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Topic: Postcard Mentalism
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Mar 12, 2019 01:48PM)
What routines are good using postcards instead of playing cards?
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 12, 2019 01:56PM)
None.

Postcards work well when the theme and presentation fits logically.
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Mar 12, 2019 02:39PM)
[quote]On Mar 12, 2019, IAIN wrote:
None.

Postcards work well when the theme and presentation fits logically. [/quote]

100% disagree. Quite often playing cards are used simply as a way of having a set of possibilities that people are familiar with. There is no inherent value to using playing cards versus picture versus postcards in a vast majority (in my opinion) of cases.

To elucidate, unless you are doing a gambling demonstration, how can you answer "None" to the original question of "What routines are good using postcards instead of playing cards?"

Do you actually believe that? No routines are good using postcards instead of playing cards?! Your answer seems pretty clear and, in my opinion, pretty clearly incorrect.

To answer the original question, here are my opinions of a few routines that are good using postcards instead of playing cards:
Chuck Hickok's Pop Eyed Popper routine (postcards)
Out of this World (postcards)
Memory Demonstration (can't remember if Hickok or Cassidy, thinking Hickok)

Good luck!
-Lem
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 12, 2019 02:51PM)
His question is about using card tricks with postcards...

I do not think that is a good or sensible use of the postcards. Its unnatural to handle postcards like playing cards.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 12, 2019 02:53PM)
And it's called an opinion by the way.

I used to make my own sven postcards, I used them naturally occurring presentations where postcards make sense to use as a selection process.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 12, 2019 02:54PM)
On a train and using a smartphone equals poorly written posts...
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 12, 2019 03:59PM)
A packet of post-cards and a packet of playing-cards are functionally identical for a prestidigitator. Both can be "handled" in a nearly identical manner.

Post cards lend themselves to personalized reveals, elevating do-as-I-do type routines to something dreamy and esoteric.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 12, 2019 04:02PM)
I agree they can...

However, they shouldn't be (apparently I have to stipulate this is my opinion, who knew!)...

I say this because of that exact association. "oh he used and held those postcards just like someone would a deck of cards"
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 12, 2019 04:04PM)
So if you're going to use postcards, think about the theme that allows them to feel natural and suitable to the presentation...
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 12, 2019 04:05PM)
For example, why are you limiting the person to pick from that selection of places? You just need a decent reason... Doesn't have to be too indepth...

Otherwise, if you're a mind reader then they can think of any place or country...
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 12, 2019 04:52PM)
[quote]On Mar 12, 2019, IAIN wrote:
I agree they can...

However, they shouldn't be (apparently I have to stipulate this is my opinion, who knew!)...

I say this because of that exact association. "oh he used and held those postcards just like someone would a deck of cards" [/quote]

Maybe. I agree that the mentalist should avoid the trappings of magicians.
But handling cards of any type is fairly universal, and not necessarily "magical". No flourishes obviously.
Message: Posted by: jimgerrish (Mar 12, 2019 05:15PM)
This is why magicians should be banned from commenting on the affairs of mentalists. Just because "cards" is part of the word "postcard" does not require mentalists to develop sleight of hand skills for playing cards. Here's an example of how a mentalist might use "post pictures." You show six (for example) large posters of exotic locations around the world. The posters are then rolled up and dropped into a barrel (vertically) where they can be shaken and mixed. Now "post pictures" of those same locations are handed to another spectator, who is told to choose one, put it in his pocket and drop the unused "post pictures" in an envelope. Now someone else comes to the barrel, reaches in without being able to see the posters, and withdraws one poster. The poster is unrolled. It shows Hawaii! "Aloha `oe, aloha `oe,
E ke onaona noho I ka lipo." While singing your best Hawaiian song, you have the other spectator remove the post picture he freely chose, and Lo and Aloha, they match! And no one did any card moves, double lifts, used roughing fluid, or mysterious shuffling.
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Mar 12, 2019 06:03PM)
Iain, ok maybe I should have just asked "What's a good routine with postcards," since I agree that I don't want to do "card tricks" and I don't even want to shuffle them like playing cards. I think limiting the choice by asking the spectator to look at one and I will name it is a strong effect.

Lemniscate, thanks for the suggestions. I do want to do Chuck Hickok's memory test followed by a name the one you're looking at. But the pop-eyed popper requires a special deck and I have the Desired States postcards from Jim Kleefeld, and it is a regular pile of 50 postcards. So I would like to do three tricks with this one prop. I have been thinking of doing an OOTW with eastern vs western states and maybe three way with central states also.

Jim, first I must say I love the magic nook! And thanks for the idea, maybe I can do a prediction and then have them pick it.

Jonathan Manuel Kanter
Message: Posted by: MichaelCGM (Mar 12, 2019 08:13PM)
[quote]On Mar 12, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:Maybe. I agree that the mentalist should avoid the trappings of magicians.
But handling cards of any type is fairly universal, and not necessarily "magical". No flourishes obviously. [/quote]

Excellent point that I've seen made here regularly. Banachek, Osterlind and Mavin have done rather well using "common," "everyday" cards in a "common," "everyday manner. *wink, wink*
Message: Posted by: George Hunter (Mar 12, 2019 08:16PM)
Jim Kleefeld's new effect, "Desired State," uses 50 postcards (one for each state in the USA) and permits some engaging mentalism.

George
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 12, 2019 10:40PM)
[quote]On Mar 12, 2019, jimgerrish wrote:
This is why magicians should be banned from commenting on the affairs of mentalists.[/quote]

Truer words have never been spoken. If only...
Message: Posted by: MichaelCGM (Mar 12, 2019 11:30PM)
[quote]On Mar 12, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Mar 12, 2019, jimgerrish wrote:
This is why magicians should be banned from commenting on the affairs of mentalists.[/quote]

Truer words have never been spoken. If only... [/quote]

That attitude toward brothers in different branches of the SAME art only divides us and is ill-conceived at that.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 12, 2019 11:38PM)
That's only true if you believe mentalism is part of magic (the same art). I don't and it isn't. Mentalism is part of the mental arts, but of course, most magicians will not see this. Its not an "attitude" it's an understanding.
Message: Posted by: jimgerrish (Mar 12, 2019 11:50PM)
I see some of "us" are not acquainted with the word "sarcasm." That usually afflicts those who have no sense of humor. The cure is to "get over yourself."
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 13, 2019 12:29AM)
I understood it fine, seems you are having a problem with it yourself, lol.
Message: Posted by: Senor Fabuloso (Mar 13, 2019 04:15AM)
Great idea Jim with the "pictures" and posters. THANKS :)
Message: Posted by: jimgerrish (Mar 13, 2019 06:10AM)
It was part of a Wiz Kid routine I called "Picture This." Some Wiz Kids (Adults now) are still using it so it won't appear in The Wizards' Journal until they all give their consent. It will need a new name because Richard Sanders is currently using the name "Picture This" for one of his effects (nothing like the one I described).
Message: Posted by: Reuben Dunn (Mar 14, 2019 10:14AM)
I am suprised that no one has mentioned Chuck Hickok's memory postcard. The link here will help.

https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=391210

His "Mentalism Inc." book ranks, IMO next to Cassidy given the materials that he uses for his effects.

I can think of another effect, but would need to discuss it elsewhere away from prying eyes.
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Mar 14, 2019 10:21AM)
[quote]On Mar 14, 2019, Reuben Dunn wrote:
I am suprised that no one has mentioned Chuck Hickok's memory postcard. The link here will help.

https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=391210
[/quote]

It was mentioned in the third post to this thread.
Message: Posted by: Senor Fabuloso (Mar 14, 2019 10:48AM)
Star Gazer (Anthony Lindan)
Message: Posted by: Aaron Vlack (Mar 14, 2019 02:33PM)
[quote]On Mar 12, 2019, Magic.J.Manuel wrote:
What routines are good using postcards instead of playing cards? [/quote]

http://mentalpostcards.blogspot.com/
Message: Posted by: MichaelCGM (Mar 14, 2019 03:42PM)
[quote]On Mar 12, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
That's only true if you believe mentalism is part of magic (the same art). I don't and it isn't. Mentalism is part of the mental arts, but of course, most magicians will not see this. Its not an "attitude" it's an understanding. [/quote]

Mindpro, with all due respect, while I respect the comment that mentalism is not part of the art of theatrical magic as your opinion, I do not accept it as fact. Simply asserting that is does not make it so. I would suggest that both magicians and mentalists are performing their craft before an audience with the intention of entertaining by convincing the audience to suspend their disbelief and accept what they are seeing as somehow genuine. The vast majority of recognized “mentalists” use many of the same tools and methodologies* used by magicians but script their performance to further misdirect the audience’s perception of what is occurring, while trying to convey the perception that mentalism does not employ those tools and methods.

A direct analogy is that of painting. There are numerous styles and interpretations of the art but the artists are still members of the same art… painting, as opposed to sculpture or writing. Whether modernism, impressionism, cubism or surrealism, they are, nonetheless members of the art of painting. They use the same tools and have the same goals.

My comment regarding “attitude” was directed to your need to use Jim’s obviously sarcastic comment to take a swipe at those who identify as “magicians.” It had nothing to do with the concepts of attitude vs understanding. I stand by my comment that such assertions only divide. If you wish to pursue this further, start a new thread or PM me, since I don’t want to further derail this thread.

*NOTE: I did not mention said tools and methods since Penny is not a secure area for such details.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 14, 2019 03:48PM)
Good for you. I hope that made you feel better. :)
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 14, 2019 04:27PM)
The confusion lies in, ironically enough, some of the classic texts... Where there's a "mental" section in between silks and ropes...

Kinky!

And even in the jinx, there's a lot of card tricks pretending to be mentalism. But no one talks about that, but they should.

And yes, obviously it's a different age and time, things change because of the outside world. Which also means some of the old school classics and their claims, also sometimes need to update and move with the times.

A back to the postcards, I know what I wrote sounded mean, but there you go... Its just my opinion. Follow the logic of the props you introduce and be as honest as you can about them. Does it really make sense to use postcards in the context of your routine? Why thos particular postcards? Why is there a limit and so on...

The 50 states one seems like a stronger logic than some others I've seen.

But then again, I can think of more interesting things than just forcing a state with them when you consider the logic and nature of why you buy postcards.
Message: Posted by: Dr Ross (Mar 14, 2019 04:36PM)
Could you do OOTW wit postcards, or similar type routine (like Split Reality)?

- Ross
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 14, 2019 04:54PM)
Ross, what's the logic to it? I'm not saying there isn't one, but asking you what yours is...

Someone is seperating countries, why are you getting them to do it? How can they do it? What skill or power is in play?

Again, you may not care about all that...
Message: Posted by: MichaelCGM (Mar 14, 2019 05:01PM)
[quote]On Mar 14, 2019, IAIN wrote:
Ross, what's the logic to it? I'm not saying there isn't one, but asking you what yours is...

Someone is seperating countries, why are you getting them to do it? How can they do it? What skill or power is in play?

Again, you may not care about all that... [/quote]

Kudos, IAIN. Well stated.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 14, 2019 05:03PM)
So that's why I said there were no card tricks suitable... Because the plots and especially the handling have to be miles apart from that card trick... Otherwise it'll look and feel very odd...
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 14, 2019 05:55PM)
Chris Philpott's [i]French Postcards[/i] makes a lot of sense.
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Mar 14, 2019 06:06PM)
One premise for magically separating the cards is to see if the spectator can "sense" the East coast from the West cost states. Another story line maybe the AAA person was sorting them to create a road trip and want to group them.

Anyway Iain, you say, "But then again, I can think of more interesting things than just forcing a state with them when you consider the logic and nature of why you buy postcards." So what is a better situation to use for this routine?
Message: Posted by: Dr Ross (Mar 14, 2019 06:07PM)
Good point Iain. But I think with a bit of reasoned and creative thinking, someone could come up with an appropriate premise. An example that comes to mind is a spectator-as-mindreader effect. You state that you have some postcards - some of which you've been to and others you have not. They go through them and you apparently think of whether you have been there or not. The participant then puts each postcard into the pile they feel is correct.

End result = they separate them perfectly (perhaps evidenced by a message you wrote and signed on the back of the 'Visited' postcards and a blank back on the 'Not Visited' pile). You could then move forward and ask them to think of a country from the 'Visited' pile. You then read [i]their[/i] mind (e.g., using Reese's method from Navigator). This example would fit your point about making the props fit the context.

I'm not saying I'd do this, but simply that it could be done. With that said, it involves forcing a method to fit an effect, whereas I think the reverse is a better approach to creating a routine.

- Ross

edit: I've just seen that Magic.J.Manuel has some similar ideas.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 14, 2019 06:12PM)
Yeah, so... And I'm not being picky or anything, just talking...

What power or ability would be in play for that first part? How and why could someone suddenly do this amazing thing?

For me, thinking about this kinda stuff helps strengthen what we do, and worst case scenario, points out weaknesses... So it's a win win as far as I'm concerned..
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 14, 2019 06:18PM)
[quote]On Mar 14, 2019, Magic.J.Manuel wrote:

Anyway Iain, you say, "But then again, I can think of more interesting things than just forcing a state with them when you consider the logic and nature of why you buy postcards." So what is a better situation to use for this routine? [/quote]

Again think about postcards, not just the fronts. And what people tend to do with postcards once they buy them.
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Mar 14, 2019 06:53PM)
People buy postcards for different reasons. Maybe buying one while traveling to a destination and sending it home saying, "Wish you were here," or maybe buying a whole set of themed destinations to use to document a bucket list trip. Hallmark sells a "Bucket List Kit" that you write the items on cards and place them in a bucket so when you want something to do you can pick one out of the bucket and check it off the list. The Desired State set has some states listed on the back so when you do go through that state you could check it off, but today we can use these cards as a lie detector to see which state is really on the front of the card from reading a few of the names on the list. Hands off and sight unseen by the entertainer.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Mar 14, 2019 07:20PM)
Why wouldn't the "French Post Cards" effect be considered as mentalism by an audience? The suggested script is even of ESP

It could certainly be presented as such.
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Mar 14, 2019 07:58PM)
Yes the description on Penguin's web site is the spectator sorts them without looking by "feeling" if they are a sexy picture or not. So I could do the same with this pile of cards to see if you can sort them by east coast -- west coast by feeling how something is different without looking.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 14, 2019 08:30PM)
Do you feel an east/west coast plot is an interesting and engaging plot?
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 14, 2019 09:49PM)
Personally, I find the east vs. west thing a dreary idea. To someone who isn't an American, it also isn't immediately obvious if one state is from the east and another from the west etc. I'd say it's a step backwards because it doesn't have universal appeal and immediate recognition. Plus, why would I care about separating west states vs. east states? It just doesn't connect with me at all.

Not meant as a harsh criticism by any means, just offering an opinion. I'm just not seeing a "hook" here.

As an aside, postcards don't have to depict locales either. There are numerous shops that sell movie poster reproductions postcards and other nifty stuff like comic superhero postcards etc. If you really like the "states" thing, you could get yourself a toy car and do an imaginary "road trip" with the face-down postcards using something like Phill Smith's [i]Quinta[/i] etc. Not saying that you should do that, but that there are so many possibilities here, really. If you think about it for a while, you should be able to come up with a ton of ideas.
Message: Posted by: Sudo Nimh (Mar 14, 2019 10:17PM)
Come to think of it...

Andy Nyman has a mental effect with gangster movie poster reproduction postcards called [i]Killer Elite[/i]. Also a great effect.

There's also Simon Shaw's [i]Director's Cut[/i] which uses a stack of different movie poster postcards too.

Again, not suggesting you should use these - just pointing out a few examples of effects that have been done with them. Neither of these are the OOTW effect and both are entirely different.

Maybe scout around online and see what different types of postcards are available. That might help get your creative juices flowing in the right direction. If you're really committed and get a specific idea in mind, you can also design postcards on your PC and have a commercial printer print off something more tailored to your needs.
Message: Posted by: jimgerrish (Mar 14, 2019 11:24PM)
There have been other attempts to use the OOTW scenario with picture cards, like "Krampusnacht" sorting pictures of naughty children from pictures of nice children. It sounded like a good idea, but although I got a pleasant reaction when I performed it, it was not the same as the "knock-out-gee-whiz!" reaction I get from performing OOTW with playing cards. My conclusion: some effects are best left for playing cards because they are so familiar to the audience. People are surprised when the playing cards do things in your presence that they never did before. My suggestion: come up with new effects that make sense when using picture post cards that might not make sense with playing cards. For example, I wouldn't use playing cards to choose a vacation spot or to plan a trip, but that might be a good use for picture postcards.
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Mar 19, 2019 08:36PM)
I do like the French postcards premise, sexy or not. It titillates just a bit! :blush:
Message: Posted by: Robb (Mar 20, 2019 11:33AM)
As Iain has pointed out, the problem with these OOTW routines where the spectator does the separating is... how? Why would they be able to do this?

I have done such routines before. First, they are mental magic at best. At worst, they fall completely flat because the spectator does not BELIEVE they did it unless you have a BRILLIANT way to convince them they did (which, let's be honest, you don't)... "Sense" doesn't work. Sense what? Really, did they "sense" anything? Never.

Occasionally you'll get a person who's really "into it" and takes the "sensing" very seriously, but then they take forever to do the task and it look absurd to everyone watching (because they essentially are watching this person trying to be the center of attention and over-acting).

Just because the subject matter is more "intriguing" doesn't change the basic fact that nobody ever really feels a thing when separating the cards nor ever believes they really did it (except in demo videos for these tricks). Since there is no plausible (or even implausible!) process at play, it's just a magic trick.
Message: Posted by: Senor Fabuloso (Mar 20, 2019 11:57AM)
Ladies and gentleman I have a number of photos of people from the past. Some of them were fine upstanding member of society while others were scoundrels and charlatans. Looking over their faces, you might get a sense of who or what kind of a person they were? Or you may think nothing of them? I know who these people were and what kind of temperament they used while among us. Together we will look at these photos and I'll try to transmit telepathically what type of person they were, by thinking good or bad. All you have to do is receive my thoughts and say out load good or bad. We will separate the photos into the good and bad piles and when done see how close we got. Now take a deep breath in and make you mind blank like you were staring at a white movie screen and in moment you will see the word good or bad flash on the screen. Just say out loud what word you see. If all goes well I will have transmitted the correct character of each photo but if we make a mistake or two, that should be expected because nobody is perfect. Lets begin.

I think a presentation like this not only share the mental capabilities of both the mentalist and subject but with maybe only 30 or so photos, could greatly speed up the demonstration.
Message: Posted by: Robb (Mar 20, 2019 12:48PM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2019, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
Ladies and gentleman I have a number of photos of people from the past. Some of them were fine upstanding member of society while others were scoundrels and charlatans. Looking over their faces, you might get a sense of who or what kind of a person they were? Or you may think nothing of them? I know who these people were and what kind of temperament they used while among us. Together we will look at these photos and I'll try to transmit telepathically what type of person they were, by thinking good or bad. All you have to do is receive my thoughts and say out load good or bad. We will separate the photos into the good and bad piles and when done see how close we got. Now take a deep breath in and make you mind blank like you were staring at a white movie screen and in moment you will see the word good or bad flash on the screen. Just say out loud what word you see. If all goes well I will have transmitted the correct character of each photo but if we make a mistake or two, that should be expected because nobody is perfect. Lets begin.

I think a presentation like this not only share the mental capabilities of both the mentalist and subject but with maybe only 30 or so photos, could greatly speed up the demonstration. [/quote]

Would you be doing this with a single person or multiple people? Who would determine the good/bad? Would you show each photo immediately after? And if not, why not? And with 30 photos, this would take a LONG time and prove not much more than using 20 or even 10 photos.
Message: Posted by: Senor Fabuloso (Mar 20, 2019 01:12PM)
As with the ootw method the pictures would determine there own good or bad, by having good or bad on there backs. One could at times show them to be correct but it would be anti climactic to show them all. 10 or 20 photos wouldn't be enough due again the the method. However I believe that many of your original objections, have been stayed by my posts.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 20, 2019 02:01PM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2019, Robb wrote:
As Iain has pointed out, the problem with these OOTW routines where the spectator does the separating is... how? Why would they be able to do this?

I have done such routines before. First, they are mental magic at best. At worst, they fall completely flat because the spectator does not BELIEVE they did it unless you have a BRILLIANT way to convince them they did (which, let's be honest, you don't)... "Sense" doesn't work. Sense what? Really, did they "sense" anything? Never.

Occasionally you'll get a person who's really "into it" and takes the "sensing" very seriously, but then they take forever to do the task and it look absurd to everyone watching (because they essentially are watching this person trying to be the center of attention and over-acting).

Just because the subject matter is more "intriguing" doesn't change the basic fact that nobody ever really feels a thing when separating the cards nor ever believes they really did it (except in demo videos for these tricks). Since there is no plausible (or even implausible!) process at play, it's just a magic trick. [/quote]

OOTW can absolutely be presented as a spectator "power". That's the entire conceit. They will "sense" whatever is properly planted.
It may be better suited for smaller or more intimate circles.
Message: Posted by: Robb (Mar 20, 2019 02:40PM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2019, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
As with the ootw method the pictures would determine there own good or bad, by having good or bad on there backs. One could at times show them to be correct but it would be anti climactic to show them all. 10 or 20 photos wouldn't be enough due again the the method. However I believe that many of your original objections, have been stayed by my posts. [/quote]

Sorry, I disagree, 10 to 20 would be plenty... it’s kind of beating a dead horse after that. Anyway, it doesn’t solve the basic problem that nobody will feel they actually sensed anything. It’s the fatal flaw of all “spectator as mind reader” routines. I think we largely fool ourselves with these approaches. They may “work” but they rarely come off as more than a trick. It’s obvious why. People KNOW they can’t read minds while it’s possible that the mentalist can.
Message: Posted by: Robb (Mar 20, 2019 02:47PM)
Oh, I’ll point out that the odds of separating just 20 cards successfully is 1024 to 1... the odds of doing it with 30 is many times more than that. Therefore, the spectator is accomplishing something more impossible than what the mentalist often does!
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Mar 20, 2019 02:52PM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2019, Robb wrote:
[quote]On Mar 20, 2019, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
As with the ootw method the pictures would determine there own good or bad, by having good or bad on there backs. One could at times show them to be correct but it would be anti climactic to show them all. 10 or 20 photos wouldn't be enough due again the the method. However I believe that many of your original objections, have been stayed by my posts. [/quote]

Sorry, I disagree, 10 to 20 would be plenty... it’s kind of beating a dead horse after that. Anyway, it doesn’t solve the basic problem that nobody will feel they actually sensed anything. It’s the fatal flaw of all “spectator as mind reader” routines. I think we largely fool ourselves with these approaches. They may “work” but they rarely come off as more than a trick. It’s obvious why. People KNOW they can’t read minds while it’s possible that the mentalist can. [/quote]

I agree and disagree with Robb here.

10-20 is definitely plenty, although there can be discussions of visual scope of using more (you would need clearly different images for this to be a concern of course).

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with Robb's premise that "nobody will feel they actually sensed anything." This is going to largely be down to a performer or presentational issue. Example: using a pendulum to select the items (circling, back and forth, etc.). It also ignores the idea of reframing what happened afterwards in just a "basic" separation approach. In fact, Luke Jermay's OOTW approach from Building Blocks is essentially just an exercise in anchoring, where the cards "really" are separated by "a feeling" the spectator has.

We all need to be careful from making huge generalizations (see Robb's post above for a few good examples) based on our own individual experience.
Message: Posted by: MichaelCGM (Mar 20, 2019 03:31PM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2019, Robb wrote:
It’s the fatal flaw of all “spectator as mind reader” routines. I think we largely fool ourselves with these approaches. They may “work” but they rarely come off as more than a trick. It’s obvious why. People KNOW they can’t read minds while it’s possible that the mentalist can. [/quote]

And THIS is why the Café needs a "Love this post" button, alongside the "Like this post" button. Kudos, Robb.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 20, 2019 03:55PM)
This is probably a decent topic for another thread...but I believe spectators (humanity) widely believe that they are special and have untapped potential.
It isn't a stretch to harness that common-vanity into a routine.
Message: Posted by: jimgerrish (Mar 20, 2019 04:10PM)
Just ask for a show of hands of anyone in your audience who had a dream that came true, or who knew something was about to happen before it happened, or who think they MIGHT have psychic abilities. Surprise yourself.
Message: Posted by: Robb (Mar 20, 2019 06:22PM)
Yeah, personally I think that stuff sounds lovely... but doesn’t translate into the desired effect very often. I didn’t say it isn’t possible to make it happen, I just think highly unlikely. There’s a cognitive dissonance to the whole premise of “spectator as mind reader” effects and it’s not easily overcome. Without overcoming it, it remains mental magic, which is fine, but it is what it is.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 21, 2019 12:42PM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2019, Robb wrote:
Yeah, personally I think that stuff sounds lovely... but doesn’t translate into the desired effect very often. I didn’t say it isn’t possible to make it happen, I just think highly unlikely. There’s a cognitive dissonance to the whole premise of “spectator as mind reader” effects and it’s not easily overcome. Without overcoming it, it remains mental magic, which is fine, but it is what it is. [/quote]

Depending on the audience and presentation, it could also be confirmation bias.
Why should the mentalist be the ONLY one with powers? Maybe we all have "The Sight".
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 21, 2019 12:54PM)
But then it muddies the waters and depends entirely if its a social thing, or a paid gig...

And it also needs a crystal clear reason as to how this person is doing something far bigger than knowing when the phone will ring or be thinking of a song and it plays on the radio etc...
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 21, 2019 03:32PM)
[quote]On Mar 21, 2019, IAIN wrote:
But then it muddies the waters and depends entirely if its a social thing, or a paid gig...

And it also needs a crystal clear reason as to how this person is doing something far bigger than knowing when the phone will ring or be thinking of a song and it plays on the radio etc... [/quote]

Do audiences believe The Mentalist has special unique access to the veiled world of mysticism, or do they believe the doors to expanded-conscience are open to anyone with the key?
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 21, 2019 03:45PM)
[quote]On Mar 21, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Mar 21, 2019, IAIN wrote:
But then it muddies the waters and depends entirely if its a social thing, or a paid gig...

And it also needs a crystal clear reason as to how this person is doing something far bigger than knowing when the phone will ring or be thinking of a song and it plays on the radio etc... [/quote]

Do audiences believe The Mentalist has special unique access to the veiled world of mysticism, or do they believe the doors to expanded-conscience are open to anyone with the key? [/quote]

depends on your premise/skillset/powers are...
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 21, 2019 04:07PM)
I agree, but pre-show attendees must lean one direction. Our culture is rife with religious-fervor, mysticism, superstition and luck.
I posit that the average-audience is more likely to believe we are all latent-mystics than that the Mentalist is a singularity.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 21, 2019 04:20PM)
Well, that's country, state and in my case, county dependant ... Uk beliefs are fairly different to the States...
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Mar 21, 2019 04:24PM)
[quote]On Mar 21, 2019, IAIN wrote:
Well, that's country, state and in my case, county dependant ... Uk beliefs are fairly different to the States... [/quote]

I hear it's all Fairies, Stonehenge and Celtic-knots across the pond.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 21, 2019 04:47PM)
You can't move for the knots...
Message: Posted by: Robb (Mar 21, 2019 05:56PM)
Mr. Salk, hate to break it to you, but people are by and large skeptics these days and give little thought their would-be mystical powers. Again, it sounds lovely... In actual practice, there's a lot of resistance to the idea that the mentalist has "powers" (hence the prevalence of "psychological illusionists"), let alone the average person in the audience.
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Mar 22, 2019 09:02AM)
There are many mysteries in the world our simple minds do not understand, but It does follow that some people are better at art and others are good with math and fewer can do both well. So who is to say that the performer doesn't have a keen aptitude to reading people, body and mind? However I do believe that those that pray on grieving people saying that they are in contact with the "other side" are committing fraud. Fuse lit...
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 22, 2019 09:05AM)
I'd say it's more those that enjoy art don't often enjoy maths, and vice versa... Then there's some who enjoy both and even understand how one helps the other... You just have to look into the golden ratio to see that...
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Mar 22, 2019 09:11AM)
Ok, but the point is that everyone can draw pictures, some are better than others for whatever reason, so maybe everyone has some psychic ability that with some help will allow them the feel the different cards and separate them.

What do you guys think about a three way OOTW with the East coast, West coast, and middle states?
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 22, 2019 09:23AM)
Personally, and no offence meant, that's just painful to me... I can't see how I would wanna emotionally engage with that at all...

I want stuff that either makes me think or makes me care, hopefully both...

But, just my opinion... You need to develop what feels right for you, not a general concensus from people on a forum...

I often start with the idea that if I find something interesting, others might too...

Bucket lists are good, most know what they are and travel is one of those bucket lists... I'd go for that personally... There's an emotional hook there...
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Mar 22, 2019 09:34AM)
In the USA there is quite a disagreement in the politics of these different regions. While politics is a risky topic to employ, it does touch some people deeply.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 22, 2019 10:00AM)
OK, so make it more about politics and tie it in with characteristics and persona analysis... Knowing certain things about people helps reveal how they may vote etc..
Message: Posted by: Chris K (Mar 22, 2019 02:48PM)
[quote]On Mar 22, 2019, IAIN wrote:
OK, so make it more about politics and tie it in with characteristics and persona analysis... Knowing certain things about people helps reveal how they may vote etc.. [/quote]

Terrible idea in the United States right now. Absolutely terrible.
Message: Posted by: IAIN (Mar 22, 2019 03:11PM)
Make it provocative... Its good to deal with it... Deal with taboos...watch the Roger Stone doc on Netflix and it'll give you lots of ideas on influence and manipulation...
Message: Posted by: Senor Fabuloso (Mar 22, 2019 03:19PM)
[quote]On Mar 21, 2019, Robb wrote:
Mr. Salk, hate to break it to you, but people are by and large skeptics these days and give little thought their would-be mystical powers. Again, it sounds lovely... In actual practice, there's a lot of resistance to the idea that the mentalist has "powers" (hence the prevalence of "psychological illusionists"), let alone the average person in the audience. [/quote]

By and large, I'm not so sure? All we need to do is to look to how many so called "mediums" around the world are getting rich, to debunk this claim.
Message: Posted by: Robb (Mar 22, 2019 09:13PM)
[quote]On Mar 22, 2019, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
[quote]On Mar 21, 2019, Robb wrote:
Mr. Salk, hate to break it to you, but people are by and large skeptics these days and give little thought their would-be mystical powers. Again, it sounds lovely... In actual practice, there's a lot of resistance to the idea that the mentalist has "powers" (hence the prevalence of "psychological illusionists"), let alone the average person in the audience. [/quote]

By and large, I'm not so sure? All we need to do is to look to how many so called "mediums" around the world are getting rich, to debunk this claim. [/quote]

It’s by no means a large segment of the population that attends these shows. Yes, they do well, because they have a very dedicated and passionate following, but if even 1% of the general adult population (im the states at least) has attended such shows, I’d be surprised.
Message: Posted by: motown (Mar 23, 2019 12:03AM)
SentiMental Postcards by Diamond Jim Tyler is another one.
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Mar 23, 2019 09:47AM)
Diamond Jim Tyler is great. I checked out the Sentimental Postcards on Youtube and it reminded me of the Magic Safari I did way back when, but he brings it up to date and adds a super finale. :righton:
Message: Posted by: motown (Mar 23, 2019 03:46PM)
Here's another one that might be of interest:

https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=620794&forum=218
Message: Posted by: motown (Mar 24, 2019 03:48PM)
Here's a free one with postcards:

http://billherz.com/tricks/

It's in the 5th row on the right.
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (Mar 24, 2019 08:53PM)
Cool page, the trick is the same as magic safari and Tyler's postcards.
I was looking for a third trick I can do with the Desired State postcards Jim Kleefeld sells, but I think the Hickock Memory test then Desired State with three people is enough.
BTW you can do the magic safari with the states also! :rabbitfromhat:
Message: Posted by: adrianrbf (Mar 25, 2019 07:48AM)
[quote]On Mar 20, 2019, Robb wrote:
It’s the fatal flaw of all “spectator as mind reader” routines. I think we largely fool ourselves with these approaches. They may “work” but they rarely come off as more than a trick. It’s obvious why. People KNOW they can’t read minds while it’s possible that the mentalist can. [/quote]
"People" are different.

There are some who believe that the mentalist might be able to read minds. It is fairly easy to suggest to those people that they, too, can read minds and have some sort of unexplainable intuition that will allow them to accomplish unbelievable things like sorting cards.

There are others who do not believe that the mentalist can read minds. They will consider both their own and the mentalst's mind reading as some sort of trick.

I would say that people who believe that the mentalist can read minds, but will not accept the suggestion that they can, too, are rare.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Mar 26, 2019 08:45AM)
I my experience, every person has some memory of either sensing their thoughts have been read or that they have read the mind of another.

So, their "belief in telepathy" is never in question. The focus is whether telepathy in some form can be controlled or demonstrated at will.

Many mentalists go too far in pushing the expectations of the audience and belief structure. (opinion)
It is possible to demonstrate some heightened acuity on the part of the performer or spectator with overreaching "plausible impossibility."
Unfortunately, such demonstrations are not very entertaining for the masses buying tickets.

Recall that Ormand MMcGill - one of the functional pioneers of stage "mental arts" advised that ALL magicians should shift to a mental demonstration at the end of a show,
since it is a natural progression of expectations from controlling physical objects. Now we have mentalist who desire to distance themselves from conjuring effects
while still milking the audience desire for awe&wonder. (for good reason)

The advice is not whether to mix or not, but to realize that of the mystic arts, mental based effects should always follow physical based ones --
so "mix" is bad, while "merger" or "elevate" might be good. As always, what does your audience of the moment expect? Follow rather than confuse.
Message: Posted by: Magic.J.Manuel (May 3, 2019 04:36PM)
Interesting point.

I do try to build the level of excitement during a show with more and more difficult tricks, but I have developed a Cognitive Calisthenics show that juxtaposes visual magic with mental magic to stimulate both the left and right brains. I think with a strong comedy character everyone gets involved at some point and enjoys the whole performance.
Message: Posted by: Chris K (May 3, 2019 06:52PM)
[quote]On Mar 26, 2019, funsway wrote:
I my experience, every person has some memory of either sensing their thoughts have been read or that they have read the mind of another. [/quote]

I don't happen to fit this category but this is a fascinating approach, thank you so much for sharing. I will think about this a lot this weekend...

Best wishes,
L