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Topic: Gimmicks vs sleight of hand (coins)
Message: Posted by: mkhodadoust.24 (Aug 4, 2019 07:06AM)
Hey guys. Yesterday I was having a discussion with a friend of mine on whether to do coin magic with gimmicks or with sleight of hand. I was arguing for sleight of hand while he opposed and was arguing for gimmicks . My argument was that with sleight of hand at the end of any routine you can hand out the coins to be examined and can perform magic anywhere rather than only when you have those altered pieces of silver on you. His argument was that with gimmicks you can solely focus on your presentation and can perform surrounded.

Can you please tell me your thoughts since this is an argument most magicians have and I want to know where I stand. I do own a lot of gimmicks but not nearly as much as him. To conclude my state, I want to know what you do coin magic mostly with, if you started coin magic with gimmicks or sleight of hand. Or if you keep switching out the gimmick for the real coin...

Thanks

Milaad nasser mehran khodadoust
Message: Posted by: funsway (Aug 4, 2019 07:50AM)
Both approaches require special moves and handling - and most gimmicked/gaffed coins still require sleights.
Ideally, both have a "never happened" orchestration in a routine which is more important than your choice.

So, it may come down to "What does your audience expect by way of magic," and "What are your trying to accomplish as an end result."

Many of the sleights you might learn can be used with other objects than coins, while a coin set cost money and has limited uses.
This is why many performers might have a C/S and an EXP [ and can perform dozens of effects.

Thus, I guess that I disagree with "argument most magicians have." Nothing to argue about as there is not "better than," just "other than."
To choose one over the other is to limit oneself and place too much importance on prop over audience engagement, routining and appropriateness.

Certainly, I have a CSB, TUC, folding coin and more, but ...

I made a list of 43 effects using small objects that I have mastered using only six sleights. This includes the effects using "special coins."
If "surrounded" the choices drop in half, but that has little to do with the nature of the coin.

Maybe the real question is, "Do you plan on doing tricks or doing magic?"
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 4, 2019 08:21AM)
I began "doing" coin stuff when I was 15. --Mainly, Misers Dream (with Downs plm). At 18, I could do 5 coin star, and a year or so later, a 4 coin roll.

I met Bobo when I was 21+ and, continued with sleights. I did experiment with a few gaffed coins, but soon forgot about them, and stayed with sleights.

Bobo and I were friends, until he died.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Aug 4, 2019 09:29AM)
You use the right Tool for the Right Job. I like To combine the two ! So then it can't be S.O.H. Because you did This And it can't Be a gaff because You did this ! What you want is for it to look Like MAGIC !!! But Yea You should Lure You S.O.H . 1 st. the old masters use to say " the only one who can get away with the Judicious use of a gaff is someone who does not need one. Most of the Stuff yea You can Do With just S.O.H. But does it look Like you are doing something Of does it look Like MAGIC ! The Big thing Is not HOW but WHEN ! Most people Don't want to take the Time to lean WHEN ! Then is a lot of sell, And Acting in Using a gaff! And people know that you got something There! So it takes as much as time to use a gaff Right As It does To Lean S.O.H. right ! So using a gaff! You have to Ask ! WHO ? WHERE ? And The Big one Is WHEN !!!
Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Aug 4, 2019 10:55AM)
My rule if thumb is to use a gaff if it makes your sleight of hand look cleaner (such as a [ instead of an extra coin) or if it allows you to do something that can not be done with only sleight of hand (such as a cigarette through quarter). The first requirement depends on your ability. As many performers can perform good sleight of hand without the need for a gaff.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Aug 4, 2019 11:11AM)
Lots of good thoughts here, 😊 and I agree that both genres have their place. It’s good to mix the two when you can, it usually makes for even more magic with a bit of impossibilia to it. But for me, SOH is first and foremost, the basic math to any greater calculus here. You know why....because gimmicked coins present an easy way to doing a trick, most time it allows you to skip by the harder work. But the harder work is truly the good stuff, it’s the building blocks, and to understand it is to understand the old adage about, “...Teaching a man to fish...,” or something like that. 😊

I’m happy I took the time to learn & practice good SOH, it has made me a much better magician & performer. And don’t get me wrong, I still like the little tricky coins too, love some of the things you can do with them. There’s a load of good stuff out there, but I’ve had a great deal of fun over the years with some of the simpler pieces, like a [ and or the old, C/S coin. Lots of good magic in those, and I think I would’ve been a bit less as to my coin magic without them. 😉
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Aug 4, 2019 11:48AM)
Nothing wrong with good old Hard core S.O.H. I Have a few routines Where I Back-palm 3 Coins. Or 2 and a Shell !!! :) But when I work for Layman Give me 4 coins And A shell. And a close up pad ! And I can go on for Hour's !!! :)
Message: Posted by: mkhodadoust.24 (Aug 4, 2019 12:23PM)
Ive been doing coin magic for only 4 months, what is an SOH

most likely I know what it is but don't recall the abbreviation
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Aug 4, 2019 12:29PM)
Slight Of Hand ! :)
Message: Posted by: Makaveli (Aug 4, 2019 12:58PM)
I think that gimmicks are inevitable if you want to step your game up to another level but I'd suggest firstly to master everything you possibly can with sleight of hand because there is so much to do. You can perform miracles with sleight of hand only if you do it right. But yeah, gimmicks are a game changer.
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Aug 4, 2019 03:31PM)
Mkhodadoust.24

It doesn't matter.
Gimmicks can be more difficult to handle than straight props.
Yes gimmicks can be more magical but the work can be triple.
Drop a [ (turtle?) on the table and it bounces funny.
Be careful when it tinks against another coin.
And be careful when one rests beside another coin. They can look different.
Then put a turtle on a solid when on a surface that has fibers, a fiber can be caught between them.
This can be very embarrassing as the trick progresses. Been there, done that.
Then, you could bend it when carrying it around.

But the bottom line is what your audience enjoys.
They are the judge.
Do both. Then do the one they like the best.

Entertainment is senior to the magic. The quality of the magic supports the quality of the entertainment.
Again, the audience is the judge. You bow to them at the end of an act.

Al
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 5, 2019 07:31AM)
I still PREFER Sleights, but, to be honest, I get a lot of "mileage" from "COIN-GO" (I've sold hundreds at lectures!
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Aug 5, 2019 09:02AM)
I used to hang with Larry Jennings. He tells the story of an incident when he just got into magic. He bought a Coin Go.. He thought it was a common knowledge trick. At a magic meeting he did it for a few of the guys. One guy said he really liked his handling. Larry did it again for him. The guy appreciated it and said something about the handling again. This happened several times. Eventually the guy swore at Larry and walked away. Larry finally figured out the guy wanted an explanation on how it worked and got upset when Larry did not share. Larry thought the guy knew.

If you are new to magic, get a Coin Go and master it and do it often. You will get a reputation of doing great magic.

Al
Message: Posted by: funsway (Aug 5, 2019 09:13AM)
For me, the ultimate coin effect is a "vanish to empty" in a spectator's hand, i.e.
they "know" there is a coin in their hand, feel it, protect it - but it vanishes.
This is easier to do with an EXP [, (two coins in hand and one extracted), but even more astonishing when done with a single coin requiring sleights alone.
BUT - both require the ability to condition the spectator to know there is a coin in their hand (believing is not enough)
This requires psychological ploys, tactile conditioning and trust that have nothing to do with the choice of gaff/sleight.

It also requires the forbearance NOT to perform it unless the conditions are right.

I only mention this approach because if you rely mostly on gimmicks as a shortcut or convenience you will never be able to perform an effect such as this.
You may not wish to pursue such a level of impossible magic, and that is OK.

The key is to create the conditions under which magic can happen. If a gaffed coin/gimmick serves that end, use it.
But the tail never wags the dog. I created 38 new effects for the TUC to accompany those from Mr Tango and other contributors for the book "T.U.C. Appreciation."
How many do I perform? 2-3. That fact that I have several TUC and know 60+ uses doe snot mandate that I use them.
But, the experience of writing the book also led to many new effects not using the TUC or other gaff/gimmick.

Again - no argument found here, just creativity and embracing awe&wonder.
Message: Posted by: Last Laugh (Aug 6, 2019 02:07PM)
Forgive my ignorance, but can someone enlighten me a little about Coin-Go? Not familiar and I don't seem to see them listed on coin gaff sites. Is there another name?
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 6, 2019 03:00PM)
I was in the Navy in Norfolk, VA.,in 1951. I visited the now defunct EdMar Magic Shop. The owner was friendly. I would help out behind the counter. There was a "pile" of COIN GO(S) on a shelf. They were $.25. They weren't selling, I showed Earl Edwards, the owner, how to do it. We sold hundreds after that.

I've used it for 60 years, especially in strolling work in hospitality suites.

I was working the Magic Castle in '79, and, drove the young guys nuts with coin go!!! I have sold hundreds of them at my lectures around the country, for years, at $5.00 each!

I'll think it over, friend Cassidy! (This is very "inside!")
Message: Posted by: Hare (Aug 6, 2019 03:18PM)
The topic of sleight of hand and "self working" coin tricks is more of matter of the magician's own psychology, then it is about what the audience sees.

For me anyways, solid sleight of hand skill gives me more satisfaction and a sense of wonder about what I am doing. It is almost like you the magician, with no props or help of any kind, ARE doing ACTUAL magic.

This adds a sense of accomplishment, a knowledge that no matter where you are, who you are with, and whatever the circumstances, you can always amaze people with your ability alone. Which, is what a real wizard would do.

If you think about it, it is a powerful and very satisfying feeling to be able to perform uncanny coin mysteries with just your own two hands.

Props and gimmicks are fun. I think that for the most part, I buy stuff like this for my own amusement, as much as to entertain others with them. Very occasionally, a very solid and versatile item will pop up that can be integrated many different ways into a sleight of hand routine. TUC comes to mind, and Quiver, Blackout, and a good old Down's coin rattle all offer many possible uses. I guess I enjoy gimmicks that are versatile tools to add to- not replace, sleight of hand skills, mostly.

There are magicians who are very charismatic, and who most enjoy interacting with people, over the more technical and tedious sleight of hand work. Very visual, colorful props, I think, tend to be favored by the naturally gifted actors among us, and the more quiet and introverted a magician is, they more of a reader and studier they might be, the more he or she is likely to immerse themselves into the more self-pleasing hand magic. Just my opinion, of course.

It's an interesting topic.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Aug 6, 2019 04:12PM)
Just wondering here, but is this like the old "Coin Catcher & Vanisher" trick? If so, I used to have that thing. Had a lot of fun with it too. :D
Message: Posted by: Hare (Aug 6, 2019 04:21PM)
It sounds to me like it could be Jim Swoger's "Vanishing Nickel" little gem of a gimmick.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Aug 6, 2019 08:36PM)
Would that also be like Fickle Nickel (John Cornelius)? I had that one too. Nice trick but practicing SOH out-paced it for me, but mileage may vary on that.
Message: Posted by: danny (Aug 7, 2019 02:45AM)
For me, it is not an either/or question. If you combine sleight of hand with gimmicks then in some cases everything can be examined. Further more, if you start with sleight of hand and they are the type of audience that want to examine everything, then later on when you employ a gimmick they may be satisfied enough from the previous examination that everything is tickety boo.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 7, 2019 04:20AM)
[quote]On Aug 6, 2019, Mb217 wrote:
Just wondering here, but is this like the old "Coin Catcher & Vanisher" trick? If so, I used to have that thing. Had a lot of fun with it too. :D [/quote]
Hi Mb!

I'll PM you! (I'm having fun with this!!!!! heehee
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 7, 2019 04:24AM)
[quote]On Aug 6, 2019, Hare wrote:
It sounds to me like it could be Jim Swoger's "Vanishing Nickel" little gem of a gimmick. [/quote]

I knew Jim Swoger, but, I don't remember "Vanishing Nickel"!
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 7, 2019 04:30AM)
[quote]On Aug 6, 2019, Mb217 wrote:
Would that also be like Fickle Nickel (John Cornelius)? I had that one too. Nice trick but practicing SOH out-paced it for me, but mileage may vary on that. [/quote]

Nope! Mg good friend, Doug Henning, used that. I think, on his first TV special in the mid '70s.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 7, 2019 05:53AM)
Mb217!!! I tried to PM you, but "Mb217" doesn't "work"!!!!!
Message: Posted by: karnak (Aug 7, 2019 09:54AM)
[quote]On Aug 6, 2019, Last Laugh wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but can someone enlighten me a little about Coin-Go? Not familiar and I don't seem to see them listed on coin gaff sites. Is there another name? [/quote]

Now I'm curious, too. Evidently lots of others are, as well.

Doing a search for "Coin-Go" yields little. Not asking for secrets; just want to know what "Coin-Go" is. What's the effect?
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Aug 7, 2019 11:17AM)
Oksay, [b]Coin Go[/b] is a little gimmick sold back in the 1960's. It was made and sold by the Edward O. Drane wholesale company in Chicago. It is simply a pull with a special clip that makes it possible to attach a real coin, from a penny to a half dollar. Never tried a dollar size coin. But I guess it would work. The drawback is you need to wear a jacket. So everyone on the Café would not use it anyway.

The last Coin Go clip was made very nice, and had the feature of not marking up the coin. If you wanted to you could even borrow a coin and vanish it. Then just keep the quarter, as the famous Don Alan once told me, just say, wasn't it worth a quarter to see a real miracle.

I had 2 and several years ago on the Café I sold my extra one very quickly.

I don't know who made the last one I obtained, as the Edward O. Drane company has been out of business for many years, even before the Internet. Maybe they were just old stock that was found, and sold off. Never seen them since.
Message: Posted by: karnak (Aug 7, 2019 11:23AM)
Thanks for clearing up the mystery, Bill. As a kid, I remember buying magic products made by "Enardoe" (E. O. Drane spelled backwards). They might have been SS Adams' closest competitor.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Aug 7, 2019 12:49PM)
[quote]On Aug 7, 2019, Dick Oslund wrote:
Mb217!!! I tried to PM you, but "Mb217" doesn't "work"!!!!! [/quote]

Hiya Dick, glad to see you back in action here, firing on all cylinders as usual. :D

Not sure why the PM isn't working for you, my box is not full or clogged, and I believe I've gotten a few other PMs today???


*Also appreciate that explanation of "Coin-Go" above from Bill..Thanks. ;)
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 7, 2019 04:31PM)
[quote]On Aug 7, 2019, karnak wrote:
Thanks for clearing up the mystery, Bill. As a kid, I remember buying magic products made by "Enardoe" (E. O. Drane spelled backwards). They might have been SS Adams' closest competitor. [/quote]

S.S. Adams made $$$ on his 25 CENT "Joy Buzzer He owned a YACHT, named THE BUZZER!
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 7, 2019 04:34PM)
I wrote up the "story" on the coin go, and, hit the wrong button, It disappeared like that half dollar.

I'll try to get back with the history, as I know it, in a day or two,
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Aug 7, 2019 06:23PM)
Just and old fashioned elastic pull.
Should work fine with a long sleeved shirt.
This is a fine example of a good oldie that gets rejected by the guys because they want the new flashy stuff.
Coin Go beats 80% of the new stuff on the Magic Café.
Do you want to juggle or do magic?
Message: Posted by: Wravyn (Aug 7, 2019 07:29PM)
I remember buying Coin Go from Dick at one of his lectures. Wish I still had it. Was a great item.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 9, 2019 06:41AM)
Thanks Wravyn, for the nice "promo"! When the little "clips" were no longer available. I tried improvising them. Finally, I just bored a hole in a half dollar, and, sold, them. Then it got difficult getting the black elastic! My friend, Jim Jayes, found a source and, now I have a life time supply of elastic! I'll PM you.

As far as I know, the late Harold Sterling (Detroit) first made and sold them. Earl Edward's stock had Harold's name on the little instruction card. I never saw any with Ed Drane's name. When Harold retired, Gene DeVoe (St. Louis) got all Harold's "left over" stock. I do still have Enardoe's CC knives. ($1.00 a set, in Abbott's #7 catalog!) A friend of my late friend, Roy Kissell, later "found" a source of supply for a suitable clip, but, when the friend died, so did the source.

Earl wasn't selling any, 'cuz the "motivater" was too short, and the hook up was in the performer's sleeve. No one in Norfolk, wore a coat in the summer! (Short sleeve shirts!), I showed Earl the "side show hook up", and lengthened the motivater, and, we could barely keep them in stock! Wearing a coat, made it easier, but, with care, I do it wearing only a shirt. I've used coin go since 1951! I've sold hundreds for $5.00 at my lectures.

The pull is an ancient gimmick, Too many of the young guys don't know how to use it. One of the "secrets" is that the pull should not "snatch" the coin, like a vanishing cage! It should just slowly work. Like most tricks, TIMING is the real secret.

I don't know anyone that currently sells the coin go. Perhaps it's just too "old fashioed"!!!
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Aug 9, 2019 08:27AM)
Thanks Dick for that rundown on this.

I do remember the old coin vanisher thing I had being a sorta pull and having an little elastic cord with a little plastic clip at one end that held the coin. You can see it here at this link...

http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S3113?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpsPFrPL14wIVCJyzCh2SqwLlEAQYASABEgKI3vD_BwE

But once I developed better SOH especially as to sl**ving, I didn’t play much with such mechanical things anymore. But it was fun while it lasted. 😁👍🏽
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (Aug 9, 2019 11:08AM)
Some very old magic books say the most deceptive magic is that which uses sleight of hand and gimmicks that are secretly brought in and out of play. Not necessary all the time, but it works for me. I do things with only sleight of hand, of course. But gimmicks can greatly enhance an effect.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 9, 2019 12:38PM)
I forgot to mention,,,,,Bill Hegbli said that Drane sold Coin Go in the 1960s. Well, the incident in the EdMar shop in Norfolk, was in 1951, and Harold Sterling's name was printed on the package ("Envelope magic", we called it as fancy plastic "bags" were the cheapest packaging, then). Sterling may have sold it before '51.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Aug 9, 2019 03:40PM)
For those who prefer gimmicked/gaffed coin effects the one ESSENTIAL sleight is the Utility Switch.
You wish to employ coins the audience thinks are normal, yet avoid the "examine" request or directive, both that imply the coin might be gimmicked.
You want a handling where the thought of "examine" never occurs at all. Psychology as Dick directs.

Dump a variety of coins on a tray and place before the spectators, possibly commenting on the variety of colors, sizes and nationality.
Observers can handle them or not out of interest with no anticipation of what will come next.

Have one handed to you and perform a magic effect with it. Perhasp ...

"A silver coin - and old style American silver half dollar. Andy, I think there is a copper coin about the same size in there.
Yes, an English Penny. Two colors, two countries." Now proceed with your favorite C/S routine.

Naturally, when taking one of the coins you Switch it for a C/S gaff using the Utility Switch.
At the end either vanish or Switch it back and drop onto the tray.

or - "to make this truly international, could someone please find me a Chinese coin about the same size. Yes, that brass one will work."
Another Switch and you perform your special CSB routine.

This sleight works well since it is very natural to be passing coins form one hand to the other and back and forth with spectators.

Be sure to talk about "their coin" or "your coin" during the presentation.

Gee - I guess you may need a couple of Steal spots about your body, but a pocket separated by cards can work too.
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (Aug 9, 2019 08:56PM)
Excellent funsway and Dick. The psychology of a switch is rarely discussed. Yes, doing it on an offbeat or as a path to something else.
Message: Posted by: warren (Aug 10, 2019 04:40AM)
Whilst I strongly favour SOH I do also use the odd gimmick if I think it will enhance an effect. However for me it's SOH first as this usually means I can just pull the coins out and I can begin, meaning I don't have to set anything beforehand and I don't have to worry about any reset which is an important factor in a working situation.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Aug 10, 2019 06:10AM)
Once you've set it up ( a FEW MINUTES) YOU CAN REPEAT IT ALL NIGHT, WITH NO MORE SET UPS!

I wrote up the "story" of the Coin Go in my book ("DICK OSLUND -- ROAD SCHOLAR". which is still selling all over the world.

I described the handling in detail. (Joe Stevens carries my book in stock.)
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Aug 10, 2019 11:05AM)
[quote]On Aug 9, 2019, countrymaven wrote:
Some very old magic books say the most deceptive magic is that which uses sleight of hand and gimmicks that are secretly brought in and out of play. Not necessary all the time, but it works for me. I do things with only sleight of hand, of course. But gimmicks can greatly enhance an effect. [/quote]

Yep, I completely agree...But like my grandpa used to say, "I can show'ya better than I can tell'ya!" :D

[YOUTUBE]cFk5PcrIwdc[/YOUTUBE]

*Or, you can just do things the old fashioned way... ;)

[YOUTUBE]HqJBgbFviro[/YOUTUBE]
Message: Posted by: Bearded_Ste (Aug 18, 2019 01:06PM)
It really isn't an 'either or' answer on this one. There are lots of effects that use a gimmicked coin that end with you being able to end clean and able to hand out the coin for inspection. For me it's more a case of pocket space or enough space for hold outs. If you can organise your gimmicks so that you can easily get to them when you want without them interfering with other objects you use then why not. The main thing is the impact on your audience.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 18, 2019 03:59PM)
[quote]On Aug 4, 2019, mkhodadoust.24 wrote:
Ive been doing coin magic for only 4 months, what is an SOH

most likely I know what it is but don't recall the abbreviation [/quote]
Is this about how you feel about the tricks or what's practical when you perform for people?
Message: Posted by: funsway (Aug 18, 2019 07:59PM)
The various answers here prompt me to approach this from a different angle.
There are many reasons why you might be performing. Let's pretend for a moment that your objective
is to have the spectator telling his friends, "must be magic - no other explanation." How might you accomplish that?

The first step is to only perform if the expectation is "magic," or at least the possibility is in the audience's experience.
The second step to to create astonishment - a disruption of the normal brain processing functions of data and stimuli.

possibilities are:

use a gaffed coin such as a C/S that can change its appearance and derail expectations.

use a gimmicked coin such as an EXP [ that allows one coin to appear as two and confabulate expectations.

to use SOH such as a fake-take to cause the observer to think the coin is other than where it is thought to be.

to use a series of sleights to cause the coin to be elsewhere than where it is known to be,

to use a psychological ploy to make the observer believe the coin is other than where it is known to be.

to use a psychological ploy to have them believe a coin exist at all.

to create conditions under which magic is expected and occurs regardless of method.

I suggest that any accomplished coin magician should be able to use all of these approaches and interchange them according to setting and audience.

There may be approaches I have not listed. I am hear to learn.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 19, 2019 12:57PM)
If your method is deceptive the audience won't know whether you used a mechanical table, stooges or hypnotism.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Aug 19, 2019 02:48PM)
Three more for my list ;)
Message: Posted by: countrymaven (Aug 22, 2019 08:47PM)
Yes I used to think of gimmicks versus no gimmicks. But when you get better, you can bring gimmicks in and out. Without them being aware of them. So as you get better, it is more like I can bring a gimmick in and ditch it. It is more like if I want to use a gimmick, I can, and they will have no clue because it will be gone before they even look for it.

I love this: If your method is deceptive the audience won't know whether you used a mechanical table, stooges or hypnotism. Thanks Jonathan!!!

The problem is I still can't figure out how to bring a mechanical table with me when I need it. I also don't seem to have stooges available just when I need them either. But I will just have to work on my hypnotism. hehe.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Aug 22, 2019 10:14PM)
The audience needs to feel that you did something. Whether you demonstrate some spooky force of nature or you're showing off a mechanical table - it's something. It's the rug you pull out from under them later. That can be as cute as the cartoon bit of wiping your eyeglasses with a handkerchief and later passing the handkerchief through the frame as you clean it. For the table, maybe the coins penetrate though one spot you cover - you take away the cover and pretend there's a trap door. You fold the door closed after the last coin has dropped through the table - eye the area and drop the coins onto it - all but one land safely and no trap doors spring open. You look around - get some help and lift the table. The missing coin was under one of the table legs. Just presentation. Make it interesting for the audience. :)
Message: Posted by: funsway (Aug 23, 2019 04:28AM)
[quote]On Aug 22, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
The audience needs to feel that you did something. Whether you demonstrate some spooky force of nature or you're showing off a mechanical table - it's something. It's the rug you pull out from under them later... Just presentation. Make it interesting for the audience. :) [/quote]

This would meet my definition of "magical" rather than "magic" - but admit my views may have to change (and have been for years)

I will always champion those effects that can possibly produce a 30 year memory of "must be magic,"
or the preparedness of any magician to do so when the conditions are right.

BUT - I now feel that getting any person off of video games and unsocial media to do something LIVE is a good thing.
Presenting "spoking forces of nature," sharing an optical illusion, demonstrating a slide rule or doing sponge bunnies can be a good thing.

I may weep over the loss of new audiences to appreciate 'better magic', but that is also the result of trivialization by Hollywood and marketers.
I am not suggesting presenting unpracticed tricks. Gimmicks may make it easier to do some tricks than learning sleights or even juggling skills.

It is the alternative that I dread even more - a culture where most citizens have only vicarious experience, with little motivation to create or imagine
anything beyond what is fed to them by marketers, politicians, clergy and educators.

If I were king I would require that every person preform something "live and unusual" every week - ideally in an electronic dead zone.
I would be out there performing newly created effects that would confabulate even experienced magicians - but not expect that of others --
and I would applaud the kid who can balance a broom on her finger for five minutes, or push a pencil though a $5.00 frame.

At least, as Jonathan suggests, "you did something." "Rug pulling" can come later.
Message: Posted by: padre rich (Aug 30, 2019 10:41PM)
As you age skill fades.it's a fact.nobody thinks about their "second act" what to do as an older performer.gimmicks can take the pressure off when your hands aren't as agile.charlie miller said he wished he hadn't spent so much time on things he didn't use.very astute.the big secret of magic is picking the right material at the right time in your life.we've all seen the guys who tinkered w/their acts and eventually ruined them.also,the guys who should've stopped performing all together.sad cases at club meetings, get in the middle of a trick and forget where they are in the routine.clever is better than skill in later life.get ready, it's coming...
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Aug 31, 2019 01:13AM)
Padre rich

What are you talking about? I am 76, just had quadruple bypass surgery, and a heart valve replaced. Two weeks ago I did an old time country fair. They put me in a tent and I did things like ambitions card, coins across, and matrix. It went great. I haven't recovered totally yet so they put a cot in the back of the tent if I felt dizzy. Fortunately, I did not need it. been doing matrix since I was seventeen. Came up with the coins across routine about a year ago and developed it even more during my performances at the fair. It has become one of my more solid effects. It really wowed the kids. I am just stunned reading your post. ?????
Message: Posted by: funsway (Aug 31, 2019 05:18AM)
"nobody thinks about their "second act" what to do as an older performer" - any such universal claim is doomed from the beginning and detracts fro the point of your message.

"hand agility" is just another disability that many persons have dealt with all of their life. We all are more than able is some ways relative to many people, and less able in others.

"Nobody?" I would suggest that most active performers give thought to what to do when faced with changes in physical ability.

I can readily say that I can't do 80% of what I ustacould if one considers hand agility the key factor. But, I have created more new tricks, gimmicks and magic effects/routines
in the last decade than when I was performing regularly. For me? No. To help others, partially. Mostly because I love the creative process. Not a function of age.
If I were to loose my hands completely tomorrow I would still be active in performance magic.

Now, the problem of people performing effects they cannot do for nay reason is a problem. Exposure for one.
I wish that young performers would learn that. To perform when not adequately practiced and rehearsed is a disability too.

I have been asked to perform for guest at my 75th birthday next month. That gives me time to explore the experience and expectations of my audience and prepare.
I have converted a walker to a magic table so that I can stand for 10 minutes. It has a well it in! Such fun.
Message: Posted by: padre rich (Aug 31, 2019 11:57PM)
Really?you were stunned? all we can hope for is that you recovered quickly.Not everybody can be as lucky as you,al,genetics have been good to you.enjoy life while you can.others are not so fortunate.ever notice James Coburn's hands in later life? nothing he could do about it.......saw Slydini at his last convention.it was embarrassing.i wanted him to be great.the "challenge"approach he did didn't work any more, he came off as an impatient old guy.it was sad...all I'm saying is use whatever you need to augment any decline in raw skill as you age...athletes will tell you, you wake up one morning and can't do it any more.be prepared to adjust...Bette Davis said,"getting old is not for sissies".....count your blessings...
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Sep 1, 2019 07:15AM)
Oh, now I get it. We should not practice skill stuff but use gimmicks because some day we will be old and not able to roll balls under a cup. Got it.
Message: Posted by: Dick Oslund (Sep 1, 2019 12:55PM)
Hey! I learned to do card flourishes, from Erdnase, in the mid''40s. I eventually could do a spring shuffle (cascade) and, get an 18" spread. I have a picture! I did a shuffle routine for all my performing years. When I retired in 2008, I stopped practicing every day. Recently, I found that I could barely
"get" 12". I still do the old routine occasionally, but now, I'm using a home made "electric" deck. I wrote it up in my book. I got it from an old D.O.P.E.SHEET published by Tommy Windsor, in the late '40s.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Sep 1, 2019 03:34PM)
Right on Al. Considering that most fast-food assumes the eater has lost all his teeth, sense of small and taste, and is too senile to remember what real food tastes like;
it is reasonable to never teach kids how to cook or try anything more exciting than mac/cheese.

When my Dad was 89 a stranger impolitely asked, "Isn't it terrible to be so old and realize how much you have forgotten and can't do?"

Dad replied, "Well, I remember a lot more than those folks who didn't make it to 89! Not sure about can't. Lot's of things I won't do like say mean things."

....

kind of chuckling at the line above "all I'm saying is use whatever you need to augment any decline in raw skill as you age."

This presumes one can only discover a "raw skill" when one is young. At 75 I am still looking forward to skills I never realized I had before.
Augmenting old skills is a sure way to restrict creativity. To only pursue a skill discovered early on might be called "stultification."

Is using a psychological ploy such as Predictive Vision a skill? Can it be augmented at any age? Can its effectiveness ever decline?

Memorizing the multiplication-table is useful skill - at least the ability to do calculations in one's mind is.
This skill is not "augmented" by using a calculator regardless of age. So, if my arthritic fingers can't hit the right button any more, what have I lost?
I don't see how using a calculator in school is a "skill." But I can understand the fear some may have over the power going out.

Sorry - just having fun a padre's expense perhaps. I am looking for value in what he might be trying to say. Is that a skill?
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Sep 1, 2019 04:53PM)
One can adapt to changing circumstances. Or one can give up.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Sep 1, 2019 08:32PM)
Entertainers may use some symbols or props associated with magic but not themselves be doing magic. It's okay to demonstrate skill or do theater or comedy which are also performing arts.

After a trick works and you want to move things along ... go ahead and make a joke or something. You'll know if a trick works when you need to do something to move things along. Al has a book about this.
[quote]On Aug 30, 2019, padre rich wrote:
...clever is better than skill ...[/quote]Not seeing any arguments against clever or recommendations to rely only upon dexterity/skill.
Message: Posted by: Jumbopenny (Oct 22, 2019 12:20AM)
[quote]On Aug 4, 2019, mkhodadoust.24 wrote:
Hey guys. Yesterday I was having a discussion with a friend of mine on whether to do coin magic with gimmicks or with sleight of hand. I was arguing for sleight of hand while he opposed and was arguing for gimmicks . My argument was that with sleight of hand at the end of any routine you can hand out the coins to be examined and can perform magic anywhere rather than only when you have those altered pieces of silver on you. His argument was that with gimmicks you can solely focus on your presentation and can perform surrounded.

Can you please tell me your thoughts since this is an argument most magicians have and I want to know where I stand. I do own a lot of gimmicks but not nearly as much as him. To conclude my state, I want to know what you do coin magic mostly with, if you started coin magic with gimmicks or sleight of hand. Or if you keep switching out the gimmick for the real coin...

Thanks

Milaad nasser mehran khodadoust [/quote]

At it's root magic is a puzzle presented to spectators with pieces of that puzzle missing. The more pieces that you keep from them the higher potential for that trick. The way to maximize missing pieces is to combine sleights with gimmicks.
With that said, your coin magic is only as good as your sleight of hand skills. Gimmicks and routining just takes it to new heights. At the beginning your focus should be to manipulate a SINGLE normal coin. Master a single coin to the point that it looks like real magic. If you can master that everything from there will look like magic. If your coin routines don't look good then your coin basics aren't there yet. Return to basics.

Your arguments for sleight of hand over gimmicks aren't valid. You say that you can't hand the gimmick out at the end of the routine. Some gimmicks can be handed out. For those that can't be then you just hold them out and hand out the normal coins. Most routines take this into account allowing your routine to be more impossible.
Your 2nd argument against gimmicks is that you can only do magic when you have those "altered pieces of silver" with you. First, how hard is it to carry around several coins in a small coin purse? Even if you only use normal coins don't you Carrie them around anyway? Usually random coins you can gather on the spot are usually too small to be seen or too small to handle. In reality you would only be carrieing around 1 or 2 gimmicked coins depending on your routines.
Also, why would you limit yourself to only performing when you have "altered pieces of silver" with you. Have routines that needs gimmicks and others that don't. Perform with what you have at hand. Decide when you want to perform, and don't feel pressured that you must.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Oct 22, 2019 11:15AM)
Lots of interesting views here. :)

Perhaps more so than not...The guy with good SOH is probably better than the guy with just gimmicks, but the guy that's good at both of them is probably the better of the two, or something like that. :)
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Oct 22, 2019 03:05PM)
Yea That is What I have been saying For Years ! And knowing WHEN To do each And WHEN To use A combo of Both of Them ! Takes Time And thought ! :)
Message: Posted by: RCarruth (Oct 24, 2019 09:01PM)
I've used gaffed coins for years.. but almost never use gaffed cards. Sometimes we forget we're performing for the public, and not other magicians. The public doesn't know and the public doesn't realize the difference, unless they're intimately familiar with gaffs. Yes, there's a certain pleasure with performing solely with SOH, but the audience doesn't appreciate the difference. It's a self-satisfaction thing...
Message: Posted by: critter (Oct 24, 2019 09:53PM)
Minimal gaffs mean less stuff to break the lines of my suit. Well used gaffs mean fewer suspicious moves.
An old camping maxim may apply: "The more you know, the less you carry." I would add "but the stuff you do carry is all useful and you know what to do with it."
Message: Posted by: RCarruth (Oct 25, 2019 07:43PM)
Agreed.. Keeping up with gaffs can be a challenge.. that's why I avoid card gaffs. It seems every effect requires a different gaff and a different deck. Coins I think are the beneficiary of gaffs -in general-... but that's solely my opinion and based on my skill level with coins.
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Oct 25, 2019 07:56PM)
Critter, that's another real good line..."The more you know, the less you carry." Ain't that the about the truth in just about anything. ;)
Message: Posted by: RCarruth (Oct 25, 2019 08:00PM)
Reminds me of flying.. the first time, a big bag and a carry-on, second time, small bag and a carry-on, third time, a back pack. :-)
Message: Posted by: funsway (Oct 26, 2019 10:06AM)
Learning to use found object means even less to carry. A mastery of about six technics and various sleights can allow for hundreds of effects with
candy, stones, nuts, etc. But, above all else, the performer must establish an expectation/desire for magic to occur.

The argument between gimmicks and SOH is like debating brands of mustard for the ham.

Why are your guests there? What do they expect? They entrusted you with preparing the meal. Savor the experience and they will also.
Message: Posted by: griz326 (May 23, 2020 01:17PM)
What I most enjoyed when I was performing was what I called, "Sleight of Mind", that is, getting inside of a person's head and playing with their perceptions. I guess a guy could do that maliciously, but I only enjoy the game if the person is enjoying the ride. I did it just yesterday at the food store with a lovely young lady (us old fat guys don't often have the opportunity to play with sweet young things ;) ). It was just a bit of a psychic game. She was cute and a lot of fun. We shared a laugh.

I carry Hopping Halves (for the story), coins for the Charming Chinese Challenge, some string and gum bands, and usually a ring and spring.
Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (May 29, 2020 10:57PM)
Using a gimmick in conjunction with slight of ha o the best of both worlds
vinny