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Topic: Because of Henson, I must ask Why Do We Even Do This??
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Dec 16, 2019 06:42PM)
Iím being facetious, here. Want to make that clear from the start. But there is something that really makes me think.

Iím a big fan of Jim Henson. Iíve been watching a lot of videos of him and his creations lately on Yítube. We all know he was not a ventriloquist, and didnít even claim to be. But when he was live before an audience with Kermit or any of the other muppets..even DESPITE the fact that he moved his lips, the illusion of life was still there. Kermit seemed very much alive in his hands! The audiences ate it up and loved every minute, and somehow were still able to suspend disbelief and no one even CARED that Hensonís lips were moving. It never once detracted from the magic.

I can only say Jim was a genius! He had a special magic. Same went for Frank Oz.

My point is we spend a lot of time perfecting our craft, minimizing lip movement, and yet it all seems to be obviated by what Jim and Frank did. Itís almost like people donít care. But on the other hand, they do care, because a ventriloquist whose lips move (with the exception of Edgar Bergen) can quickly elicit snide remarks and or boos.

Can anyone explain this to me?

Why are we wasting our time?

Again iím being facetious. But it really is food for thought.
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Dec 16, 2019 10:35PM)
It's the difference between a puppeteer and a ventriloquist.



Disclaimer: I'm not a ventriloquist and do all my work on a green screen with a lot of editing.

Henson had the opportunity to create a character that people/children viewed independent of his presence. So, basically we came to know and love Kermit.

Seeing him perform and moving his lips doesn't change that Kermit (who we know) is right there. We dispel out disbelief every time we go watch a movie and embrace Jedi's, Mutants, and Superheroes.

We didn't care that we could see Kermit's arm rods when he waved his hands, or that his eyes were fixed.
Message: Posted by: Russo (Dec 17, 2019 08:31AM)
If the movement of the puppet, his character, and even the expression of the Vent. and ALL is entertaining - who cares if there's lip movement. Even the STIFF jawed Vent, if ENTERTAINING -Audience laughing, who's watching the handler. REMEMBERING - it has to be ENTERTAINING!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Dec 17, 2019 01:07PM)
[quote]On Dec 17, 2019, Russo wrote:
If the movement of the puppet, his character, and even the expression of the Vent. and ALL is entertaining - who cares if there's lip movement. Even the STIFF jawed Vent, if ENTERTAINING -Audience laughing, who's watching the handler. REMEMBERING - it has to be ENTERTAINING!!!!!!!!!!!! [/quote]

Thatís definitely a key, there. As I mentioned, remember Edgar Bergen.
Message: Posted by: daffydoug (Dec 17, 2019 01:10PM)
[quote]On Dec 16, 2019, Animated Puppets wrote:






Henson had the opportunity to create a character that people/children viewed independent of his presence. So, basically we came to know and love Kermit.
. [/quote]

Again, evidence of his genius.
Message: Posted by: Budihaha (Feb 6, 2020 04:33AM)
This thread is like beaten a dead horse again and again. :D

If your lips move when the puppet talk, don't claim yourself as a ventriloquist, please call yourself as a puppeteer.
Why you have to insist that you are a ventriloquist and not a puppeteer? Puppeteer is get well respect too from the audience, same as ventriloquist.

If you are very entertaining and audience is laughing until rolling on the floor, but still moving you lips while using a puppet, then you also can claim as a comic or a stand up comedian, but please don't claim yourself as ventriloquist.

Edgar Bergen had a good still lips before he has to do radio show and film, said the old birds. So he is a ventriloquist.
Have you see Jimmy Nelson or Paul Winchell, were their lips moving when Danny O Day or Jerry Mahoney talked? They are ventriloquists.
How about Jeff Dunham, Terry Fator & Darci Lynne? They are ventriloquists too.

Ventriloquist is a belly talker period.
Message: Posted by: Russo (Feb 6, 2020 08:21AM)
Knowing Edgar B. in person, plus others, including few you mentioned - All didn't ALWAYS have lip control - but they were all considered Ventriloquists.
Message: Posted by: Budihaha (Apr 2, 2020 12:29PM)
Didn't ALWAYS have lip control, mean they have lips control, so correct they were all considered as Ventriloquist. :)
Message: Posted by: Russo (Apr 2, 2020 05:03PM)
Now both Ventriloquist AND figure can have lip movement - both wear Virus Masks L=O=L
Message: Posted by: padre rich (Apr 3, 2020 10:49AM)
Henson said it himself."no one pays any attention to the man with the beard."..................
Message: Posted by: Russo (Apr 11, 2020 07:23AM)
Alone during the virus - am I going MAD ?? - find myself holding conversations with my Figures, Rusty, Cissy, Leo, Louie, and Ist one (Mom bought me 67 years ago) ,Andy (orig. Jerry Mahoney) - L-O-L ha ha ha ha -- I AM MAD
Message: Posted by: Animated Puppets (Apr 11, 2020 12:10PM)
Only one of mine is talking to me... the other 14 are too busy silently judging me.
Message: Posted by: Russo (Apr 11, 2020 03:36PM)
You are MAD - ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha - get me out of this jacket
Message: Posted by: harris (Jun 23, 2020 03:51PM)
Wayland Flowers was another example of a great puppeteer.

Madam had a non PC way of pointing that out.
Message: Posted by: Winks (Jul 18, 2020 02:49PM)
I was not aware there was a Department of Licensing for Ventriloquists and Puppeteers. Do they send out roving bands of officials to determine if you claim to be a ventriloquist and yet your lips move? And do they hang a sign around your neck proclaiming you are really a puppeteer? Oh dear. Or worse, do they confiscate your vent? I need to discuss this with my vent, Clancy.
Message: Posted by: Russo (Jul 19, 2020 09:25AM)
? ?? - the only Licensing I heard of - is when I was doing a series of show at a Church Carnival. After one of the shows - a person asked for my Licence- (County Clerk)- Why? I asked- Your getting paid for these shows aren't you? -Yes (50-50) Being paid -is a Business -giving me an official ticket said Come to my office with your books - I did( keep books for tax) - Fined $50. ea. for the last 3 years and $50.for current year. And if I don't keep it up ea.year - possible Jail. Telling him I knew of several performers -don't have Licences - report them he said - I THOUGHT -"NEVER".
Message: Posted by: Winks (Jul 19, 2020 08:22PM)
Good heavens. What police state do you live in?
Message: Posted by: Russo (Jul 20, 2020 10:39AM)
It was 50 years ago, in Los Angeles, Calif., the premise was, anyone being paid for a Job, was in Business and needed a Business Licence. He even said baby sitters,shoe shine Kids, etc. but they didn't bother them. I think the Pony Ride Owner turned me in as kids were coming to my Show, not his rides. Oh well I got all back in Income Tax- also Wife and I produced 1000's of Magic shows,for 10 years, in L.A. With the stipulation the Magicians we gave Shows to(yes gave-as I only asked them for $5. for contract postage and phone calls-No commission which could have been 20%)they would be working under Our Licence ,saving them the cost -20-30 Fellow Magicians. Plus We also got/did Shows also, to do. Ahhhh Memories. Ralph (russo) ROUSSEAU
Message: Posted by: Winks (Jul 20, 2020 05:29PM)
California. Why does that not surprise me (and I have many family members who live there).