(Close Window)
Topic: Leaving the internet
Message: Posted by: Greg Arce (Oct 10, 2019 12:58PM)
I sent the following to many about what recently happened with my computer. I will be soon completely off the internet. This what I sent out: I'm am writing to several people I have at my Yahoo email.... which is deepthot666@yahoo.com

The other day my computer slowed down tremendously. Apple then sent a message that I needed to upgrade to the new OS Catalina. I did. The system crashed. I have now spent two days, a total of 10 hours, with Apple experts on the phone. As usual, I heard this from experts, "I've never seen this happen before!!" That's happened all my life.

Here's the one that made the last guy laugh along with me: So we decided that my computer couldn't handle these upgrades and did not have enough memory. It was decided to go back to the original OS which was Yosemite. He asked if I had a back up of my stuff. I did. We started the re-install. That took about an hour. Now the system said it needed to check the new install. A new time line came up as to how long it would take.

Please guess. Try a freakish number... and you won't be right. Here is what the computer said as the timeline it would take to check the new install: 729, 833,486 hours and 45 minutes. Yes, you read that right. Almost a billion hours. I told the guy I hope he's working on an hourly basis because he's going to be rich. He, of course, had never seen anything like that before in his years of working for Apple... the usual response I hear when working on a technical issue.

Anyway, we rebooted several times. Crashed or froze a bunch of times. Finally went to about an hour to re-install. Here's the kicker: After it reinstalled I was to upload stuff from my external back up onto the internal hard drive. NOPE! Lost over half of my stuff and kept getting error messages. Which he had no idea why it was happening.

This and more continued for about 5 hours on the phone. I am left with a computer that has some basic stuff and I can't seem to get into my regular iCloud email or others.

So, I'm done with technology. It hates me and I hate it. I will be removing myself from all internet sites, emails, etc. I will power down this computer in the next few day and never turn it on. What I'm going to ask Apple is how I can just turn it into a word processor so I can type stuff and print it out... but not be tied to the internet. Just want to make it a large typewriter. I am also going to stop my Dish cable. I am reverting back to around 1980 when I survived without cable, internet, computers, etc. I have to keep my flip phone because of my job or I would let that go to and get a land line with an unlisted number.

Anyway, in the next few days I'm assuming they only way you might reach me is via my cell phone or mailing address.

Right now still waiting for Apple to get back to me. They said it would take 2 days to acknowledge my computer because with the install it is now considered a new device. I need them to see if I can use my old email again to send this kind of message to all my friends so they know I can't be reached via the internet anymore.

So, consider me the new Amish. I'm done with technology.

Greg

P.S. Don't bother to write back here since I'll probably never check back once this is up. Oh, and if your solution to this is "get another computer", well, like I've told others NO!!! I'm done with technology.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 10, 2019 01:15PM)
Good move. Technology never helped anyone.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 10, 2019 01:19PM)
The internet is the worst thing to ever happen to mankind.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Oct 10, 2019 01:39PM)
I'm avoiding Catalina for as long as possible. Audiobooks will no longer work with ITunes after the upgrade.

I've heard of long processing times before but it depends on the current processing power available at that moment and changes quickly once started.

I had to tell a job interviewer I didn't have WhatsApp the other day; he wanted me to use it for the interview and I don't/won't own a smartphone. I told him I had a calling card and could call him, but instead did it all via email. The people at work call me a caveman...
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 10, 2019 02:48PM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
The internet is the worst thing to ever happen to mankind. [/quote]

Yea no.

The Blank Death was pretty bad. Lots and lots of other self inflicted wounds that resulted in the death of millions. How many has the internet killed exactly?

It is a tool. Much like any other tool it is in the way that it is used by the user that makes it good or bad.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 10, 2019 06:34PM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Good move. Technology never helped anyone. [/quote]

I disagree. Technology helps us to argue over great distances with people we have never met.

Your turn.

Ron :-)
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 10, 2019 06:48PM)
I would think it is one of the best tools around today. We have instant access to anything we want to know.

I often wonder who puts all the information on here. Just think about it, Google will never say I donít know.:)

Tom
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Oct 10, 2019 08:16PM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Good move. Technology never helped anyone.[/quote]
I disagree. Technology helps us to argue over great distances with people we have never met.[/quote]
You're wrong.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 10, 2019 08:29PM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
The internet is the worst thing to ever happen to mankind. [/quote]

Yea no.

The Blank Death was pretty bad. Lots and lots of other self inflicted wounds that resulted in the death of millions. How many has the internet killed exactly?

It is a tool. Much like any other tool it is in the way that it is used by the user that makes it good or bad. [/quote]
Yea yes. The death of millions? Yes. Did you think I hadn't considered that before I made my statement?
You know me a little better than that sir.
You can disagree with me of course and I respect your opinion- but don't think I haven't considered history (my fave subject remember?)
How many has the internet killed? So far you mean? Oh jeez I couldn't muster a guess. Maybe 600 000? A mil? I don't know. But it will be no contest eventually. The plague is over. The two world wars are over. The holocaust is over. The internet ain't goin nowhere.
I bet dozens died as a result of the internet in the time it takes me to hit submit.
Not to mention theft, torture, suicide, abuse, larceny, laundering, luring, fraud, trafficking etc. All at the click of a mouse.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 10, 2019 09:09PM)
Worst? How is the internet bad?

How is it those hypothetical dozens you mentioned are victims?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 10, 2019 09:21PM)
"How is it those hypothetical dozens you mentioned are victims?"

Ummm... because they lost their lives as a direct result of instant global communication via luring, blackmail, extortion, trafficking, pedophilia, mass murder, genocide?
I sincerely hope your question is based on ignorance.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 10, 2019 09:40PM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
... because they lost their lives as a direct result of [snip] blackmail, extortion, trafficking, pedophilia, mass murder, genocide?
[/quote]False cause. :( All of which were happening before the internet was invented. None of which would stop if only the internet stopped.

One could also say your hypotheticals fell prey to those who would not harm them if they were online.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 10, 2019 09:46PM)
No idea what you are saying. And nothing here is hypothetical. Crime via internet is real and rampant on a scale never before experienced. Are you seriously this naive?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 10, 2019 10:09PM)
Those things ( "blackmail, extortion, trafficking, pedophilia, mass murder, genocide" ) are not themselves related to the internet.

Anonymous sources can type, post pictures ... and [i]for now[/i] such behavior is not routinely backtracked to people who get held liable for their harmful actions. That, sir or mam, is a social problem we've also had long before the internet. One could counter that most of the activities you mentioned would not be possible without that [i]disconnect from[/i] the internet into places where nobody tells or sees in time to prevent harm or death. Notice the executioner wears a mask, the firing squad gets bullets and blanks, call it a fig leaf if you want to but it's not about the internet.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 10, 2019 10:25PM)
All those words existed for centuries prior to the internet. The internet did not suddenly bring them about. To claim the internet is responsible for them is to ignore history to put forth your own opinion. Which is another thing that happens on the internet.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Oct 11, 2019 12:53AM)
More power to you!!!!! I'm ready to face my internet addiction demons myself.. :dancing: :dancing:
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Oct 11, 2019 03:57AM)
Greg, sorry to hear of your demise.
The funny thing is, though:
95% of the information, 'you lost',
you received FROM the Internet(!).
More than half of,...you NEVER would have received, without.

gallagher

p.s.: I actually only wrote to say:
Jonathan(!), you thru me for a loop(!), 🤔
with your new 'foto'!
I had to look THREE times!
Great!

"If things don't change,
...they tend to remain the same." 🙃
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 11, 2019 06:28AM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
... because they lost their lives as a direct result of [snip] blackmail, extortion, trafficking, pedophilia, mass murder, genocide?
[/quote]False cause. :( All of which were happening before the internet was invented. None of which would stop if only the internet stopped.

One could also say your hypotheticals fell prey to those who would not harm them if they were online. [/quote]
1. Nobody said these things didn't happen before the internet.

2. Nobody said these things wouldnt continue without internet.

3. Nobody said the internet was the cause of anything.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 11, 2019 06:30AM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
All those words existed for centuries prior to the internet. The internet did not suddenly bring them about. To claim the internet is responsible for them is to ignore history to put forth your own opinion. Which is another thing that happens on the internet. [/quote]
1. Nobody said these things didn't exist before the internet.
2. Nobody said the internet caused them.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 11, 2019 06:32AM)
Jon asked how people were victims. I laid out a few examples.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 11, 2019 09:03AM)
No. You laid out an opinion that you didn't come close to backing up. You mentioned a whole bunch of things that the internet did not cause.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Oct 11, 2019 12:10PM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
All those words existed for centuries prior to the internet. The internet did not suddenly bring them about. To claim the internet is responsible for them is to ignore history to put forth your own opinion. Which is another thing that happens on the internet. [/quote]


It's like blaming the roads for all the traffic deaths....
Message: Posted by: slowkneenuh (Oct 11, 2019 12:29PM)
In my mind, there is no doubt that the use of the internet has caused or played a part in terrible things happening. However, like all things in life that we encounter over time, both the good and the bad aspects have to be weighed to determine its value.

To me, at least so far, the rapid dissemination of knowledge on a global scale contributing to the betterment of our quality of life has outweighed the negatives.

What it has done for the field of medicine and the medical community alone is astounding.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 11, 2019 12:51PM)
[quote]On Oct 11, 2019, slowkneenuh wrote:
In my mind, there is no doubt that the use of the internet has caused or played a part in terrible things happening. However, like all things in life that we encounter over time, both the good and the bad aspects have to be weighed to determine its value.

To me, at least so far, the rapid dissemination of knowledge on a global scale contributing to the betterment of our quality of life has outweighed the negatives.

What it has done for the field of medicine and the medical community alone is astounding. [/quote]

Good point slow. Iím not sure that the positives outweigh the negatives, but the negatives are so negative that it makes me feel the world was a better place before it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 11, 2019 01:26PM)
Yea I think this is the Luddite platform.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 11, 2019 02:14PM)
I'm pretty sure internet luring is much more prevalent than it was before the internet.
Hacking databases for ID theft too.
Harrassment etc.
Trafficking.
Bomb threats.
Lots of others than are too horrific to mention.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 11, 2019 02:49PM)
All of which have happened prior to and would continue without the internet. The more you post to justify your position the more you seem to point out how untenable it really is.

But since irony was probably the first casualty of the Internet you may never see it.

And sure Internet luring is new, but in no way can outweigh the good. Also kidnapping and luring did not spring into existence with the internet. One could have made the same accusation about the telephone or Rock and Roll. Oh wait. Old people at the time DID make those arguments!

I get it. You have your "truth " and no amount of facts and evidence will dissuade you from it. I do want to point out that it is morally reprehensible for you to use the very thing you find so destructive.

As for bomb threats and harassment come on. Kids were bullied from the beginning. You can not believe bomb threats are an Internet creation. You simply can not.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 11, 2019 03:24PM)
I never said the internet created bomb threats.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 11, 2019 03:26PM)
I use the internet even though I think it is bad.
I use alcohol too. Even smoked in the old days even though I knew it caused cancer.
I am morally reprehensible.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 11, 2019 03:30PM)
Danny, do you have facts and evidence to prove the world is a better place with the internet?
I don't need to hear any because I respect your opinion.
In my opinion, the world would be a better place without it.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Oct 11, 2019 03:39PM)
Step 1: Narrowly focus on a small part of someone else's post.

Step 2: Argue about semantics.

Step 4: State that you are not arguing about semantics.

Step 5: Narrowly focus on a small part of someone else's post that contradicts your own.

Step 6: Ask them to prove the opposite is true; though never stated by original poster.

Step 7: Go to Step 2.
Message: Posted by: slowkneenuh (Oct 11, 2019 05:32PM)
What happened to Step 3?
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Oct 11, 2019 06:06PM)
[quote]On Oct 11, 2019, slowkneenuh wrote:
What happened to Step 3? [/quote]


Step 3: If you can't make a logical argument against someone's post, criticize the formatting instead.

;)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 11, 2019 07:45PM)
HOLO9 C /CV N..N,M NHYH NNMÖ.>Ió8Z B said my granddaughter.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 11, 2019 09:12PM)
That's easy for you to say...
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 11, 2019 09:43PM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
The internet is the worst thing to ever happen to mankind. [/quote]How is it worse than other things, such as fire, the lever, or gunpowder?
Message: Posted by: karnak (Oct 11, 2019 10:12PM)
Or electricity? Or the wheel?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 11, 2019 10:29PM)
[quote]On Oct 11, 2019, karnak wrote:
Or electricity? Or the wheel? [/quote]

Exactly. How many have died because of these inventions? Has to be far more than have died because of the internet.

The position is untenable and I doubt he will ever admit it.
Message: Posted by: top_illusionist (Oct 11, 2019 10:37PM)
Maybe someone put some spyware or some virus on his computer which caused it to screw up the settings.
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Oct 12, 2019 06:03AM)
You just gotta like Jonathan's new profile foto(!). 😊
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 12, 2019 06:22AM)
Magicfish, if you had the power to rid the world of either the internet or guns, which would you choose?

Ron
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 12, 2019 06:27AM)
[quote]On Oct 11, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Oct 11, 2019, karnak wrote:
Or electricity? Or the wheel? [/quote]

Exactly. How many have died because of these inventions? Has to be far more than have died because of the internet.

The position is untenable and I doubt he will ever admit it. [/quote]
What is my position?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 12, 2019 06:28AM)
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, R.S. wrote:
Magicfish, if you had the power to rid the world of either the internet or guns, which would you choose?

Ron [/quote]
Internet
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 12, 2019 06:31AM)
[quote]On Oct 11, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
The internet is the worst thing to ever happen to mankind. [/quote]How is it worse than other things, such as fire, the lever, or gunpowder? [/quote]
Whoa whoa whoa, you don't like the lever?
You think the negatives of the lever outweigh the positives? Wow cant wait to hear Danny tear you a new one for this opinion. Make sure you have hard, irrefutable evidence or your toast buddy.
; )
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 12, 2019 06:38AM)
He never said that. He only asked you how the internet is worse. Nice try though.

Yes God forbid anyone ask you for evidence of claims made. What was I thinking? No we should just hold random positions of things with no evidence. Good plan.

Your position has been CLEARLY stated, you just can't admit how ridiculous it is because of your ego. You refuse to admit you may have overstated the case and it is frankly hilarious to watch you keep trying to wiggle out of it.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 12, 2019 08:03AM)
Overstate? No.
I will state it again.
In my opinion the world was a better place before the internet.
Do I have evidence?
If I had the time or inclination or the ego I might try to argue specific cases and try to convince you of something, but I don't, so I wont.
I respect your opinion without any evidence from you.
Petty you cant respect mine.
Ego indeed. The last word is yours.
Have a good day sir.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 12, 2019 08:04AM)
I'd still like to discuss the lever Jon. Maybe another thread.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 12, 2019 08:30AM)
Then get off the internet! You can make YOUR world a better place. That is what Greg has done.

Naw never going to happen is it?
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 12, 2019 10:31AM)
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, R.S. wrote:
Magicfish, if you had the power to rid the world of either the internet or guns, which would you choose?

Ron [/quote]
Internet [/quote]

Interesting, thanks.

So just so I understand, are you of the opinion that a PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun?

Ron
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 12, 2019 10:45AM)
100%
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 12, 2019 11:24AM)
Certainly you are entitled to any opinion you like. Is there any chance you can back it up with any... oh I don't know facts or something other than just how you feel?

I do not want to denigrate your opinion. Your life experience has brought you to it and it is valid. You are not a fool or incompetent so your experience has brought you to this conclusion. I am just trying to understand what it is that brought you to that conclusion. It seems as if there may be a logical flaw or two at work.

If not then ok. No worries. Just trying to understand is all.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Oct 12, 2019 12:18PM)
Easy to keep track once you know the steps...
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 12, 2019 01:47PM)
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, magicfish wrote:
100% [/quote]

So is it fair to say that you be more comfortable leaving your 10 year child unattended for a few hours in a house with a loaded gun in full view on the table than you would with a PC logged in and connected to the internet?

Ron
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 12, 2019 01:58PM)
100 years ago most folks had no electric bills to pay and not a one of those were ever killed from an electric shock. Today in the United States alone,
there are approximately 400 deaths and 30,000 shock incidents per year caused by electricity. But even with the bad that came with it, electricity has
changed how we live for the better. I sort of see the internet the same way. Certainly there are some bad that comes with it, but doesnít the good
outweigh the bad? I think so.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 12, 2019 02:00PM)
Nobody was ever hit by lightning?

As I said before old people have made this argument for a very long time. Heck the industrial revolution, automobiles, airplanes, the combine, or even as Jonathan mentioned the lever could be argued in the EXACT same way. As a matter of fact many did. (Maybe not about the lever.)

But to somehow claim that the dissemination of information is a bad thing is to miss the point of the internet.

And yes a Tom the first sentence is a joke.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 12, 2019 04:00PM)
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, magicfish wrote:
100% [/quote]

So is it fair to say that you be more comfortable leaving your 10 year child unattended for a few hours in a house with a loaded gun in full view on the table than you would with a PC logged in and connected to the internet?


Ron [/quote]
No. It is not fair to say that. That is a huge jump from your previous question.
Good attempt though.
Jeez what a horrible thing to propose.
This is getting strange.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 12, 2019 05:44PM)
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, magicfish wrote:
...
In my opinion the world was a better place before the internet.
... [/quote]is not the same as: [quote]On Oct 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
The internet is the worst thing to ever happen to mankind. [/quote]
What makes the world worse now as compared to other inventions?

Levers and leverage may be a different discussion. Up to you.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 12, 2019 05:56PM)
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, magicfish wrote:
...
In my opinion the world was a better place before the internet.
... [/quote]is not the same as: [quote]On Oct 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
The internet is the worst thing to ever happen to mankind. [/quote]
What makes the world worse now as compared to other inventions?

Levers and leverage may be a different discussion. Up to you. [/quote]

The first is an opinion and can be evidence free. The second sort of demands proof. Which is why I am guessing he backed off so far on the claim. To claim it is te worst thing in the history of mankind from someone who claims to like history so much is a big claim. It should be backed up at least some.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 13, 2019 07:59AM)
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, magicfish wrote:
100% [/quote]

So is it fair to say that you be more comfortable leaving your 10 year child unattended for a few hours in a house with a loaded gun in full view on the table than you would with a PC logged in and connected to the internet?


Ron [/quote]
No. It is not fair to say that. That is a huge jump from your previous question.
Good attempt though.
Jeez what a horrible thing to propose.
This is getting strange. [/quote]

I didn't "propose" anything. I asked a question in an attempt to assess your comfort level under different circumstances. It's not like I want you to go out and actually recreate the hypothetical.

Anyway, what did you think was "horrible" about what I said? Was it the internet part or the gun part? And I do agree - it is getting strange. Because I don't think my hypothetical is such a "huge jump" given your previous statements:

1) The internet is "the worst thing to ever happen to mankind."
2) You would rather rid the world of the internet than guns.
3) A PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun (which you emphatically stated as "100%").

Given that set of views, one would think you would have more distress leaving your child unattended in a room with a PC and the internet than you would with a gun. So which is it - would you rather leave your child with the internet or with a gun? Just trying to understand your priorities.

Ron
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 13, 2019 09:54AM)
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, magicfish wrote:
...
In my opinion the world was a better place before the internet.
... [/quote]is not the same as: [quote]On Oct 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
The internet is the worst thing to ever happen to mankind. [/quote]
What makes the world worse now as compared to other inventions?

Levers and leverage may be a different discussion. Up to you. [/quote]

They are the same in that, in my opinion, they are both true.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 13, 2019 02:03PM)
[quote]On Oct 13, 2019, magicfish wrote:
They are the same in that, in my opinion, they are both true. [/quote]How did you come to your opinion about the internet being worst?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 13, 2019 10:58PM)
The internet gives him his opinions - not to mention topics.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 13, 2019 11:15PM)
[quote]On Oct 13, 2019, tommy wrote:
The internet gives him his opinions - not to mention topics. [/quote]
Speak for yourself lil man.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Oct 14, 2019 01:22AM)
The worst-thing is not that which kills the most humans. The Internet is a contender.
Message: Posted by: farmerkarl (Oct 14, 2019 01:28AM)
Hi Greg ,

If you are still here. Sit tight it's just Mercury going retrograde. It'll correct itself soon (couple 3 weeks).

Good luck.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 14, 2019 04:57AM)
[quote]On Oct 13, 2019, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 12, 2019, magicfish wrote:
100% [/quote]

So is it fair to say that you be more comfortable leaving your 10 year child unattended for a few hours in a house with a loaded gun in full view on the table than you would with a PC logged in and connected to the internet?


Ron [/quote]
No. It is not fair to say that. That is a huge jump from your previous question.
Good attempt though.
Jeez what a horrible thing to propose.
This is getting strange. [/quote]

I didn't "propose" anything. I asked a question in an attempt to assess your comfort level under different circumstances. It's not like I want you to go out and actually recreate the hypothetical.

Anyway, what did you think was "horrible" about what I said? Was it the internet part or the gun part? And I do agree - it is getting strange. Because I don't think my hypothetical is such a "huge jump" given your previous statements:

1) The internet is "the worst thing to ever happen to mankind."
2) You would rather rid the world of the internet than guns.
3) A PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun (which you emphatically stated as "100%").

Given that set of views, one would think you would have more distress leaving your child unattended in a room with a PC and the internet than you would with a gun. So which is it - would you rather leave your child with the internet or with a gun? Just trying to understand your priorities.

Ron [/quote]

Still waiting for a response.

Ron
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 14, 2019 09:09AM)
Just prepping Thanksgiving dinner.
I liked your analogy with either ridding the world of the internet or ridding the world of guns. Both are tools, both can be used for good or evil. I chose the internet. Some may choose guns. But then you moved in a different direction.
You asked if I'd rather leave a child alone with an internet connected device or a loaded firearm. My response to that ridiculous question would not be parallel nor indicative in any way of support nor abandonment of my position.
I believe the internet has a worse effect on mankind than TNT. Would I rather give a child a smartphone or a stick of dynamite with a lighter? Stop being silly Ron. I know what you're doing.
I wont partake in it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 14, 2019 09:43AM)
Ok you keep making the claim. We understand the position. What I am sincerely asking is what brought you to this conclusion? I do not even really mean facts. I am just asking for the things that have influenced you to draw this conclusion. Even if it is just feelings it is ok.

There is nothing wrong with holding an opinion. You are right about it if it is what you believe. No problem. I doubt it can be really quantifiable because it is all subjective. Thus you're not wrong.

I am more interested in the reasoning that trying to claim one side is right and another is wrong. I may point out what I think is a counter point, I may put forth a different viewpoint, but I really hope you will at least put forth your reasoning.

Thank you.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 14, 2019 09:44AM)
Cyberbullying includes sending hateful messages or even death threats to children, spreading lies about them online, making nasty comments on their social networking profiles, or creating a website to bash their looks or reputation. Given that, why don't you keep your PC in a gun safe?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 14, 2019 09:46AM)
When I was a kid Cyber bullying was when Skynet sent a robot back in time to kill you so your son can't lead the revolution.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 14, 2019 12:07PM)
Kids are scarier than the internet.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 14, 2019 12:10PM)
[quote]On Oct 14, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ok you keep making the claim. We understand the position. What I am sincerely asking is what brought you to this conclusion? I do not even really mean facts. I am just asking for the things that have influenced you to draw this conclusion. Even if it is just feelings it is ok.

There is nothing wrong with holding an opinion. You are right about it if it is what you believe. No problem. I doubt it can be really quantifiable because it is all subjective. Thus you're not wrong.

I am more interested in the reasoning that trying to claim one side is right and another is wrong. I may point out what I think is a counter point, I may put forth a different viewpoint, but I really hope you will at least put forth your reasoning.

Thank you. [/quote]
Fair post Danny, thanks. And I agree it is probably not quantifiable and it is subjective. Maybe it would be easier to deal with specifics- at least superficially so we can cover more of them .
In light of Tommy's post, we could start with bullying if you want. It has always been around and has always had varying degrees of consequences up to and including murder or suicide I'm sure.
I'll go first and state that I believe the difference now is that the student has no relief when the bell rings. Now the student comes home and the bullying continues- all night. And it can be particularly cruel with the widespread instant sharing of a clandestine video or pictures of an embarrassing scene. This can increase the psychological trauma.
Being shut in a locker, or beaten, teased or forced to eat flowers is very bad. Live uploading and instant mass sharing of it can only make it worse in my opinion.
Ok? Interested to hear any counterpoints.
Then maybe we could do shootings or murder or fraud or whatever.
Thanks for the civil conversation.
Happy Thanksgiving!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 14, 2019 01:22PM)
Certainly it can make it much worse. I never would deny this. I think though that the claim it is the worst thing ever is quite strong. But when you stack it up against what can and is done on the other side it is close to no contest.

Not just the internet in a vacuum but all that comes with it that may not exist without it must be considered.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 14, 2019 01:35PM)
The student is not obliged to receive email or messages from others.

Video evidence of assault, abuse, or civil rights violation is not magically protected by a right to be forgotten.

Who tells students to turn off their phone when in school?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 14, 2019 01:40PM)
I see the point though. It is so much a part of who some kids are. It is unfortunately not as simple as turn it off. Many experience life through this 2 inch window.

I do not agree that it is the worst thing ever, but I do see the point being made.

Telling kids to ignore name calling is as simple and as difficult as that. Heck adults STILL have trouble with it.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 14, 2019 06:24PM)
Obviously bullies and the like can attack somebody through the internet without contacting them The victim might well be the last one to hear that somebody has been spreading malicious gossip about them. A magician, for example, might have his reputation and business ruined by an enemy speeding lies about him and so on and on the net it is widespread. The net is a big gossip column. The student is not obliged to receive emails or messages from others but the student can be physically attacked if somebody makes up a story about her or him on the net. Love can be a dangerous thing.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 14, 2019 06:39PM)
Tommy that is true. Internet rumor spreading is indeed not physical. It can end in suicide which is physical.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 14, 2019 07:40PM)
[quote]On Oct 14, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Just prepping Thanksgiving dinner.
I liked your analogy with either ridding the world of the internet or ridding the world of guns. Both are tools, both can be used for good or evil. I chose the internet. Some may choose guns. But then you moved in a different direction.
You asked if I'd rather leave a child alone with an internet connected device or a loaded firearm. My response to that ridiculous question would not be parallel nor indicative in any way of support nor abandonment of my position.
I believe the internet has a worse effect on mankind than TNT. Would I rather give a child a smartphone or a stick of dynamite with a lighter? Stop being silly Ron. I know what you're doing.
I wont partake in it. [/quote]

I don't think I'm the one being "silly."

If you genuinely believe that...

1) The internet is "the worst thing to ever happen to mankind."
2) You would rather rid the world of the internet than guns.
[b]3) A PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun (which you emphatically stated as "100%").[/b]

... then, if you're being consistent, you would feel more comfortable leaving your child alone with a gun than with the internet. It's that simple. But if you would NOT be more comfortable leaving your child with the gun, then perhaps it's time to reevaluate your stance on this issue.

Food for thought. And no need to respond.

Take care.

Ron
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 14, 2019 08:11PM)
The internet is about getting messages from one place to another. That could be a huge benefit. Resources:
https://www.cybersmile.org/advice-help/category/who-to-call

Attacks are less likely if the attacker is facing a live webcam. Video evidence of assault, abuse, or civil rights violation is not magically protected by a right to be forgotten.

* How you express disagreement is a choice.
[quote]Speech is aggression
Every utterance has a winner and a loser
Curiosity is feigned
Lying is performative
Stupidity is power[/quote]- Stephenson, 2019 from "Fall"
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 14, 2019 08:23PM)
On the internet today - choice of perspective:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/14/trump-kingsman-fake-video-response-mccain
https://heavy.com/news/2019/10/violent-trump-parody-vs-original-kingsman-video/

*webcam, click, "some Pow'r the giftie gie us" ;)
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 15, 2019 09:39AM)
[quote]On Oct 14, 2019, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 14, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Just prepping Thanksgiving dinner.
I liked your analogy with either ridding the world of the internet or ridding the world of guns. Both are tools, both can be used for good or evil. I chose the internet. Some may choose guns. But then you moved in a different direction.
You asked if I'd rather leave a child alone with an internet connected device or a loaded firearm. My response to that ridiculous question would not be parallel nor indicative in any way of support nor abandonment of my position.
I believe the internet has a worse effect on mankind than TNT. Would I rather give a child a smartphone or a stick of dynamite with a lighter? Stop being silly Ron. I know what you're doing.
I wont partake in it. [/quote]

I don't think I'm the one being "silly."

If you genuinely believe that...

1) The internet is "the worst thing to ever happen to mankind."
2) You would rather rid the world of the internet than guns.
[b]3) A PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun (which you emphatically stated as "100%").[/b]

... then, if you're being consistent, you would feel more comfortable leaving your child alone with a gun than with the internet. It's that simple. But if you would NOT be more comfortable leaving your child with the gun, then perhaps it's time to reevaluate your stance on this issue.

Food for thought. And no need to respond.

Take care.

Ron [/quote]
So, if I would rather my child be in the house with a mouse in his hand connected to a PC than have him holding a stick of TNT in one hand and a zippo in the other it means I believe dynamite is worse for society than the internet?
Are you kidding?
A child running around a house with a loaded gun, TNT, scissors, a knife, sulphuric acid, uranium, molten lava, has absolutely nothing to do with my position.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 15, 2019 10:03AM)
TNT has been pretty rough for society.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Oct 15, 2019 10:47AM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:
So, if I would rather my child be in the house with a mouse in his hand connected to a PC than have him holding a stick of TNT in one hand and a zippo in the other it means I believe dynamite is worse for society than the internet?[/quote]
Not to put too fine a point on it, but TNT and dynamite are quite different from each other, TNT doesn't come in sticks, and it is not detonated by a flame or fuse.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 15, 2019 11:05AM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:
So, if I would rather my child be in the house with a mouse in his hand connected to a PC than have him holding a stick of TNT in one hand and a zippo in the other it means I believe dynamite is worse for society than the internet?[/quote]
Not to put too fine a point on it, but TNT and dynamite are quite different from each other, TNT doesn't come in sticks, and it is not detonated by a flame or fuse. [/quote]
Tell that to Wile E Coyote
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Oct 15, 2019 11:38AM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:
So, if I would rather my child be in the house with a mouse in his hand connected to a PC than have him holding a stick of TNT in one hand and a zippo in the other it means I believe dynamite is worse for society than the internet?[/quote]
Not to put too fine a point on it, but TNT and dynamite are quite different from each other, TNT doesn't come in sticks, and it is not detonated by a flame or fuse. [/quote]
Tell that to Wile E Coyote [/quote]

Or AC/DC
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 15, 2019 11:57AM)
I might offer that cartoons and song lyrics are perhaps not the best sources of fact.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 15, 2019 12:00PM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:
So, if I would rather my child be in the house with a mouse in his hand connected to a PC than have him holding a stick of TNT in one hand and a zippo in the other it means I believe dynamite is worse for society than the internet?[/quote]
Not to put too fine a point on it, but TNT and dynamite are quite different from each other, TNT doesn't come in sticks, and it is not detonated by a flame or fuse. [/quote]

In the real world TNT is actually quite difficult to detonate! I am too lazy to look it up but didn't it take about 25 years after the discovery to even figure out that it could be detonated?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 15, 2019 12:46PM)
On TV its sometimes called nitroglycerin, looks like water in a bottle, but if dropped it kills everybody.:)


Tom
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Oct 15, 2019 02:04PM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:
So, if I would rather my child be in the house with a mouse in his hand connected to a PC than have him holding a stick of TNT in one hand and a zippo in the other it means I believe dynamite is worse for society than the internet?[/quote]
Not to put too fine a point on it, but TNT and dynamite are quite different from each other, TNT doesn't come in sticks, and it is not detonated by a flame or fuse.[/quote]
In the real world TNT is actually quite difficult to detonate! I am too lazy to look it up but didn't it take about 25 years after the discovery to even figure out that it could be detonated?[/quote]
I don't know the timing, but it is quite difficult to detonate. It needs a blasting cap (i.e., a small explosion from a more sensitive explosive).

It can be melted, poured, and cast, which, along with its general insensitivity, makes it an excellent explosive for munitions.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 15, 2019 02:09PM)
Yellow dye? !! Guardrails and safety nets. Please.

Entertainment: China builds UFO -> https://www.foxnews.com/tech/china-builds-400-mph-flying-saucer-attack-helicopter-with-stealth-coating-and-missile-system

It gets stranger when fiction leads to fact. https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/10/01/1910242116 today and from long ago:
[quote]Another professor showed me a large paper of instructions for discovering plots and conspiracies against the government. He advised great statesmen to examine into the diet of all suspected persons; their times of eating; upon which side they lay in bed; with which hand they wipe their posteriors; take a strict view of their *,...[/quote]https://www.gutenberg.org/files/829/829-h/829-h.htm
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Oct 15, 2019 02:27PM)
I posit that these three statements have completely different meanings and shouldn't be confused:

The internet is the worst thing to ever happen to mankind.
The internet is the most dangerous thing to ever happen to mankind.
The internet is the deadliest thing to ever happen to mankind.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 15, 2019 02:38PM)
Agreed.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 15, 2019 02:44PM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
I posit that these three statements have completely different meanings and shouldn't be confused:

The internet is the worst thing to ever happen to mankind.
The internet is the most dangerous thing to ever happen to mankind.
The internet is the deadliest thing to ever happen to mankind. [/quote]Internet ungood?

Watch what you say to your cable box, it might say something to your refrigerator. https://www.samsung.com/us/explore/family-hub-refrigerator/overview/
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 15, 2019 06:03PM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Oct 14, 2019, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 14, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Just prepping Thanksgiving dinner.
I liked your analogy with either ridding the world of the internet or ridding the world of guns. Both are tools, both can be used for good or evil. I chose the internet. Some may choose guns. But then you moved in a different direction.
You asked if I'd rather leave a child alone with an internet connected device or a loaded firearm. My response to that ridiculous question would not be parallel nor indicative in any way of support nor abandonment of my position.
I believe the internet has a worse effect on mankind than TNT. Would I rather give a child a smartphone or a stick of dynamite with a lighter? Stop being silly Ron. I know what you're doing.
I wont partake in it. [/quote]

I don't think I'm the one being "silly."

If you genuinely believe that...

1) The internet is "the worst thing to ever happen to mankind."
2) You would rather rid the world of the internet than guns.
[b]3) A PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun (which you emphatically stated as "100%").[/b]

... then, if you're being consistent, you would feel more comfortable leaving your child alone with a gun than with the internet. It's that simple. But if you would NOT be more comfortable leaving your child with the gun, then perhaps it's time to reevaluate your stance on this issue.

Food for thought. And no need to respond.

Take care.

Ron [/quote]
So, if I would rather my child be in the house with a mouse in his hand connected to a PC than have him holding a stick of TNT in one hand and a zippo in the other it means I believe dynamite is worse for society than the internet?
Are you kidding?
A child running around a house with a loaded gun, TNT, scissors, a knife, sulphuric acid, uranium, molten lava, has absolutely nothing to do with my position. [/quote]

First, nobody mentioned "a stick of TNT in one hand and a zippo n the other" except you. Nor did anybody mention scissors, a knife, sulphuric acid, uranium, or molten lava. Let's stick to what you said. Which is:

1) The internet is "the worst thing to ever happen to mankind."
2) You would rather rid the world of the internet than guns.
[b]3) A PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun (which you emphatically stated as "100%").[/b]

Seems pretty cut and dry. But feel free to rewrite/clarify those statements if they were hastily written. Or not.

Ron
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 15, 2019 07:54PM)
Correct. It is cut and dry. NOBODY mentioned a child with a loaded gun, except you.

I will reiterate my response to your question since you seem to be having trouble.

Question: "So just so I understand, are you of the opinion that a PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun?"

Answer:"100%"

See Ron? Or do you still want to pretend I said anything about children handling weapons unattended.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 15, 2019 09:00PM)
[quote]On Oct 10, 2019, magicfish wrote:
The internet is the worst thing to ever happen to mankind. [/quote]What reasoning and evidence informs this opinion?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 15, 2019 09:08PM)
Where should we begin Jon?
Should we take something most agree is really bad for mankind and compare?
Uranium enrichment? Guns?
The Holocaust? The Plague? Specialization? The Ice Age? The lever? ;)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 15, 2019 09:21PM)
That's exactly what I'm asking. Why do you feel it's bad? And how do you get to "worst"?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 15, 2019 09:40PM)
As I stated earlier, "...it is probably not quantifiable and it is subjective. Maybe it would be easier to deal with specifics- at least superficially so we can cover more of them ."
So, I feel it is bad because of any and all bad that it either causes, promotes, popularizes, propagates,or facilitates.
I feel it is the worst because I feel the negative impacts of the internet outweigh the negative impacts of anything that has come before it.
We touched on bullying and some great points were made all round. Do you suggest another sub topic?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 15, 2019 10:33PM)
Your opinion is your own.
Bullies don't do so well against police and social services: https://www.stopbullying.gov/cyberbullying/how-to-report/index.html
People tend to be less violent when they know they are on a live camera.

And when something medical happens - help is a click away: https://www.mdlive.com/
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 15, 2019 10:34PM)
I can see where one may think of the internet as more dangerous than a loaded firearm. I disagree, but I can see the point.

BUT much like a firearm the internet is an inanimate object. It does not need to be engaged any more than a firearm needs to be handled.

I don't see that it has more of a negative impact than anything that came before it. Certainly the invention of gunpowder has caused orders of magnitude more death and destruction than the internet can ever hope to compare to.

I do respect the point of view, and I do thank you for coming back to share it a little bit more clearly. I disagree completely but it certainly is a perspective to keep in mind.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 16, 2019 05:26AM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Correct. It is cut and dry. NOBODY mentioned a child with a loaded gun, except you.

I will reiterate my response to your question since you seem to be having trouble.

Question: "So just so I understand, are you of the opinion that a PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun?"

Answer:"100%"

See Ron? Or do you still want to pretend I said anything about children handling weapons unattended. [/quote]


I never said nor implied that YOU brought up the hypothetical with the child - I DID. [I]Based on the implications of your 3 statements[/I]. As I said, I was just trying to see which hypothetical situation would cause you more discomfort, [I]given your statements[/I]. That's all. When someone says emphatically that a PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun (in concert with your other statements), it's not unreasonable for one to wonder how that person would react to the hypothetical that I posed. And you still haven't answered that very simple question. Instead you keep strawmanning my hypothetical and now falsely accusing me of attributing my own hypothetical to you.

But hey, no need to persist if the hypothetical makes you uncomfortable.


Ron
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 16, 2019 07:18AM)
Some people imagine viewing porn, some imagine a move benevolent watchful eye. You get to choose what you look at.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 16, 2019 07:21AM)
Of course it makes me uncomfortable.
I hope it makes anyone uncomfortable. A child with a loaded gun unattended? How do you not see how preposterous this is?
Your first comparison was simply a loaded gun. It could be in my basement for sixty years while the internet whirs away in the background. Who knows what negative impacts the internet could have on society in that 60 years. But the loaded gun is safe and sound in my home.
But you didn't like that. So you put it in the hands of a child. Unattended.
You did what you always do.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 16, 2019 08:03AM)
I agree that the internet is bad in many, many ways, especially for children and some adults. Itís easy to be removed from the real world on the internet.

But there are also many good things about the internet. We have never had so much instant information at our fingertips like we do today.

I personally can see more good in it than bad, but maybe thatís because I use it that way.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 16, 2019 08:21AM)
@magicfish: https://rws511.pbworks.com/w/file/fetch/68739355/Postman_thamus.pdf

The question is older than Apollo vs Dionysus. In todays language a choice between truth of experience and hive truth. The hive has done very well for much longer than our species has been around. Choose wisely. There's a modern (though clumsy) fable in David Egger's [i]book[/i] "The Circle". A less clumsy fable may be found in Bruce Sterling's story "The Swarm".

So, can we discuss levers? Archimedes posts on /b/

*Pascal's counteroffer: There could be infinitely many large, powerful and communicative creatures who claim a relative divinity. So rather than choose the wrong one and in so doing offend the right one...
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 16, 2019 10:59AM)
[quote]On Oct 15, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
I can see where one may think of the internet as more dangerous than a loaded firearm. I disagree, but I can see the point.

BUT much like a firearm the internet is an inanimate object. It does not need to be engaged any more than a firearm needs to be handled.

I don't see that it has more of a negative impact than anything that came before it. Certainly the invention of gunpowder has caused orders of magnitude more death and destruction than the internet can ever hope to compare to.

I do respect the point of view, and I do thank you for coming back to share it a little bit more clearly. I disagree completely but it certainly is a perspective to keep in mind. [/quote]
And as I said Danny, I liked Ron's original analogy about the guns. As I said, both are tools that can be used for good or bad. Which is worse? Some may say the gun, some may say the internet. Fair.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 16, 2019 05:50PM)
[quote]On Oct 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Of course it makes me uncomfortable.
I hope it makes anyone uncomfortable. A child with a loaded gun unattended? How do you not see how preposterous this is?[/quote]

What's "preposterous" about that hypothetical, given your stated positions? And besides, what does the degree of "preposterousness" of a hypothetical have to do with addressing it??


[quote]
Your first comparison was simply a loaded gun. It could be in my basement for sixty years while the internet whirs away in the background. Who knows what negative impacts the internet could have on society in that 60 years. But the loaded gun is safe and sound in my home.
But you didn't like that. So you put it in the hands of a child. Unattended. [/quote]

Yes. Because it's MY hypothetical! I didn't know that this was the "only ask Magicfish the questions he wants to be asked" thread. You emphatically stated that a PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun. It's not unreasonable for one to then wonder whether you would be more uncomfortable leaving your 10 year unattended with a PC logged into the internet or with a loaded gun on the table. So can you answer that simple question?? Or will you do what YOU always do? And by the way, there's no right or wrong answer here. Just trying to assess your priorities in light of your stated positions. But hey, if you don't want to answer, just say so.


Ron
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 16, 2019 06:42PM)
Ok. Fair enough.
My answer is to mitigate all immediate/imminent danger to children as quickly as possible. If a child is in immediate danger, the last thing I'm pondering is whether the long bow or agriculture or the lever or technology is harmful over the long run to society.
I'm not sure how anybody could feel any different. Which is why I feel it isn't relevant to the discussion and in no way reflects on a stance pertaining to said discussion.
But hey, it's your hypothetical.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 16, 2019 08:36PM)
[quote]On Oct 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
...to mitigate all immediate/imminent danger to children as quickly as possible. ... [/quote]Then wouldn't a sensible first step be to address the "unattended" part of the hypothetical?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 16, 2019 08:57PM)
Why? Why is there an unattended child holding a lethal weapon Jon?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 16, 2019 09:05PM)
Huh? I'd start with "unattended".

Anyway - please - back to how you decided the internet was worse than school buses or some other item we live with?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 16, 2019 09:07PM)
Your cherry pick was both ineffective and uncharacteristic.
Try reading my entire post.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 16, 2019 09:17PM)
Please, what, in your opinion, makes the internet so bad for humanity you think of it as worst?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 16, 2019 09:20PM)
As I stated earlier, "...it is probably not quantifiable and it is subjective. Maybe it would be easier to deal with specifics- at least superficially so we can cover more of them ."†
So, I feel it is bad because of any and all bad that it either causes, promotes, popularizes, propagates,or facilitates.†
I feel it is the worst because I feel the negative impacts of the internet outweigh the negative impacts of anything that has come before it.†
We touched on bullying and some great points were made all round. Do you suggest another sub topic?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 16, 2019 09:26PM)
Since you won't, I will. We did bullying, how about fraud or Identity theft?
My good friend is professor of Cyber Security at a local university. I've heard him speak on the matter and it seems to me that the internet is the favourite tool for fraudsters and scam artists.
Like bullying, it has always existed, but it has expanded globally and exponentially in the internet age.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 16, 2019 09:40PM)
[quote]On Oct 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
As I stated earlier, "...I feel it is the worst because I feel the negative impacts ..."[/quote]

Oops :loss: I'm sorry. I missed that where you clarified your statement. Thank you for repeating your clarification.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 16, 2019 10:05PM)
In my opinion the internet itself is neither good nor bad. And we already have laws against incitement, libel, slander, blackmail etc. What's left is our ethos - how we treat each other. A child could wander onto a highway, into an unsupervised swimming pool or onto the internet.

So, here we are, just a click away from the latest news from the White House: https://twitter.com/hashtag/TrishRegan?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
or from a fine scan of [url=https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1228/1228-h/1228-h.htm]Charles Darwin's Origin of Species[/url], Plato and Aristotle... a great exercise in free will. What do we choose?
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 17, 2019 05:08AM)
[quote]On Oct 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Ok. Fair enough.
My answer is to mitigate all immediate/imminent danger to children as quickly as possible. If a child is in immediate danger, the last thing I'm pondering is whether the long bow or agriculture or the lever or technology is harmful over the long run to society.
I'm not sure how anybody could feel any different. Which is why I feel it isn't relevant to the discussion and in no way reflects on a stance pertaining to said discussion.
But hey, it's your hypothetical. [/quote]

OK, so I take that to mean that in my hypothetical you would consider the source of "immediate danger" to be the gun (correct me if I'm wrong). And thanks for the clarification. The short-term vs long-term distinctions weren't made clear in your statement that "a PC running the internet is more dangerous than a loaded gun." But I think I get your meaning. Thanks again.

Ron
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 17, 2019 05:33AM)
Be careful with those quotation marks. I didn't make that statement.
But yes, with 4 billion-ish people on line 24 hours a day, I would imagine that more crimes , or deaths, or suicides, or murders, thefts, grand larceny, extortion, abuse, infidelity, crooked gambling, human trafficking, illegal pornography, treason, espionage, torture, pet ransoms etc, happen per second, than any loaded gun would in its lifetime.
Just a hunch based on math.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 17, 2019 06:50AM)
^^^ not my best composition, I hope you get my meaning.
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Oct 17, 2019 06:50AM)
Back to the original Post.
Greg's computer crash had nothing to do with,...'the Internet' (!).
It was,..is,..a problem with his computer,
,.his computer's programming,..from Apple.

The internet did not cause, multiply, or add in any way to his problem.

Gallagher

p.s.: I am no longer going to drive on the Autobahns,
because my Pirelli tyres have gone flat,
after adding more air to them.
....hmmm? 🤔
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 17, 2019 06:51AM)
[quote]On Oct 16, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Since you won't, I will. We did bullying, how about fraud or Identity theft?
My good friend is professor of Cyber Security at a local university. I've heard him speak on the matter and it seems to me that the internet is the favourite tool for fraudsters and scam artists.
Like bullying, it has always existed, but it has expanded globally and exponentially in the internet age. [/quote]

Here is where your argument runs a bit aground. While yes the internet is the favorite tool for this, in most cases the wound is at least partially self inflicted.

People put so much information on Facebook it is sickening. A thief used to have to dig through garbage for MONTHS to find less than the amount of information about someone they put on their home page much less blog about. You can not blame the tool when the craftsman is an idiot.

They tell you where they live, when they are at work, give you pictures WHILE they are on vacation! All of which people used to have timers on lights so nobody knew.

So to me while things may have gotten worse or easier, it is only because of people not the internet. As such I do not think it entirely fair to put red in the ledger of the internet because people are dumb. I do not think you can ignore this factor.

Yes there are people who are victims who have done all they can to avoid the crime. Also I never blame victims. I am only saying that using it as evidence of the worst thing to happen to mankind maui be a bit overstated is all.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 17, 2019 11:08AM)
Great point Danny, and I agree with you. A long time friend of mine is a surveillance expert specializing in insurance claims.
This guy has spent 30 years hiding in stairwells, wearing disguises, following on public transport, you name it, he's done it.
And he gets great footage of able bodied people who are on claims for debilitating injuries.
Now, he works from home. Why? Because everything he needs to know about a person is right there for the taking. Their plan for the day, where they are going, who with , how they'll get there and what route they'll take. What they will eat and where. And when they will be home and where there home is.
He has all their info.
They'll even upload videos of themselves carrying a 25 lb turkey or throwing their kids in the air. He just clicks a mouse and sends the report.
So they make it easy for him like you say.
Where I disagree with you is that my argument runs aground. Without the internet, there is no facebook for all the gullible people to be scammed by the fraudsters.
Is it the gullible peoples' fault for putting all ther info up? Sure. But the internet allows for such platforms.
Fraudsters love the internet because the Marks love the internet.
The common thread?
The internet.
Before it, the crooks had to work a bit harder. More phone calls, more letters, more meetings, more travel etc.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 17, 2019 11:11AM)
I welcome more counterpoints. So far we've done bullying and fraud/I.D. theft. Like harrasment/bullying, I think it is more rampant in the internet age. Or at least greatly facilitated by mass access to personal information via the internet or the criminal activity of hacking databases to access tens of millions of peoples personal information via the internet.
Looking forward to more sub topics.
Again these are just my opinions and I'm enjoying the discussion.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Oct 17, 2019 12:23PM)
I reckon the societal and social ills of the internet can also classify it as Worst for Humanity.

Humans are losing their sense of space and direction due to GPS.
Courting and dating and human interplay are bypassed by hookups.
Trivia and common-knowledge have been outsourced to Google.

I sincerely believes the brains of digital-natives are evolving differently because the Internet is a massive crutch.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 17, 2019 01:53PM)
It wasn't too long ago some thought stupidity was caused by a lack of information. The internet has sortb of proven the exact opposite is true.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 17, 2019 07:17PM)
[quote]On Oct 17, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Be careful with those quotation marks. I didn't make that statement. [/quote]

Correct, you didn't make the statement - sorry for the mixup. I should have replaced the word "statement" with "admission". Or something like that.


[quote]

But yes, with 4 billion-ish people on line 24 hours a day, I would imagine that more crimes , or deaths, or suicides, or murders, thefts, grand larceny, extortion, abuse, infidelity, crooked gambling, human trafficking, illegal pornography, treason, espionage, torture, pet ransoms etc, happen per second, than any loaded gun would in its lifetime.
Just a hunch based on math. [/quote]

I see your point. I don't agree that the internet is a bigger bane to humanity than the gun, but I get what you're saying.

In this country alone, approximately 32,000 people die each and every year as a [I]direct[/I] result of guns. Many more are injured/incapacitated by guns. And yet many more are robbed/threatened/abused at the hands of someone toting a gun. Then there are the deaths/injuries inflicted by all the guns in all the wars. You'd have to match or exceed those figures, AND you'd have to show causation, not just mere correlation, in order to make a case that the internet is worse for humanity. Furthermore, many of the ills that you ascribed to the internet are probably aided and abetted by... guns!! Particularly suicides and murders.

And lastly, there is the upside of the internet, which I think greatly outweighs any negatives. But that's my two cents.

Thanks Magicfish.

Ron
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 17, 2019 08:28PM)
The internet only has an inside. It is not like the Matrix.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 17, 2019 08:44PM)
[quote]On Oct 17, 2019, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 17, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Be careful with those quotation marks. I didn't make that statement. [/quote]

Correct, you didn't make the statement - sorry for the mixup. I should have replaced the word "statement" with "admission". Or something like that.


[quote]

But yes, with 4 billion-ish people on line 24 hours a day, I would imagine that more crimes , or deaths, or suicides, or murders, thefts, grand larceny, extortion, abuse, infidelity, crooked gambling, human trafficking, illegal pornography, treason, espionage, torture, pet ransoms etc, happen per second, than any loaded gun would in its lifetime.
Just a hunch based on math. [/quote]

I see your point. I don't agree that the internet is a bigger bane to humanity than the gun, but I get what you're saying.

In this country alone, approximately 32,000 people die each and every year as a [I]direct[/I] result of guns. Many more are injured/incapacitated by guns. And yet many more are robbed/threatened/abused at the hands of someone toting a gun. Then there are the deaths/injuries inflicted by all the guns in all the wars. You'd have to match or exceed those figures, AND you'd have to show causation, not just mere correlation, in order to make a case that the internet is worse for humanity. Furthermore, many of the ills that you ascribed to the internet are probably aided and abetted by... guns!! Particularly suicides and murders.

And lastly, there is the upside of the internet, which I think greatly outweighs any negatives. But that's my two cents.

Thanks Magicfish.

Ron [/quote]
I don't want to debate guns, but youd have to show that all "deaths/injuries inflicted by all the guns in all the wars." Are all negative before I would have to "match numbers".
Internet has upside, guns have upside, wars have upside, disease has upside, forest fires have upside, natural disasters have upside.
Besides, I wouldnt try to match any numbers regardless. The internet is relatively new and I don't see it ending.
P.s. many of the ills that you ascribed to guns are probably aided and abetted by... the internet!! Particularly suicides and murders.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 18, 2019 05:30AM)
[quote]On Oct 17, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Oct 17, 2019, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 17, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Be careful with those quotation marks. I didn't make that statement. [/quote]

Correct, you didn't make the statement - sorry for the mixup. I should have replaced the word "statement" with "admission". Or something like that.


[quote]

But yes, with 4 billion-ish people on line 24 hours a day, I would imagine that more crimes , or deaths, or suicides, or murders, thefts, grand larceny, extortion, abuse, infidelity, crooked gambling, human trafficking, illegal pornography, treason, espionage, torture, pet ransoms etc, happen per second, than any loaded gun would in its lifetime.
Just a hunch based on math. [/quote]

I see your point. I don't agree that the internet is a bigger bane to humanity than the gun, but I get what you're saying.

In this country alone, approximately 32,000 people die each and every year as a [I]direct[/I] result of guns. Many more are injured/incapacitated by guns. And yet many more are robbed/threatened/abused at the hands of someone toting a gun. Then there are the deaths/injuries inflicted by all the guns in all the wars. You'd have to match or exceed those figures, AND you'd have to show causation, not just mere correlation, in order to make a case that the internet is worse for humanity. Furthermore, many of the ills that you ascribed to the internet are probably aided and abetted by... guns!! Particularly suicides and murders.

And lastly, there is the upside of the internet, which I think greatly outweighs any negatives. But that's my two cents.

Thanks Magicfish.

Ron [/quote]
I don't want to debate guns, but youd have to show that all "deaths/injuries inflicted by all the guns in all the wars." Are all negative before I would have to "match numbers".
Internet has upside, guns have upside, wars have upside, disease has upside, forest fires have upside, natural disasters have upside.
Besides, I wouldnt try to match any numbers regardless. The internet is relatively new and I don't see it ending.

P.s. many of the ills that you ascribed to guns are probably aided and abetted by... the internet!! Particularly suicides and murders. [/quote]

If we agree that death, pain, and suffering are generally bad things, then the gun can be directly tied to those things much more than the internet can. The best you've done is to posit that the internet can (possibly) be a contributing factor in some cases. There's not much in the way of direct causation. I'm sure there are far more coroner's reports listing the cause of death as "bullet wound" than "internet".

You'd have to squint pretty hard to see the "upside" of disease, natural disasters ("disaster" is part of the term!), wars, and forest fires. The upside of guns is debatable as well. But even if we grant whatever upside they may have, it still doesn't come close to the upside of the internet, imo.


Ron
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 18, 2019 10:20AM)
Natural disasters often have upside. Swamp fire for one. But they are natural and sort of fall into the get over it category. Firearms and the internet are self inflicted. I think they parallel better.

If you think you are going to come close to eliminating death and pain get ready for disappointment.
Message: Posted by: S2000magician (Oct 18, 2019 11:03AM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2019, R.S. wrote:
I'm sure there are far more coroner's reports listing the cause of death as "bullet wound" than "internet".[/quote]
That's pretty disingenuous, and, frankly, a lot more callous than I'd have expected from you.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 18, 2019 11:19AM)
"If we agree that death, pain, and suffering are generally bad things, then the gun can be directly tied to those things much more than the internet can. The best you've done is to posit that the internet can (possibly) be a contributing factor in some cases. There's not much in the way of direct causation. I'm sure there are far more coroner's reports listing the cause of death as "bullet wound" than "internet".†
Once again, nothing to do with causation. You are on this gun thing. And that's fine, but again it is purely subjective. You think guns are worse for humankind than the internet. You've given some relatively small numbers about deaths or injuries per year in a certain country.

"You'd have to squint pretty hard to see the "upside" of disease, natural disasters ("disaster" is part of the term!), wars, and forest fires. The upside of guns is debatable as well. But even if we grant whatever upside they may have, it still doesn't come close to the upside of the internet, imo."
Remember any and all negatives of something,anything, that is 3-4 billion strong and growing is going to have a massive impact on human life.
Nolan Ryan had the most strikeouts but doesn't he also have the most walks?
Golden Retrievers account for the most dog bites on humans.
Just sheer numbers of course.
Weak analogies but you get my point.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 18, 2019 11:43AM)
R.S. wrote: "You'd have to match or exceed those figures, AND you'd have to show causation, not just mere correlation, in order to make a case that the internet is worse for humanity."
I disagree, but you're entitled to your opinion.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 18, 2019 11:56AM)
I found this to be an interesting read

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15564886.2016.1211404
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 18, 2019 12:38PM)
Agreed. Interesting. I'm not sure that's the best source for research or statistics.
https://www.tandfonline.com/story-behind-August-2019
What made you want to research zebra?

Ever since I read ĎHow the Leopard Got His Spotsí in Kiplingís Just So Stories at bedtime when I was about four, I have wondered what zebra stripes are for. In the many years we spent living in Africa, we were struck by how much time zebras spent grazing in the blazing heat of the day and felt the stripes might be helping to control their temperature in some way.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 18, 2019 12:49PM)
Stay with us Jon. You're safe here. They cant hurt you anymore. Now sip this herbal tea and have a lie down and have lovely dreams about your special zebras.
When you wake, we can get back to the discussion. Looking forward to some input from a refreshed Jon.
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Oct 18, 2019 12:55PM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Ever since I read ĎHow the Leopard Got His Spotsí in Kiplingís Just So Stories at bedtime when I was about four, I have wondered what zebra stripes are for. In the many years we spent living in Africa, we were struck by how much time zebras spent grazing in the blazing heat of the day and felt the stripes might be helping to control their temperature in some way. [/quote]

Zebra Stripes shuffle the heard so the Cheetahs can't find the 2 of Clubs.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 18, 2019 01:37PM)
Same site, same quality of writing and research. Yes I deflected away from the article about crime and deviance facilitated by the internet. Figured the discussion about zebra stripes would be less toxic - fewer links to abuse and easier to examine for quality.

Anyway, folks would advance their causes more quickly by exploring levers, asymmetry, presumed inviolables...

Retailers complain about people looking at product at their showrooms but then buying online at better prices.

* He sees you when you're sleeping. And he knows when you're awake. He knows if you've been bad or good...
** And if you're good maybe you can have the latest from Apple: https://boingboing.net/2019/10/18/new-apple-airpods-pro-with-noi.html
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 18, 2019 01:43PM)
Zebras, levers, Christmas carols...we'd better strengthen the dose.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 18, 2019 02:01PM)
Putting the aside risk of providing insight to bad actors...

https://www.engadget.com/2019/09/11/did-ai-kill-off-spam-and-we-just-didn-t-notice
NB the original link would have included this too --> "/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALOLARilNaSyuH4bO2HU_f7oZh_mrCHgUJD1j1uP2OIQ3Ujr_W2WlOodPeQ6m7objCW4lf521EMgWJdap1PB-36Ctms_BLotegoqTBnZtVohriAKLXGjUr1DTJPbeVEjgOlRdtNscq-0Hazef3VHbA1dkhthUEnsAh57Dg-PL_JT"

https://openai.com/blog/better-language-models/

* anticognate follows: https://brucesterling.tumblr.com/post/188408997563/commercially-available-science-fiction-novels
https://booksby.ai/
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 18, 2019 02:14PM)
This was fun while it was lucid.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 18, 2019 04:03PM)
I argue that even if we are in a flood of information and fighting to stay above water in our choices - that the water itself is not bad.

The first thing on the Taylor & Francis site is the picture. https://www.tandfonline.com/ See the zebra. Check out the article https://www.tandfonline.com/story-behind-August-2019
Not the best source of research, data, or informed opinion. Nice of them to sneak in the word deviance.

That string after the engadget.com article link came from the internet. The article is about programs to filter out spam emails. The article says they are winning. The fact of that string suggests the battleground moved to data we don't see directly. That's not monkeys randomly typing or a just a program randomly producing content. :(
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 18, 2019 04:57PM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2019, S2000magician wrote:
[quote]On Oct 18, 2019, R.S. wrote:
I'm sure there are far more coroner's reports listing the cause of death as "bullet wound" than "internet".[/quote]
That's pretty disingenuous, and, frankly, a lot more callous than I'd have expected from you. [/quote]

Not sure what's disingenuous (or callous) about it. Do you think more people die as a direct result of the internet than from guns??

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 18, 2019 05:09PM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2019, magicfish wrote:
"If we agree that death, pain, and suffering are generally bad things, then the gun can be directly tied to those things much more than the internet can. The best you've done is to posit that the internet can (possibly) be a contributing factor in some cases. There's not much in the way of direct causation. I'm sure there are far more coroner's reports listing the cause of death as "bullet wound" than "internet".†

Once again, nothing to do with causation. You are on this gun thing. And that's fine, but again it is purely subjective. You think guns are worse for humankind than the internet. You've given some relatively small numbers about deaths or injuries per year in a certain country.[/quote]

Does the internet cause problems or not? This has [I]everything[/I] to do with causation.

You are on this internet thing. And that's fine, but again it is purely subjective. You think the internet is worse for humankind than guns. You've given some unsubstantiated numbers about deaths or injuries.

[quote]

"You'd have to squint pretty hard to see the "upside" of disease, natural disasters ("disaster" is part of the term!), wars, and forest fires. The upside of guns is debatable as well. But even if we grant whatever upside they may have, it still doesn't come close to the upside of the internet, imo."

Remember any and all negatives of something,anything, that is 3-4 billion strong and growing is going to have a massive impact on human life.
Nolan Ryan had the most strikeouts but doesn't he also have the most walks?
Golden Retrievers account for the most dog bites on humans.
Just sheer numbers of course.
Weak analogies but you get my point. [/quote]

Yes, I get your point. I just don't buy your argument that the internet is the worst thing ever.

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 18, 2019 05:10PM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
This was fun while it was lucid. [/quote]

Yep!!

Ron
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Oct 18, 2019 06:26PM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2019, R.S. wrote:

Not sure what's disingenuous (or callous) about it. Do you think more people die as a direct result of the internet than from guns??

Ron [/quote]

What does "direct-result" mean? What about trigger-fingers? Bullets? Motivations?
Why is death The Gun's fault?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 18, 2019 07:02PM)
What if the internet influences you to get a gun and shoot somebody? Do we blame the gun or the internet?
I can certainly see where the internet may have played a big part in a shooting.


Tom
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 18, 2019 07:39PM)
Unfortunately, it plays a huge part in mass shootings.
Message: Posted by: gallagher (Oct 19, 2019 01:55AM)
Hmmm? 🤔
So here we are,...on the internet,
discussing "How 'bad' the Internet is",..
backing up our argument,..
with research,..
found thru the internet...

Sounds a bit 'fishy', to me.

Gallagher

p.s.: At the last body-count,
we're still at...... 0.

p.s.s.: Anybody want to bet that Greg,
the initiator of the Thread,
ISN'T
back 'on-line'?
☺️
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 19, 2019 03:24AM)
If it wasnít for the internet I would never have bought three picnic sets.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 19, 2019 06:35AM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2019, gallagher wrote:
Hmmm? 🤔
So here we are,...on the internet,
discussing "How 'bad' the Internet is",..
backing up our argument,..
with research,..
found thru the internet...

Sounds a bit 'fishy', to me.

Gallagher

p.s.: At the last body-count,
we're still at...... 0.

p.s.s.: Anybody want to bet that Greg,
the initiator of the Thread,
ISN'T
back 'on-line'?
☺️ [/quote]

And tonight I'll have a drink and talk about my liver, then have a pizza and talk about cholesterol and blood pressure.
I could send a letter critiquing the postal service or make a call to complain about the phone service.
Using the internet to discuss the internet is no different. Let's put that one to bed shall we?
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 19, 2019 07:32AM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Oct 18, 2019, R.S. wrote:

Not sure what's disingenuous (or callous) about it. Do you think more people die as a direct result of the internet than from guns??

Ron [/quote]

What does "direct-result" mean? What about trigger-fingers? Bullets? Motivations? [/quote]

The internet is basically conceptual. Like the economy. Sure it's implemented by hardware and wires and machines and electricity and keyboards, etc. But as a concept it is incapable of directly killing/harming somebody. At best, it can be a motivator and an influencer. But I don't see how it could be the primary cause of death/injury. On the other hand, bullets, by virtue of destroying one's internal organs upon entering the body, are a [I]primary/direct[/I] cause of injury/death.

[quote]
Why is death The Gun's fault? [/quote]

Now you seem to be introducing "blame", which is not the same as "cause of death". Do you agree that people can and do die as a result of gunshot wounds?

Ron
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 19, 2019 07:43AM)
[quote]On Oct 18, 2019, magicfish wrote:
Unfortunately, it plays a huge part in mass shootings. [/quote]

And how huge a part do the guns used in those mass shootings play???

If there were no guns, there could never be a mass shooting. On the other hand, if there were no internet, there could still be mass shootings.


Ron

PS - For the record, I'm NOT advocating for no guns. Just presenting some hypotheticals. And I don't want this to be a gun ownership debate. We're discussing the relative impacts of different technologies on society and their causal links.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 19, 2019 08:03AM)
How many die as a result of automobile accidents?

How about electricity? Without it no Internet right?
Message: Posted by: Mr Salk (Oct 19, 2019 08:46AM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2019, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 18, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:

Why is death The Gun's fault? [/quote]

Now you seem to be introducing "blame", which is not the same as "cause of death". Do you agree that people can and do die as a result of gunshot wounds?

Ron [/quote]

Nobody blames rope for hangings.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 19, 2019 12:31PM)
I do.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 19, 2019 01:10PM)
We were wondering who nobody was.

The problem with the internet is that nobody moves. Only the mind moves in the net: on a magic carpet ride to far-away places. Therefore then, the internet is putting us all to death by body exercise deprivation.
Message: Posted by: R.S. (Oct 19, 2019 03:15PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2019, R.S. wrote:
[quote]On Oct 18, 2019, Mr Salk wrote:

Why is death The Gun's fault? [/quote]

Now you seem to be introducing "blame", which is not the same as "cause of death". Do you agree that people can and do die as a result of gunshot wounds?

Ron [/quote]

Nobody blames rope for hangings. [/quote]

Danny does. Anyway, does the rope play a primary role in the "cause of death"?

Ron
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 19, 2019 05:21PM)
How do we blame the same rope as keeps our ships on dock for some ugly act of violence? The rope is not a WiFi device that took signals from the wrong netnwork, or an autonomous device which the user programmed.

We don't (yet) have smart objects. But from as long ago as The Golem, and more recently in The Twonky (1942, Philip K. Dick's story "Nanny", and Charlie Stross's "Rule 34" (2011) it's been pretty clear that smart devices come with consequences. Alexa, give them a flu.

We could shift the target of blame from "the internet" to "social media designed to capture user attention". How's that?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 19, 2019 07:05PM)
The rope is the Method, like the Gun, and has nothing to do with 'Why' it was used. People donít hang themselves because the rope is colored white.
And people donít shoot others because the gun is pretty. The method and the reason are two completely different things. The internet gives people reasons,
or so they think, to commit crime. Itís a place where they can get attention and even justify the crime in their own mind. With the internet they now have
an audience to play to. The attention seekers with a messed up mind love it.

Tom
Message: Posted by: landmark (Oct 19, 2019 07:57PM)
So it's like religion?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 19, 2019 08:10PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
How do we blame the same rope as keeps our ships on dock for some ugly act of violence? The rope is not a WiFi device that took signals from the wrong netnwork, or an autonomous device which the user programmed.

We don't (yet) have smart objects. But from as long ago as The Golem, and more recently in The Twonky (1942, Philip K. Dick's story "Nanny", and Charlie Stross's "Rule 34" (2011) it's been pretty clear that smart devices come with consequences. Alexa, give them a flu.

We could shift the target of blame from "the internet" to "social media designed to capture user attention". How's that? [/quote]
No internet, no social media.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 19, 2019 08:11PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2019, landmark wrote:
So it's like religion? [/quote]
Some religions, perhaps, but not all.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 19, 2019 08:19PM)
Give 'em enough rope, and they'll hang themselves.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 19, 2019 08:24PM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2019, magicfish wrote:
No internet, no social media. [/quote]
We've had graffiti on walls and bathroom stalls, gossip magazines and Elvis sightings since people had black and white televisions.

Is this about IP traffic, Everybody can see online content, or something more?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 19, 2019 08:27PM)
"We've had graffiti on walls and bathroom stalls, gossip magazines and Elvis sightings since people had black and white televisions.†"
So what?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 19, 2019 08:44PM)
So it's not public comment, sordid personal details made public, or specious reports designed to alert specific groups (Elvis fans in that example).

What then is your target of blame?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Oct 19, 2019 11:59PM)
Bullets can only kill the body but the net can destroy the soul.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 21, 2019 09:54AM)
For better, indifferent, or worse, we have an easy-to-use tool: https://steganography.live/encrypt

Please, please, don't impute values or intention onto "the internet", lest you get what you wished for.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Oct 22, 2019 08:28PM)
It doesn't need values or intentions imputed on it for it to be a bad thing for the world.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Oct 28, 2019 06:24PM)
I prefer to consider our ability to communicate a good thing about the world. Whether people move information around to help or harm a moral choice.
Message: Posted by: lunatik (Oct 30, 2019 07:04AM)
[quote]On Oct 19, 2019, magicfish wrote:
[quote]On Oct 19, 2019, landmark wrote:
So it's like religion? [/quote]
Some religions, perhaps, but not all. [/quote]


Maybe even more relevant to a lot of current day academia?
Message: Posted by: Josh Riel (Oct 31, 2019 01:11AM)
[quote]People donít hang themselves because the rope is colored white.
And people donít shoot others because the gun is pretty. [/quote]

Are you sure?
Those 2 reasons for death are almost rational compared to others that we know of.


Unbalanced people can surprise you with their reasoning, and I think just about everyone is imbalanced.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 5, 2019 11:10AM)
Firefox uses might breathe a little easier:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=377496

Seems they sat on this bug for 12 years!
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 5, 2019 05:38PM)
Greg has virtually left the building.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Nov 8, 2019 09:00AM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
I prefer to consider our ability to communicate a good thing about the world. Whether people move information around to help or harm a moral choice. [/quote]
Ideally, yes. But in reality, no.
Putting 4 billion people in the same room is never a good idea.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 8, 2019 03:33PM)
There are spies working for twitter.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 8, 2019 04:17PM)
[quote]On Nov 8, 2019, magicfish wrote:

Putting 4 billion people in the same room is never a good idea. [/quote]

Especially if you have to wait for the one bathroom.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Nov 8, 2019 06:29PM)
[quote]On Nov 8, 2019, landmark wrote:
[quote]On Nov 8, 2019, magicfish wrote:

Putting 4 billion people in the same room is never a good idea. [/quote]

Especially if you have to wait for the one bathroom. [/quote]
Oh no, donít worry, there are millions of bathrooms in this room.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 8, 2019 09:36PM)
And yet somehow my wife is still waiting on line long after I'm done.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 8, 2019 10:42PM)
About 7 Billion on the planet, all in the same room already. So what's the problem with people being able to share pictures of cats with some text?

Maybe we should talk about how a house divided is at a disadvantage when in competition for resources or under siege.

Apple's IOS is up to 13.1.3 already. If you depend on your phone or PC, maybe it's not a good idea to update the operating system the same week as the .0 version goes public. From [url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2019/11/08/apple-ios-1322-release-should-you-upgrade-iphone-update/]Forbes today[/url] [quote]Apple iOS 13.2.2 has landed and itís both an essential upgrade and a negligent mess. Appleís sixth rapid-fire update since September addresses the appalling performance problems introduced by iOS 13.2 but introduces new ones and ignores major ongoing issues. ... [/quote]
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Nov 9, 2019 01:33AM)
[quote]On Nov 8, 2019, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
About 7 Billion on the planet, all in the same room already. So what's the problem with people being able to share pictures of cats with some text?

Maybe we should talk about how a house divided is at a disadvantage when in competition for resources or under siege.

Apple's IOS is up to 13.1.3 already. If you depend on your phone or PC, maybe it's not a good idea to update the operating system the same week as the .0 version goes public. From [url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2019/11/08/apple-ios-1322-release-should-you-upgrade-iphone-update/]Forbes today[/url] [quote]Apple iOS 13.2.2 has landed and itís both an essential upgrade and a negligent mess. Appleís sixth rapid-fire update since September addresses the appalling performance problems introduced by iOS 13.2 but introduces new ones and ignores major ongoing issues. ... [/quote] [/quote]
Incorrect.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 12, 2019 01:38PM)
Greg has most likely not entirely left the internet... news has it that both medical records and facial recognition data are on the cloud.

Recalls the ending of Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 where somebody matching a description was needed for some reason and ...
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 26, 2019 09:16AM)
Https://cthulhuventures.com/

there's more in news if you need the astonishment ;)
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 26, 2019 10:15AM)
Https://cthulhuventures.com/portfolio/privateaccess/

Remember the old carny gag where they would announce on the public address system to beware of pickpockets? The rubes would pat the pockets with the wallets in them, from which action the finger-smiths would take their cue.
Message: Posted by: landmark (Nov 26, 2019 10:22AM)
Love how on the front page they tout themselves as into "green energy" and then you notice that one of their subsidiaries is this:

https://cthulhuventures.com/portfolio/rampart-energy-company/

When private hedge funds start talking bout "disruption," the only thing they're trying to disrupt is the flow of money away from their eager hands.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 27, 2019 09:02PM)
In other news someone demonstrated that power grids and generators can be damaged by software updates and a few toggles of the on/off switch.

So it's not so much whether you leave the internet as whether the internet leaves you (in the dark).
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 28, 2020 05:21PM)
I guess the self imposed ban is over.

Glad Greg made his was back.
Message: Posted by: Greg Arce (May 28, 2020 05:37PM)
Yes. I was able to put in an older version of the OS system. I still lost a ton of info that I'll never get back: notes, movies, pdfs, ideas, stories, etc... but I just have to get used to that. The reality is I know I've lost stuff I don't even remember I had... and that causes a bit of anxiety from time to time.

Thankfully some of the guys that I bought various effects and books over the years have sent me replacements. Since I'm using an older OS I still have a few problems, but none as bad as what happened that cleared out my old hard drive.

Anyway, it's been a bit of an uphill battle, and truthfully, sometimes I feel it really wasn't worth getting back online, but here I am. Oh, well.

Greg
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (May 28, 2020 08:11PM)
Well to be fair about it thee are others that are happier for you being around. That is no joke.

Glad to have ya!
Message: Posted by: Greg Arce (May 28, 2020 08:51PM)
[quote]On May 28, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Well to be fair about it thee are others that are happier for you being around. That is no joke.

Glad to have ya! [/quote]


Thanks. There was only one other place I missed not being on, other than The Magic Cafť, and the other one WASN'T Facebook. :rotf: It's nice being back.

Greg
Message: Posted by: tommy (May 29, 2020 05:25AM)
One cannot escape the virtual world because the real world is virtually nothing. To create something is to make a thing from nothing and this nothing is virtually this thing.