(Close Window)
Topic: Classical Force Outs
Message: Posted by: adrianrbf (Mar 3, 2019 12:57PM)
Practicing the classical force works best with spectators. ;) But what can be done if the classical force does not work? What are outs that you use and recommend?
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Mar 3, 2019 01:10PM)
Obviously --- control the card.
Message: Posted by: adrianrbf (Mar 3, 2019 01:18PM)
[quote]On Mar 3, 2019, Harry Lorayne wrote:
Obviously --- control the card. [/quote]
Well, yes, obviously. ;)

However, there's more than that in my question:

Do you have a certain routine prepared just in case? Maybe even with a setup? Or do you improvise?

And do you try the classical force again later? Or leave it for the moment and try again the next day?
Message: Posted by: jcroop (Mar 3, 2019 01:30PM)
Steven Keyl has an inexpensive download on Penguin where he goes over a number of outs or ways to ensure the correct card gets turned up called The Three Pillars of Classic Force Recovery.

There is some discussion on this in other threads on the Cafť which are helpful. A few I bookmarked. There may be more.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=201159&forum=2
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=82477&forum=2
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=75260&forum=2
Message: Posted by: Wravyn (Mar 3, 2019 02:10PM)
What kind of card tricks can you do that donít rely on a force? If the force card is not selected, one needs to change their plan. Harry Lorayne does have many books that have things that you can do, itís just a matter of how to Ďjazzí the situation using one of those tricks. I have about 3 different go to tricks that I do and it depends on the situation and setting as to what one I use when my cf doesnít hit.


Another book, available for download through Lybrary.com is Out, Precautions, and Challenges
https://www.lybrary.com/outs-precautions-and-challenges-p-27987.html
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Mar 3, 2019 02:55PM)
Adrianrbf: "A certain routine"??? Start reading the good stuff, buddy, and you'll have hundreds of effects/routines that you can do with an unknown selection. And without se-ups. You really have to start reading the good stuff!
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Mar 3, 2019 03:16PM)
Harry
Really well said.

I put out a book on many ways to force a card.
On Amazon so people could make comments about the book.
Some guy complained that I did not explain the classic force.
??????
I give a number of ways to force a card and it is a bad book?
I even offered a version that looks like the classic force and has advantages over the classic force.
And there are any number of books on classic forces. ????

And any guy that does a trick that the spec must take the right card is well?????
I must remember that this forum is for people that are learning about all this.
Well, I guess you are teaching them something about magic.

WELL DONE.

Al
Message: Posted by: Bobby Forbes (Mar 3, 2019 06:03PM)
I cannot remember where I saw this but its really clever. If the classic force misses the first time have another card selected and try again. As if you were having 2 cards selected in the first place. If one spectator hits the force then tell them you will find one card the easy way and one the hard way. Just turn over the first spectators card (the missed force) and say Bam! theres your card. That was the easy way (obviously a gag)... then continue your planned routine with the other (force) card.
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (Mar 3, 2019 08:40PM)
The Three Pillars of the Classic Force Recovery : Enjoy

http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/6781
Message: Posted by: Gary Plants (Mar 3, 2019 08:49PM)
[quote]On Mar 3, 2019, Bobby Forbes wrote:
I cannot remember where I saw this but its really clever. If the classic force misses the first time have another card selected and try again. As if you were having 2 cards selected in the first place. If one spectator hits the force then tell them you will find one card the easy way and one the hard way. Just turn over the first spectators card (the missed force) and say Bam! theres your card. That was the easy way (obviously a gag)... then continue your planned routine with the other (force) card. [/quote]

This is a brilliant idea of Tom Mullica.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 3, 2019 09:13PM)
[quote]On Mar 3, 2019, Wravyn wrote:
What kind of card tricks can you do that donít rely on a force? If the force card is not selected, one needs to change their plan. Harry Lorayne does have many books that have things that you can do, itís just a matter of how to Ďjazzí the situation using one of those tricks. I have about 3 different go to tricks that I do and it depends on the situation and setting as to what one I use when my cf doesnít hit.


Another book, available for download through Lybrary.com is Out, Precautions, and Challenges
https://www.lybrary.com/outs-precautions-and-challenges-p-27987.html [/quote]
It's also available for real. In real life. The real thing. For cheap.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Mar 3, 2019 09:23PM)
I hear that in the PDF version of Outs, Precautions and Challenges the entire text was replaced with the manuscript to Manos, The Hands of Fate.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 3, 2019 10:00PM)
Not sure what a PDF is but I'm pretty sure all electronic versions are still just Outs, Precautions, and Challenges.
It's a fun booklet.
Message: Posted by: PaulGreen (Mar 3, 2019 10:51PM)
Believe me, I know about the Classic Force! Harry Lorayne has given you AWESOME advice!!!

Respectfully,

Paul Green
Message: Posted by: DelMagic (Mar 3, 2019 11:46PM)
You can go into the Collins Force.

https://www.lybrary.com/stanley-collins-force-p-93994.html
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 4, 2019 10:43AM)
This is a strange question. If you miss a force, EVERY "pick a card" trick in magic is available to perform.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Mar 4, 2019 10:52AM)
Kinda' what I was trying to say up above.
Message: Posted by: adrianrbf (Mar 5, 2019 01:56AM)
[quote]On Mar 4, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
This is a strange question. If you miss a force, EVERY "pick a card" trick in magic is available to perform. [/quote]
Yes, I know this. That's why I did not ask what I CAN do in this situation, but what people actually do and recommend from their experience. As far as I understand this forum, this is its main goal: sharing experiences on what works, what does not work, and what works really extraordinarily well.

We all know that a lengthy series of several "pick a card"-tricks is rather boring. Thus, it is important to have effects that all begin the same, but evolve very differently. And some Not-pick-a-card-trick in between.

That having said, there are some interesting contributions in this thread, thanks to everybody.
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Mar 5, 2019 05:56AM)
Thanks to those that mentioned my Penguin download.

A comment I make in that download is that it isn't always feasible to just "switch to another trick." There may be several reasons for this. One reason might be that you're in the middle of a progressive routine where the card you need is specific and you can't just disregard the choice. Even for one-off tricks this may be the case. In one of my favorite routines, the CF happens at the END of the trick, not at the beginning. The groundwork has already been laid, and there is no way to "get out of it" if the force is missed.

Knowing what to do in any situation was key for me becoming comfortable with the CF. I spent several years refining some of those ideas, which were put into the download.

In the interest of getting this information "out there", anyone that downloads the video and honestly feels the information is not helpful, I'll gladly refund their money, just send me an email at: steven.keyl@keylenterprises.com (I can only refund the amount Penguin is paying me, I can't speak for their share) Although linked earlier, you can get it here: http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/6781
Message: Posted by: Stewart (Mar 7, 2019 06:39PM)
The answer to this question is very simple. Just use the force card as a key card. Get them to replace the wrongly selected card underneath the force card where you are still holding a break.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Mar 7, 2019 06:43PM)
Good Lord! Just CONTROL the selected card - via key card, via shuffling control, via anything --- just control the card.
Message: Posted by: adrianrbf (Mar 9, 2019 12:43PM)
[quote]On Mar 5, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote:
A comment I make in that download is that it isn't always feasible to just "switch to another trick."[/quote]
Thank you for you valuable insight and patricularly for showing that my question is less strange than some seem to think. I will definitely buy this download, as soon as a allow myself a new magical budget. ;-)
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Mar 9, 2019 01:21PM)
I understand that this forum is valuable for magicians new to the art.
That is, this is a place to share and learn.
So, here is a suggestion, do not construct a routine in which a force must work or the trick will fail.
There are at least a 1000 books out there with good material that will serve you well.
Harry has written several of them.
Message: Posted by: adrianrbf (Mar 9, 2019 02:32PM)
[quote]On Mar 9, 2019, Al Schneider wrote:
So, here is a suggestion, do not construct a routine in which a force must work or the trick will fail.[/quote]
Actually, my main concern is to practice the CF, and to do so I need a way out (or rather, several totally different ways out) if it does not work.

My new approach is to actually PLAN another "pick a card"-trick and still try a CF, just in case.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Mar 9, 2019 02:40PM)
He doesn't want to read them, Al - just wants to spend his time practicing the CF, while everyone else is fooling he heck out of people using "good stuff" out of my books that do NOT necessitate a CF. Would be okay for some, but not essential.
Message: Posted by: adrianrbf (Mar 9, 2019 02:54PM)
[quote]On Mar 9, 2019, Harry Lorayne wrote:
He doesn't want to read then, Al[/quote]
Actually, there are a number of books on my shelf - well, rather e-books and videos on my virtual shelf. That's not the problem.

I just don't quite get why you think my question is so strange, and in how far a very general and unspecific advice like "read the good stuff" should be of any help.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Mar 9, 2019 03:15PM)
Yeah, that IS the problem. And it's very specific advice - but obviously, you don't want to "take" it. That's fine - keep practicing that CF.
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Mar 9, 2019 03:56PM)
OK
Letís get a bit more practical here.
I have been magic since 1960. Since then I have lectured at most major conventions in America. I have written at least a hundred books on magic. While that does not really speak to my capability, it is something. Harry has probably done more than that. Consider that you are not talking to beginners here.

Here is what I am trying to say. Since 1960 I have not seen anyone do the CF with certainty every time. Some guy was running around an Abbot Get together a long time ago and it appeared he could do it 100%. Well, he was using a stacked deck and if he missed the force he could still get the card. He was shocking people.

Now, there are those out there that will tell you the CF can be done 100%. I have not seen it. I have been to several lectures where some expert claimed that was possible. He taught it to everyone in the room. However, when I saw him do it, one of two things happened. First, his hands dropped down out of sight so I could not see what he was doing. Only the person selecting the card saw the action. The other thing I saw was that when the person selected a card and I could see it, this expert jammed the cards into the hand of the spec. There was no doubt why the spec got the right card.

Now, this is what I have observed since 1960. I could be wrong and I expect several will pop up letting me know this.

Anyway, here is a few points about forcing cards.

There are two main reasons for using a force. One is to be able to foretell what card was selected. That is, a note is placed on the table, a card is selected, and the note reveals what the card is. This can take several forms such as the prediction is in a locked box hanging from the ceiling. The other use of a force is to introduce a gimmick necessary for the performance of some effect. For example, you may want to introduce a card that has a magnetic shim in it. If that card appears to be freely selected, the result of the effect is heightened.

Interestingly, if the force is used to predict, the force is the whole effect. Therefore the kind of force is somewhat critical. If the force is to enable the selection of one of many, the type of force is not critical.

Well, my hope here is that you understand that we are not making fun of you. As a new person to magic you have opened a door to a very wide technology. My main purpose here is to reveal the big room you have entered and to point out that some will deceive you about what is possible and what is not.
Message: Posted by: gillesA4 (Mar 10, 2019 03:09AM)
Mr. Schneider,
I ran into this thread by chance last week and for the first time I heard of this book of yours about card forces. I purchased it and I'm extremely glad I did; I also noticed at least ten books of yours I never heard of, so I thought I might not be the only one...
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Mar 10, 2019 06:39AM)
So Al says that when I say the CF is 100% reliable, I'm being deceptive. Hmmm... I'm going to choose to ignore this attack on my character and get back to the point.

The reason people don't perform the CF more is they erroneously feel it is too unreliable. My point is that if you know what you're doing, it IS 100% reliable. I haven't missed the CF in years, not because I'm a better card handler than anyone else, but because I've planned for every contingency. Those that have reviewed the download agree it is an excellent resource to further your knowledge of the CF, including Paul Green, whose excellent DVD on the CF should be in every card handler's library.

It is disheartening when a legitimate question about a standard card magic sleight turns into a platform for the elder statesmen of the Cafť to hijack the thread, mock the poster's question, and impugn the integrity of those that seek to answer that question.

So take heart, Adrian, because it is absolutely a legitimate question, and one that some have put some thought into. Good thoughts.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Mar 10, 2019 06:44AM)
[quote]On Mar 9, 2019, Al Schneider wrote:
OK
Letís get a bit more practical here.
I have been magic since 1960. Since then I have lectured at most major conventions in America. I have written at least a hundred books on magic. While that does not really speak to my capability, it is something. Harry has probably done more than that. Consider that you are not talking to beginners here.

Here is what I am trying to say. Since 1960 I have not seen anyone do the CF with certainty every time. Some guy was running around an Abbot Get together a long time ago and it appeared he could do it 100%. Well, he was using a stacked deck and if he missed the force he could still get the card. He was shocking people.

Now, there are those out there that will tell you the CF can be done 100%. I have not seen it. I have been to several lectures where some expert claimed that was possible. He taught it to everyone in the room. However, when I saw him do it, one of two things happened. First, his hands dropped down out of sight so I could not see what he was doing. Only the person selecting the card saw the action. The other thing I saw was that when the person selected a card and I could see it, this expert jammed the cards into the hand of the spec. There was no doubt why the spec got the right card.

Now, this is what I have observed since 1960. I could be wrong and I expect several will pop up letting me know this.

Anyway, here is a few points about forcing cards.

There are two main reasons for using a force. One is to be able to foretell what card was selected. That is, a note is placed on the table, a card is selected, and the note reveals what the card is. This can take several forms such as the prediction is in a locked box hanging from the ceiling. The other use of a force is to introduce a gimmick necessary for the performance of some effect. For example, you may want to introduce a card that has a magnetic shim in it. If that card appears to be freely selected, the result of the effect is heightened.

Interestingly, if the force is used to predict, the force is the whole effect. Therefore the kind of force is somewhat critical. If the force is to enable the selection of one of many, the type of force is not critical.

Well, my hope here is that you understand that we are not making fun of you. As a new person to magic you have opened a door to a very wide technology. My main purpose here is to reveal the big room you have entered and to point out that some will deceive you about what is possible and what is not. [/quote]
Excellent post Mr. Schneider. Thankyou for sharing your wisdom on this.
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Mar 10, 2019 08:10AM)
Steven

So, I viewed a Youtube clip you posted.

https://youtu.be/NbZpdbfZJ7E

Canít you see that you make my point.

The clip is about what to do when you miss the CF

This looks like a very good DVD. I would probably recommend it if I viewed it.

And this post is a plug for it.

I did mention that I could be wrong about my opinion.

However, you indicate that I am 100% wrong.

It must be nice to be 100% right.
Message: Posted by: Harry Lorayne (Mar 10, 2019 08:25AM)
For me - the Classic Force works much better when I turn my back to the spectator - hands/deck go behind my back, etc. (Psychologically better.) I always start my Ambitious Card routine that way. I do so and talk about the force on one of my "Best Ever" DVDs.
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Mar 10, 2019 08:36AM)
Here is my real problem.

I have sat in lectures attended by many people in a prestigious convention and the lecturer told the audience that the CF can be done and anyone that doesnít use it is a fool.

I cannot do the classic force.

Ergo, I am a fool.

It is my wish that beginnerís in magic are not subjected to the disgrace I have been subjected to
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Mar 10, 2019 10:35AM)
Ok, DIALING THINGS BACK to a time when our mutual love was Miss Direction and not that slut Miss Understanding, can we agree that whatever technique is used has to be put in some context?

I have a card selected, I can find it, there's a number of methods. I have a card selected, I show it printed on my T-Shirt, I have significantly fewer methods. What's more, if the effect suggests that a card was forced, that can further puts heat on the selection procedure even in retrospect.

I don't classic force either, simply because I don't want to go through the process of having an out, either in terms of method or effect, and because my usual effect for it strongly suggests that a card was forced, I want to be able to get them to change their mind on the card they initially select, if they so choose. Yes, one can do this with the classic force as well, but now we're in bluff territory rather than 100% safe territory. This also means, though, that you lose out on the straightforwardness of a well classic forced card, and that's something you have to live with. I don't say that lightly.

I think it's safe to say that this stuff can be agreed upon without angering anybody's position on the classic force, whether it's pro- or anti- or agnostic. But what say y'all?
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Mar 10, 2019 12:39PM)
Absolutely great, continue.
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Mar 10, 2019 10:36PM)
[quote]On Mar 10, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
I don't classic force either, simply because I don't want to go through the process of having an out, either in terms of method or effect, and because my usual effect for it strongly suggests that a card was forced, I want to be able to get them to change their mind on the card they initially select, if they so choose. Yes, one can do this with the classic force as well, but now we're in bluff territory rather than 100% safe territory. This also means, though, that you lose out on the straightforwardness of a well classic forced card, and that's something you have to live with. I don't say that lightly.
[/quote]

The way I go about things accommodates either a relatively quick and casual... or slow and deliberate process allowing people to change their mind as much as they want. It's the same basic framework that is malleable enough to handle either situation. So, yes, this allows for people to change their mind with as much deliberation as they want and still end up with the force card. Or, the same procedure can allow for a 3 second selection process. For me, it's not about making a choice of either...or.

[quote]On Mar 10, 2019, Al Schneider wrote:
Here is my real problem.

I have sat in lectures attended by many people in a prestigious convention and the lecturer told the audience that the CF can be done and anyone that doesnít use it is a fool.
[/quote]

I agree. If you don't want to use it, don't use it. And anyone that berates others for using (or not using) a given move is someone that has trouble seeing beyond the limited veil of their own experience.

My only point in this thread is to say, if the only reason someone doesn't perform the classic force is because they don't think it's reliable enough, I'd like to give them some food for thought.
Message: Posted by: The Burnaby Kid (Mar 11, 2019 08:50AM)
[quote]On Mar 10, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote:

The way I go about things accommodates either a relatively quick and casual... or slow and deliberate process allowing people to change their mind as much as they want. It's the same basic framework that is malleable enough to handle either situation. So, yes, this allows for people to change their mind with as much deliberation as they want and still end up with the force card. Or, the same procedure can allow for a 3 second selection process. For me, it's not about making a choice of either...or.

[/quote]

I mean, I'll bite, because you're historically trustworthy. Are you saying that you can classic force in a situation where they might change their mind and take a different card and it's 100%? I can see this with transitioning into another method, if that's what you're suggesting...?
Message: Posted by: Rupert Pupkin (Mar 11, 2019 09:11AM)
[quote]On Mar 11, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
[quote]On Mar 10, 2019, Steven Keyl wrote:

The way I go about things accommodates either a relatively quick and casual... or slow and deliberate process allowing people to change their mind as much as they want. It's the same basic framework that is malleable enough to handle either situation. So, yes, this allows for people to change their mind with as much deliberation as they want and still end up with the force card. Or, the same procedure can allow for a 3 second selection process. For me, it's not about making a choice of either...or.

[/quote]

I mean, I'll bite, because you're historically trustworthy. Are you saying that you can classic force in a situation where they might change their mind and take a different card and it's 100%? I can see this with transitioning into another method, if that's what you're suggesting...? [/quote]

That's the fundamental weakness of the classic force. You can't allow for that.

Gee, Burnaby, this has a familiar ring to it...
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (Mar 11, 2019 10:04AM)
[quote]On Mar 11, 2019, The Burnaby Kid wrote:

I mean, I'll bite, because you're historically trustworthy. Are you saying that you can classic force in a situation where they might change their mind and take a different card and it's 100%? I can see this with transitioning into another method, if that's what you're suggesting...? [/quote]

You are correct.

Take the case where I want to highlight the selection process with a slow, deliberate, procedure (using your example, let's say it's printed on a T-shirt so you want to emphasize the fairness of the selection). I make a great show of moving SLOWLY through the deck and ask them to choose any card they want. Even in this case, I typically hit the force, and I will outjog it and ask them if they want to change their mind. (I have a two-word phrase that prevents them from changing their mind. I can't remember ever using it and then had a person change their mind--and it doesn't feel like I'm trying to stop them from changing their mind--those two words ARE magic!)

Back to the point, let's say this is a one in a thousand that wants to change their mind, I ask them if they want to move up or down from their current selection, or start all over from scratch. Their answer determines which force I transition into. These other forces are terrific and many use them as stand-alone forces. For me, they work great in conjunction with the CF for those unusual occasions.

The issue that trips up many people from using the CF is not knowing exactly what to do in one of the oddball situations. If you do know what to do, you'll be more comfortable, and that lack of tension results in greater success with the initial CF, because you don't have the anxiety you might otherwise have.

(As an aside, all of these things are only part of the first pillar in my video--the TECHNICAL OUTS. In cases where I miss due to timing or if someone is particularly picky, I generally use a technique from the second pillar, the PSYCHOLOGICAL OUTS, as I find it quicker and easier. But the larger point is that there are many ways to skin the cat, which don't involve throwing out the entire procedure.)
Message: Posted by: Pop Haydn (Mar 11, 2019 02:42PM)
The Chicago Surprise is a great routine for practising the Classic Force. Here is a version where the force card isn't taken:

[youtube]QbBTdzBMZtc[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: aabc (Apr 3, 2019 10:39AM)
A bit late, but there are a few suggestions at the end of CC2. One good one is to use the wrong card as a cut card for the criss cross force.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (Apr 3, 2019 02:49PM)
Harry, I agree. Control the card or force the card. I choose not to have to change plans if the CF doesn't work out. So I do things that will work. Virtually all the time. For you the CF may be fun. In the past, whenever I have chosen a card from a CF, I have never felt I was getting a fair choice.
Message: Posted by: Melephin (Apr 26, 2019 05:41AM)
Take the "wrong" card back from the spectator. Make the joke, that the card has the same size front and back and by doing so turning the card around. Normally, that's a laugh. Then try again. Or drop the card and try again.

If the second time still didn't work, control the card as Harry as suggested. An "out" is not a way, to do exactly as you planned, even if something went wrong. An "out" means a way to deal with the situation and in this case, is to switch to another routine by controlling the card. I think that is an important part of practicing the CF and not to be neglected.

If you have an out (or several) at the ready and your performance does not relay on that bloody CF that much, you'll be more relaxed. If you're more relaxed, the CF will work better. The spectators smell your tension!
Message: Posted by: sandromagic (Apr 30, 2019 05:42AM)
Great ideas mentioned.Thank you !
Message: Posted by: ASW (Apr 30, 2019 08:16AM)
[quote]On Mar 9, 2019, Al Schneider wrote:
OK
Letís get a bit more practical here.
I have been magic since 1960. Since then I have lectured at most major conventions in America. I have written at least a hundred books on magic. While that does not really speak to my capability, it is something. Harry has probably done more than that. Consider that you are not talking to beginners here.

Here is what I am trying to say. Since 1960 I have not seen anyone do the CF with certainty every time. Some guy was running around an Abbot Get together a long time ago and it appeared he could do it 100%. Well, he was using a stacked deck and if he missed the force he could still get the card. He was shocking people.

Now, there are those out there that will tell you the CF can be done 100%. I have not seen it. I have been to several lectures where some expert claimed that was possible. He taught it to everyone in the room. However, when I saw him do it, one of two things happened. First, his hands dropped down out of sight so I could not see what he was doing. Only the person selecting the card saw the action. The other thing I saw was that when the person selected a card and I could see it, this expert jammed the cards into the hand of the spec. There was no doubt why the spec got the right card.

Now, this is what I have observed since 1960. I could be wrong and I expect several will pop up letting me know this.

Anyway, here is a few points about forcing cards.

There are two main reasons for using a force. One is to be able to foretell what card was selected. That is, a note is placed on the table, a card is selected, and the note reveals what the card is. This can take several forms such as the prediction is in a locked box hanging from the ceiling. The other use of a force is to introduce a gimmick necessary for the performance of some effect. For example, you may want to introduce a card that has a magnetic shim in it. If that card appears to be freely selected, the result of the effect is heightened.

Interestingly, if the force is used to predict, the force is the whole effect. Therefore the kind of force is somewhat critical. If the force is to enable the selection of one of many, the type of force is not critical.

Well, my hope here is that you understand that we are not making fun of you. As a new person to magic you have opened a door to a very wide technology. My main purpose here is to reveal the big room you have entered and to point out that some will deceive you about what is possible and what is not. [/quote]

Itís a shame you never saw Rovi.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (May 5, 2019 06:43PM)
Quoting ASW: "Here is what I am trying to say. Since 1960 I have not seen anyone do the CF with certainty every time. Some guy was running around an Abbot Get together a long time ago and it appeared he could do it 100%. Well, he was using a stacked deck and if he missed the force he could still get the card. He was shocking people.

Now, there are those out there that will tell you the CF can be done 100%. I have not seen it. I have been to several lectures where some expert claimed that was possible. He taught it to everyone in the room. However, when I saw him do it, one of two things happened. First, his hands dropped down out of sight so I could not see what he was doing. Only the person selecting the card saw the action. The other thing I saw was that when the person selected a card and I could see it, this expert jammed the cards into the hand of the spec. There was no doubt why the spec got the right card. "

Exactly. And if the force is critical to the effect, you have ruined the effect and have to change your plans. This is needless confusion for yourself. If you love the C force, great. I don't like anything which is not certain. Also, magicians are good at fooling themselves sometimes. When people have pulled the CF on me, I intuitively knew they had controlled the card I chose. There are many forces where the selection is clean, and they can truly change their mind on which card they will take, and it will end up being the one you want. The best thing I would do is suggest you study and try different forces. If you like the CF, good for you. I earn good money at magic and don't like adding confusion and a change in plans to my routines in my show. If you do magic in a one-hit trick format, then the CF might work for you. Not for me.
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (May 5, 2019 07:01PM)
You seem to be saying the CF is an inferior force because you've seen it done poorly by other magicians. If your views are so colored by such motivated reasoning, then there is no constructive way to continue this conversation.

Thank you for coming onto a thread about how to improve one's work in the CF to state that you don't like it and won't use it. I'm sure everyone here is quite interested in an opinion that has nothing to do with the question being asked.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (May 5, 2019 08:26PM)
Hi Steven, I greatly respect your work.
However, some of the greatest help, at times, on the MC, is from differing and different opinions.

Actually the CForces done on me were done by very experienced magicians. it was well done. I just was not convinced I had a truly free choice. I think I stated that it is fine if you like the CF. I can accept that. For me, there are cleaner forces where someone can change their mind on what card they want. This is convincing to me. Yet still a force. Can be done many ways, gimmicked and non gimmicked.

I did point out, with an experienced magi's opinion, that it is not 100%. That is why you need outs. That is fine if you like it.
For shows I do, there are too many distractions to have to change course due to needing an out. Especially if a big effect is "riding" on a force. I fully respect you if you have a differing opinion.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 5, 2019 08:44PM)
[quote]On May 5, 2019, countrymaven wrote:
Quoting ASW: "Here is what I am trying to say. Since 1960 I have not seen anyone do the CF with certainty every time. Some guy was running around an Abbot Get together a long time ago and it appeared he could do it 100%. Well, he was using a stacked deck and if he missed the force he could still get the card. He was shocking people.

Now, there are those out there that will tell you the CF can be done 100%. I have not seen it. I have been to several lectures where some expert claimed that was possible. He taught it to everyone in the room. However, when I saw him do it, one of two things happened. First, his hands dropped down out of sight so I could not see what he was doing. Only the person selecting the card saw the action. The other thing I saw was that when the person selected a card and I could see it, this expert jammed the cards into the hand of the spec. There was no doubt why the spec got the right card. "

Exactly. And if the force is critical to the effect, you have ruined the effect and have to change your plans. This is needless confusion for yourself. If you love the C force, great. I don't like anything which is not certain. Also, magicians are good at fooling themselves sometimes. When people have pulled the CF on me, I intuitively knew they had controlled the card I chose. There are many forces where the selection is clean, and they can truly change their mind on which card they will take, and it will end up being the one you want. The best thing I would do is suggest you study and try different forces. If you like the CF, good for you. I earn good money at magic and don't like adding confusion and a change in plans to my routines in my show. If you do magic in a one-hit trick format, then the CF might work for you. Not for me. [/quote]

Funny. Paul Daniels relied on it day in day out on live television in front of millions of home viewers. He earned fairly decent money at magic too I suppose- but I guess 7 figures isnít what it used to be.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (May 5, 2019 09:05PM)
Amen. If you read my post, I am allowing for your freedom in making a choice. I am not trying to "classic force" a solution on you. You would be able to tell you are being forced into one option. I don't need any outs. Make your own choice. Choose whatever "out" works for you if the classic force proves not to be 100%. But you can't do a trick depending on a prophetic trick with a matching dramatic ending, if it depends on the CF working every time. You will have to drop it and go for a different, lesser (most likely) ending. Also, in Paul Daniels' day, people were more gullible and easier to fool. They would take whatever card from a fan you shoved into their paws. It was monkey see, monkey do, time. With the internet and all it reveals, it is actually helpful to have a force not everyone knows about. IMHO. H is for humble. I am not omniscient. If you think you are , good for you.

It is helpful to get a different perspective.
You are free to decide, in this country if it works for you or not. It is simple minded to point out something worked for one magician. It didn't every time. But you weren't there to see it.
Message: Posted by: Steven Keyl (May 6, 2019 06:22AM)
Fair enough. You're correct, I didn't see what you saw. If I had, my opinion may be different now. I apologize for my earlier snarkiness, I may have inferred context that wasn't there, or wasn't intended. Looking back on it I hate being someone who is contributing to the friction here instead of mending it, which I succeed in doing most of the time.

It's difficult to articulate a position defending a move where my own handling of it is layered and nuanced. When I perform the CF, it comes in "two flavors" if you will. The first is the traditional CF, this is the one most of us are debating. My "first hit" success rate with this move is close to 97% (I miss it about 1 time in 30). The other 3% of the time, I am able to move into one of several "outs" that don't make it feel like the process has changed in any way and feels every bit as fair as the CF itself. I've had more than one magician comment to me that my CF doesn't feel like a CF, which is the only evidence I can offer that it can be a move that doesn't feel like someone is just "putting the card in your hand."

The second version of my CF is a more deliberate force where I spread through the cards more slowly than the classic CF. It can feel fairer than the classic CF to a skeptical audience member (or magician). The "outs" are the same as the first version of the CF but again, with my scripting and handling it never feels to the participant like the process has changed. The only real difference besides seeming fairer to certain people, is that my first hit rate drops to about 80%. Again, this is not a problem because in the other 20% of cases, I revert to a force that feels every bit as fair. "If it's just as fair, then why not use them to begin with?" Several reasons, actually, but I don't want this to drag on too long.

The outs I use may be the ones you are advocating for in place of the CF. In that case, the only difference between our handlings is that 97% (or 80%) of the time, the initial card they select is the force card, and no further handling is required. In the other 3% (or 20%) of cases, our handling probably looks nearly identical, or at least I would guess so.

We agree you should use what works for you. My main point is that just because a "first hit" success rate does not equal 100%, does NOT mean the CF MUST be abandoned in favor of other forces, because there is more than one way to skin this cat.

Best wishes, countrymaven, and again my apologies for being a !@#$%^& earlier. Good thoughts.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (May 13, 2019 08:37PM)
Card Master Stephen Kyle has a video on classic force outs. It is masterful. Highly recommended.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 14, 2019 01:49AM)
[quote]On May 5, 2019, countrymaven wrote:
Amen. If you read my post, I am allowing for your freedom in making a choice. I am not trying to "classic force" a solution on you. You would be able to tell you are being forced into one option. I don't need any outs. Make your own choice. Choose whatever "out" works for you if the classic force proves not to be 100%. But you can't do a trick depending on a prophetic trick with a matching dramatic ending, if it depends on the CF working every time. You will have to drop it and go for a different, lesser (most likely) ending. Also, in Paul Daniels' day, people were more gullible and easier to fool. They would take whatever card from a fan you shoved into their paws. It was monkey see, monkey do, time. With the internet and all it reveals, it is actually helpful to have a force not everyone knows about. IMHO. H is for humble. I am not omniscient. If you think you are , good for you.

It is helpful to get a different perspective.
You are free to decide, in this country if it works for you or not. It is simple minded to point out something worked for one magician. It didn't every time. But you weren't there to see it. [/quote]
I disagree. Your lack of respect for Paul's audiences is simple minded.
Paul Daniels performed for millions of people for decades and attained great heights as an entertainer. They didn't have paws and they weren't monkeys.
Daniels was a master. Internet or no internet. And he used the Classic Force all the time, under fire, live, with everything at stake.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (May 14, 2019 05:46AM)
I also am a fan of Daniels. But I am in a different time and place than that era. How about you?
If I have a prophetic revelation which demands a dramatic clean ending, I would rather have a card clearly chosen with the chance to change it at any time. After having shown the cards to be different. I mean where they literally can grab a different card.

So it is that some effects I do play better when it is quite obvious they had what seemed to be a completely free choice and they could have, for example, chosen and of the cards on the table without interference from me. For me it has to do with the effect; it is not about how much you love the CF or not. I use the CF sometimes, but for certain effects, it can create more problems than it is worth.

A recent survey on forces showed that a hands off force was the most convincing. It helps to prove indirectly that a hands off force is convincing to the spectators , according to recent studies.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 14, 2019 11:18AM)
Fortunately the Classic Force is timeless. Spreading the pack between the hands to have one selected is a natural, logical action.
The CF is a great tool. Tool selection is vital in the construction of any effect. Obviously, different tools for different jobs.
Be weary of any "studies" that purport to reveal what laymen think is most fair.
Message: Posted by: davidpaul$ (May 14, 2019 11:46AM)
On a recent interview with David Williamson he mentions practicing the CF when you don't have to.
That way you can get comfortable with casualness,timing and spectator responses. Over time you can get a real good feel as well as instinct.

I sometimes spread cards face up and have someone choose a card at random. I'm surprised how many people picks cards from the center of the spread where a card is a little more exposed.I just do it for fun. No reason. Garrett Thomas forced a card on me several times from a face up spread. I was floored. It was so natural and I really thought I had a free choice. I even changed my mind.

Like Harry Lorayne and Paul Green mention there are soooo many routines where a spectator can choose any card (non forced) and have a WOW!!! ending. I use Doc Eason's slip cut when I HAVE to be sure fire.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (May 14, 2019 01:10PM)
Ok I will spill the beans. I developed what I consider to be a refined cull force I use. Often a cull force is exposed or semi exposed. There are many ways of doing it badly. So the cull force is often a second rate "junk force." In the hands of most who do it.
But I have refined it. You show them the cards, cull through them, let them pick one, then show them face up, etc. They see they get a different card every time. Next you force a card. I have solved the problems of the cull force. There is no difference between this and picking a card as you go through them.
It is as clean as the Classical Force, but it works every time. No bad angles.

So basically I am doing what looks like the Classical force, but it works every time.

Again, without subtleties and refinements, nobody would choose the cull force. But it kills if it is refined. No cards partly exposed, no angle problems. And the spectator can see what is happening , before your force.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (May 14, 2019 02:43PM)
Also, a note to the above. They can keep their card too. To the spectator there is no difference between this and
the classical force. The difference to me is that they get the force card every time, even though they can pick and choose for their final choice.
Trust me there is a lot of sloppy cull work. One of the big names, the famous one of the "best fastest" cull can be seen exposing it sometimes in his videos. So it is significant that a cull force needs to be refined so it is absolutely clean and invisible every time.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (May 15, 2019 02:14PM)
Cull and Classic are not even the same species. I suspect their progeny would be impotent.
Message: Posted by: Rupert Pupkin (May 15, 2019 03:02PM)
[quote]On May 15, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Cull and Classic are not even the same species. I suspect their progeny would be impotent. [/quote]

Other than the spectator being able to remove the card without delay, a cull force and a classic force have the same outward appearance, no? What sets them so far apart in your mind?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (May 15, 2019 05:45PM)
[quote]On May 15, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
[quote]On May 15, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Cull and Classic are not even the same species. I suspect their progeny would be impotent. [/quote]

Other than the spectator being able to remove the card without delay, a cull force and a classic force have the same outward appearance, no? What sets them so far apart in your mind? [/quote]

To me the Pull and the Point are completely different animals.
I think the card a spec "grabs" feels fairer than the one he points at and is shown after some adjusted-movement. That's why they grab so hard..
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (May 15, 2019 08:36PM)
I perhaps should not post this. But it is fair, if the argument can be made, as Master Rupert said above, that the classic force and a clean cull force are the same to the spectator. They actually can change their mind about the card as much as they want, within reason, with a cull force.

So if the above can be advanced, as Master Pupkin has asserted, then one "out" to the classic force is to replace it with a super clean cull force. Then you will never need an out.

Again, it must be noted that many who do culls are completely unaware of how sloppy they appear. Not always. But often, if a spectator is observant, they will see a card slip by on the bottom of the deck, or it will be "hanging" out of alignment somewhere. Watch the videos when they are culling if the deck is filmed from the front. You will see some cards floating by under the deck. That must be completely eliminated by good technique. In this all the angles are covered.

Also, I precede this with a clean "spread and choose" once or twice, to show the spectator they get a different card every time. At this point the card is culled in a very clean manner and a portion of the force card is covered in the back in a way I have never seen before. totally natural. This is needed to be sure there is no sloppy "hanging out" of the force card.

As for grabbing the card and handing the group of cards with their card on the bottom, it is really the same to the spectators if it is utterly clean.

So, in summary, it is ok to mention this as a possible "out" to the classic force. This being the only "out" you will ever need. Because they always get the force card in a very clean way.

As for the pull and point, when a spectator pulls a card, it is fair. But it is only good if they get the force card. In this force, you give them a completely free choice of all cards, in their mind. You do not need to control what section they choose from, other than getting started. But this is more fair in this way: even after they decide on a card, they can change their mind. They still will get the force card. But this is not a "point" . You hand them the group of cards they stopped you at immediately with their card facing them. So if you add the freedom of choice in location from the deck, the ability to change their card after they decide, and instantly handing them the block of cards, this force can easily appear to be more fair than the classic force.

I will share this with Cafť members down below. Within the next couple of months.

I greatly respect those who can do the classic force almost all the time. I have some effects, like a bird sticking their signed card on the outside of a window, outside where the magic is happening. I need to know they will get the force card 100% for this and that it is a very clean method of selection in their mind.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (May 15, 2019 09:00PM)
Also, there can be less delay for them to get their card with the a refined cull force. It is extremely clean.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 15, 2019 09:04PM)
[quote]On May 15, 2019, Rupert Pupkin wrote:
[quote]On May 15, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
Cull and Classic are not even the same species. I suspect their progeny would be impotent. [/quote]

Other than the spectator being able to remove the card without delay, a cull force and a classic force have the same outward appearance, no? What sets them so far apart in your mind? [/quote]
No. They do not have the same outward appearance.
And a "cull force" encompasses dozens of handlings. All of which look slightly different. Some are fairly similar to the CF, some are far from it.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (May 15, 2019 09:16PM)
I was discussing a refined cull force I worked out. There has never been such a clean cull force before--not that I am aware of. It was created to replace the classic force. Every part of it. I will be sharing it in the next two months. Until then you are commenting on something you have not seen. It has new elements to it. I would appreciate your feedback sincerely at that time.

Also I do appreciate your skill with cards. You are a virtuoso with cards. Harry is proud of you too, and rightly. I am not being sarcastic. Why not appreciate people who are card masters? If you decide to stick with the CF after my video, that is fine. I respect your skill and learning.
But I must make clear, in the next two months, the majority of magicians will give up the CF for my force. It is free I don't need the money.
But that is your choice, as in any force, you have a choice. Just kidding in this last part.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (May 16, 2019 12:26PM)
Amateur: Hey Magician, it hurts when I do the Center Force!
Magician: Stop doing the Center Force.