
Just reading the title of this thread made me think you could have a prediction like shuffleboard. Separate the deck into first half Mem Stack second half Mem stack. Have them deal using the presentation from scripting magic then show that you had predicted the exact cards they would deal into one half. Wonder how that would play?
Message: Posted by: Brad Ballew (Feb 17, 2019 11:08PM)
[quote]On Feb 13, 2019, warren wrote:
Brad thanks for providing the answers along with a link to the effect that's very helpful :)

Unfortunately it wouldn't be the best variation for me to use as I live in the UK where most spectators tend to use an over hand shuffle so as interesting as it sounds and as good as it no doubt is I will stick with JC Wagners handling for now as it meets all my requirements. [/quote]

I think it's still worth taking a look at. I like how galaxy ends compared to other handlings. In fact I used the first half of Lorayne's impormptu out of this world and then used the ending of Galaxy. So it can be combined with other methods. In fact this is now my prefer handling.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Feb 18, 2019 08:43AM)
Gilding the lily doesn't always work.

Years ago someone sent me his variation of my OUT OF THIS UNIVERSE (you might want to check it out) - wherein he'd added a prediction. No way in the world I'd have published it - just wrong.
Message: Posted by: warren (Feb 18, 2019 01:11PM)
[quote]On Feb 17, 2019, Brad Ballew wrote:

I think it's still worth taking a look at. I like how galaxy ends compared to other handlings. In fact I used the first half of Lorayne's impormptu out of this world and then used the ending of Galaxy. So it can be combined with other methods. In fact this is now my prefer handling. [/quote]


If it were something I was looking to add to my proper working repertoire I definitely would look it up however this is just for informal situations so I'm more than happy with JC's handling as it meets all of my requirements and has the following benefits:

No set up required
The spectator can shuffle the deck any way they like ( especially useful in the UK where an overhand shuffle is used the most )
You do not alter the order of the cards in any way after the shuffle
It only uses half the deck which is another big selling point for me as the full deck version seems to drag
The spectator shuffles and deals the cards themselves half way through
There is no awkward switch of any cards at the end
You get the prediction kicker


That said I do have some of Harry Lorayne's dvd's one of which I'm sure includes his Out Of This Universe so if I can find it I'll probably have a look at it again as I'm a fan of Harry's work :)
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Mar 28, 2019 08:44AM)
Fan? And into card magic? And don't know Out Of This Universe? In CLOSE-UP MAGIC - 1962!!
Message: Posted by: warren (Mar 28, 2019 11:38AM)
[quote]On Mar 28, 2019, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Fan? And into card magic? And don't know Out Of This Universe? In CLOSE-UP MAGIC - 1962!! [/quote]

Ha ha as I said out of this world and it's variations isn't something I would look at usually as it's not practical for my usual working situations hence me not being familiar with out of this universe but if it has your name on it no doubt it's excellent :)
Message: Posted by: aabc (Mar 31, 2019 07:16AM)
OOTW is my favourite effect and always my closer in casual performances. From my experience, spectators will be most amazed that the don't get a single card wrong, so that's my preference. Using a prediction makes it seem like they did nothing and I was in control of their dealing the whole time, so I prefer to let it just be them amazed at what THEY have done.
Message: Posted by: warren (Apr 1, 2019 11:50AM)
[quote]On Mar 31, 2019, aabc wrote:
OOTW is my favourite effect and always my closer in casual performances. From my experience, spectators will be most amazed that the don't get a single card wrong, so that's my preference. Using a prediction makes it seem like they did nothing and I was in control of their dealing the whole time, so I prefer to let it just be them amazed at what THEY have done. [/quote]

Whilst I don't disagree with you I would say it's all down to presentation and if an effect fit's you or not :)
Message: Posted by: aabc (Apr 1, 2019 12:24PM)
[quote]On Apr 1, 2019, warren wrote:

Whilst I don't disagree with you I would say it's all down to presentation and if an effect fit's you or not :) [/quote]

True, and if you want to appear as if you have controlled all the cards they have dealt if it fits your style better, then a prediction is a great way to go. It's all down to personal preference really.
Message: Posted by: warren (Apr 1, 2019 02:20PM)
If it's good enough for the likes of Micheal Ammar that way then it's good enough for me too....As I mentioned it's not really something I would do in a proper working situation as there are much better suited effects but it's a nice effect for informal situations.
Message: Posted by: rtgreen (Apr 1, 2019 03:50PM)
I won't say anything about the prediction effect because I haven't studied it, but I will say don't discount this effect in real world situations. I wouldn't use it as an opener, but as a middle or a closer OTW is very very strong - especially if you set the deck in stages during the course of two or three other effects.
Message: Posted by: aabc (Apr 1, 2019 04:16PM)
I agree that it is great if you can set it up over the course of previous effects, but I find it somewhat hard to believe that OOTW can be anything but a closer. What can really follow the spectator shuffling and then dealing the red and black cards perfectly into two piles? Just my opinion :)
Message: Posted by: warren (Apr 1, 2019 04:16PM)
[quote]On Apr 1, 2019, rtgreen wrote:
I won't say anything about the prediction effect because I haven't studied it, but I will say don't discount this effect in real world situations. I wouldn't use it as an opener, but as a middle or a closer OTW is very very strong - especially if you set the deck in stages during the course of two or three other effects. [/quote]

No doubt it's a great effect but in the working situations I usually find myself in it's just not practical as I mainly work in loud environments with limited table space.
When I work I only include one card routine in my set's and I have routines that work very well for me so it's very unlikely that I would change them especially for tables, these days I tend to be more interested in honing these effects I may even add to them from time to time but I most definitely couldn't see me replacing them for OTW as good as it is.
Message: Posted by: aabc (Apr 1, 2019 04:22PM)
[quote]On Apr 1, 2019, warren wrote:

No doubt it's a great effect but in the working situations I usually find myself in it's just not practical as I mainly work in loud environments with limited table space.
When I work I only include one card routine in my set's and I have routines that work very well for me so it's very unlikely that I would change them especially for tables, these days I tend to be more interested in honing these effects I may even add to them from time to time but I most definitely couldn't see me replacing them for OTW as good as it is. [/quote]

Yes-OOTW requires specific conditions for it to get the best reactions, and whatever works for you in your situation is obviously what you should perform.
Message: Posted by: bdungey (Apr 10, 2019 08:29PM)
What a timely conversation. I enjoyed reading through this and have quite a bit of research ahead of me!