(Close Window)
Topic: Gaff for colombini's snappy matrix
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Sep 28, 2019 10:19AM)
Hi folks,


Any suggestions on how to make this gaff or purchase it? If I used glue I'd want to use something that holds well and is nontoxic -- maybe a nonexistent combination? I've never tried to solder anything and am not handy; on the other hand, maybe this is an opportunity to learn! Or perhaps there's a craftsperson who makes this sort of thing. I tried emailing Roy Kueppers and haven't heard back.


Thanks for your help,


Bob
Message: Posted by: funsway (Sep 28, 2019 11:29AM)
Rubber cement will work. Apply and let both sides dry - BUT make sure of alignment when placing together as they will not adjust. (covalent bond)

Easy to work with up to the final placement. You can get a small bottle many places. Works great with leather and glass too. Not so good with porous material.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Sep 28, 2019 12:13PM)
Sounds good, Ken. Thanks as always.


Bob
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Sep 28, 2019 10:35PM)
I'm not sure what "snappy matrix" is. Colombini has a coin assembly on a World's Greatest Magic DVD which uses a gimmick such as this:

https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic/magic-dvds/siamese-coins/
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Sep 29, 2019 10:23AM)
Thanks, Ray. I've seen this page before but couldn't find a picture of the gimmick. From the name it's probably what I want, but I hesitate to spend $40 on a DVD that's labeled as "advanced." I'm not even intermediate!

Thanks again,

Bob
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Sep 29, 2019 10:29AM)
P. S. I'm guessing the gaff is pictured at the top of the DVD case. If so, that's pretty close to what I'm looking for. In snappy matrix, the coins don't overlap, although it's possible that the illusion is more deceptive if they overlap. Anyway, I figured I'd just go with Ken's suggestion.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Sep 29, 2019 12:42PM)
That picture at the top of the DVD case is not a faithful reproduction of the gaff. The coins do not overlap. The gimmick is well made. With all due respect to funsway, I'm not sure how strong the bond will be with rubber cement. However, I can understand you not wanting to spend $40 just for this gimmick.

Nevertheless, the Siamese Coins DVD and booklet contain material that I wouldn't label as "advanced." Plus, if you are a beginner, it will introduce you to a number of standard, basic sleights and effects.

That Aldo Colombini effect is a good one, if it's the same as the one on the WGM DVD.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Sep 29, 2019 02:04PM)
This is helpful information, Ray. I looked at the WGM DVD, and yes, that's the effect I'm talking about. Interestingly, I *think* that the gimmicked coins overlap in the WGM presentation, though it's hard to tell because the video quality isn't great. I have a later video (by an older Colombini) in which the coins are end-to-end, without overlap.


Given what you said, I need to give some thought to this. I'll probably start with Funsway's idea, and, if I can't make that work, buy the Siamese coins DVD. It does sound intriguing.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Sep 29, 2019 03:17PM)
When Aldo sent me his "Snappy" routine a decade ago it was based on two quarters glued tother. We collaborated on using a TUC instead of the gimmick.
which became the basis of Cherub Coins. The key is having two coins that can be handled as one. The construction of the gimmick is secondary to the flow of the routine.

To understand the routine I just used some 'blu tack' that worked just fine, but I would use something stronger for repeated use.

40 years ago I made a gimmick with three coins using rubber cement. It is still a drawer somewhere ready to use since I can't get the coins apart.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Sep 29, 2019 03:29PM)
Thanks, Ken -- I have a couple of questions. What is a TUC? Whose routine is Cherub Coins? Can you describe it? Where might I find it? (Please PM me if this involves revealing anything that shouldn't be. :) )


I'll keep in mind what you said about flow.


Very cool that you collaborated with Colombini. As I remember, you've worked with other well-known magicians as well. And "covalent bonds" (!) You're a man of many talents.


See you,


Bob
Message: Posted by: dpe666 (Sep 29, 2019 07:48PM)
The best version of this type of gimmick that I have ever seen is the e pluribus unum gimmick by Timothy wenk. Unfortunately he is not making it at this time. If he ever decides to put it back out, I recommend Everyone by one immediately.
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Sep 29, 2019 08:19PM)
I think on the WGM video, Colombini uses half-dollars. Like I said, it's a great routine, very clean, and fooled me the first time I saw it.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Sep 29, 2019 08:38PM)
What drew me to Colombini's method was that it looks fairly easy to learn (at least, in the scheme of things -- I don't expect to learn it well in less than several months at this point in my educational training). Also, I have a story that goes with this type of reverse matrix effect that I'm excited about. So it's good, Ray, to hear you've had good real-life experience with it.


P. S. to Ken: I missed the part about the coins lying in your drawer. I guess rubber cement works!
Message: Posted by: Ray Haining (Sep 29, 2019 09:58PM)
Well, if you mean by "real-life experience" that I've performed it, I haven't. Coin assemblies aren't, or haven't been, my thing, although I've researched the idea (along with a few others) endlessly. I was impressed with Aldo's because it was so clean and a real fooler. I thought of learning it, but don't have the gimmick, so I put the idea aside for a while. However, my interest has been rekindled because of this thread. I'm curious to know if the rubber cement does the trick, so to speak. Please let us know.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Sep 30, 2019 08:54AM)
And I had the Same Thing in Print As Snappy Matrix In my first Set of Lecture Notes 40 Years ago! Name of notes Sightly Gaff. Name of Trick Matrix Climax ! ;(
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Sep 30, 2019 01:45PM)
I'll let everybody know about my attempts to make the gaff, Ray. Glad your interest has been renewed.


David, Is this the same trick that you mentioned in our email correspondence?


Bob
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Sep 30, 2019 02:17PM)
Yea One of the Two ! :)
Message: Posted by: funsway (Sep 30, 2019 06:21PM)
[quote]On Sep 29, 2019, Bob G wrote:
Thanks, Ken -- I have a couple of questions. What is a TUC? Whose routine is Cherub Coins? Can you describe it? Where might I find it?
Bob [/quote]

Normally I would answer privately as the answers would drag this thread away from your theme. But I feel it is worth emphasizing that Also's Snappy
relies on handling two coins as one with easy moves. There are several gaffs that can accomplish this, as pointed by Aldo himself.

The TUC - actually T.U.C., stands for "The Ultimate Coin" created by Tango Magic a decade ago. I have many sleights that employ tossing a small object secretly fro one hand to another,
and immediately appreciated the gaff as staying together in flight. I modified some earlier effects to utilize this feature and sent them to Marcello. This started many conversations -
and eventually a request by him to organize TUC effects into a book. His English was inadequate to this task and he hoped that written descriptions might inspire others to create new effects for his "baby."

Though I eventually created 38 new effects for the book to add to his many, we agreed to send requests to many well-known coin works see see if they would create an effect - the carrot
being a free TUC if they sent one to me, published or not. Aldo was one of these and immediately responded with some handling ideas, but no new routine. But, he did send me a copy
of Snappy to see what I could do with it - recognizing that the "double pass" of the TUC could possibly fill the role of his Gaff. Our communication quickly evolved beyond the simple
theme of Snappy. He applauded my use of a folded dollar bill instead of a card and suggested I not refer to Snappy at all. I wrote it up in a way that he got to keep the TUC as a creator and still
sell his Snappy with my encouragement. The book "T.U.C. Appreciation" is available from lulu.com in various formats.

Cherub Coins is a series of effects using a dollar bill folded like winks - hence the name. Part of the moves are influenced by Snappy, other from different coin transportation effects,
and a couple the just 'came to life' during the process. There are some acquitments not possible with cards and some handlings only possible with the TUC features.
I have written up these effects as a separate ebook that you can have when ready. First master Snappy and embrace the reactions of live observers. If it fits your developing style
you may eventually may want to explore the benefits of a TUC.

Sadly, my arthritic fingers can no longer handle this routine with confidence. If I do ever get around to producing some step-sequence DVD's, Cherub Coins will be high on the list.

You have made a fine choice in exploring Snappy, and might find many of Aldo's treatment of value to your learning. Simple and with a touch of love.
Message: Posted by: funsway (Sep 30, 2019 06:26PM)
PS - Dave Neighbors also contributed some ideas for the book on combining the TUC with an Okito box.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Sep 30, 2019 08:03PM)
Many thanks for this long and interesting story, Ken. (Ouch! -- my fingers are hurting in sympathy with you after all that typing you did.) I will certainly be interested in your ebook when, as you say, I'm ready -- also your moves that "employ tossing a small object secretly from one hand to another" and your false transfers specially tailored for balls as opposed to coins -- after I've mastered the French Drop, as we've discussed. (I'm thinking about trying Aaron Fisher's FD, which I think he calls the Toboggan Drop or something like that -- he goes into a lot of detail about the sleight, and then about misdirection and construction.)


Thanks for your affirmation of my choice of "Snappy." That gives me confidence to move forward.


In my characteristic zig-zag way, rather like the path of the little boy in Family Circus, I'm making progress, mostly with packet tricks. And my Biddle Move, which for a long time eluded me, is starting to come in. (I have a little Sherlock Holmes story to go with the Biddle Trick, and am excited to be closer to being able to master the trick and marry it to the story.) Meanwhile, I'm looking ahead, as I mentioned, to Matrix and a Ball-Vase trick. I don't know if the way I learn is efficient, but there's nothing I can do about it anyway. After sixty-four years of being spacey, imaginative, and both tireless and inefficient in my learning, I think I'm about ready to accept that that's who I am!


Looking forward to continued conversations with all of you...


Bob
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 31, 2019 04:20PM)
Hi everybody,


I haven't tried to make the gimmick yet for Snappy Matrix, but I'm planning to try it with two quarters and Gorilla Glue -- the latter because we already have a bottle. If that doesn't work I'll look for a very very small bottle of rubber cement. I want to use quarters because Al Schneider and others have said that effects like this are easier to learn using quarters; one can graduate to half-dollars after mastering quarters.



But I have a question. I can either make the quarters overlap (i. e., place part of one quarter on top of part of the other), or I can glue them together at the edges. The overlapping construction should be easy, so given Ken's advice that the specific construction is of secondary importance, maybe that's what I should go with. My concern is that if I perform the trick once in a while for the same audience, and they always see one coin resting slightly on the other, they might guess the nature of the gaff. Also, the overlap would increase the height of the gaff, making the gaff more prone to lift up the card it's under, even if the card were bent a bit??


On the other hand, if I glue the two coins edge to edge... Well, I'm having trouble imagining how to do this without gluing the coins, not only to each other, but also to any paper that I place them on. One solution might be to hold the coins vertically, but I don't know how to keep them in place. The G. G. instructions tell you to hold together the surfaces to be attached for about 40-50 seconds.


Any ideas, O Experienced People?


Thanks as always,


Bob
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Oct 31, 2019 04:57PM)
I always Overlap! Just Find The balance point! and put it there !
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 31, 2019 07:52PM)
Thanks so much, David. That's a big help.


Bob
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Oct 31, 2019 08:58PM)
Your Welcome ! That way You can use it for more then routine ! Also stand up stuff Like my coins to pocket ! Or other Stuff from My double Coin book ! :)
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Oct 31, 2019 09:59PM)
That's good to know, David. Where are the materials you mentioned available? I tried clicking on www.coinjurer.com and got an error message.
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Nov 1, 2019 03:05AM)
For what it is worth, done the thing with coins glued together long ago. But there is more. I used several fine wires glued to the downside of the coins. This enables the two coins to have a gap between them. Then you can color the visible thin wires to match your working surface. Why do you want that space? To put a [ (turtle?) on one coin, of course. Now extend snappy so all three coins go to the corner. Now you can see where you can get a perfect reverse Matrix where all three coins return home. Been sitting on this version for many years, And by the way Dingle got the pick up move from me at a Magi-Fest con long ago. This has been clearly documented in Genii mag long ago. Anyway, have fun with this.
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Nov 1, 2019 03:11AM)
Oh, by the way, I call that version Helix.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Nov 1, 2019 03:32AM)
Hi Bob,

I got hacked A will back And have not Been Able To get it Back up yet ! But e-mail me at coinjurer82@gmail.com And I will send you a List ! :)
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Nov 1, 2019 03:34AM)
And its called the SNAP move for Schneider New Age Pickup.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 1, 2019 07:13AM)
David, I'll email you.


And Al, Thanks for the history. Have you marketed Helix? I was hoping for a Matrix in which people actually see all four coins assembled, and then suddenly all four appear back under their original cards.


I've read your work about Matrix and remember that there were three moves, one of which is commonly called the Schneider pick up move. Is that the SNAP move?


Anyway, yes, for now I'm really looking forward to trying out the two-coin gaff.


Thanks,


Bob
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Nov 1, 2019 01:57PM)
Hi Bob,
Yea it is ! :)

And I Had my Reverse Matrix In Print In My I st. set of notes 35-40 years Long before Colombini Did ! :)
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 1, 2019 02:40PM)
As a mathematician I know how hard it is to determine who discovered something first. There's just *so* much literature out there, and it's common to find that a supposedly new result ws discovered decades ago. It seems to be the same with magic. I like a phrase that I heard a mathematician use once, that his theorem was original but probably not new! Seems like magic is the same in that way.


Bob
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Nov 1, 2019 03:47PM)
I would like to share with you some motivation behind the design of Matrix and Helix. First, such routines consist of several phases. The initial phase’s present magic but also set up for the final phase. The initial phases initialize the state of the props for magic to happen in the final phase with no finger flinging. Matrix embodies this. The first two transitions require manipulation. The final transition requires no manipulation. All that is needed is to raise the cards from the table. I attempted to build another routine with that goal. Cone and Coin was the result. Then, observing that there was interest in reverse matrices; I took a look and developed Helix. The goal was to present a somewhat normal Matrix and then simply raise the cards to reveal the coins returned. It went on a pile of new ideas that someday I would publish. One of these was Al’s Cup which just appeared in Nov. Genii. I have promised Richard (Head genii) I would offer another year’s column. Helix will probably be one of them. Cone and Coin is planned to be in that column.
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 1, 2019 06:15PM)
I appreciate knowing that, Al. I don't subscribe to Genii, though I'm sure I will eventually. Not subscribing is one way to inhibit my magic spending! But clearly I'm missing a lot of interesting material.


The gaff for Helix sounds complicated to make. Have you thought about marketing the trick with the gaff?
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 1, 2019 06:19PM)
David (and everyone), I just realized there's something I don't understand about gluing the coins at the balance point. Wouldn't that mean that the two quarters would only contact each other at two points on each quarter? (Otherwise, if you glued them together on a crescent-shape, one of the coins would tip upward, I'd think.) Would the glue with such a small contact area?
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Nov 1, 2019 06:26PM)
No set one down And set the 2 th. one on top of it , then push it to the side until It is just ready to fall off And just Balances glue it there ! :)
Message: Posted by: Al Schneider (Nov 1, 2019 07:08PM)
Bob
I have tried selling props but it is not me.
I have the attitude that the material I perform with is usually some prop I can acquire easily.
If it is not easy to buy, I must be able to make it myself.
If I sell something I feel I must sell it forever so people can get another if need be.
I have trouble doing that so I stopped doing it.
When writing about some special item, I describe how to make it.
Writing book via amazon is great. I send them a file. When someone orders it: they print it, deliver it, and put some money in my bank.
Also, the money is not worth it compared to working as a programmer.
I guess that is more than you need to know.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Nov 1, 2019 08:13PM)
Yea trying to sell books is not easy ! :( Prop's Even More so !!! :( I know I have tried to do it for 40 years !!! :)
Message: Posted by: Bob G (Nov 1, 2019 08:46PM)
Al, It's more than I *need* to know, but I found it interesting. I'm writing an offbeat (I'm tempted to call it refreshing :) ) textbook for a math course that's standard these days, in which we teach students how to prove theorems. The editor I'm working with likes the book in and of itself, but he's concerned about whether the Math Association of America would recoup its costs if it were to publish the book (the MAA is non-profit). I haven't had to deal with this sort of thing much -- the tension between creativity and salability -- because I get paid to be a math prof, whereas I don't get paid, and don't expect to be, for my research papers. Nor do I expect to earn enough money from the book to pay for the many hours I've put into it. So I can sympathize with the decisions you've made.



And David -- interesting to hear your confirmation. It's a weird conflict, because many of us find magic very expensive to buy, and yet creators, especially if they don't have other jobs, have to make a living. Nothing profound here -- it's the life of the artist, whether a magic creator, mathematician, choreographer, etc.

I'll try what you described with balancing the two coins. I've got a roll of identical coins, so I have lots of fuel for experimentation.
Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Nov 1, 2019 10:34PM)
Thanks Bob,

Yea it not the only Thing I Do ! I do shows, (Even Kid shows If I can get them! ) :) I give Lecture's , And teach Lessons ! But it is All magic ! :)