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Topic: Help with Traveling Show
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Oct 20, 2019 05:18PM)
If I lived in a tourist destination I would have a regular show. I don't, and at this point can't really move or believe me I would. I've decided to have a traveling show.

I plan to go to the small forgotten towns not close to a city. I plan to offer a kids show, a mentalism show, and a hypnotism show. over the weekend. All self-funded. Money is not really an issue.

The problem is I don't know how. My shows are polished, that is not a problem. I just need to know the ins-and-outs of setting it up. Are there any materials on this, any coaches, anything?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and help.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 21, 2019 04:53PM)
#1... learn everything you can about marketing. The biggest mistake I made when trying to produce a touring variety show was assuming that basic advertising would get people to buy tickets. It won't. A couple of newspaper ads and posters around town will only sell so many tickets and you'll end up losing money real fast.

As a side note... are you in Raleigh NC? That's a pretty large city that should be able to host a regular show. I don't think Indianapolis is anymore of a tourist destination than Raleigh...
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 21, 2019 04:56PM)
As far as "setting it up" that's the easy part if you plan to self-fund it. I mean what I did was just contact the venues, rent them, advertise the show, and that's that. Which part of setting it up are you wondering about?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 21, 2019 07:50PM)
Hey KC,

In most small towns you probably wonít sell enough tickets to pay the rent by simply advertising a magic show and hoping the people will show up.
You need help from a local group such as a Fire Dept, VFW, School or some other local known group. Their name alone will pull more people
in than an unknown magician can.


Tom
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Oct 21, 2019 10:26PM)
Tom,

That is what I was afraid of . . . I really don't want the work of starting with and training a new group to work with every week. I want this to be fun
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 21, 2019 10:43PM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Hey KC,

In most small towns you probably wonít sell enough tickets to pay the rent by simply advertising a magic show and hoping the people will show up.
You need help from a local group such as a Fire Dept, VFW, School or some other local known group. Their name alone will pull more people
in than an unknown magician can.


Tom [/quote]


I absolutely disagree with this. If you know what you're doing there is no need for this. These groups often expect a potion of your gate which is unnecessary and not smart . While it is one strategy, in the format thomasR and KC are discussing which is a complete 4 wall, this should not be part of the equation. I would never agree to do it this way.

KC, I'd be very careful who you listen to on this topic or you could lose your shirt or worse.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Oct 21, 2019 11:37PM)
I am happy for any advice. It would be nice to do it the right way on the first try. I have re-invented the wheel more than once.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 22, 2019 10:26AM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Oct 21, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Hey KC,

In most small towns you probably wonít sell enough tickets to pay the rent by simply advertising a magic show and hoping the people will show up.
You need help from a local group such as a Fire Dept, VFW, School or some other local known group. Their name alone will pull more people
in than an unknown magician can.


Tom [/quote]


I absolutely disagree with this. If you know what you're doing there is no need for this. These groups often expect a potion of your gate which is unnecessary and not smart . While it is one strategy, in the format thomasR and KC are discussing which is a complete 4 wall, this should not be part of the equation. I would never agree to do it this way.

KC, I'd be very careful who you listen to on this topic or you could lose your shirt or worse. [/quote]

Of course you disagree, you always disagree will any suggestion except your own. And it is just a suggestion, Iím sure KC is smart enough to decide on his own how he wants to go about things.

Yes the group would expect a cut of the money. But I donít know of any help that you hire that wouldnít expect to be paid. I donít know of any newspaper or TV that would give an individual,
doing something for profit, free advertising. I donít know of any location that is going to give an out of town individual a discount on rent. So you can plan on spending money one way or
the other. I just think in a small town you can get more for your money by giving it to a charity group and being able to use their name. Iím a big believer that ĎWEí out performs ĎIí every time. The percent of the split can vary.

Small town people stick together and support local groups. So itís important to choose the best date for the show. If youíre competing against local football games, a play or some other activity,
ticket sales can suffer.

Just a suggestion and however he decides to go about it I wish him luck. Nothing wrong with having more than one way to do things. The mindpro way is not the only way.:)

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 22, 2019 12:22PM)
I am pretty sure he didn't just plan on hoping people show up. I am fairly certain that the reason he started this was to do exactly the opposite. So for you to position the question as either you work with these groups or do nothing is a bit disingenuous. There is a lot of room between doing nothing and having to work with them.

I agree you probably don't see it, but there is.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 22, 2019 12:38PM)
Danny, Of course he is not just hoping they will show up. But my point is if all you do is run an ad that you will be there then that is exactly what youíre doing.
Filling seats takes a lot of work. You either do it yourself or you have help doing it.

Tom
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 22, 2019 01:13PM)
What Tom is talking about is the fundraising approach. I've never done that but I bought Kaplan's "course" on fundraising magic and I've heard Gary Carson's talks on the subject and it seems to work for them. I think that type of system certainly can work, but it's not exactly KC was describing.

KC don't get discouraged yet! If you aren't going to put yourself in a bad financial situation I personally encourage you to give it a try. Find the ideal venue, rent it for a weekend, and see how it goes. Since it is just you performing, that reduces your expenses quite a bit and makes it easier to break even. I also think your idea of doing multiple shows is good... if people like you they will want to come back to see your other shows or they will tell your friends about you.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 22, 2019 01:30PM)
ThomasR,

Iíve never read Kaplan's course but I have done fundraising. There are many different ways to go about it. One simple way is to simply use the group as a Ďsponsorí
some may call that sponsored shows but it is about the same thing. You still need a group and they get a very small percentage of the gate and all of the concession
stand take. The benefits can be worth it oh.

And for the record, I'm not saying just a straight up show won't work, it can but it is a gamble at times.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 22, 2019 02:20PM)
[quote]On Oct 22, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Of course you disagree, you always disagree will any suggestion except your own. And it is just a suggestion, Iím sure KC is smart enough to decide on his own how he wants to go about things.

Yes the group would expect a cut of the money.

Tom [/quote]

No, it is not a matter of disagreeing with me, but as Danny has said over and over again, I will step in when you are offering incorrect or uninformed advice that could cost someone here a loss of money by taking your opinion as fact. He specifically said what he was seeking, and what you're speaking of, as thomasR said, the fundraising approach, was not what he was inquiring about. He was describing a 4 wall model, which would and does not include others taking a cut as you "suggest."

Again, I've never understood why you chime in offering poor opinionated advice in something you have little or no experience with. Leading him down an improper path will not help him in any way. Please understand the point and topic, not your desire to just chime in.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 22, 2019 02:22PM)
Also, as many here know there are many flaws to Kaplan's system if you are an unknown or inexperienced as he will tell you.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 22, 2019 04:00PM)
Mindpro,

What do you mean by little or no experience? I find it funny how you love telling people they canít do something that they have already done.

Again, I am NOT talking about Kaplan's system. Iím talking about MY own proven system that I have used. I did it for several years with great
success. Unlike you I am not trying to sell anything, Iím only speaking from experience.

Like I said itís only one suggestion, and now please stop trying to discredit something you know absolutely nothing about.
Post your better way or shut up.

Tom
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 22, 2019 06:29PM)
[quote]On Oct 21, 2019, KC Cameron wrote:
Tom,

That is what I was afraid of . . . I really don't want the work of starting with and training a new group to work with every week. I want this to be fun [/quote]


KC,

Sorry I never did answer with all the distraction. But actually there is not much training to it. You deal mostly with just one person that is in charge of the group/charity.
Again, thatís just one suggestion and Good Luck with whatever you do. I agree it should be fun and something youíre comfortable doing.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 22, 2019 08:16PM)
And information done. Thanks Tom.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 22, 2019 08:28PM)
One issue you will run into with that model is the quality of the person you work with in Toms fantasy example. Your success is directly tied to the competence of this person.

I think you are absolutely right to be worried about this suspect model. If you do more than one a year you spend more time as a defacto corporate trainer than a magician.

This idea is fraught with pitfalls and I think KC is smart to see it. Not everyone is adept at selling. Most organizations are just not prepared to do this, OR THEY WOULDN'T NEED YOU. I put that in caps for a reason. Think hard about it. If they were so great at selling tickets then all they have to do is hire a performer to do the show! NOT GIVE AWAY 80% of the sales of tickets they are so good at selling. Nobody ever has an answer when this fantasy land pitch comes up here.

So you end up having to do a huge percentage of the work by yourself. If you are doing several in a tour it becomes one of the labors of Hercules. But I'm sure the world's foremost authority has done it in the 80's with remarkable success.

And by the way nobody has to post a better suggestion or shut up. How rude. We can sinply show how bad a suggestion this is. Nobody is required to post better ones, though many exist. And as soon as someone does you will claim that is what you were saying all along.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 22, 2019 09:23PM)
Danny,

Youíre reading too much into what Iím saying. I havenít said a word about the group going out and selling tickets. Let me keep it simply.
I think we both can agree that somebody has to sell the show tickets. This can be through normal advertising the same way you would do
without a group/charity. You follow me.

Ok, my point is IT IS MUCH EASIER TO SELL TICKETS and Iím talking about anyway you prefer to sell them, IF A PART OF THE MONEY IS GOING TO A GOOD CAUSE.

In a small town itís also much easier to get free newspaper and tv spots to promote the show when you are doing it this way. Some may even provide the stage free of charge.

I agree, KC is smart enough to do what he thinks is best for him. Itís just sad that you and Mindpro wonít let different ideas be discussed here without all the bs.

I wish him the best,

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 22, 2019 09:33PM)
And you define all the bs as pointing out the flaws in your fantasy land posts?

So obviously you have no counter point as you just need to attack.

You think in 2019 a local newspaper add is relevant? Way to be out of touch.

And no I do not believe it is easier to sell tickets just because part of the money goes to a good cause. That is not enough by a long shot.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 22, 2019 09:45PM)
Danny, how many small towns have you lived in? Most still have newspapers, and yes it is published online too.
Most all have a facebook page too that will mention special events. And certainly all the members of the group would
plaster facebook announcing the event

But anyways,
Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 22, 2019 10:18PM)
[quote]On Oct 22, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro,

What do you mean by little or no experience? I find it funny how you love telling people they canít do something that they have already done.

Again, I am NOT talking about Kaplan's system...and now please stop trying to discredit something you know absolutely nothing about.
Post your better way or shut up.

Tom [/quote]

As usual, you chime in with something, not the same as being discussed. Then you try to twist what IS being discussed into something you think you had experience in decades ago. I too am not talking about Kaplan's or anyone else's fundraising. What KC, thomasR Danny, and myself (everyone here but you) are talking about is 4-walling (and not locally) - which I know and am confident that you have never done. This is obvious in this thread and others by what you say, mention, and claim to be experienced. Not the same thing, sorry. Not trying to discredit what you've said as it has nothign to do with the actual topic being discussed.

I am glad you admitted to your distraction. What you are talking about is a COMPLETELY different business model than what is being discussed in this thread. No one ever said anything about a fundraising, partner or as you call it "sponsor" (incorrect term) business model (except you) or any other business models other than what the OP originally suggested.

And also just to inform you, fundraising itself has changed immensely in the last 20-25 years, especially entertainment fundraising, making what you are talking about to apply even less even if used with a fundraising business model.

I believe KC is being quite intelligent asking for real-work information from those that have done or are doing what he is interested in doing himself. Not other's opinions or theories or something not the same from years ago.

We're glad you said your piece as a point of reference. We can call it a "suggestion" as you did, even if not really applicable to 4-walling in the truest sense of the definition. I will say this it will only be fun if you enjoy the business side of the equation. It is about much more than the actual performance or show.

I agree with KC about the significance of smaller or medium markets as a great opportunity if you know what you are doing. The exact thing you stated as negatives, I have found (and continue to still find) a great benefit and opportunity. KC, despite Tom's well-wishes of good luck, you need knowledge and strategies and proven techniques based on the right and proper business model.

I agree with Danny as to a fundraising business model. You are going to get anyone to do much of the work without them receiving a great if not majority amount of the profits, let alone trusting your entire success to a group of people you don't know, that don't know your show, or the business behind it.

KC, here are just the first 7 the keys to this type of venture:

- Having the proper knowledge of this type of entertainment business model
- Negotiating the best possible deal on the main 5 components to this type of production model
- The proper funding or seed money (advance money)
- Having the right, specific type of show - A PAC or better quality of show AND operation
- You must know how to minimize or eliminate risks
- You must have multiple sources of income in the model
- Must understand the difference between performing local shows and a traveling, tour or road production

There are many more but these are the first to consider, learn and know. Without these, you are assured to lose money and perform to a predominantly empty house.

Just as much of knowing what TO DO is knowing and understanding what NOT TO DO - AND WHY?

It is not easy, which is why more performers aren't doing it, and those that do find the majority fail. Please understand, I am not discouraging you but giving you the truth, reality and My single piece of advice is easy, it would be to take the time to learn everything needed for this business model, to do this with minimal risk, and your best chances for success - as you said from the beginning.

I personally would advise you not to do this the way you are thinking, as there is a better option to attain what you are seeking.

Hopefully, now we can stay on topic and learning can occur. I am seeing more and more members returning to the Cafť after leaving or absence, and some new members joining consistently. We do not need distractions and off-topic derailments, they are here or have come back to learn and not be part of teh old nonsense that has been cleaned up.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 23, 2019 10:31AM)
[quote]On Oct 22, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
You are going to get anyone to do much of the work without them receiving a great if not majority amount of the profits, let alone trusting your entire success to a group of people you don't know, that don't know your show, or the business behind it. [/quote]

Meant to say you are NOT going to get anyone...
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 23, 2019 12:10PM)
[quote]On Oct 22, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny, how many small towns have you lived in? Most still have newspapers, and yes it is published online too.
Most all have a facebook page too that will mention special events. And certainly all the members of the group would
plaster facebook announcing the event

But anyways,
Tom [/quote]

Does Merriam Woods Missouri count for 10 years? Does Key Largo count? Wonder Lake Illinois? Sounds like at least 3. How about you?

Any more derailments from the world's foremost authority or can we actually get information out?

Oh wait let me guess. One of your imaginary friends told you to do this again right?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 23, 2019 12:32PM)
Mindpro,

We are NOT talking about doing your normal fundraising event. How many times do I have to say that for you to understand? So please stop saying it is a bad idea when you have no idea what
you are talking about. KC has already said he didnít want to go in and work with a large group of people. So nobody is suggesting he do a full fundraiser as you know it.

Iím simply saying he should consider tying in a local group somehow in the town that he is working. By the way, when we say small town we mean there are a limited amount of people in that town.
The odds are already against having a big turnout, especially for a mentalist or hypnotism show. I can see a kid/family type show working in a small town but I personally think it will be very
hard to pay rent on a 4 wall deal with a hypnotism show alone week after week.

Tom
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 23, 2019 01:23PM)
[quote]On Oct 22, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
[
KC, here are just the first 7 the keys to this type of venture:

- Having the proper knowledge of this type of entertainment business model
- Negotiating the best possible deal on the main 5 components to this type of production model
- The proper funding or seed money (advance money)
- Having the right, specific type of show - A PAC or better quality of show AND operation
- You must know how to minimize or eliminate risks
- You must have multiple sources of income in the model
- Must understand the difference between performing local shows and a traveling, tour or road production

There are many more but these are the first to consider, learn and know. Without these, you are assured to lose money and perform to a predominantly empty house.

[/quote]

So...... let's tackle this list shall we?

1- - Having the proper knowledge of this type of entertainment business model

In order to even begin that the actual model has to be decided correct? KC are you wanting a small theatre show or a "Parlour" show the way Dennis Watkins and Steve Cohen do? I personally believe the venue should be as much of an appeal as the show itself. That can be a historic theatre, historic hotel, or other unique location. But back to mindpro's #1... I'm sure he will (somewhat rightfully) disagree with me but I think the business model for touring shows changes so quickly it's difficult to ever have a true knowledge of how it works. I've been on national concert tours with management and agents that have decades of experience and the show just doesn't sell for one reason or another. To say these people don't have the proper knowledge would be silly. My personal thoughts are come up with a business model... try it out on a small scale and see what works and what doesn't and adjust it from there.

2 - - Negotiating the best possible deal on the main 5 components to this type of production model

Care to share what you feel the 5 components are? I'm guessing... 1. booking the venue. 2. marketing. 3. routing the tour. ???

3 -- The proper funding or seed money (advance money)

Yes. This is important. Be prepared to lose every cent the first go around. Things will cost more than you expect... and less people will come than you hope. If you are not in a situation where you can lose that amount of money, don't do it.


That's a good place to start....
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 23, 2019 02:48PM)
[quote]On Oct 23, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro,

We are NOT talking about doing your normal fundraising event. How many times do I have to say that for you to understand? So please stop saying it is a bad idea when you have no idea what
you are talking about. KC has already said he didnít want to go in and work with a large group of people. So nobody is suggesting he do a full fundraiser as you know it.

Iím simply saying he should consider tying in a local group somehow in the town that he is working. By the way, when we say small town we mean there are a limited amount of people in that town.
The odds are already against having a big turnout, especially for a mentalist or hypnotism show. I can see a kid/family type show working in a small town but I personally think it will be very
hard to pay rent on a 4 wall deal with a hypnotism show alone week after week.

Tom [/quote]

YOU are the one who said he had to do all that work!

My God stop.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 23, 2019 02:56PM)
[quote]On Oct 23, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Mindpro,

We are NOT talking about doing your normal fundraising event. How many times do I have to say that for you to understand?

Iím simply saying he should consider tying in a local group somehow in the town that he is working.

Tom [/quote

We know exactly what you are saying - no need to keep repeating it again and again. It wa spoor advice the first tie and hasn't changed based on his specific inquiry.

Once again, YOU have no idea what you are talking about. YOU first mentioned him partnering with someone, and most would never do it without some kind of cut or profitability, which is why fundraising was mentioned. You led things in that direction, no one else.

But I agree, take fundraising and partnering off the table and discussion, which I said earlier, and let's focus on what he was specifically asking and inquiring about.

Also, no one said anything about any residency show week after week. He is talking about a traveling show, not a residency production the way I understood it based on his terms (unless he used the wrong terms.) Which of course takes a Cohen-type show out of the discussions, and that too would entail a different business model than a traveling show going to a different small-town location each week or however often he desires to do it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 23, 2019 02:58PM)
Thomas you can do EVERYTHING right and regardless of what Tom says you can indeed lose money. I agree with you.
But you will lose MORE if you don't know these things. This is also true.

There is a very simple formula to end up with a small fortune doing these things.

Step 1. Start with a large fortune.
Step 2. 4 wall your own show.

You end up with a small fortune. Simple.

The problem is that KC is not in the best position to learn this. The reason is he has no need to worry about funding. When you can write checks with little consequence often the lessons go unlearned. Being hungry and needing success more than fun can help shorten the learning curve some. It also changes drastically what you are willing to do in order to be successful.

I don't say this will happen to him or say it as some sort of criticism. I point it out only as one of the many pitfalls I have seen in doing this sort of thing for 30 plus years. Not from sitting on my couch farting into the same cushion for my entire life. Not having done it for only a couple years.

No Tom. Not all opinions are created equal.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 23, 2019 03:22PM)
[quote]On Oct 23, 2019, thomasR wrote:

So...... let's tackle this list shall we?

1- - Having the proper knowledge of this type of entertainment business model

In order to even begin that the actual model has to be decided correct? KC are you wanting a small theatre show or a "Parlour" show the way Dennis Watkins and Steve Cohen do? I personally believe the venue should be as much of an appeal as the show itself. That can be a historic theatre, historic hotel, or other unique location. But back to mindpro's #1... I'm sure he will (somewhat rightfully) disagree with me but I think the business model for touring shows changes so quickly it's difficult to ever have a true knowledge of how it works. I've been on national concert tours with management and agents that have decades of experience and the show just doesn't sell for one reason or another. To say these people don't have the proper knowledge would be silly. My personal thoughts are come up with a business model... try it out on a small scale and see what works and what doesn't and adjust it from there.

2 - - Negotiating the best possible deal on the main 5 components to this type of production model

Care to share what you feel the 5 components are? I'm guessing... 1. booking the venue. 2. marketing. 3. routing the tour. ???

3 -- The proper funding or seed money (advance money)

Yes. This is important. Be prepared to lose every cent the first go around. Things will cost more than you expect... and less people will come than you hope. If you are not in a situation where you can lose that amount of money, don't do it.


That's a good place to start.... [/quote]

Well, no before any business model is decided it has to be clearly determined what specifically he is seeking to do and how. Then a business model is created for that foundation he decides based on his choice of the many options and variables. This is why I said education and knowledge of what he is seeking needs to be defined and determined first. A business model won't even come in or serve any purpose until then.

This is also why, just like in most other aspects of entertainment business, the proper sequential order is of most importance. Also I have produced live music venues and concerts for decades and the business model for music is different than that for variety performances. Many aspects appear the same but are much different.

"Parlour" is a magician's term. My first bit of advice to him or anyone seeling this type of venture is to lose the magician's thinking and mentality. To operate at this level, especially with multiple show offerings, you need to operate as an entertainer not a magician, and most entertainers or those you work with don't deal in "parlour" anything unless you are the Munsters of course (or are dealing with magic clubs, magic stores, or specific magic venues. Not to mention even for magicians, it is extremely hard to profit from "parlour" shows, ESPECIALLY on the road.

I'm not sure of what you are thinking, but no I have used the same business model for traveling shows for 35 years, and I know it was used back in the Vaudeville and touring days by headlining acts for generations. So I am not sure what model or part of has changed? Curious to know your thoughts on this.

#2. No, sorry other than of course the best deal with the venue the others you mention were none of what I was referring to. Lol, no I won't share the 5 components I was referring to, sorry.

#3. I agree with some of this but again, here is where minimizing risk can greatly come into play. Yes, just like when being diagnosed with advanced or aggressive cancer or a serious operation, med staff will tell you to prepare for the worst and hope/pray for the best. I would suggest the same here too. I can see why you would say to be prepared and it is not poor advice, but more practical as not to set one up for false expectations or surprises.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 23, 2019 03:45PM)
[quote]On Oct 23, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
"Parlour" is a magician's term. My first bit of advice to him or anyone seeling this type of venture is to lose the magician's thinking and mentality. To operate at this level, especially with multiple show offerings, you need to operate as an entertainer not a magician, and most entertainers or those you work with don't deal in "parlour" anything unless you are the Munsters of course (or are dealing with magic clubs, magic stores, or specific magic venues. Not to mention even for magicians, it is extremely hard to profit from "parlour" shows, ESPECIALLY on the road.

[/quote]

That's silly... a "Steve Cohen style hotel show" is also a magicians term. I was calling it a parlour show because that describes a style of show many magicians are doing right now. In the music business it would be a coffee shop style show.

I've honestly never heard anyone other than magicians use the term "4-wall." I've always heard it referred to as "self-promote." But to be fair... the "self-promote" definition I've heard is specifically a one night or week run at the most.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 23, 2019 03:51PM)
"I'm not sure of what you are thinking, but no I have used the same business model for traveling shows for 35 years, and I know it was used back in the Vaudeville and touring days by headlining acts for generations. So I am not sure what model or part of has changed? Curious to know your thoughts on this."

First of all... the "business model" from Arrested Development just popped in my head so I'm laughing.

Maybe you know the secret then. I've been on the bus with some high level managers discussing ways to change the touring business model for artists on their roster.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 23, 2019 03:57PM)
Vegas uses the term 4 wall regularly. 2 wall also. So does Chicago, New York and most comedy clubs back in the 90s. I can't imagine you have missed it.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 23, 2019 03:59PM)
The first thing that has changed is the role of the advance man. You also don't go into town and give them the nut off your wagon wheel for seed money.

I mean are you exaggerating when you say you think nothing has changed? I'm not trying to be obnoxious, I'm trying to see if you understand a great many things have changed.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 23, 2019 04:46PM)
[quote]On Oct 23, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
Vegas uses the term 4 wall regularly. 2 wall also. So does Chicago, New York and most comedy clubs back in the 90s. I can't imagine you have missed it. [/quote]

I'm sure that's true but yes I have missed it. But I've never worked in those towns or in comedy clubs. I'm sure it's used a lot in Branson and Pigeon Forge as well.

*I've done lighting for shows in NYC and Chicago.. but not anything beyond that.
** Vegas too actually.. Brooklyn Bowl! That was my first time running a GrandMA II and was terrified cause I was touring with a hog4 at the time and they had 10 universes so I had to use the house console.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 23, 2019 05:35PM)
Yea even light and sound consoles have gotten SO much more workable.

The Behringer X-32 changed the game and now with the X-Air series you can have some pretty heavy duty sound equipment at a low cost and that is portable as can be! Even in lighting in general gone are the days when you needed a whole Hog to do the job. Tech has caught up and you get fantastic results with much less cost up front. The lights themselves are better as well, last longer and have less maintenance.

It is a great time to be a tech geek!

To bring this back on topic for KC, (Sorry about that tech talk gets me sidetracked!) these EXACT innovations in tech make the touring show not only more dependable, BUT easier to do and much more affordable. The sound board I am speaking about is under $500. That is NOTHING for this quality. They have Midas pre amps in all the mic in puts. In other words it is killer quality. Wasn't long ago this quality was going to be literally thousands out of pocket for the new touring performer. No depending on the equipment at the local show any more. (This is ALWAYS an issue.) Generally the sound tech has never seen a microphone "quite like yours" before! You can pre program scenes, with the right board you can pre program light cues if it marries with the system locally. No need to travel like so many do with HUGE amounts of money tied up in tech and trucks.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 23, 2019 06:58PM)
Not to mention much lighter and more portable too.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 24, 2019 12:32AM)
Absolutely and that translates to less fuel. More fuel efficient vehicles and yada yada yada.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 24, 2019 11:08AM)
Also less power.... the first LED fixtures left a lot to be desired. But now Martin auras and Quantum profiles are my favorites. Putting 6 moving head washes on 1 circuit would have been unheard of just a few years ago.

Taking it back to a small traveling magic show.... being able to bring 6-12 moving heads to a small theatre and not have to worry about bringing a power distro, possibly paying an electrician etc... that can totally change the game.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 24, 2019 05:36PM)
Not sure if we scared KC away... hopefully not. But since this a topic that particularly interests me... anyone want to discuss marketing in small towns for a small theatrical show?

What works best in 2019?
Here's some options... Billboards, Newspaper Ads, Monthly publications (such as coupon books that get mailed out to every home), Poster the town, table tents in stores and restaurants, radio ads, tv ads, ads at shopping centers (some malls that have empty kiosks will rent them out for advertising)...

And of course online advertising.. where to begin...

now of course a small show coming to a small theatre isn't going to be able to have a massive marketing budget. So what works best? How do you sell those tickets.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 24, 2019 05:54PM)
[quote]On Oct 24, 2019, thomasR wrote:
Also less power.... the first LED fixtures left a lot to be desired. But now Martin auras and Quantum profiles are my favorites. Putting 6 moving head washes on 1 circuit would have been unheard of just a few years ago.

Taking it back to a small traveling magic show.... being able to bring 6-12 moving heads to a small theatre and not have to worry about bringing a power distro, possibly paying an electrician etc... that can totally change the game. [/quote]

Tech has caught up. The first generation of those LED were not great, but a few years down the road where we are now and it is amazing what has come to pass. The NAB show is just so cool to see new things.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 24, 2019 06:26PM)
What is this Tech Talk? Lol, I agree this is a very worthy and valuable topic, but it is actually getting him way off what he was likely initially seeking. While this is one component of this type of venture I would be frustrated if I was coming here to seek one type of info and others started geeking out on something I understood little or nothing about, that scares him away from getting his initial actual interests.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 24, 2019 07:04PM)
Well heís got to ask some questions!!! Ha.

I did bring up some marketing questions on the last page in between my led lighting thoughts.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 24, 2019 08:26PM)
I detailed it ONLY because with advances in tech it changes the economics by orders of magnitude.

Plus in reality if you want to tour a show like this the tech stuff MAYTERS.

I hope Kevin Ridgeway answers. I seem to remember pics on Facebook of Kristen changing breaks on the truck. My guess is not because she WANTED to. Their show travels and they know the ins and is of every aspect of it. THAT is how you do it. The pretty show on the stage is the easy part.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 26, 2019 04:21PM)
[quote]On Oct 24, 2019, thomasR wrote:
Not sure if we scared KC away... hopefully not. But since this a topic that particularly interests me... anyone want to discuss marketing in small towns for a small theatrical show?

What works best in 2019?
Here's some options... Billboards, Newspaper Ads, Monthly publications (such as coupon books that get mailed out to every home), Poster the town, table tents in stores and restaurants, radio ads, tv ads, ads at shopping centers (some malls that have empty kiosks will rent them out for advertising)...

And of course online advertising.. where to begin...

now of course a small show coming to a small theatre isn't going to be able to have a massive marketing budget. So what works best? How do you sell those tickets. [/quote]


I have been wanting to respond to this post for a while but have been on a crazy road schedule throughout Texas for two weeks (man is this state huge!) doing 2 or 3 shows a day without a single day off. So sorry for the delayed response.

There are many variables to what you seem to be making a blanket statement or perception about. Everything you mentioned can be extremely costly and sounds like you've been reading too much Kaplan, lol.

Each type of deal is unique even under the same recurring business model. It is all governed by the arrangements (deal) you make. I have never been a believer that, even in full a 4-wall deal, all of the marketing is up to you and your available funds/budget. This is a very elementary way of doing this and tells me much information and knowledge is absent or missing.

Yes, I agree if you approach things this way you will likley meet problems. Your line about a massive marketing budget is also is interesting. There is a forrmula for such a deal based on varible elements such as size of venue, market size, ticket prices, and about 5 o r6 other elemets. It will dctate a proepr marketing budget when done properly. As anyone that knwos this you could easily spend $100k nd still not full a 300 seat venue, so liited and a budget should be determiend in adance based on the deal. This will dictate where and how you spend your budget is you know and understand the expected rate of ROI of each source.

First one must really understand the difference in marketing, promotion, and advertising. Three completely different things. Without this knowledge, you will always be bound by your available budget. Also without this knowledge, you will operate as kind of a "layman" or inexperienced promoter which could easily be the first red flag to a venue you are approaching.

Another misconception is that you can rent from any theater or venue you want as long as you are willing to pay the money. This too is an incorrect assumption for many reasons. As much as in these circles it is a "landlord" economy, they want good, quality tenants. They have much at risk as well, not just you. Ther are very specific thigs they are looking for when considering or accepting these types of deals. Much more than just money received. And regardless of what others tell you, they are not just interested in your rent money. There is muuuuch more to this. Which is why knowing how and where to find the right venues is one of the most important first steps.

There are so many crucial steps that one should be concerned with before worrying about marketing or marketing methods. If the right deal is made it can save you a fortune on marketing.

Also, your knowledge of types of markering and which are most conducive and effective to your kind of performance and the venue is also hugely important. Next comes the psychology and understanding of how tickets are sold, how, when and where the public decides and buys tickets, and the reasons being offered for this. Sure a handful will buy because they think "oh, cool, a magic show is coming to town next Saturday." This will probably get an audience of 2o-25 tickets sold for a 200-500 seat venue Many will be other magicians or hobbyists). Again, there is much more to this than most ever realize. This alone is both an art and science in and of itself. You must know which marketing options will sell how many tickets.

To do these types of productions you have to wear many hats and with each hat must come the intensive knowledge of each of these areas to maximize or optimize the potential. Very few people will come to see an unknown magician doing a show locally without the right purpose, reasons, psychology, and calls to action.

So we could break down each of the things you mentioned above but without the proper context of the deal in place first they are pointless.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 26, 2019 04:44PM)
No offense but itís that type of response that makes me go ďwhy botherĒ when posting.

Iím asking generic questions to get the ball rolling... it doesnít mean I donít have any personal knowledge.

I also disagree with what you said regarding theatre rentals. Typically a theatre will rent to anyone who has the money, with some exceptions. Only venue Iíve ever contacted that wanted to evaluate wether my show fit their venue was a high profile venue in Chicago, and even they were quite open to discussion, just wanted to be sure the show would meet their brand image.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 26, 2019 04:46PM)
ďSo we could break down each of the things you mentioned above but without the proper context of the deal in place first they are pointless.Ē

There is no deal in place so there is no context. Itís a hypothetical ďtraveling showĒ performed by KC the magician in small towns.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 26, 2019 04:52PM)
ďI have never been a believer that, even in full a 4-wall deal, all of the marketing is up to you and your available funds/budget. This is a very elementary way of doing this and tells me much information and knowledge is absent or missing.Ē

When did I say it was? I was asking what marketing works best?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 26, 2019 05:41PM)
Thomas I have to ask you something. I have worked with a great many theaters in rental situations. I have been in the office with many a theater manager who uses other shows specifically as examples of things that will simply not fit into their "brand" if you will. Once or twice it was my show!

A theater has a marketing plan. Often that plan does not include just renting to anyone with a check. Many for example are music oriented and will not even consider anything not music. One near my sisters house does exclusively plays. No matter the night of the week or if they are between runs they rent to nobody.

So I am having to disagree a bit about if they rent to anyone with a check. I have worked with small places in Chicago that still demanded fitting in with the overall scope of the operation. Many theaters have patrons, season ticket holders or what not. So it does matter what the entire roster looks like.

If you are touring regularly with high level artists like it seems you do then maybe you have never seen this? But indeed in many many cases it actually happens. When you come in with little to no name recognition as I do (Even more so 20 years ago!) then these things tend to crop up. Maybe it is just a difference of point of view?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 26, 2019 06:34PM)
Danny... yeah youíre right. There are specific types of venues like that. Those are the venues that I can tell arenít a fit so I donít contact them. Ha.

In general, Iíve contacted ALOT of venues (theaters and performing arts centers) about rentals and almost always am just given the commercial rates upon request. And Iíve persobally folllwed through with a few dozen of those rentals where it was just my personal company renting the space.

I do remember one other venue in Kentucky whoís board denied my rental for a theatrical circus show back in like 2008. That was more about them not wanting to allow rigging in the theatre for aerial acts... but still that did happen.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 26, 2019 07:18PM)
That is sort of my point. I've dealt with dozens a year so you tend to run into more of it. Also if you avoid the ones who will be like that in the first place obviously you run into fewer of them.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 26, 2019 07:42PM)
Yeah. It certainly happens, but you still find venues right?

Do you think itís because of the hypnosis thing? KC had mentioned doing a hypnosis show, I wonder if that makes venues nervous?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 26, 2019 07:54PM)
In many ways it is tough. But once you have a track record and can provide 20 plus years of venues that want you to come back it makes things easier. PROVIDED you fit their structure.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 26, 2019 08:49PM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2019, thomasR wrote:
No offense but itís that type of response that makes me go ďwhy botherĒ when posting.

Iím asking generic questions to get the ball rolling... it doesnít mean I donít have any personal knowledge.

I also disagree with what you said regarding theatre rentals. Typically a theatre will rent to anyone who has the money, with some exceptions. Only venue Iíve ever contacted that wanted to evaluate wether my show fit their venue was a high profile venue in Chicago, and even they were quite open to discussion, just wanted to be sure the show would meet their brand image. [/quote]


Too bad you feel that way, but I wasn't posting just to you, and more addressing the topic in general.

You may have personal knowledge, I never said anything or questioned that, but by some of your answers you've stated here and before, may lead one to believe maybe not having as much as you could or limited based on the questions and approach you've offered. If it works for you, then great, not questioning it. I was speaking in a broader, more all-encompassing sense, in an effort to optimize-returns-and-minimize-risks-type-of way.

After doing these shows for four decades now I have only met one theater that would take anyone's money and it was an unmanaged, unmaintained theater, that wasn't really open regularly for business, but rather rented on an as-is basis for one time events. You paid him (the building owner), he lets you in, turns on the power and comes back to lock in when you are done. You are liable and responsible for everything. Other than that almost everyone has certain interests and criteria that must be met. As Danny was eluding to the have many things, including historical status guidelines that they must work within, not to mention demographics, sponsors, subscribers, and their existing lineups. It must fit their brand and often must be approved by their board of directors.

Even for smaller community theaters of 60 -125 seats, they often have contracts with local community theater groups that have priority, first position status over other things they can accept. Some of these groups even have veto or right to decline clauses in their agreements. As Danny said they are the priority tenant and often have permanent sets up for rehearsals and runs dates, and if they can release it, it must jive with their schedule, interests, their approval, and the approval of the owner or board.

Larger theaters and PACs even worse.

Demographics are a large part. If their primary demo is 45-64, and they tend to run 60s and 70s bands or lineups of bands, comics from that era (ala Gallahgher, Louis Anderson, Rita Rutner, Jimmy Walker, etc.), theatrical productions like Grease, Jersey Boys, Defending The Caveman and so on, so having a kids/family magic show or Sesame Street Live may be rejected or passed on because it doesn't fit with their demographic, brand, positioning, or season ticket holders (who do bi**h and complain more than you can imagine and they have great clout and control over programming, more than most would think.)

This is just the tip of the iceberg. In tourist towns like Branson, The Dells, Pigeon Forge, Vegas, Rem Tahoe, you need much more than money, especially for a residency show as you need to provide current liquid funds, a marketing plan for the duration of the contract, and much more.

For one-nighters, there is a whole different set of requirements. Both of course include insurance, extras if it is a union room or city, and so on.

Also being an unknown name will not fit well if their current lineup is all celebrity or nationally known acts even of from 40 or 50 years ago. It's like Sesame Street's which one of these things doesn't belong? It's you (not your thomasR, but the unknown entity).

One wrong move can create image damage, funding damage, sponsor damage and more.

So I too greatly disagree with you that they will accept just anyone's money. This is why it is important to learn and know the differences in types of these venues. Just like the differences between a kid's party, cruise ship, festival, trade show and la ladies club. Just like knowing and understanding the differences in Consumer and Professional markets, these are huge differences, so knowing the right type of venue is an early crucial step. Look at Bill Gladwell's experiences and the struggles he's had. Look at Vegas and the number of failed shows or in any of the other tourist towns. The right deal with the right type of venue is a must or you make the odds even worst against you before you have even started.

Also remember, often the people you travel with are not the people behind the deal. They are the frontline crew that runs the production. Rarely are the ones who've made the deal, running the show and whose money is on the line. Crew and road managers are only roles in the production.

While the nature of a show like a hypnosis show's perception can come int play, it again has more to do with their reputation, demographics and type and style of programming lineup that is part of their business model. Yes, your business model must align with theirs or problems will occur quickly. There are some types of places where a hypnosis show will outdraw a magic show any day. The opposite is true of other venues. Being the wrong match would make a venue much more nervous than a style of show (hypnosis). Also, it must be a fit. There are some fantastic nationally known Jazz artists that are among the best in the industry. Unfortunately for the major of venues, regardless of how good they sound, how many millions of records they have sold, if they are not a match for their audience they will likely say no. Jazz is a hard sell to most venues. Great music and artists, but not the mass appeal for most venues and their audiences.

Another concern, using the jazz example, is they don't want a 1/3 full house regardless of how great the act is. 2/3s of an empty house is not good for business, profitably or image.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 26, 2019 09:45PM)
Well I'll just say my experiences have been different than yours when dealing with local theaters up to large performing arts centers in both small towns and large cities. I've personally made the initial contacts and signed the contracts for virtually unknown shows playing these venues. It's always been a pretty simple process that involves me asking for rental rates and available dates... me filling out an application and sending a deposit... me signing the contract.... and yeah then the show happens. I could have gotten lucky but I've rented venues in NC, SC, TN, GA, AL, KY, IN, MS and PA and had pretty much the same experiences.

I totally agree that I don't have as much knowledge as I could... I'm ALWAYS trying to learn more about this industry.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 26, 2019 10:08PM)
I know nothing about the large tourist areas, but ! completely agree with thomasR that a small town theatre will usually rent to anyone who has the money. And its not that hard to do, Only problem is in a small town the Ďdeposití can vary and be higher for someone out of town. And yes you do have to provide proof of insurance. But I do agree they do like Name Entertainers so they can have a packed house and get a good percentage of ticket sales besides the flat rent.

We have a 900+ seat theater here and for years we did our annual magic club show there. I had the theater call me one year asking if it was anyway I could change our scheduled date. No problem because this was 4 or 5 months out and we moved our date up a week. I knew the management and found out it was a country music superstar wanting the date. So I know for a fact many theaters has different contracts, one for out of town people and one for the locals. Many of the small town theaters are run by city officials and they need the locals to use it as much as possible because that is their bread and butter customers. Out of town performers are just extra and not the main source of income.

But for smaller shows theaters are not the only place to do shows, many small towns have community centers with a stage suitable for a show, and you can expect a smaller rate there. School stages can be acquired to if you know what you doing.

This is why I always suggest trying to tie the show in with a local group if possible. You can get a much better deal all the way around. Us small town people donít trust you out-of-towners. Youíre welcome to come but donít expect any special treatment and be prepared to pay.:)

But no itís not rocket science to rent a place.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 26, 2019 10:44PM)
[quote]On Oct 26, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
I know nothing


Tom [/quote]

At least you admit it. FINALLY.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 27, 2019 10:02AM)
Tom was correct... they will want proof of insurance. Thatís very true!
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 27, 2019 10:48AM)
I can remember a time when insurance was rarely mentioned when renting a place. But in todays world it is a big deal even in the smallest of towns.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 27, 2019 10:52AM)
Is there a traveling show in the past 50 years doing so without insurance? It is and has been an absolute requirement.

One way or another something was insured. Many negotiate to have the venue provide it or what not, but there was always a component of insurance. You can't bring hundreds of people into a space and take control of them and not have it.

Put forth your "aw shucks I'm a small town guy" bs all you want. You're still showcasing your lack of experience. Unless someone is talking about touring in fantasy land 60 years ago this is a lack of experience.

No Tom. You could have held them to that contact.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 27, 2019 11:32AM)
I agree. That was the reason I originally mentioned insurance in the first place is it often one of the elements not realized or factored for which can be a game-changer when problems occur.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 27, 2019 11:50AM)
Business places, including theaters, will usually have insurance that will cover ANY accident. But it wasnít until the nightclub fires a few years back that drew so much attention did insurance companies start telling their customers to have a backup insurance when it comes to out of town visitors such as entertainers.

Iíve never owned a business where I didnít have insurance that wouldnít cover anybody that walked inside of it. Thatís a requirement for any place where others gather. Even the small market daycare centers today are required by law to have insurance.. And yes it would cover a visiting magician, but donít be surprised when they ask you for proof of insurance. No need for them to file a claim on their own insurance when they can file it on yours.

I donít care what anybody tells you, it hasnít always been this way. I have rented many, many places in small towns to do a magic show that never mentioned insurance. Times have changed over the past 10/15 years where everyone is afraid of lawsuits.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 27, 2019 11:54AM)
Once again Tom and his opinion knows best. Yet those of us that do and have done this for years are wrong. Ok, Tom, got it. The agenda continues...
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 27, 2019 11:57AM)
Like the other thread, do you have experience producing and promoting a traveling show Tom? (the actual title and purpose of this thread)
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 27, 2019 11:58AM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
I agree. That was the reason I originally mentioned insurance in the first place is it often one of the elements not realized or factored for which can be a game-changer when problems occur. [/quote]

It is an extra expense that needs to be factored in. As Danny mentioned, sometimes theaters will add you on to their insurance for a fee. Otherwise you need to purchase it and provide proof to the theatre or the contract is cancelled.
If you plan to do more than a couple shows in a year, an annual policy is something to look in to.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 27, 2019 12:24PM)
Oh I completely agree anybody set up to do business, magic or whatever, needs insurance.

My point is itís a much bigger deal today than it was a few years ago. More people will ask for it now, so have it.

Tom
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Oct 27, 2019 12:30PM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
Like the other thread, do you have experience producing and promoting a traveling show Tom? (the actual title and purpose of this thread) [/quote]


Yes.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 27, 2019 12:33PM)
Tom this was an issue in the 1990's. It has been an issue forever. There never was a time when a theater was happy to cover liability for a traveling show. It never happened that way ever except in fantasy land 60 years ago apparently.

Night club fires had nothing to do with it in the world we inhabit.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 27, 2019 01:13PM)
And who cares? He is asking about touring in 2019, not in fantasy land 1980.
Message: Posted by: Wravyn (Oct 27, 2019 07:05PM)
I have a question, more out of curiosity than wanting to do it.
From reading things in The Jinx, magicians were able to book and present shows at hotels. I know that hotels are not anything like they used to be and neither is society, yet is there a market for a traveling show to book a hotel for a weekend? Could it be a viable venture?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 27, 2019 07:40PM)
I doubt it. But anything is possible.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 28, 2019 01:28PM)
[quote]On Oct 27, 2019, Wravyn wrote:
I have a question, more out of curiosity than wanting to do it.
From reading things in The Jinx, magicians were able to book and present shows at hotels. I know that hotels are not anything like they used to be and neither is society, yet is there a market for a traveling show to book a hotel for a weekend? Could it be a viable venture? [/quote]

Steve Cohen has performed his "Chamber Magic" shows at upscale hotels in Chicago and Beverly Hills in addition to his normal hotel show in NYC.

A hotel doesn't really solve any of the problems that a touring show has... you still have to advertise and get people to buy tickets. One positive about the upscale nature of shows like Steve Cohen's Chamber Magic and Dennis Watkins Magic Parlor is they have a lower capacity by design. If I rent a 300 seat theatre and only 50 people show up... I'm not going to feel like it was a success. That's pretty much a sell out for Cohen.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 28, 2019 01:38PM)
His deal is not touring. Sure he did a couple other cities, but his deal is Wirth the main hotel company. Very different.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 28, 2019 02:08PM)
This is why I say so much depends on the actual deal and the model chosen. Most of those hotel deals are different than a road or touring deal.

To more specifically address Wravyn question, touring or traveling productions in hotels these days are more often for educational or content types of productions (real estate investing, flipping, stop smoking, weight loss, etc.) rather than entertainment shows or productions. I tis much better income for hotels. Is it still possible yes, but since it is not so common in the hospitality (hotel) industry these days, and entertainment has been eliminated from host hotels in lieu of other income-producing options, it would be a much harder sell or trying to present something that is out of the norm for them.

As residency show at a hotel, I think could still be doable if all of the necessary elements were in place, the hotel was completely onboard, and you had the bankroll to fund it for a year or two to stick with it until the point of turning the corner of profitability. That is a lot to line up properly, which is why it is rare and usually the exception to the rule. Of course, chances could be better in a tourist market if it is a tourist property (hotel).

One of the benefits to a hotel venture is they have in-house resources to promote the production, and an in-house audience to target. The problem is most I have seen attempt this RELY primarily on this audience which is an uncontrollable variable. They often don't do much outter promotion to actually bring in an audience because of this which is where many shoot themselves in the foot. They misunderstand and misjudge the hotel's in-house audience element, then don't put enough primary effort on the proper and necessary outside, public promotion and marketing.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 28, 2019 02:17PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
His deal is not touring. Sure he did a couple other cities, but his deal is Wirth the main hotel company. Very different. [/quote]

Agreed. Just something that I thought was worth mentioning as an example.
Message: Posted by: Wravyn (Oct 28, 2019 02:43PM)
Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time to answer. I do think I understand the
why.
As Mindpro mentioned, the real estate and house flip seminars that take place at hotels are the reason I asked. I had heard some radio promotions about a seminar for house flipping which instigated my question.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 28, 2019 02:46PM)
ThomasR, just out of curiosity and trying to better understand what you do, are you moving away from contracted lighting work with your bands and more into self-produced ventures, or is it something you just do on the side? Is it something you are moving into more or just side projects?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 28, 2019 02:51PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2019, Wravyn wrote:
Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time to answer. I do think I understand the
why.
As Mindpro mentioned, the real estate and house flip seminars that take place at hotels are the reason I asked. I had heard some radio promotions about a seminar for house flipping which instigated my question. [/quote]

My production company has produced many of these for some of the top brands/experts in the country, as well as my own, and events in the entrepreneur space. Hotels prefer these types of deals over entertainment events. They are popular and fueled by reality television which is a huge coup for attendance and numbers at these events. Great question!
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 28, 2019 03:02PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
ThomasR, just out of curiosity and trying to better understand what you do, are you moving away from contracted lighting work with your bands and more into self-produced ventures, or is it something you just do on the side? Is it something you are moving into more or just side projects? [/quote] I wish I understood what I do! :p But yes the goal has always been to produce more shows on my own.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 28, 2019 03:30PM)
Lol!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 28, 2019 11:52PM)
[quote]On Oct 28, 2019, Wravyn wrote:
Gentlemen, thank you for taking the time to answer. I do think I understand the
why.
As Mindpro mentioned, the real estate and house flip seminars that take place at hotels are the reason I asked. I had heard some radio promotions about a seminar for house flipping which instigated my question. [/quote]

The hotel industry has changed significantly in the past few decades. Few if any hotels actually run the restaurants in the buildings. Often they are leased out space. It is less expensive this way. Forget Vegas as a hotel model. That is an anomaly and not the norm in the industry.

Hotels suffer from being VERY top heavy in management structure. They have a manager for food and beverage, rooms division, security, grounds, housekeeping, night manager and on and on. ALL of these people have the power to say no to you, while few if ANY have the power to say yes to you.

THEN IF you manage to get some sort of deal for whatever you deal with the administrative side of sales and groups and blah blah blah. Another group who can say no.

In such a structure what you end up with is a lot of people looking to impress to move up. This will often mean nobody wants to take a risk and do something new, unless it has been tried before. Most of the flipping seminars and things of that nature happen on WAY off days. Days when the room will have almost no competition for space like weddings or corporate events.

Understand that hotel people worldwide are concerned with 2 things. Heads in beds and a rack rate. That is to say people paying for a room, and what that room is being sold for. They simply do not know much about entertainment. This is not a knock on them, but it is not their business to know. They after all probably went to college for hotel stuff. If you hit them with the things that will need to be done for your show at a hotel it will cause them to go running into the woods and curl up in a fetal position crying. It is diametrically opposed the way the 2 businesses run.

It worked in Vegas well but the model has changed significantly. Almost every deal in Vegas is a 4 wall or modified 2 wall deal. VERY few are paid a salary to do what they do. Yes you can cite all the exceptions to the rule you want but it won't change the fact that most are on their own. Heck Cirque' is on that sort of deal.

Having people to pull from and market to directly isn't always all it is cracked up to be. If the hotel is not aiding the effort it is almost meaningless. Also just having a random bunch of people who are not the target audience for your specific show really is not the way marketing works. Yea it is a lot of people in one space that you can tell about the show. But in the end it really is not a great source to pull from often.

For example go to a place like Key Largo. Yep lots of tourists. BUT the are there to fish and dive. These activities happen quite early in the morning and by night time people are just tired. Most who live there are house poor. They have all their money tied up in an expensive house with little disposable income. So a hotel deal there is not really a great idea, even in season. (Yea been there done that.)

If you are talking about a hotel touring show, expect to be disappointed. Like I said pulling from a random group of people to a specialized type of show is just not an easy thing to accomplish. Plus often people at hotels already have another agenda that does not really include a random show they happen to hear about or see a poster for.

"Can" it work? Sure anything is possible. It is just a heck of a mountain to climb.

This is only from my experience in the worldwide hotel industry for the past better than a decade. I am almost certain I am going to be corrected by the worlds foremost authority.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Oct 29, 2019 10:53AM)
While it had nothing to do with entertainment... I worked for a hotel / resort complex for about a year and what Danny said that really hit home was the number of managers that had nothing better to do than walk around and look for something to.. umm... manage? ha.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Oct 29, 2019 11:13AM)
I agree with what you are both saying. However, and rare as it may be, if you can find that one management person that IS interested in what we do, IS interesting in what is now NTR to the hotel and hospitality current landscape, and that believes and sees the potential in you and your ideas and concepts, if they are in your corner AND CLEARLY UNDERSTANDS you, your offerings and the type of deal that could be win-win, some amazing things can still happen.

Yes, it is the exception to the rule in today's market, but it can still exist. You have to seek it, it will not seek you. Also one should remember that turnover is HUGE in the hospitality industry, especially in management. Like in corporate America and most business today, gone are the 30, 30 and 40+ year employees. So if you do find and connect with that right person, more than likely they will also take you with to other properties they move on to as well. I can honestly say that is how two of my biggest resort accounts fell exactly into place.

There is also a whole dynamic that this can trigger as well (with other management personnel) that can better position us in these situations.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Oct 29, 2019 11:29AM)
Generally when you find that person they end up moving to a higher position because they DO have vision. When that happens the entire project falls apart.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Nov 4, 2019 08:00AM)
Boy, reading through this topic, I can't believe all the bickering going on, which has nothing to do with the topic. So far the OP has not answered any of the questions asked and has not even given what he means by a "small town". Clearly, he has nothing to find out what he means by "small towns", there are in his area around Raleigh, North Carolina.

There are small towns with 50 to hundred people, a couple stores and a gasoline station. There are small farming towns that use to be vibrant, and have an old theater, closed down. There are towns with no schools, only one giant school that the children have to be bused to, within a 20 mile radius, that may include a number of small town communities.

He says he has the shows and skill, but does not want to work hard to make his idea come true.

So come on guys, give this member the secrets to getting shows booked in his surrounding area of Raleigh, North Carolina, with the least amount of work. We all know you are holding back.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Nov 4, 2019 10:03AM)
Very True Bill. Many people have no idea what a small town is. Some places you would need every person in town to come to the show to pay the rent. Lots of those around here. The trick is to do the show in one of the larger towns nearby and include all the surrounding small towns in your promotions. Country folks have no problem traveling 30,50 or more miles to visit the closest Wal-Mart and will come see a show IF correctly invited.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 4, 2019 10:51AM)
[quote]On Oct 20, 2019, KC Cameron wrote:
I've decided to have a traveling show.

I plan to go to the small forgotten towns not close to a city. I plan to offer a kids show, a mentalism show, and a hypnotism show. over the weekend. All self-funded. I just need to know the ins-and-outs of setting it up. Are there any materials on this, any coaches, anything?
[/quote]

I disagree, there has been quite a bit of valuable information offered to him on his inquiry.

Also, let's not get off-topic here, he is not looking to get booked in his surrounding area of Raleigh, he is looking to produce his own self-produce 4-wall traveling roadshow. He not looking for bookings, he's looking for the business aspects of doing this.

He has contacted Danny and I and another here and has defined what he is seeking and his definition of small towns." No, he is not looking for small, country, or farm towns of 50 people, but towns "not close to a big city" as he clearly stated in his first post. He also never said anything about "country folks."

So let's try to stay on topic here. He was looking for "ins-and-outs of setting it up" and any resources or coaching on this. He wasn't seeking ideas, but actual experience and detailed information.

Producing a touring or roadshow is much different than booking local gigs. It is this that he is seeking, and information on this is being offered.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Nov 4, 2019 11:04AM)
Translation... mindpro got a new coaching client. $$$
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 4, 2019 11:11AM)
I was actually the last one he contacted, lol.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 4, 2019 11:52AM)
[quote]On Nov 4, 2019, Bill Hegbli wrote:
He says he has the shows and skill, but does not want to work hard to make his idea come true.
[/quote]

I never saw him say he "doesn't want to work hard to make the idea happen?" Does everyone just make their own stuff up now?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 4, 2019 12:10PM)
I thought he was looking for the most efficient way to accomplish the task. I believe this is an intelligent approach.

Also living in a small town in NO WAY qualifies one as some sort of an expert in how to set up and sell a show in small towns. That is crazy. Does that mean that anyone who lives in large cities is somehow an expert in selling and setting up shows in cities? How ridiculous.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Nov 4, 2019 12:43PM)
I hate to break the news but if you go outside the city to ďsmall forgotten towns not close to a cityĒ you going to find a lot of country folks. Taking advice from a city slicker not understanding the real world may not be such a good idea.

Also, a kids show, a mentalism show, and a hypnotism show is not the best combination to travel with if you ask me. But I do wish him luck.

Tom
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Nov 4, 2019 12:49PM)
Itís a shame he just left the thread though. Iíve done exactly what heís talking about doing (minus the magic) in various venues in north and South Carolina and also Georgia and Tennessee which arenít too far away from him (darn close in the touring world!).

I kept going back to Greensboro, always had a nice audience there and each time I returned, I got a bigger audience.

Not saying Iím the expert... danny and mindpro certainly know more on the hypnosis show side of things thatís for sure. But I was looking forward to the thread continuing and seeing what could be learned.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 4, 2019 01:00PM)
Yeah, me too, I must agree. But I will tell you this, bumpkin business will not help him get the job done and be the type of help he will need to succeed.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 4, 2019 01:01PM)
[quote]On Nov 4, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
...if you ask me.
Tom [/quote]

I don't belive he or anyone did.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Nov 4, 2019 01:08PM)
It is a shame and sad that this forum is often viewed as a recruitment section by some instead of a discussion forum where many opinions can be shared.
Shutting out all voices but one is not fair to the members here. But oh well, time will tell.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 4, 2019 01:49PM)
Well pointing out less educated voices is a pretty good thing though. Yea opinions can be DISCUSSED. Which means showing where an uneducated uninformed opinion will fall apart when actually tried.

The idea of a "city slicker" is just crazy. Marketing is marketing. People are motivated by the same basic things. Ask Maslow. It just comes to knowing what motivates people

Often a "city slicker" coming in and doing a show is a GOOD THING. When coming in and taking the time to bring a production TO people instead of blowing them off as not worthy it REALLY can sell.

You can pose and pretend all you want but the fact is if you are not out there doing it regularly it is just armchair quarterback nonsense. One old person living in a particular small town is in no way a qualification in and of itself. Being through literally HUNDREDS of them over 30 years sort of IS. Even if it makes you an expert in THAT TOWN, which I am not saying it does, it has nothing to do with touring a show in 2019. WHICH IS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD.

More sad than this being a recruitment section is that some view this as a place where they can spout off irrelevant incorrect information based on the "I am entitled to an opinion" theory of helping.

Actually touring with those shows in small markets may be the PERFECT idea if they are all well rounded and can sell. The point is that you don't do all 3 in any one given market. If someone wants a family show then you do that. If they want a mentalism show you can offer that and hypnosis same. You can hit them with whatever the specific need might be. It is not a bad thing to try to do.

I knew a guy in Iowa whose goal was when they called and asked what he did his response was "what do you need"? I do not do things this way AT ALL but can see some value in it easily.

It is a shame though that he has to wade through a bunch of opinions from someone not actually doing the work.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Nov 4, 2019 02:26PM)
A bunch of opinions? I only see where a couple were offered, the other 5 pages is demanding that everyone else is wrong and they should shut up.


Oh well

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 4, 2019 02:31PM)
Try harder. You can do it.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 4, 2019 05:24PM)
Hopefully, now he'll stop and it's over.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 4, 2019 05:39PM)
[quote]On Nov 4, 2019, thomasR wrote:
Itís a shame he just left the thread though. Iíve done exactly what heís talking about doing (minus the magic) in various venues in north and South Carolina and also Georgia and Tennessee which arenít too far away from him (darn close in the touring world!).

I kept going back to Greensboro, always had a nice audience there and each time I returned, I got a bigger audience.

Not saying Iím the expert... danny and mindpro certainly know more on the hypnosis show side of things thatís for sure. But I was looking forward to the thread continuing and seeing what could be learned. [/quote]

What would be your top three pieces of advice based on producing shows in those venues? What size rooms are you usually securing?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Nov 4, 2019 07:04PM)
500-1500. 1500 was too big but I didnít know that at first.

Top 1 is this... concentrate on selling tickets. At first I concentrated on everything else thinking tickets would sell themselves. (Naturally I advertised... but not nearly enough and not in the right ways).
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 4, 2019 07:57PM)
That is serious ticket sales.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Nov 5, 2019 07:19AM)
[quote]On Nov 4, 2019, thomasR wrote:
500-1500. 1500 was too big but I didnít know that at first.

Top 1 is this... concentrate on selling tickets. At first I concentrated on everything else thinking tickets would sell themselves. (Naturally I advertised... but not nearly enough and not in the right ways). [/quote]


Well maybe I can finally post something now.

I agree that ticket sales are the most important thing. Everything else means nothing if you canít sell tickets. And yes it often takes more than just money to do it the right way.

For years and up until this year, I helped promote a very large haunted forest event around Halloween. We sell thousands of tickets. Itís not a magic show but certainly a big entertainment event.
We use limited paid advertising, and I say limited because our best by far advertising is the FREE advertising we get. Those who say free is no good flat out donít know what theyíre talking about. There are more places today to get free advertising than ever before

Now to be clear when I say free in some instances it may not always be zero dollars, but close to nothing compared to paid advertising. True local people have more pull and more time to put things into play than someone passing through town would, but once you understand where to get good free ads, you just repeat it from place to place. And the good news is it doesnít have to be for a charity like many think.


No matter what the event is, Flyers has always worked when posted around town and will still work today. Itís still a main part of and works great for circuses and carnivals. Still works great for the politicians too.

But itís no secret that todayís hot spot is the internet. Thatís where everybody hangs out even in the smallest of towns, and thatís where you have to go to spread the word. Besides the paid ads you will want to use Iíve added a couple of often overlooked places to advertise for FREE. And the good thing about advertising online is you donít have to be in that town to do it.



1. Craigslist. Every larger city has a section on Craigslist to announce local events.

2. Facebook, Post to your facebook but also ask all your contacts in that town to announce the event on their facebook page.

3. But more importantly with Facebook is probably the local buy and sell groups. Thatís where you can reach the local people. Most all towns will have several of these groups. It costs zero to join the group and its free to post there. It is a good place to announce the show and create some talk.

4. ebay (yes itís spelled with a little letter e) and yes you can actually sell tickets on ebay. List it under Buy It Now and not as an auction. It is a small fee but only after you make a sale. All the views you get oh is free advertising.

5. Many towns will have a community bulletin board online that you can post on. There are also free local publications that will print events for free.

6. Radio. Some small towns will give free tickets to the lets say the tenth caller. Cost you a couple of thickets but you get the advertising from it.

And there are many, many, more if you only look and ASK.

Tom
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Nov 5, 2019 02:08PM)
While the free promotion opportunities should not be ignored... in my experiences they are not enough.

With radio... I never saw much with ticket give aways or even paid ads. But if I can get an interview, even if it's short, with one of the performers... that's when I saw a serious bump in ticket sales and internet traffic.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 5, 2019 02:22PM)
I am glad someone stepped in to point out.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Nov 5, 2019 02:22PM)
Oh I completely agree you canít do it with just Free Ads alone, unless of course you working with a good charity and then you can get the radio and tv interviews completely free.
But it is worth pointing out that one shouldnít overlook the free stuff even with paid ads thinking it won't help. It can.

I personally believe that one would be a fool to ignore the power of facebook today. There you can do paid and free ads. But even there if you do it right the free can out pull the paid.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 5, 2019 02:27PM)
When was the last time you toured a show if ever?

You are presenting pretty out dated information.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Nov 5, 2019 02:49PM)
[quote]On Nov 5, 2019, Dannydoyle wrote:
When was the last time you toured a show if ever?

You are presenting pretty out dated information. [/quote]


Back in 1926, me and Harry Houdini did a live interview on facebook.

There, when you ask stupid questions you will get a stupid answer.


But anyway, with Facbook still having 1.32 billion daily active users that is hardly outdated.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 5, 2019 02:57PM)
Name calling? That is against the rules.

I'll have to inform the moderators.

I think another apology is in order.

The "question" was about the last time you ever toured a show? Why is that so stupid? You are blathering on about the best way to do things and all I did was ask you when the last time you did it?

Then you went on to be mean and say stuff about Facebook.

So to answer the question it is obviously never.

Yout do this in every thread Tom and everyone is sick of it. If you have not toured a show just say so. People have a right to know about who is giving them information and what qualifies them to do so.

No need for name calling.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 5, 2019 03:26PM)
[quote]On Nov 5, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Well maybe I can finally post something now.

Tom [/quote]

That seems to be how you think about every post.

Here you go again! Once again, what you are posting is off-topic and has nothing to do with the content of this thread - "Help With A TRAVELING Show.

No matter how hard you try to twist it and attempt to make it pertain to your little bumpkinville haunted forest, it is no way even close to producing a successful traveling kids magic, mentalism or hypnosis show. Not even close! Yet you still try to force all of your general business stuff on those here looking for real-world experienced information about a traveling roadshow. It's could be considered flaming.

Secondly, NO! it is NOT something you should post about as I SPECIFICALLY ASKED THOMASR the question, AS IT PERTAINS TO HIS PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE! Again, not you or anything you think youíve had experience with. YOU take this and other threads off-topic every time. Start your own thread about how to market a local show if you want, but stop messing with everyone elseís hard work and time investment in this topic.

Threatening lawsuits and legal action, makingthreats, calling names - just STOP!
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Nov 5, 2019 04:26PM)
Danny, yes I have toured a show and I have a very long background in magic.

Mindpro, the main topic was over several pages back. What is being said now has nothing to do with what KC wanted to know. Do you understand what general talk is? If you donít like what I say, skip it and move on. Whatís so hard to understand about that?

Mindpro, like many here I donít even know your name, I have no idea who you are, where you from, and Iíve even heard you say youíre not a magician. But thatís not a problem oh, not a problem at all with me because Iím smart enough to read your posts and decide what would work for me and what would not. What to believe and what not to believe. And for you to keep insisting that all the readers here are not smart enough to do the same is an insult to everybody here.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 5, 2019 04:32PM)
[quote]On Nov 5, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny, yes I have toured a show and I have a very long background in magic.

Mindpro, the main topic was over several pages back. What is being said now has nothing to do with what KC wanted to know. Do you understand what general talk is? If you donít like what I say, skip it and move on. Whatís so hard to understand about that?

Mindpro, like many here I donít even know your name, I have no idea who you are, where you from, and Iíve even heard you say youíre not a magician. But thatís not a problem oh, not a problem at all with me because Iím smart enough to read your posts and decide what would work for me and what would not. What to believe and what not to believe. And for you to keep insisting that all the readers here are not smart enough to do the same is an insult to everybody here.

Tom [/quote]

No you have not toured a show in this century Tom. Stop.

Nobody but YOU said anything about anyone not being smart enough. That is YOU twisting things to suit your own agenda. All I am saying is they should not have to wade through useless information to get to good information.

You never answered my question about the house builder. Should someone have to wade through a bunch of nonsense from a guy who only reads about where to put smoke detectors and where to put load bearing walls and doors and means of egress and such? Or should the guy who has no clue how to do such things, or hasn't actually done them in decades at best, just be smart enough to not bother people looking for REAL WORLD information?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Nov 5, 2019 04:49PM)
"All I am saying is they should not have to wade through useless information to get to good information."

Welcome to the internet.

Tom's last post seemed on topic to me... and as Tom said KC is long gone so the original point of this thread was dead when he decided to take the conversation private with mindpro, danny, and whoever else.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 5, 2019 05:00PM)
Not at all, there was a great deal of contiued on-topic information being discussed. Several of us have tried to get it back on topic in spite of Tom. Just because someone contacts members by PM in no way ceases the discussion or progression of the thread. Or takes the entire conversation private. I get PMs and emails on just about every thread, yet they continue on the forum, in spite of Tom's disruptions.

Also, others than just the OP are intereted in topics as well. Many that won't post but ar estill interested. In reality, along with working with agents and agencies, the topic of 4-wall is consistently one of the most popular I get questions about and one of my most popular coaching programs. Which is why this being disrupted affects many more than just the few that stay on and tolerate this nonsense, in spite of the stuff many feel they are made to wade through.

Tom could very well use PM to offer his general information and off-topic posts as well and spare everyone else the need to have to wade.

I believe you know as well as I do that the stuff Tom thinks he is contributing to this thread would set most 4-walling products up for great loss and failure. None of it is professional means or resources, but, as usual, basic general business information, not entertainment busienss resources or information.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Nov 5, 2019 05:05PM)
Danny, letís say I see you do something that works well and I really like it. Later if someone asks me about the same thing you did, is it now not a good thing because it wasnít me the one that did it.

No It Is Not Always About Having Experience. And I'm not saying experience is a bad thing, just that it's not always needed like you like to claim.

Knowledge is the accumulation of facts and data that you have learned about or experienced. Itís being aware of something, and having information. Knowledge is really about facts and ideas that we acquire through study, research, investigation, observation, OR experience.

So now you can stop your experience bickering.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 5, 2019 05:13PM)
Can you stop responding to every post someone makes? Give it a break!
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Nov 5, 2019 05:16PM)
[quote]On Nov 5, 2019, Mindpro wrote:
Can you stop responding to every post someone makes? Give it a break! [/quote]

That's hard to do when you and Danny keeps pulling me back in it.


I posted about free ads because I felt like things had settled down enough for me to actually post something worthwhile without having to beat you and Danny off my back. I was hoping others could add something too.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 5, 2019 05:22PM)
[quote]On Nov 5, 2019, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny, letís say I see you do something that works well and I really like it. Later if someone asks me about the same thing you did, is it now not a good thing because it wasnít me the one that did it.

No It Is Not Always About Having Experience. And I'm not saying experience is a bad thing, just that it's not always needed like you like to claim.

Knowledge is the accumulation of facts and data that you have learned about or experienced. Itís being aware of something, and having information. Knowledge is really about facts and ideas that we acquire through study, research, investigation, observation, OR experience.

So now you can stop your experience bickering.

Tom [/quote]
I was just telling my Orthopedic surgeon the same thing. HILARIOUS and spoken like someone with NO experience at ALL. Why have teachers? Or schools for that matter? Oh my lord that is the most hilarious thing I have read in a while.

So when you hire a marketing company you look for one with no experience right? YOU are the one bloviating about small towns and how you have to live in one to understand how they work and now you contradict that DIRECTLY!

I watched a LOT of video of Ted Williams. I have yet to be able to hit .400 in Major League Baseball.

No Tom it is not about collecting facts. Because touring a show is not about facts. It is however about the nuances. THOSE are what you miss when you have NO EXPERIENCE. Again get back to my building example. Would you have the least experienced builder do it for you? A guy who read a lot about it and who has a lot of basic facts but no experience?

Thomas I bet can testify to the amount of nuance learned every time. I KNOW this because he said he gets more seats sold every time.

Tom if experience didn't matter then nobody would ever improve at ANYTHING. HILARIOUS is the only word I can use to describe this position you have taken. AND IT IS THIS position that you are using to disrupt every thread in this section.

My lord please stop. Nobody keeps pulling you back in. Take ownership of your own behavior. You are desperate to be relevant. I am happy to see you show everyone what experience means to you.

Oh and it was Thomas who directly contradicted your post on free stuff. I will say free advertising is worth every penny you pay for it.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Nov 5, 2019 05:27PM)
I never said you don't need experience. I said experince can come from many sources.

NO Thomas said you shouldn't rule out all free ads, but that it alone was not enough and I agreed with him.

No you canít play ball like Ted Williams, just because you watched him play, but the things you learned from him would
be facts that you could share with others. Wouldnít it? Or would all that information be worthless?

See how you twist things Danny


Tom

PS, But I have personally done shows making thousands of dollars without spending one penny on ads. So I know a little about free ads. Maybe later we all can talk.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 5, 2019 05:59PM)
Yes it would be worthless. And it should be something not passed off as experience. It should be admitted up front.

Free ads from 50 years ago in fantasy land on the radio promoting a haunted house. THIS IS NOT A TOURING SHOW.

My lord stop.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Nov 6, 2019 12:26PM)
Last year is hardly 50 years ago. And I will stop with the update below:


Well Iíve decided that I will take Danny and Minproís advice and from now on start my own threads to share information. They said they wouldnít interfere there so we shall see. It would certainly stop some of the bickering back and forth that has taken place the past couple of months. I do apologize to all those that had to put up with it. I take full reasonability for my part in the derailment it has caused and Iím sorry for my bad behavior. Maybe I can return to being my real self now and start sharing some helpful advice soon on my own thread. Thanks everybody.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 6, 2019 01:40PM)
I will show the EXACT same restraint you have in the other threads Tom. Sound fair?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 6, 2019 07:42PM)
Good for him, though I don't think he'll be able to restrain himself, lol. Time will tell...
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Nov 6, 2019 07:45PM)
Oh no he won't. He will start his own thread, nobody will care and he will be RIGHT BACK here derailing every thread.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Nov 6, 2019 08:21PM)
No, he'll get some of the people here that want the general, basic feel-good, rah-rah stuff, or those that want to operate on the cheap. It will be general business advice and perspective as always and not entertainment business-specific info or insights. As he's said members aren't stupid and will decide the type of info their business truly needs.
Message: Posted by: walidosama (Nov 24, 2019 03:40AM)
I did a traveling show before ... but it wasn't self found a local association found it with the culture ministere it was really fun I did magic to ppls never seen some thing like that before you can't imagine reaction am thinking of doing one again and go to more poor places tray it some time it would be really fun
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 1, 2019 09:40PM)
I'm back . . . .
Sorry about not chiming in earlier. The Cafť stopped notifying me there were new posts on this thread so I thought it was dead.

Full disclosure, I am being coached by MindPro.

I have decided to postpone any 4-walling in smaller (3000+) towns for now. I am in the process of starting a residency (2-wall) at a local hotel. So far I have gotten my photos done and collected. I have built a website ( http://HeresKerry.com ) and gotten business cards made. I have also gotten a second line so as not to mix up client calls.

Raleigh area has more than 145 hotels. I have gone to each website of a 3 star or higher and collected data to include the number of beds, meeting room number and size, dining and bar, the promotions director's name and contact info. I will be proposing to them a free staff party entertainment for the holidays. These are usually in January.

BTW, tell me what you think of the website! It still needs work, but I am pleased with it. http://HeresKerry.com
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 1, 2019 10:43PM)
Mindpro who?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 1, 2019 11:59PM)
Oh thereís a surprise. ;) $$$

Good luck.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 2, 2019 07:02PM)
Money well spent.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 2, 2019 07:53PM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2019, KC Cameron wrote:
Money well spent. [/quote]

If this I have no doubt. All kidding aside.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 2, 2019 08:01PM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2019, KC Cameron wrote:
Money well spent. [/quote]

A little early to make that call I would say. But in the end I genuinely hope you get a show / arrangement you are happy with. If you manage that, it will be.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 2, 2019 09:33PM)
Money well spent. Period.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 2, 2019 09:47PM)
[quote]On Dec 2, 2019, KC Cameron wrote:
Money well spent. Period. [/quote]

Very well could be. Glad you are happy with your decision.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 3, 2019 08:30AM)
In reality it can be found out pretty quickly if the money is well spent.
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 18, 2019 02:07PM)
Well, I mailed 7 of the larger hotels in the area for a free staff holiday arty show. I got 2 bites and one no! I then emailed 7 other hotels, but have only received one negative response. I can get good video and referrals from these holiday parties. I will also try for a residency in these hotels in Jan-Feb time frame.

I will continue to contact all the hotels, convention centers, event planners and DJs in the coming year.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 18, 2019 02:09PM)
Sounds good. What style of show are you wanting your residency to be?
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 18, 2019 02:11PM)
I will be doing a mixture of stand-up comedy and comedy mentalism. I just got a gig for this Thursday! A lunch meeting.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 19, 2019 12:55PM)
[quote]On Dec 18, 2019, KC Cameron wrote:
I will be doing a mixture of stand-up comedy and comedy mentalism. I just got a gig for this Thursday! A lunch meeting. [/quote]

Thatís great! If all goes according to plan Iíll be doing some public ďtravelingĒ shows in late February and March as well. *fingers crossed*
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Dec 19, 2019 01:05PM)
If all goes well I'll be able to STOP doing traveling shows!
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Dec 19, 2019 03:36PM)
Good luck to both of you.

I just did a lunch meeting for the JB Duke Hotel, which is the hotel on the Duke campus. They loved it and will also be having me for an award banquet. They also asked me if I was interested in a residency (they didn't call it that, but it is one and the same.) Hoo! The residency will probably be on Wednesdays, which leaves Friday and Saturday open for other residencies.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Dec 19, 2019 04:21PM)
Oh thatís awesome!
Message: Posted by: magidave (Jan 1, 2020 06:43AM)
Go for it KC!
Message: Posted by: KC Cameron (Jan 1, 2020 04:23PM)
Thanks, guys. It looks like I may get the same deal with the Rizzo Hotel in Chapel Hill. Crossing my fingers.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 1, 2020 06:31PM)
[quote]On Oct 23, 2019, thomasR wrote:

I've honestly never heard anyone other than magicians use the term "4-wall." [/quote]

In the recent Eddie Murphy movie Dolemite Is My Name they discuss 4-walling from back in his days from the '70s. Besides a standard for comedy for 5 or 6 generations, it was also used by underground or "off-color" humourists, and if you study the film industry you will find 4-walling everywhere from the early Warner Brothers and many studios before getting a distribution deal, to even the adult industry with Deep Through and the Mitchel Brothers with Behind the Green Door (also a get bio-pic with Charlie Sheen and Emilio Esteves.)

With just a little research you will find it dates back at least 100 years through multiple areas of the entertainemnt busiess. Circus and carnivals as well.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jan 2, 2020 07:38PM)
[quote]On Jan 1, 2020, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Oct 23, 2019, thomasR wrote:

I've honestly never heard anyone other than magicians use the term "4-wall." [/quote]

In the recent Eddie Murphy movie Dolemite Is My Name they discuss 4-walling from back in his days from the '70s. Besides a standard for comedy for 5 or 6 generations, it was also used by underground or "off-color" humourists, and if you study the film industry you will find 4-walling everywhere from the early Warner Brothers and many studios before getting a distribution deal, to even the adult industry with Deep Through and the Mitchel Brothers with Behind the Green Door (also a get bio-pic with Charlie Sheen and Emilio Esteves.)

With just a little research you will find it dates back at least 100 years through multiple areas of the entertainemnt busiess. Circus and carnivals as well. [/quote]

Interesting. While I haven't studied much about film, comedy clubs or carnivals I have researched circus quite a bit. Now I'm second guessing myself and wondering if I have read the term somewhere non-magic related.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jan 29, 2020 01:08PM)
For better or worse Iím giving it a go this year! I have 3 theaters booked. By the way the booking process was as easy as itís ever been for me. Emailed theaters asking about rates and availability, got responses, asked to book the dates and sent in the contracts / deposits. Picked out some nice approx. 300 seat theaters that will allow me to do a ďtheatreĒ show but wonít look empty if itís only about 100 people per show (close off the balcony and that will comfortably fill the floor.)

Iíll let you know how things turn out.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 30, 2020 09:44AM)
Best of luck to you thomasR!

Yes, I agree landlord deals are the easiest to land and can be done almost anywhere at any time. I do hope you share your journey here. Is this a magic show?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Jan 30, 2020 02:58PM)
Thanks!

Yes indeed it is a magic show! Which is both exciting and scary.

Renting the theatre is easy.... filling the seats is the hard part right!?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Jan 30, 2020 04:37PM)
Absolutely! Ticket sales are an art and science unknown by many. Most just think 1. put tickets on sale and 2. promote sales.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Feb 27, 2020 12:34PM)
[quote]On Jan 30, 2020, Mindpro wrote:
Absolutely! Ticket sales are an art and science unknown by many. Most just think 1. put tickets on sale and 2. promote sales. [/quote]

I can assure you it's not that easy! So far Facebook Ads are seeing results, which is good.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 3, 2020 08:45AM)
That's good. How have the shows been going?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 5, 2020 05:55PM)
I'll let you know when they start up - still just in pre-sales.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 15, 2020 09:07PM)
Well.... shows were supposed to start this week. I sure know how to plan!!!!
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 01:37AM)
What I learned (I guess this ended up being a really expensive marketing test....)

Facebook ads work. I loved being able to track which ads sold tickets thanks to the Facebook ďpixelĒ
The more money I spent on Facebook ads the more tickets sold. Simple as that.

Digital billboards - I tried digital billboards for the first time, the design looked great but I didnít see great results. Location was good, design was good.

Have higher priced ďgolden circleĒ tickets- Iíve said this before but charge extra for the first couple rows of seats- people will pay. Especially on Friday nights show (which I just refunded order by order) I had a large number of ďgolden circleĒ tickets.

Price your show so you can discount it and sell it for half off on gold star. Gold star spends a lot on marketing and they have lots of specials.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 16, 2020 02:13AM)
[quote]On Mar 16, 2020, thomasR wrote:

Price your show so you can discount it and sell it for half off on gold star. Gold star spends a lot on marketing and they have lots of specials. [/quote]

This is the exact opposite of everything I've ever done. Once people know they can get discount tickets you will never sell a full price ticket again.

It is reflex to do so when you start but I think it is a trap.

Comedy clubs did it for decades. Paper the room and sell drinks. Great formula until three drink business went south and they tried to make money selling tickets and never could.

It confuses your value when you intentionally discount like this. Ask any show in Branson because THIS is the formula that has killed that town. Pidgeon Forge as well.

I would recommend knowing your value and getting that value.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 11:39AM)
I mean itís a model that everyone uses... Vegas, Broadway, etc.

I was advertising on gold star in the Atlanta area and even Hamilton was on Goldstar. Of course the discounted Hamilton tickets were still $100... but they were using goldstar to fill in the extreme sides.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 16, 2020 02:30PM)
Yea most Broadway doesn't use this. Certainty not first run.

Most really successful shoes don't use this system.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 16, 2020 02:48PM)
[quote]On Mar 16, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
This is the exact opposite of everything I've ever done. Once people know they can get discount tickets you will never sell a full price ticket again.
It confuses your value when you intentionally discount like this. Ask any show in Branson because THIS is the formula that has killed that town. Pigeon Forge as well.[/quote]

I agree with both of these sentiments as well. The business model and approach thomasR speaks of may be a possibility for a one-and-done types of events, but certainly not for multiple dates, a run or residency as in Branon, Vegas, Pigeon Forge, etc. This would be a disaster, a lot of work and expense and little or likely no return.

I also don't agree that this is the model that everyone uses... Vegas, Broadway, etc. Not at all. I don't know why you would think this.

I'm glad you feel FB ads, digital billboards and discount tickets worked for you. I would not use these as my primary sources of promotion. Perhaps way down the line just for supplemental sources if allowed by budget. FB ads perhaps if properly targeted and done well.

So sorry the timing of your shows aligned with everything that is going on right now. It just made a risky situation or possibly even worse.

Other than attempting to sell poor view seats or a large number of guaranteed sales, I would never use discounted tickets or papering.

Was your primary source of income from ticket sales?

Did you cancel the event or did the venue? Did you get a refund from the venue?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 04:19PM)
ďDid you cancel the event or did the venue? Did you get a refund from the venue?Ē

There were 3 venues-

1 venue cancelled and gave me a full refund.
The other 2 venues recommended that I postpone the shows and reschedule and they both offered that with no charge or fees.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 04:20PM)
[quote]On Mar 16, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea most Broadway doesn't use this. Certainty not first run.

Most really successful shoes don't use this system. [/quote]

Are you talking about gold star specifically or discount tickets?
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 04:24PM)
ďI'm glad you feel FB ads, digital billboards and discount tickets worked for you.Ē

FB ads worked very well. Discount tickets added ticket sales, Iím not saying they were a huge success and itís hard to judge because of the timing.

The digital billboards DID NOT WORK. They did not show a good ROI.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 04:30PM)
ďI also don't agree that this is the model that everyone uses... Vegas, Broadway, etc. Not at all. I don't know why you would think this.Ē

Because I buy 40-50% off tickets when I go to broadway and Vegas shows. All those 50% off booths in Vegas and the TCKTS booth in Times Square.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 16, 2020 05:01PM)
For single night events?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 16, 2020 05:03PM)
[quote]On Mar 16, 2020, thomasR wrote:
The digital billboards DID NOT WORK. They did not show a good ROI. [/quote]

No, I understand that. Billboards usually have other benefits and affects. ROI is only one benefit, but billboards can offer several additional. They can be a major impression that supplements your other ROI efforts.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 05:04PM)
[quote]On Mar 16, 2020, Mindpro wrote:
[quote]On Mar 16, 2020, thomasR wrote:
The digital billboards DID NOT WORK. They did not show a good ROI. [/quote]

No, I understand that. Billboards usually have other benefits and affects. ROI is only one benefit, but billboards can offer several additional. They can be a major impression that supplements your other ROI efforts. [/quote]

Oh for sure. Agreed.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 05:12PM)
[quote]On Mar 16, 2020, Mindpro wrote:
For single night events? [/quote]

You said ďI also don't agree that this is the model that everyone uses... Vegas, Broadway, etc. Not at all. I don't know why you would think this.ď

Broadway shows and Vegas shows are not 1 night events.
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 16, 2020 05:21PM)
Yes, exactly.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 05:29PM)
[quote]On Mar 16, 2020, Mindpro wrote:
Yes, exactly. [/quote]

So you agree Vegas and Broadway shows use the discount ticket model, but that model shouldnít be applied to touring shows?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 16, 2020 05:54PM)
I'm not saying that I'm saying it makes much more sense for residency or run shows to sell poor seats and off-night/day performances rather than having empty seats as long as there are additional ways to profit or recoup from these discounted tickets. I wouldn't do discount pricing on a one night or weekend (2 or 3 show) engagement.

Also, you are bouncing back and forth in your narrative between producer/promoter and attendee. Discount tickets are much more than they appear (other than to attendees). Usually, discounted tickets to a promoter means volume ticket sales in designated times/applications. Also, there are times when discounted ticket sales can result in greater profits than even their original face value when utilized and applied properly.

So again, we must compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, and see it at a much greater level than just surface level.

As Danny said, unless a volume or better profitability opportunity is utilized, it can quickly diminish the value of your show if not done properly. The only time I would ever even consider discount tickets is if and when it doesn't compromise the value of the show or the original ticket pricing.

This is why I asked if your primary income/revenue source was from ticket sales? If so I would not be doing discounted tickets. If your primary income is not from ticket sales then it can be a different situation.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 06:00PM)
It's hard to say how things would have turned out without the Coronavirus. Tickets were selling well until all the news hit... then ticket sales slowed, then they stopped, then people started asking for refunds. ha.

I went into this knowing I may lose a little... but I was planning on losing a little knowing I was testing the show, the marketing, and getting photos / video from the various shows. But that's life! We will see when things get back to normal(ish) and I'll start it up again.

The only thing I'm truly out is marketing money... but that ads up.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 16, 2020 06:11PM)
When you get a name for putting out discount tickets that is what you are known for. To change the perception is very difficult.

It is not difficult at all actually to know what might have happened. You may very well have sold tickets at a discount. That is easy to believe. But think of why not too many comics can make the jump to larger shows for a second. Part of the problem is people thinking about how they used to get free tickets, and now have to pay $75 for a seat. It is hard to change that perception.

MANY guys are good enough to sell small arenas and simply can't overcome the perception problem. Maybe you are different, I don't know.

Short term "gains" need to be weighed against long term viability. I would NEVER position myself as a discount act.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 06:35PM)
When I said ďdifficult to knowĒ I meant in general. Not just related to discount tickets.

The discount tickets is really another discussion- I donít claim to be an expert after putting some shows up on Goldstar and seeing a few results.

I have bought discount tickets for Copperfield, O, Mac King, Piff, Penn & Teller only had discount tickets available in the upper section so I paid full price to have good seats.
Broadway Iíve paid full price a couple times but usually get the 50% off at tckts or I get a ďRushĒ ticket at the box office.

But Iím not saying that applies directly to a touring show.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 16, 2020 07:30PM)
It dosen't apply at all. It is apples and hand grenades.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 07:37PM)
Gotcha.

Well letís look just at Vegas then... do you think itís unwise for Copperfield, Cirque, etc. to offer discounts?
Message: Posted by: Mindpro (Mar 16, 2020 07:43PM)
They aren't selling discount tickets. They are selling volume tickets that later are offered discounted by those purchasers. Not the same as selling discount tickets or papering. Important to know and understand the differences.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 07:48PM)
Who said anything about papering the house? I mean Iíve been that desperate in the past... but not lately!!!!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 16, 2020 07:59PM)
You seize upon one word or term, and miss the point of his post.

They often will offer a certain amount of discount tickets. Quite often that number of tickets is gone when the bargain hunter looks for the bargain and they end up buying full price.

You can't look at it as a blanket thing and just try to apply it across the board. They are ESTABLISHED names and shows. You traveling are probably not as much a name. They have an established value.

The fact is that nobody will even know what a "bargain price" to see your show is, if they have never seen the show in the first place. You have to establish a value before anyone knows it is discounted. So if you START with that discount, you are shouting quite loudly your value.
Message: Posted by: thomasR (Mar 16, 2020 08:35PM)
No I see your point. Honestly I hate the discount ticket idea and feel sleazy buying tickets from the discount booths in Vegas... ďhey you want a free buffet card too?Ē - but money is money.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 16, 2020 08:40PM)
[quote]On Mar 16, 2020, thomasR wrote:
No I see your point. Honestly I hate the discount ticket idea and feel sleazy buying tickets from the discount booths in Vegas... ďhey you want a free buffet card too?Ē - but money is money. [/quote]

Right. Now think about if you want a lot of people who buy your tickets associating that feeling with your show.

Thing is you can't change that image later. It sticks with you for quite a long time. This is the part magicians seem to not see.