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Topic: Study about people who constantly point out grammatical errors
Message: Posted by: imgic (May 7, 2019 10:41PM)
Insightful article:

https://truththeory.com/2019/05/06/people-who-constantly-point-out-grammatical-mistakes-are-jerks-study-suggests/
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 8, 2019 10:41AM)
Utter nonsense obviously.
It is our education system's failure to correct grammar, punctuation, and spelling in all subjects, that have partially led to the downgrade of the literacy of our society.
Spelling, grammar, and punctuation is as important in geometry, physics, biology etc. As it is in an English class.
Communication is the basis of our learning from those who came before us. It must be accurate.
When taking measurements, a millimeter off doesn't seem important, but over a hundred meters, the builder has strayed far off his original layout.
Same with English. It must be cherished, protected, mastered, enjoyed, loved.
We are its caretakers for future generations.
It is our duty, and a huge, important responsibility.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (May 8, 2019 11:29AM)
YUP!!!
Message: Posted by: Tom Cutts (May 8, 2019 12:13PM)
Gnaw, grandma jest dint smatter 2day.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 8, 2019 12:22PM)
I think it depends on the purpose. If the purpose is to impart technical information then it better be accurate and rational. If the purpose is to appeal to the imagination then it better be utter nonsense.
Message: Posted by: Mike Gainor (May 8, 2019 12:57PM)
It's all about not making people feel bad these days...
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 8, 2019 01:17PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2019, Mike Gainor wrote:
It's all about not making people feel bad these days... [/quote]
Correct. And that is a race to the bottom.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 8, 2019 01:41PM)
I see nothing wrong with it in the right setting when you know the person you are correcting. Or maybe in an article that is speaking in general.

Still, I thought the article had some truth to it. Those who correct others just to belittle them, or to say hey look I’m smarter than you, are indeed jerks in my opinion.


Tom
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 8, 2019 04:05PM)
[quote]On May 8, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
I see nothing wrong with it in the right setting when you know the person you are correcting. Or maybe in an article that is speaking in general.

Still, I thought the article had some truth to it. Those who correct others just to belittle them, or to say hey look I’m smarter than you, are indeed jerks in my opinion.


Tom [/quote]
That is completely different. You are correct. Jerks are gonna be jerks however they can.
Message: Posted by: arthur stead (May 8, 2019 05:56PM)
I wouldn’t ever correct anybody, but when I’m sitting next to people using the word “like” three times in every sentence, I am SOOOOO tempted to bet them $10 they couldn’t speak for two minutes without using “like”.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 8, 2019 09:22PM)
Some of us who do magic are nice people. Some of us who do magic are nasty people.
Some who fix cars are nice and helpful, some who fix cars are mean and miserable.
Some who correct others are nice and friendly with honourable intentions. Some who correct people are obnoxious jerks.
No study required.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 8, 2019 09:29PM)
Nice:

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=nice&utm_source=extension_contextmenu
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 8, 2019 09:42PM)
I strongly encourage young people to use proper punctuation at all times, whether leaving a note or when texting- it can be the difference between life or death.

Example 1.

My son left this note:
"Mom gone to store be back soon". Notice the omission of a simple comma.
Now, in an emergency scenario like the power plant exploding, in my attempt to gather my family and head north, I would have no clue who was at the store based on this simple note.
If the note read, "Mom, gone to store. Be back soon." I know that the boy is at the store. If it read, "Mom gone to store, be back soon." Then I know that his mom is at the store. Granted they are not well formed written sentences, but the comma is paramount and allows me to formulate my apocalyptic survival plan.

Example 2.

A vertical maintenance ladder at the plant where I work had this sign:

"Do not use tie off points due for inspection"

Now, if it read, "Do not use. Tie off points due for inspection", my men know they cannot use the ladder and can remain compliant with safety.

If it read, "Do not use tie off points. Due for inspection", then the men know that they are not prohibited from using the ladder, but mustn't use the tie off points for fall protection at the top.

In the nuclear industry, safety compliance means the difference between life or death, or employment or unemployment, and consequently, marriage or divorce.

So we can ridicule those who seem like nitpickers all we want. But those who can speak, write, address a crowd, communicate with precision, will always rise to the top in every field of endeavour.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (May 9, 2019 01:31AM)
I love cooking, my wife, and my dogs.

Comes out rather different without the commas.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 9, 2019 04:10AM)
It’s tough at the top. We typically rely on skilled editors (or technical writers) to make our thoughts understood.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 9, 2019 07:11AM)
[quote]On May 8, 2019, tommy wrote:
Nice:

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=nice&utm_source=extension_contextmenu [/quote]

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/nice
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 9, 2019 07:23AM)
Yes, it is funny how words get maltreated over time “isn’t it”?
Message: Posted by: ed rhodes (May 9, 2019 02:51PM)
[youtube]8Gv0H-vPoDc[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (May 9, 2019 03:00PM)
[quote]But those who can speak, write, address a crowd, communicate with precision, will always rise to the top in every field of endeavour. [/quote]

Simply to be mildly antagonistic - this is obviously not true. At least not in the US. Many people who are not remotely eloquent are in top positions of power, and many who are eloquent and precise are bottom rung employees.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 9, 2019 04:17PM)
[quote]On May 9, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:
[quote]But those who can speak, write, address a crowd, communicate with precision, will always rise to the top in every field of endeavour. [/quote]

Simply to be mildly antagonistic - this is obviously not true. At least not in the US. Many people who are not remotely eloquent are in top positions of power, and many who are eloquent and precise are bottom rung employees. [/quote]
You are missing the point. I didn't say every one with good English skills will succeed and those who don't , won't.
And I sincerely hope you arent referring to politicians who rely on a popular vote.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 9, 2019 05:18PM)
But those who can speak, write, address a crowd, communicate with precision, will always rise to the top in every field of endeavour - except for those who don't.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (May 9, 2019 06:19PM)
In a way, Speaking and Writing are two different things. One can be great with one and bad with the other.
For example, some speakers can barely read their own written notes.:)

But I do agree, doing both well is idea and should be the goal.

Tom
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 9, 2019 08:13PM)
[quote]On May 9, 2019, tommy wrote:
But those who can speak, write, address a crowd, communicate with precision, will always rise to the top in every field of endeavour - except for those who don't. [/quote]
Correct. I have never known of a successful CEO or a Superintendent or a Military leader who was a poor communicator.
As you have wisely stated, not all good communicators make it to the top, but those at the top, who are successful, are invariably good communicators.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 10, 2019 05:28AM)
In logic, a tautology (from the Greek word ταυτολογία) is a formula or assertion that is true in every possible interpretation. An example of a tautology is "(x equals y) or (x does not equal y)". A less abstract example is "The ball is green or the ball is not green".
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 10, 2019 08:02AM)
Correct. Another fine example of the importance of English in the sciences.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (May 10, 2019 08:04AM)
While there are many politicians that I think sound like drunken idiots when they address the public, I'm not restricting my comment to those in politics.

I've seen presentations by successful CEOs that are ... just not great. Not bad, per se, but nothing you wouldn't expect to see in a high school English presentation.

While I agree the ability to communicate is a bonus, I strongly doubt there's much more correlation between the ability to communicate and "Rising to the top". I think creativity and the ability to understand and adapt to ambiguous situations is probably a better indicator. It would not surprise me to find out that people who are excellent communicators end up being second in command to the top execs, due to their ability to take the exec's ideas and translate it for the rest of the company.

Of course, I'd be happy to peruse any studies you might have available that prove the correlation.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 10, 2019 08:06AM)
I'm not great at math. Trigonometry is my extent. I am a public speaker, spelling bee champion, and past valedictorian. My weakness? Trying to type thoughts with my index finger on this little silver rectangle.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (May 10, 2019 08:13AM)
I never made it past Algebra II - once they put the alphabet into math it stopped making sense to me. Never need anything beyond basics in my daily life, so I don't sweat it.

But hey, apparently this my 2000th post. Hooray.

I also agree with what was said previously - being able to speak in public and being able to clearly put thoughts into text are two different, though related, skills. The patience to deal with phone keyboards is entirely unrelated to either.
Message: Posted by: E.S. Andrews (May 10, 2019 08:19AM)
Magicfish,

I applaud your recognition of the importance of grammar and its related rules governing punctuation, capitalization, and spelling to a flourishing society and an actualized citizenry. Correct away. Better labeled a jerk than remain tacitly complicit in the erosion of our ability effectively to express ourselves and be understood--a root cause for the decline in America's leadership in fields that it once dominated, retardation of public discourse, stymied individual and societal potential, and squandered offerings of the human experience.

Please forgive my own contemptible obnoxiousness in pointing out a grammatical slip-up in your first post: disagreement between subject and verb. "It is our educational system's failure to correct . . . that have [sic] partially led...." "Spelling, grammar, and punctuation is [sic] as important...." The (state of being) verbs should be "has" and "are" to agree with their subjects.

Sheepishly,

ESA
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 10, 2019 08:27AM)
No need to be sheepish. I thank you for the coaching. When it comes to English, I am no expert, but I care about it and strive for quality. Thanks again.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (May 10, 2019 09:21AM)
Question - what about code switching?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 10, 2019 10:43AM)
Being able to communicate with the written word is a much more different and in many ways difficult skill than communicating with the spoken word. It takes little education to speak. On the other hand rules of grammar and proper punctuation and dare I say spelling require quite a bit of education.

But theae skills are not one size fits all. To communicate well with those not as educated in grammar you do not need to use perfect grammar. As a matter of fact it may be a bad idea.

Effective communication is knowing your audience.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 10, 2019 10:43AM)
From CQD to SOS?
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (May 10, 2019 11:26AM)
[quote]On May 10, 2019, tommy wrote:
From CQD to SOS? [/quote]

[quote]code-switch·ing
noun: code-switching

the practice of alternating between two or more languages or varieties of language in conversation.[/quote]

As Danny said - different groups communicate in different ways, for different reasons. The concept of what is "proper" is changing, because language is constantly evolving. And I think few language evolve as radically and rapidly as English, which is really just a stapled-together-Frankenstein's-monster-esque conglomeration of a variety of other languages.

Slavishly adhering to the rules of "proper" grammar may, in fact, make you unable to effectively communicate with a rather large portion of our society. If one is to be an effective communicator one will also have to be able to code switch between different dialects and languages, which means purposely not using "proper" grammar at times. Example: I grew up in rural PA. I can guarantee you that if you came here and started correcting people's grammar you would soon find yourself with no one's grammar to correct.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 10, 2019 11:38AM)
Hence the overall downgrade in literacy mentioned earlier. By your logic, we'll all be grunting in 50 years
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 10, 2019 11:39AM)
"English, which is really just a stapled-together-Frankenstein's-monster-esque conglomeration of a variety of other languages."
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but you say this as though it is a negative thing. On the contrary , it is what makes English such a wonderful language.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (May 10, 2019 12:28PM)
[quote]On May 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Hence the overall downgrade in literacy mentioned earlier. By your logic, we'll all be grunting in 50 years [/quote]

No, we'll just be pronouncing things different, and maybe saying them in different orders.

English in Shakespeare's time didn't sound like what we speak now, and going back further it was closer to German as I understand it.

Language evolves, pronunciations evolve, grammar evolves. That can't happen if people insist on keeping it static with strict rules.


[quote]On May 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
"English, which is really just a stapled-together-Frankenstein's-monster-esque conglomeration of a variety of other languages."
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but you say this as though it is a negative thing. On the contrary , it is what makes English such a wonderful language. [/quote]

I wasn't saying it's negative, or positive. It just is.
Message: Posted by: gallagher (May 11, 2019 02:33PM)
"Pessimism and syntax are the opium of the middle classes."
(Raymond Chandler)

👍
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 11, 2019 08:39PM)
There's been a generation of research on advice giving behavior.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ulterior-motives/201805/giving-advice-creates-sense-power

Some folks did very well selling opium (opioids - fentanyl) to the masses.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 11, 2019 09:09PM)
I am a lay back sort of guy. It is good and bad. I stay calm in stressful situations whereas the more hyper sort of fellow lossless it.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 12, 2019 12:50AM)
[quote]On May 10, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:
[quote]On May 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Hence the overall downgrade in literacy mentioned earlier. By your logic, we'll all be grunting in 50 years [/quote]

No, we'll just be pronouncing things different, and maybe saying them in different orders.

English in Shakespeare's time didn't sound like what we speak now, and going back further it was closer to German as I understand it.

Language evolves, pronunciations evolve, grammar evolves. That can't happen if people insist on keeping it static with strict rules.


[quote]On May 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
"English, which is really just a stapled-together-Frankenstein's-monster-esque conglomeration of a variety of other languages."
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but you say this as though it is a negative thing. On the contrary , it is what makes English such a wonderful language. [/quote]

I wasn't saying it's negative, or positive. It just is. [/quote]
Evolving doesn't have to mean degrading.
No we don't speak Shakesperian. Top notch English then doesn't sound like top notch English now, but quality is quality and it can be seen and heard in any era.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 12, 2019 11:41AM)
The grammar Nazis are usually the middle wannabe upper classes. Wearing glasses and talking posh like is more to do with them keeping up with the Joneses. The working and upper class have more in common as they talk naturally.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 12, 2019 11:42AM)
[quote]On May 12, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On May 10, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:
[quote]On May 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Hence the overall downgrade in literacy mentioned earlier. By your logic, we'll all be grunting in 50 years [/quote]

No, we'll just be pronouncing things different, and maybe saying them in different orders.

English in Shakespeare's time didn't sound like what we speak now, and going back further it was closer to German as I understand it.

Language evolves, pronunciations evolve, grammar evolves. That can't happen if people insist on keeping it static with strict rules.


[quote]On May 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
"English, which is really just a stapled-together-Frankenstein's-monster-esque conglomeration of a variety of other languages."
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but you say this as though it is a negative thing. On the contrary , it is what makes English such a wonderful language. [/quote]

I wasn't saying it's negative, or positive. It just is. [/quote]
Evolving doesn't have to mean degrading.
No we don't speak Shakesperian. Top notch English then doesn't sound like top notch English now, but quality is quality and it can be seen and heard in any era. [/quote]

You have a preference. Cool. Others do as well. Why not allow for that?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 12, 2019 04:33PM)
It's just a level of competency with our tools. Language is a tool for the conveyance of ideas. With a mastery of that tool, one can convey precisely what he or she is thinking. In my opinion, few things are as important.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (May 12, 2019 05:58PM)
[quote]On May 10, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:
Question - what about code switching? [/quote]
As a presupposed choice in directed communication within some context... seems rational.

Emojis all the way down?
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (May 12, 2019 06:40PM)
[quote]On May 10, 2019, tommy wrote:
In logic, a tautology (from the Greek word ταυτολογία) is a formula or assertion that is true in every possible interpretation. An example of a tautology is "(x equals y) or (x does not equal y)". A less abstract example is "The ball is green or the ball is not green".[/quote]
These are tautologies in Aristotelian logic, but not in all systems of logic (in particular, not in those that don't assume [i]principium tertii exclusi[/i] (the law of the excluded middle)).
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (May 12, 2019 06:49PM)
[quote]On May 10, 2019, WitchDocChris wrote:
If one is to be an effective communicator one will also have to be able to code switch between different dialects and languages, which means purposely not using "proper" grammar at times.[/quote]
For example:
[youtube]yzIcec_bQss[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (May 12, 2019 08:08PM)
[quote]On May 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
"English, which is really just a stapled-together-Frankenstein's-monster-esque conglomeration of a variety of other languages."
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but you say this as though it is a negative thing. On the contrary , it is what makes English such a wonderful language.[/quote]
[i]English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over, and rummages through their pockets for loose grammar.[/i]
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 12, 2019 11:19PM)
There are not many old recordings of peoples voices but recently discovered were thousands of recordings of WW1 British prisoners of war made by the Germans. The other day I watched an interesting documentary about it. It was made by a young lady who teaches actors accents. One thing she said was that people tend to speak in a way that relates to their terrain. People who live in mountainous places tend to have a wide range, while those of flat lands tend to have a flatter more monotone way of speaking.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (May 13, 2019 02:57AM)
Interesting. I wonder what other human characteristics correspond or are born from their surroundings. I understand Shirpas are able to breathe easier at high altitudes than peoples of lowlands.
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 13, 2019 09:26AM)
Sailors tend to look up, land lovers down, as a result of how we navigate.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (May 13, 2019 10:23AM)
[quote]On May 12, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
[i]English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over, and rummages through their pockets for loose grammar.[/i] [/quote]

Yes, precisely.