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Topic: Dress Rehearsal and Performance
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 22, 2020 03:36PM)
How many do a dress rehearsal these days? It's a very important and helpful part of the process and journey to performance. Videos welcome of either and/or. :)

I'd like to start with an illustration from Elvis Presley's Aloha Concert, "final performance" of which was broadcast live worldwide in 1973. He filmed a dress rehearsal concert which is also known as the Alternate Aloha Concert. See the step up from the dress rehearsal to the live broadcast. That step up (raising stakes) was something I was keenly aware of when we went from dress rehearsal to performance when I studied Theatre Arts in College. I think Dress Rehearsal is something that many performers might skip these days, and it shows. Here's Elvis:

[youtube]ueQ04aaJLnM[/youtube]

[youtube]8gyvTV5OJ5E[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Feb 23, 2020 12:05AM)
It's a very different process doing a "dress rehearsal" for a TV show as this is typically shot as a back up in case anything in the main show doesn't come out right. SNL does this as well. On the other hand, me taking the time to do a full dress rehearsal of a show I've done for 20 years or longer might be a little less than vital. As an example, when I do an "It's Magic" Show for Milt Larsen, each act typically gets about 30 minutes to set all the cues and logistics for their act. It is a painstaking process to make sure the crew is all connected for any specific cues.

On the other hand, when I'm doing a live book show with all new cast members, the dress is vital as we need to confirm there are no costuming issues or changes that need work. It is always better to find out then and adjust rather than at a live performance.

I'm currently on the road with a large touring show. We're in a new venue each day. We will typically mark the opening and closing numbers just to make sure the entrances and exits are all safe and everyone has a clear traffic pattern as both numbers are very involved. That's all. Nothing else is necessary.

On the other hand, if you're creating a new act, then running the act over and over in full costume is probably a wonderful idea.

As always, there are reasons behind every choice made in theater.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 23, 2020 03:02PM)
When I said that I think many performers might "skip" dress rehearsal these days, I meant skip. As in never do one, in full, or otherwise. The reason I think that would happen would be mainly lack of awareness of professional rehearsal process and the benefits therein. Take a look at which forum is at the very bottom of the Magic Cafť open forums, in the Odds and Ends category.

Yes, Elvis' dress rehearsal concert for Aloha was filmed as a precaution (thus we are able to view a recorded Elvis Presley full dress rehearsal), but it WAS a dress rehearsal, with no admission charged to the audience, and we can see the results of fine tuning between the dress and the live broadcast performances. One of the more obvious being Elvis decided to get a haircut after viewing the dress tape.

[youtube]yvbdIjh5uU8[/youtube]

[youtube]LY-eoDCw0JA[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 23, 2020 05:03PM)
If a dress rehearsal means the final rehearsal of a live show, in which everything is done as it would be in a real performance, then I do that. I try and follow Nevil Maskelyne and David Devant advice in Our Magic which I assume everybody here as read.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 23, 2020 05:31PM)
Ray nails it. The idea of doing full dress rehearsals for shows artists have done forever are not necessary for all.

Spiking the stage, blocking and such ARE essential elements. Full run through not as much.

First of all the HUGE thing you have left out is the cost. Full dress rehearsal is an expensive endeavor. No two ways about it because you are paying EVERYONE, and depending upon which state you propose to do such a thing in it can be quite expensive. Cost of the space is a big deal and if you have union light/ sound guys it REALLY adds up fast.

When I was a cop we had everyone from Neil Diamond to the Rolling Stones and every major band in between. Roadies tuned the guitars, set drums and microphones. They did quick sound checks, looked for spike marks and that was about it. I got paid to watch it.

Madonna was the only one to actively participate in such things and did so for four hours.

It is not always vital even in the upper levels of performance art. It is situational for sure.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 23, 2020 05:38PM)
[quote]On Feb 23, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Ray nails it. The idea of doing full dress rehearsals for shows artists have done forever are not necessary for all.
[/quote]

I've indicated that's not what I was referring to. And the video illustrations in the OP support that, as Elvis obviously wasn't doing the Aloha Special the entire 23 years of his career.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 24, 2020 12:16AM)
I guess the question I have is what experience you have touring a magic show? I do not ask divisively . Not at all. Please do not misinterpret.

Mind you I say this all when tomorrow I am going to do full tech rehearsals in an off Broadway production of a show I have been doing for 30 years. So I DO see the value of doing things like this. I am not certain if you mean dress rehearsal of the "new show" or need to do it at every venue?

I ask that question because EVERY venue can be drastically different, which is why I ask about your touring a magic show experience.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 24, 2020 12:47AM)
Thank you, Danny.

I participated in traveling theatre productions in high school. Each Spring we'd take a show to the Sears Ontario Drama Festival competition.

So I understand variations in venues, loading in and out, spiking, tech, and the time limitations allotted each group. Not only that, but in competition, set up and breakdown were timed, as was the show- all under penalty of disqualification if overtime. One year we won and brought the show to a further venue and next level of competition.

My twin sister and I were both on the crew. Our tech director teacher, Stuart Morrison, had a penchant for testing us as we consistently had the largest, most elaborate sets in competition. We were always in time in set up and breakdown.

He also got us paid work with the town's Concert Series, during which we would help visiting acts load in, set up lights for the venue, and sometimes run lights for the acts, too. We also helped any touring theatre companies who visited our school load in and out, focus lights, etc. Tracey and I each received a "Special Behind-the-scenes Contribution" award for our work in drama at the high school level.

I directed theatre in College Theatre Arts program and I was a peer tutor for guitar and music theory in a later College Performing Arts program.

In terms of magic, I competed at the World Magic Seminar's last adult Close-Up Challenge in Vegas at the Orleans in 2010 and have performed locally at various venues.

I have performed in multiple venues musically over the last few years, as well.

So, I understand the points you and Ray have made and am in agreement.

So to answer your question, my focus is on new acts. If you can get a full dress at a new venue, bonus, but I understand applying economy there.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 24, 2020 01:37AM)
Also just so it does get said there are some giants in performance who flat out disagree with what you say here. For example Jackie Gleason felt VEHEMENTLY that the rehearsal process took AWAY from his art. Many are like that. I am not saying he is right, and I think he is an exception to the rule, but it is a counter point.

Also something interesting to keep in mind is that while we learn our craft from each other and in practice and rehearsal, (There is a huge difference.) we learn our art from our audience.

So to be clear though you have extensive armature background in performance touring you have never done it professionally? Again I ask only because of the economic concerns that are not present. Yes you are disqualified if you go over time, but you are not paying a union contractor overtime if you go over so the difference is HUGE.

Just so it is said I have never met a professional who has not dress rehearsed a new act. I am not sure who you mean, you must have some examples in mind, but every professional I know spends time doing this when getting a new act ready. Weeks are spent on this stuff in Branson every season. Heck most who add a new effect will do this. I am not sure who these "many performers" you have in mind are?
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Feb 24, 2020 06:46AM)
There was an old adage that showed the difference in amateur and professional theater. It was always said that amateurs rehearsed a show for a year and ran it for a week. The professionals rehearsed for a week and ran it for a year. Again, it depends on the experience and familiarity with the product. Unless there is a new piece or costume that needs special attention, we just mark the ins & outs of each scene and get back to show prep. Keep in mind, our usual schedule is to hit the stage around 10:30 am, load in 3 semi's of lighting, scenic and FX; hang, rig and reprogram the show to fit each space, then we're lucky if we can get the cast on stage around 4:30 for a quick walk through of the opening and closing, then back to make up and hair, Meet & Greet at 6 - 7 PM, show at 8, down at 10:15 and strike. Depending on a number of factors, the out can be between midnight and 3 AM. Adding a full dress rehearsal would never be possible unless we added another day to each date. Then again, we're on the road about 10 months out of the year with a European tour, North America, South America, then Australia/NZ & Asia. We do spend about a week or two in rehearsal before each tour and longer when we're start a new season as the scenic and numbers are all new. If we only did one show a year, I'm guessing it would take a lot more dedicated rehearsal. As always, every situation is different.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 24, 2020 07:38AM)
"Our Magic
The Art in Magic -- The Theory of Magic
by Nevil Maskelyne
CHAPTER X
REHEARSAL

A MAGICAL effect of whatever kind, and by whomsoever presented, can be made a
public success only by unremitting care and labor. Systematic attention to details and
refinement of procedure are required. And such attention and refinement can only be
provided by means of adequate rehearsal. The rule suggested by these considerations
would be too obvious to require statement, were it not so obvious that it is in danger of
being overlooked. It is this:

(24) Never present in public any performance, which has not been most perfectly
rehearsed-first in detail, and finally as a whole."

Nobody, of course, is suggesting that one must do a full dress rehearsal before every performance of the same act.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 24, 2020 10:28AM)
[quote]On Feb 24, 2020, Ray Pierce wrote:
There was an old adage that showed the difference in amateur and professional theater. It was always said that amateurs rehearsed a show for a year and ran it for a week. The professionals rehearsed for a week and ran it for a year. Again, it depends on the experience and familiarity with the product. Unless there is a new piece or costume that needs special attention, we just mark the ins & outs of each scene and get back to show prep. Keep in mind, our usual schedule is to hit the stage around 10:30 am, load in 3 semi's of lighting, scenic and FX; hang, rig and reprogram the show to fit each space, then we're lucky if we can get the cast on stage around 4:30 for a quick walk through of the opening and closing, then back to make up and hair, Meet & Greet at 6 - 7 PM, show at 8, down at 10:15 and strike. Depending on a number of factors, the out can be between midnight and 3 AM. Adding a full dress rehearsal would never be possible unless we added another day to each date. Then again, we're on the road about 10 months out of the year with a European tour, North America, South America, then Australia/NZ & Asia. We do spend about a week or two in rehearsal before each tour and longer when we're start a new season as the scenic and numbers are all new. If we only did one show a year, I'm guessing it would take a lot more dedicated rehearsal. As always, every situation is different. [/quote]

This rubs up against the idea that "an amateur changes the tricks while a professional changes the audiences".

These are the reasons I was asking about her personal experience. I am not being divisive as I mentioned, but trying to gain a point of view. The one thing these discussions often lack is a point of view from the OP or anyone posting in them. Everyone has a point of view, and that is absolutely as valid as the next person's point of view. It is informed by our experience. All the experience the OP has is amateur. Nothing wrong with this, but it does put into focus the ideas put forth.

I did high school projects and then professional projects. I watched the amateur groups. It is a very different world.

Thanks Laurie!
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 24, 2020 11:50AM)
[quote]On Feb 24, Dannydoyle wrote: All the experience the OP has is amateur.[/quote]


This is not true, Danny. I don't understand why you have a need to diminish me when I've said I'm in agreement with you.

Thank you for hearing me, tommy.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 24, 2020 12:11PM)
OK now we get all offended.

Sorry. Did NOT diminish you AT ALL. Your experience is different. Just different. This IN NO WAY diminishes you! Not in any shape form or fashion. It simply points out VERY TRUE DIFFERENCES.

And again I would like to know what "many performers might skip these days, and it shows" means exactly and to whom it might apply? See in reality you STARTED THIS THREAD by diminishing others Laurie. Diminishing others who do work you do not do! The whole premise here is you diminishing other performers. Sorry but it is the way it is no matter how you will try to spin it. I pointed out that there is a HUGE difference in when you have to tour a show and the economics of such things, Ray pointed out similar concerns. Now you feel offended because you mistakenly believe I diminished you?

So again I ask what experience you have touring a magic show? It seems as if you listed quite little. The huge portion of what was listed was not professional work, and the professional work seemed to be more music than anything. As a matter of fact much of what you list is high school level work. You have performed in "multiple venues". Well that is not a "tour" is it? I perform in multiple venues in a week.

It is NOT diminishing you to simply point out that there are different concerns at play once one has to finance and perform a tour as opposed to community theater. It is not diminishing to simply point out that your experience might lean more towards community theater than to professional touring. Why is that diminishing you in any way Laurie? I didn't say "shut up you don't know anything". Not anything close to that. Helping touring shows load in and out is not touring. It is helping a tour load in and out. I am sorry if this somehow offends you and you feel diminished because of it but nothing I said "diminished" you in the least. It is simply the truth. If Copperfield said to me that he knew more about touring a professional magic show and the concerns than I do would that be him diminishing me?

And again please direct me to those of whom you speak who you believe do not do rehearsals. I have never once ran into ANYONE in professional performance who does such a thing.

I'm sorry if you somehow are offended by this. I really didn't mean it. I don't think simply finding out someones experience and then using that in the discussion is offensive. Offended is your choice, not my words. In this case DEFINITELY not my words. I invite you to make another choice for I meant not to offend you, or anyone. You choose to take one sentence and cling to it to be offended. Again that is your choice. But I think it is not a great choice.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Feb 24, 2020 05:20PM)
Magicalaurie,

Certainly those who perform the same show every night will not rehearse before each show. But thatís not the purpose of your original post, and I agree there are many in the magic world that donít like Dress Rehearsal and had rather skip it thinking they have practiced enough. But Dress Rehearsal is not the same as practice, and itís not for the performer alone. No matter how great the performer is, success often depends on all those behind the curtain.

I could name a lot of situations where a full Dress Rehearsal would be needed. But One that comes to mind first is the group magic club shows that many perform in the local theaters. There you have a mix of part-timers and full timers that have never worked together.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 24, 2020 05:48PM)
Tom who exactly in the magic community in a professional setting has skipped full dress rehearsals thinking they have practiced enough? Who? You guys keep throwing out these meaningless platitudes about how "many" do this or that. It means NOTHING unless you can say who it was, what went wrong BECAUSE they didn't do full dress rehearsals and how it would have been BETTER if they had.

Success does not "often" depend upon those behind the curtain, it ALWAYS depends upon them. Professionals KNOW THIS.

So give examples of touring shows that have skipped this. Not shows at local magic clubs or who rent theaters for one night or what not. Tell me please who these "many in the magic world that donít like Dress Rehearsal and had rather skip it thinking they have practiced enough." Tell us how it would have been different if they HAD done the dress rehearsals.

Since there are "many" as you two seem to keep insisting, one example should be pretty easy to provide.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Feb 24, 2020 06:05PM)
Danny, who said this was limited to touring shows? And what makes you think you would know everyone that has skipped a rehearsal?
Do you really think you would know every working professional magician?

But to answer your question, Bobby Knight, John Sullivan, Toxie Evans. Or do only those you personally know count?


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 24, 2020 06:18PM)
What happened as a RESULT of skipping the dress rehearsal that could have been fixed with the rehearsal?

Point being Tom not to just pontificate that they are "necessary", but rather to show WHY they are necessary and what can and can not be fixed WHEN they are done. Is that too much to ask? Trying to move the discussion forward from meaningless platitudes to actual thought? Sorry.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 24, 2020 10:22PM)
There is a difference between practising and rehearsing and performing, which essentially depends on who is or who is not there.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 25, 2020 01:21PM)
This thread isn't just for professionals. I do think, though, and this is implied in my OP, that there are a lot of performers who are getting paid to do a show, who have no background in professional rehearsal process, who, because they get paid, think they are doing a professional show. I think there's much more to a professional show than getting paid for it.

There are a variety of learning resources.

I apologize for any dismissiveness or diminishing of anyone with my tone.

I'd like the conversation to be inclusive. Scale of the show, included. Jackie Gleason, included.

As mentioned in the OP, we can see the fine tuning that Elvis made. From what I've read, there were about 27 hours between the dress and the live broadcast. Elvis viewed the dress tape. His movements in the the live broadcast of American Trilogy are refined, he seems much more focused. The stakes have obviously been raised.

Something that got my attention the first time I saw the dress rehearsal footage of this song was the flute solo. See the refinement in performance.

Colours of the flowers used, may have been intentionally changed. Having girls with flowers alongside the stage was intentional, directed by Marty Pasetta.

Background is cleaner in live broadcast- darkened- less movement of orchestra director Joe Geurcio visible.

Elvis gave away his cape in live broadcast. There's more.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 25, 2020 01:54PM)
[quote]On Feb 25, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:

I'd like the conversation to be inclusive. Scale of the show, included. Jackie Gleason, included.
[/quote]

Variety of disciplines (magic, music, mime, dance, stand up, recital, theatre, tv, film, etc.), also included.
Variety of positions (performer, director, costume designer, lighting design, sound design, stage management, props, etc.), included.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 25, 2020 02:54PM)
Laurie. I think you are adding a tone to my post that I did not intend and for my part in that let me extend an apology. I do not always take the care I should when posting, I just sort of post it thinking people get what I am thinking. Again I am sorry and please allow me to try to reset this to take the heat out as this is a cool topic. Fair enough?

I am one who believes a person's point of view is informed by their experience. Without a point of view just having an opinion is not really that big of a deal to me. I have many opinions about my medical care, but all of them pale in comparison to a trained medical professional, and then those are on a sliding scale according to their own experience. So experience REALLY matters. It does not necessarily mean anyone has to be "wrong" just because they lack experience, but it does come into play when trying to see a person's viewpoint.

Certainly in an artistic setting such as a performance experience should matter shouldn't it? I mean if you are out there every night working at it for 30 years that simply MUST mean something right? Along those lines I just did a dress rehearsal for an Off Broadway show yesterday and the sound and light crew was AMAZING. They brought THEIR ART to the process! For I believe what each does to bring a show to life is art in and of itself. Every discipline you mentioned above IS an art form and worthy of recognition as is every position.

Understand my view is underpinned simply by experience. 30 years of out there doing it for the public is the viewpoint. When you speak of the "fine tuning" Elvis did that was in my view exactly what I was talking about. "We learn our craft from each other, and our art from our audience". Giving away that cape in the show, all the refinements made are them learning the ART. To me this is the difference that comes forth when a thing is done at a high level so many times! It is the beauty of experience. It is why it can NOT be overlooked and should be considered. It is why I ask about experience when I have these "food for thought" discussions. It matters. You can't just imagine it into existence, it has to happen and there is NO substitute. If it came off as dismissive please allow me to apologize once more. It is not meant to be.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 25, 2020 05:16PM)
As long as Elvis is around you are all going to look like amateurs and so you might as well get used to it.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 26, 2020 05:46PM)
Tommy: :nod: :hysteric:

[youtube]Feyu3er5fRc[/youtube]

See [url=https://youtu.be/Feyu3er5fRc?t=273]4:33[/url]
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 26, 2020 06:11PM)
[youtube]u-pP_dCenJA[/youtube]
1968
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Feb 26, 2020 07:52PM)
[quote]On Feb 26, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
Tommy: :nod: :hysteric:

[youtube]Feyu3er5fRc[/youtube]

See [url=https://youtu.be/Feyu3er5fRc?t=273]4:33[/url] [/quote]


Great Performance.


I have a friend that has one of those belts. She is a big collector of Elvis stuff and she goes to Graceland every year. My wife and I went with her a couple of times.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Feb 27, 2020 02:18AM)
Again, shooting a television special that will be examined for decades is very different than any live performance. I have yet to work on any TV special that didn't shoot at LEAST one full dress. There is just too much financial risk, especially if it is live. I think it's an apples and oranges situation to discuss the needs and standards of a TV show to any live show. It's the same with any sitcom or "3 camera show" (even though most usually shoot with at least 5). They rehearse all week, then shoot a dress during the day then shoot a show in front of a live audience at night. They always try and use the live footage as much as possible but there are times when, for whatever reason, the shot from the dress was better so they can cut that in seamlessly. Different situations, different needs.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 27, 2020 11:45AM)
No one is arguing with that, Ray. Again, my OP was referring to performers who never do a dress rehearsal anywhere (ie. at home, or anywhere else) before taking a performance live- generally because they're unaware of the process and benefits therein. Somehow, though I've stated otherwise, you seem to have taken my comments as suggesting a dress must be done in every venue before a live show, even if the show has been performed live for decades and I never said that or meant that. I meant that, at some point in the development of a new act, it would be beneficial to do a dress rehearsal before performing the act.

Whether Elvis' specials are apples or oranges we still can see the difference between the dress and the live. The dress was viewed before the live broadcast and obvious adjustments were made by Elvis from one to the other. And, in my opinion, the live broadcast show was tighter, more focused, improved. That is the main point of the OP. If they had had to run the alternate instead, I think Elvis would have been disappointed.

I have studied professionally. What bothered me on page one was that the extent of my understanding was not acknowledged.The theatre-arts and performing arts programs I attended covered production extensively, including union considerations, television, and film, large productions and small, live or taped, improvisation, formal rehearsal, budgeting, extenuating circumstances, etc. And I have been performing professionally since 2005. So please don't assume that I or anyone else reading here don't understand what you're saying.

If you only want to discuss apples, you're welcome to do so, but oranges,pineapples and fruit cocktail are all welcome here and allowed to be part of the conversation, too.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 27, 2020 03:29PM)
The problem is you throw Elvis as an example here, and then use that to make a point about live performance. It is quite confusing.

You are bothered that we do not acknowledge the extent of your understanding. OK after study what work have you done professionally? I'm trying to see the extent.

To what extent have you been performing since 2005? How many shows a year, in what environment and in what discipline? Again I'm trying to understand the extent of your experience because I'm unfamiliar with it and don't want to assume.

Since 2007 we have produced over 1,500 shows a year in 5 countries. Everything from magic to vocal bands to circus shows. I perform about 250 of them a year.

That I put out there because I ask you. Only seems right.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Feb 27, 2020 05:53PM)
Again, I agree with Laurie, nobody is saying a touring show should do a Dress Rehearsal before each show. That was done before the tour started. But if that show changes or you bring on a lot of new people, certainly one would be needed.

Having a backup tape is NOT the ONLY reason the TV people do a dress. The production people want to see beforehand what is about to be aired. I know if I were writing a check for a big production I would want to see exactly what I was getting. A Dress Rehearsal is to see if last minute changes need to be made. If it is perfect, great, but this is the last opportunity to make a change.

Tom
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 27, 2020 08:25PM)
Nobody is disagreeing with Laurie they are just disagreeing with their straw men.
Message: Posted by: Kanawati (Feb 28, 2020 01:49AM)
Laurie. I get that depending on the venue, type of performance, etc a dress rehearsal might not be useful. I found some of the perspectives pointing this out quite insightful. Iíve also read all the posts carefully and canít see where you said otherwise or are somehow disagreeing with that point.

You made a very important point and you made it very clearly. Iím mostly a hobbiest who does the very occasional gig and charity event. My day job sees me give many non magical presentations and talks too. In terms of magic, for stage there have been times Iíve done the full dress rehearsal (although not at the venue). I found it helped me ensure that I was on for exactly the time I was allotted. It gave me confidence because it meant my script was perfectly memorized, movement and script were in sync, I knew exactly where and how to place items in my pockets (the very ones Iíd be wearing for the show to minimize fumbling), where I needed to stand in relation to a table or bag and how best to move around, and where each item needed to be placed on the table or in the bag to keep everything moving smoothly. I hear so much advice to amateurs and beginners that they should script their magic. And we have all seen plenty of examples where the lack of scripting shows. A dress rehearsal for those developing a new act helps bring so many critical aspects of a successful and polished performance together. Thanks again for raising a great point and offering some solid advice. John
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 28, 2020 05:26AM)
As an amateur card guy:

1, When I rehearse alone I call it practising.

2, When I rehearse before employees or friends or whatnot, I call it rehearsing.

3, When I rehearse for a live audience, strangers, I call it performing.

While I might be doing nothing different in the three circumstances they are still three different kettles of fish.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Feb 28, 2020 08:13AM)
[quote]On Feb 28, 2020, tommy wrote:


1, When I rehearse alone I call it practising.

2, When I rehearse before employees or friends or whatnot, I call it rehearsing.

3, When I rehearse for a live audience, strangers, I call it performing.

While I might be doing nothing different in the three circumstances they are still three different kettles of fish. [/quote]


That is the same way I see it. Rehearsing is doing it exactly the way you plan to do it in the performance.
(But even then changes can be made if need be before the next performance)


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 28, 2020 09:44AM)
Fantastic the non workers have weighed in.

NONE of that answers my simple questions. So let me ask them once more so that perhaps an actual discussion can be had instead of trolling by tommy and useless platitudes spouted.

Since there are "many" (Which to my mind means a LOT.) of performers today who skip this step, and Tom went as far as to invent some who he thinks are guilty, then lets see those examples. With those examples in mind WHAT HAPPENED that went SO wrong that a full dress rehearsal would have been able to fix? HOW EXACTLY do you believe a full dress rehearsal would fix the problem?

See without these things answered it is mere pontification about a subject. Great for what it is, but in the grand scheme of the world fairly useless.

In reality I think the more egregious offense is those who skip the "tech and bump" rehearsals. (I wonder if Ray thinks the same?) I have watched guys who do bird productions and fly them over the audience. The house lights NEED to come up for the bird to get back safe. Obviously this was skipped because as it works out it never happened and the bird hit the wall. I have seen guys who don't know where the traps are EXACTLY and get things actually caught IN THEM.

I have heard vocal groups just sound HORRIBLE because the mix is not right, lights don't quite hit well and miss their spots. Not much of this gets caught in a dress rehearsal. A bump and tech is NECESSARY for the project, and usually gets done on site in many cases. In my view it is THE MOST VITAL of all the get ready rehearsals. Also it is one the performer MOST HATES. First of all it is not about them. Second of all it is tedious. Stopping in mid sentence, mid song or what not for hours upon hours while the tech crew works diligently to make you look good can be frustrating. But at this point it is not about the performer.

The crew has to bump in. If they don't, well it can be a disaster and I have seen THAT many times. The shows Tom is talking about at the magic convention are suffering from not having a bump and tech rehearsal, not from a lack of a dress rehearsal. Fact is you can do a full dress rehearsal (Which by the way is redundant.) all day and if you have not done the bump and tech stuff FIRST it is MEANINGLESS. Tom I get that you don't know what that is so you just assume it is a dress rehearsal but it is not. All the problems you speak of are done in THOSE rehearsals, not in dress. Trouble shooting is done PRIOR to the dress rehearsal.

And I don't particularly care what you think things should be called or what someone "calls" whatever. I am telling you the accepted terminology in the industry. You don't get to make up your own. You have shown a OBVIOUS lack of knowledge about the process with the few posts you have here so don't try to go back now. NOBODY has even mentioned the bump in or tech rehearsals. It is THOSE rehearsals that the problems are solved. Mind you tech crews have their own nightmare of "dry tech" runs and such, in which they figure out fades and all the cool stuff they do that goes un thanked way too often. "Wet tech" isn't used as often but it involves actors and tech.

Point is if you want to have an actual discussion about actual performance then great. But that will require you to expand your vocabulary. Most of the issues you are probably thinking of are not really going to even make it to a dress rehearsal. ESPECIALLY on TV like the Elvis example.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Feb 28, 2020 10:21AM)
Danny, a full dress rehearsal COULD FIX ANY PROBLEM that might come up. Are you saying that it wouldnít? Yes there shouldn't be any probelms at that point, but there is nothing wrong with some having a last minute test.

In one sentence you say it can help and the next you say itís worthless. Other than bragging about how much experience you have and putting others down I have no idea what you are saying. We ALL AGREE that a dress rehearsal may be for some and may not be for others. So whatís your problem?


Tom
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 28, 2020 10:28AM)
The last time I put Danny Doyle's act up here, he was so embarrassed by how bad it looked that he begged the management to have it removed before anybody else saw it, which is a real shame because that was a good example of a professional hack magician, in my humble opinion.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 28, 2020 10:50AM)
[quote]On Feb 28, 2020, TomBoleware wrote:
Danny, a full dress rehearsal COULD FIX ANY PROBLEM that might come up. Are you saying that it wouldnít? Yes there shouldn't be any probelms at that point, but there is nothing wrong with some having a last minute test.

In one sentence you say it can help and the next you say itís worthless. Other than bragging about how much experience you have and putting others down I have no idea what you are saying. We ALL AGREE that a dress rehearsal may be for some and may not be for others. So whatís your problem?


Tom [/quote]

Again full sreas rehearsal is redundant.

I am not putting you down. I'm trying to have an actual discussion with real industry terms.

I would like you to quote where I said dress rehearsal was useless or admit I never said it.

I am asking very specific questions that you won't answer for some reason. If you don't have the answer that is OK. Just say that.

I am disputing what they are used for, not if they are useful. I'm also pointing out that these other rehearsals solve most of the problems you may be thinking of so that when you have a discussion with someone who knows these things you don't look silly.

And no they can't FIX ANY problems that might come up. Otherwise nothing would ever go effing in live theater.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 28, 2020 11:05AM)
Full sreas rehearsal is not a real industry term.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 28, 2020 11:39AM)
Thank you very much for joining in, John.

Danny, this is intended as a conversation and I've stated all are welcome. If someone hasn't answered your questions, there may be a reason you're not considering.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 28, 2020 12:01PM)
[quote]On Feb 28, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
Thank you very much for joining in, John.

Danny, this is intended as a conversation and I've stated all are welcome. If someone hasn't answered your questions, there may be a reason you're not considering. [/quote]

Right. Hurt feelings doesn't help people learn does it?

So what exactly are you saying when you see "many" performers who skip this step? How many is that? What went wrong and how exactly could it have been fixed?

Laurie I am sorry but these are EASY questions that are at the heart of your claim. It seems meaningless to just pontificate and put up video of Elvis.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 28, 2020 12:01PM)
[quote]On Feb 28, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
With those examples in mind WHAT HAPPENED that went SO wrong that a full dress rehearsal would have been able to fix? HOW EXACTLY do you believe a full dress rehearsal would fix the problem?

See without these things answered it is mere pontification about a subject. Great for what it is, but in the grand scheme of the world fairly useless.

[/quote]

Perhaps useless in your mind, but that's your [i]opinion[/i], Danny. Especially considering the dress rehearsal is able to do more than point out problems. The dress rehearsal(s) allow(s) the production to get a sense of how the show will run for the audience and to be ready when the audience gets there and to be able to be a step ahead of where they would be if they hadn't run one.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 28, 2020 12:02PM)
Danny if you're wondering why this conversation isn't moving, maybe it's time to have a look in the mirror. Let it breathe a little.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 28, 2020 12:12PM)
I get that and yes it is useful.

Tom is very specifically talking about solving problems that may come up or how whoever's paid can see what they are buying and those are just false.

I think the most value such things provide ig's the performer really feeling they are into the roll more. (Which is what your derm to be saying.) It allows a sense of comfort with all the makeup, props and costuming. For theatrical production it is useful.

But I'd like to drill down to the claim shot many performers today who skip this. I'm curious as to the mistakes made, if there were shy, and how anything would actually be any different?

Again without this pontificating is just that.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 28, 2020 12:15PM)
[quote]On Feb 28, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
Danny if you're wondering why this conversation isn't moving, maybe it's time to have a look in the mirror. Let it breathe a little. [/quote]

So "all" opinions are welcome is not really what you mean at all? You only want all the opinions that do nothing to support what is being said.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 28, 2020 12:21PM)
No, Danny, I want you to recognize that your opinion is also an opinion.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 28, 2020 12:21PM)
Here's something I think Elvis addressed in his movements in American Trilogy after viewing his rehearsal tape: "The type and size of the performance space require a fundamental adaptation in the size or scale of the performance. Adjusting the scale of performance is a matter of increasing or decreasing its size without distorting the content, just as you might raise or lower the contrast or color level on a television set without changing the content of the picture. For example, an intimate scene can be played in a large theater by making an overall increase in its size and volume, as long as the behavior and attitudes of the characters continue to conform to the demands of intimacy in all other respects....

"In live theater, the problem of scale is usually a matter of this sort of enlargement. For certain intimate spaces, however, such as small full-round stages or environmental productions, you may need to [i]reduce[/i] scale so as to focus on the minute details of physical and vocal behavior.

"The most extreme instance of small-scale work is acting for the camera. Because of its closeness, the camera lens tends literally [i]to record your thought[/i]; it is usually "too much" for the camera if you do anything more than [i]think[/i] your way through a scene and allow the rest of your behavior to remain as it would be in life; some actors actually have to reduce the scale of their real-life behavior for the camera." Robert Benedetti The Actor at Work Ninth Edition. Pearson Allyn and Bacon. 2005
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 28, 2020 12:34PM)
[quote]On Feb 28, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
No, Danny, I want you to recognize that your opinion is also an opinion. [/quote]

Wonderful now you want to tell me what I do and do not realize? Talk about diminishing a person. For someone who takes offense fairly easily you do not take much care with your words do you?

So the actual theatrical terms I am using are just my "opinion"? Or do we call those agreed upon terms that were set in place long before I or believe it or not even Elvis came along?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Feb 28, 2020 12:38PM)
Danny, itís not that I canít answer all your questions; itís that you will not accept any answer I give that doesnít match your on belief. I donít know why you ask questions while pointing out that my experience is not good enough to give an answer. You value nobodys opinion that doesn't match your own.

The Elvis example is a good example that you never get so good that you canít spot something that might help the performance. As Laurie pointed out, Elvis, as good as he was, noticed a few changes that he needed to do during a dress rehearsal, had it not been any rehearsal then maybe the change would have been left out. NO the PURPOSE of the full rehearsal is not always to find mistakes, we hope it is perfect, but when its not itís a good thing because you still have time to correct it.

Let me add that we will never be so great that we canít learn from the experience of others or our own honesty. Like a famous dead man once said, ďI have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him.Ē An act, much like life itself is a never ending learning experience.

Tom
:kiss:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 28, 2020 12:40PM)
[quote]On Feb 28, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
Here's something I think Elvis addressed in his movements in American Trilogy after viewing his rehearsal tape: "The type and size of the performance space require a fundamental adaptation in the size or scale of the performance. Adjusting the scale of performance is a matter of increasing or decreasing its size without distorting the content, just as you might raise or lower the contrast or color level on a television set without changing the content of the picture. For example, an intimate scene can be played in a large theater by making an overall increase in its size and volume, as long as the behavior and attitudes of the characters continue to conform to the demands of intimacy in all other respects....

"In live theater, the problem of scale is usually a matter of this sort of enlargement. For certain intimate spaces, however, such as small full-round stages or environmental productions, you may need to [i]reduce[/i] scale so as to focus on the minute details of physical and vocal behavior.

"The most extreme instance of small-scale work is acting for the camera. Because of its closeness, the camera lens tends literally [i]to record your thought[/i]; it is usually "too much" for the camera if you do anything more than [i]think[/i] your way through a scene and allow the rest of your behavior to remain as it would be in life; some actors actually have to reduce the scale of their real-life behavior for the camera." Robert Benedetti The Actor at Work Ninth Edition. Pearson Allyn and Bacon. 2005 [/quote]

This idea gets to the HEART of why magic is SO difficult to do on television well. Back in time even more so. Magic is a series of pictures that the magician tries to control. Back in the 80's huge screen television was not the norm in the least. So people tended to look at the whole picture. It made things quite difficult. Matt Schulien HATED to do TV work. He absolutely hated to ruin the surprise for the crew and people in studio he was working for. That was where he got his "energy" for lack of a better term. To go through it over and over and over would have killed him. He lived off of reactions.

Also controlling the smaller pictures in real life was much more easily done than shrinking all of life into television.

My question though is are we discussion Television production or live production? The difference is apples and hand grenades. If it is both, then it is difficult to fold each into a single discussion. It is sort of akin to trying to talk about driving a car and driving am 18 wheel truck. They "seem" as if they are the same skill set, and it makes sense that some things translate, but in reality not many of the theories work all that well. Each is their own set of unique issues.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 28, 2020 12:59PM)
"In the live theater, the opening of the show is never the completion of your work but only the start of a new phase of the growth process. The audience contributes in many ways, perhaps most by providing the responses that complete the rhythmic shaping of the work.... Whatever their form, the audience's responses are an important element in the rhythm of the scene. So far, you have been guessing what those responses may be, and your director has been substituting for them as "an ideal audience of one," but now you have the real thing, and you can fine-tune the shape and flow of your action accordingly. This is the business of "preview" performances, or invited audiences at dress rehearsals, if you are lucky enough to have them.

"The audience's presence also causes change in the way you experience your own work. Some things you thought would work well may turn out to be too personal or obscure, whereas other things that you hadn't really noticed turn out to be powerful or worth developing further. At last you have a sure basis for judgement.

" This sure basis for judgement naturally causes you to begin economizing. You find after a time that you expend more energy during rehearsals than you do in performance and that you generally expend less and less energy as the run continues. This is not because you begin doing your part mechanically, without thought or feeling, but because you penetrate deeper and deeper to its essence; as this happens, unessential detail begins to fall away. Your performance is made more effective by distilling it to its essentials in this way; you are doing more with less." p.184-185 The Actor at Work. Robert Benedetti. Pearson Allyn and Bacon. 2005.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 28, 2020 03:10PM)
"Professional magicians have long since realised the value of being able to perform close-up magic, in addition to their stage acts....

"Magicians of the calibre of Nate Leipzig and Max Malini, exploited this type of magic to the full. Although they did stage shows, it was close-up effects which mostly built their reputations. Leipzig in particular, was the close-up magician par excellence, for even in his stage performances he employed close-up technique and with his charm and gentle personality, was able to project intimacy and friendliness over the footlights....

"Today, close-up magic is more popular than ever, as changing conditions in the mediums of entertainnment, especially the advent of Television, have brought performers closer to their audiences. Magicians are now using smaller objects because conditions permit them to be seen. Routines which used to be suitable only for a few spectators are now regular features in the acts of the professional....

"One of the most significant factors in the growth of close-up magic, is the valuable work put in by amateurs and semi-professionals, for it is from these sources that much originality has sprung." p.1-2 The Art of Close-Up Magic volume 1. compiled by Lewis Ganson. L&L Publishing 1996.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Feb 28, 2020 03:47PM)
My next question is this a discussion or are you just looking to pull quotes from books and put up Elvis videos?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 28, 2020 04:52PM)
And now for something entirely similar

[youtube]LS37SNYjg8w[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: longhaired1 (Feb 28, 2020 06:17PM)
[quote]On Feb 22, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
How many do a dress rehearsal these days? It's a very important and helpful part of the process and journey to performance. Videos welcome of either and/or. :)
[/quote]

My work consists of solo shows and directing plays, but mostly I perform and direct circus.

For plays a dress rehearsal is absolutely essential.

I do well over 100 performances with the circus during the warmer months (more this year) and fortunately it becomes like clock work after a while.

We do a few shows a year that are extravaganzas with guest artists from all over the world, and frankly a full dress rehearsal is almost always out of the question. Last year our extravaganza had 35+ people in the cast from 6 different countries including a group that flew in from the Middle East on the day of the show. In lieu of rehearsals we did extensive talk through meetings with clipboards in hand. The show went off without a hitch.

We are just starting production on a show that has close to 40 people in the cast that is a circus show with a story arc and scripted lines for some of the characters. I would love to have the luxury of a full dress rehearsal but it is just not possible. I am creating a modular rehearsal method instead that will allow us to get plenty of rehearsal time and the pieces will all fall together when they need to. The show includes 3D Video Mapped sets and numerous aerial acts. Fortunately our team is used to harnessing chaos with pretty good results.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Feb 28, 2020 08:40PM)
Here is a great old photo of circus performers Steve.

https://www.artic.edu/artworks/236292/circus-performers-rehearsal-artistenprobe

"This is what a performing arts school looks like. Cold rooms - a place for precise, tiring work."
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Feb 28, 2020 08:51PM)
[img]https://www.artic.edu/iiif/2/890cbddc-83d0-5ad5-5092-0a0438b999bb/full/843,/0/default.jpg[/img]
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 1, 2020 05:59AM)
Have you ever thought of ways of making money from rehearsals?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 1, 2020 11:50AM)
People already make money from rehearsals. They are how you get a show good enough to have people pay to see it. They are sort of "baked in" if you will.

I assume this isn't what you speak of though. I'm guessing you mean additional monkey and it is a great idea. MANY will use them as a Red Carpet add on, an additional experience to high value clients. There are lots of ways to do it

It is quite effective.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 1, 2020 12:05PM)
CHILLED PERFORMANCES

A chilled performance takes a more casual approach to noise and movement in the auditorium, but the performance itself is unchanged.

This performance is ideal for people who feel more at ease knowing they can go in and out of the auditorium during the show including people with dementia. This performance is for everybody and babes in arms are welcome, (not walking or requiring their own seat).

https://www.rsc.org.uk/as-you-like-it/assisted-performances

I was thinking of something along these lines.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Mar 1, 2020 10:57PM)
Sorry, to not have been able to respond faster. We've been in 3 different countries in 5 days. I would agree with Danny that for the most part, the tech rehearsal/Bump & Tech/Q2Q (Cue to Cue) is the MOST vital rehearsal for most of our shows in new venues where we are interfacing with a new crew. To be fair, for our touring shows I'm running now, we have a dedicated crew that travels with us so it eliminates most of the tech rehearsals. We have a dedicated TD who runs lights, sound and video FOH, Our head electrician runs shifts to follow spot for the show and I call the show backstage so it is usually flawless every night regardless of the crew we get at each venue. If you don't have that luxury (which most of us don't), then the tech rehearsal is the most critical part of coordinating the on stage artists with the backstage artists which bring the show to life. I have always refused to think in term of "artists" and "crew". Everyone I work with professionally in most cases is a true artist working with us to make us look good on stage and thus deserve our respect and understanding for the time it takes for their craft. I also understand the difference in performance scale when going from live theater to the intimacy of TV or especially film. That is a very important discussion but again, seems out of place when discussing the specific need for a "dress rehearsal".

For me, outside of magic, dress rehearsals are usually to work out costuming issues, changes, and other specific problems that could arise in that area. Magicians are frequently more costume dependent than other variety acts due to steals, loads etc. so yes, as a subset we would frequently require more time rehearsing with those pieces due to our specific needs. When working with a major theme park conglomerate that must go unmentioned, the costume characters will frequently do a "Heads & Hands" rehearsal which is just working in the heads, hands (and frequently feet) to work out the logistics and staging in a realistic way so that they get used to accommodating the idiosyncrasies of each individual character. Again, each artist has their own needs when it comes to rehearsal on the road to mastery.

Television and film are just different things all together.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 1, 2020 11:08PM)
Oh one thing I would add to that Ray is trying to figure out "wing space" and specifically with magic acts where props "live" when not in use. How do you get them on stage and off stage and such. It can be an odd dance step depending upon a 1,000 variables.

Though technically this is usually in tech rehearsal or the cue to cue. But it has not been mentioned and it is a VITAL part of live performance.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Mar 2, 2020 07:54PM)
Absolutely! Typically we work out some of that when we advance the venue but the reality is always unique once we arrive. When I was touring the illusion show we were usually in similar venues (1500 - 2500 seat theaters) which all had similar footprints. It was always interesting to me that most theaters were very "one sided" in regards to wing space. We got around this as much as possible by having the main illusions for each act preset in one of the 4 wings on each side. At intermission we would switch out the props for Act 2 so their ultimate living location didn't matter as much. In the best case scenarios, we had enough crossover space upstage of the cyc to have all the road cases laid out open. As the props came off stage, they got shuttled to the back and packed. By the start of Act 2, the first act props were packed and on the dock. We packed the show out so fast we had to remind our self not to strike on 2 show days! We had 2 sided signs on the prop tables that said either "Strike" or "Reset" that saved us a lot of embarrassment. lol... it's the little things you figure out on the road.

Just finished striking the Tokyo show last night, heading back to LA today, then out to fix the Vegas show for a few days, 2 shows back in town, a few days developing some solutions for another Disney project, then heading back out for a North American tour the end of March. Couldn't be more exhausting and fun!
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 2, 2020 10:27PM)
Yea.

I ran into a problem in a theater once that would have been HUGE if I was an illusion show. The wing space was sort of taken over by a house show! The props the set pieces and such lived there and the shows that came in during those runs had to make due. They had a problem with the storage space and such so this was the solution.

Just crap you run into when you tour the real world, not just talk about it.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 3, 2020 06:59PM)
Interesting points fellas, even though I can hardly relate to them as an amateur card guy. The only technical stuff I have to deal with is card technique. We card guys have to pay attention to them technical details but what makes it more difficult is that at the same time we also have to act. The acting side of it for me essentially means the patter, the technical side, the experiment. I get the point about the use of cloths; I am student Guy Hollingworth.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Mar 3, 2020 08:13PM)
Danny, we were once booked in a theater in Germany and when we got there, found out that it was a long run of Kinky Boots and we were booked on one of their dark nights. They had covered the full permanent set on stage in Black and we had to work around it! Another had just wrapped a huge production of Phantom and still had all the scenic elements backstage to work around.

Tommy, Shin Lim and many others have proved that cards can be theater. Imagine if you spent as much time on crafting a theatrically beautiful experience as you did on your sleights? Lighting, music, setting can all provide levels to elevate the performance from a simple card trick to something much more powerful. Never underestimate the power of a well crafted theatrical experience to raise the bar on your magic.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 3, 2020 09:27PM)
He DID spend that much on theatrical apparatus. We have yet to see if it can consistently draw money or not, but it is indeed theater.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Mar 4, 2020 01:50PM)
[quote]On Feb 23, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
When I said that I think many performers might "skip" dress rehearsal these days, I meant skip.[/quote]Are you looking at or working a show that does not run such rehearsals?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 4, 2020 02:05PM)
What is beautiful? An effect where the magician perfectly balances the various opposite forces at play is beautiful to me. One can overdo the theatrics and rehearsals come to think of it.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 4, 2020 05:11PM)
Beautiful is when Difficulty is disguised as Simplicity

Tom
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Mar 4, 2020 06:24PM)
[quote]On Mar 4, 2020, tommy wrote:
What is beautiful? An effect where the magician perfectly balances the various opposite forces at play is beautiful to me. One can overdo the theatrics and rehearsals come to think of it. [/quote]

Tommy, I'll admit that I have no idea what you're talking about as it is not at all defined. I agree that "beauty" is subjective. I just have no idea which specific opposite forces you're referring to.

As to thew second hypothesis, I'm not really sure of your POV or definitions. I would agree that coming off as too artificial in a performance isn't good but that is a false meaning of theater to me. That is in fact bad theater. When I did a LOT of intimate close up at Hollywood Magic, there was a huge amount of acting and theater involved. What needed to appear as totally spontaneous was entirely scripted and thoroughly rehearsed. It was the ability to make it seem spontaneous that is a testament to the acting involved and the credibility established, not the lack of rehearsal.

As to overdoing rehearsals, I'm not sure of your frame of reference but I would dare to say that most close up guys are under rehearsed as far as performance goes. The moves are well rehearsed but not the details and nuances that make the performance itself polished. Again, these are all elements of theater as a story teller. I will say that when I was working with J Neal years ago, he came up with a brilliant concept for professionals. He said that a pro should get a new act on stage when it was 80% ready as the final 20% could never be achieved in rehearsal but only in front of a live audience. I totally agree with this in a professional setting but I'm not sure it was what you were referring to in your post.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 5, 2020 06:27AM)
The entertainment and magic are opposite forces; the former is based on fiction, the latter is based on fact in effect. The magician creates and balances these two interrelated opposites to create a magic dilemma. The magician goes about that by first creating a fiction by proposing something incredible, next with the rational facts of his magic experiment he proves his fiction true!

Too much entertainment will drown his magic and vice versa. It is all about balancing opposites; every action of the fictional story can describe the opposite of what actually takes place. Cardini does not drop his monocle for amusement purposes only. Cardiniís act is beautiful IMHO because he perfectly balances his fiction and facts.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 5, 2020 02:34PM)
Clarity of effect?
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 5, 2020 02:54PM)
?

Francis Carlyle was a regular at the Magic Castle in Los Angeles, CA, where he specialized in coin and card magic. Ricky Jayís grandfather Max Katz told Jay, ďWhen you watch Francis Carlyle, itís not only technique and presentation. But listen to the way that he explains an effect with such clarityÖ that people go away knowing exactly whatís happened.Ē


https://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/ricky-jay-deceptive-practice-a-lineage-of-magicians-leading-to-ricky-jay/3622/

Moreover; ďCharlie was inclined to work on the specifics of one particular moveÖand the finest points and finest subtleties of this particular move,Ē says Jay. ďI probably learned from Charlie Miller more about how to refine practice Ö. Being in a room with Charlie and discussing a moveÖis one of the stranger kind of pleasures Iíve ever had in my life.Ē
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 5, 2020 03:22PM)
"Cardini covers up every steal with a carefully designed, natural gesture. The monocle drops from his eye as he registers bewilderment; in that moment a steal has been made. A laugh comes when he blows smoke through a monocle he has been wearing, without a glass: another crucial move has occurred. An imitator at the Palladium once did his act down to the last move, without realizing why certain mannerisms he had copied were a part of the technical usefulness of the originator's act."

-The World's Most Imitated Magician written by JOHN BOOTH

The dropping of the monocle from the eye as he registers bewilderment and the blowing of smoke through it, etcetera, is part of Cardiniís fictional patter, even though a word is never spoken.

As my old friend Erdnase said, "The amateur conjurer who is not naturally blessed with a "gift of the gab" should rehearse his "Patter" or monologue as carefully as his action. The simplest trick should be appropriately clothed with chicanery or plausible sophistry which apparently explains the procedure but in reality, describes about the contrary of what takes place."

Because the fiction and the facts are interrelated one had better rehearse them in detail and together as a whole.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 5, 2020 04:11PM)
My question was: Is it (Cardini's work) beautiful because it leads to clarity of effect?

I think it is. I think that's our goal and was Elvis', too, in his work, and though not having to deal with additional complexities of magic, we can see how well he accomplished it in the posted performance clips.

We're always working to get to the "essence", and that requires true precision. The muddling superfluous falls away as the essence is discovered.

[quote]On Mar 5, 2020, tommy wrote:
Because the fiction and the facts are interrelated one had better rehearse them in detail and together as a whole. [/quote]

Two sides of the same coin, or card, as it were.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 5, 2020 04:31PM)
Cardini balances the opposite forces and thus his act in perfect harmony like Elvis.

I don't know what you mean Laurie by the clarity of effect.

Clarity of effect to me means, at the climax, it must be instantly clear that something impossible has occurred.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 5, 2020 05:03PM)
I mean that the balance you speak of allows the effect to be clearly portrayed to the audience without it being undermined by visibly incongruent actions.

One of the books that I found has a discussion that may be quite helpful for any new magicians- or any magician- is Fitzkee's Magic by Misdirection. Regarding simulation and dissimulation.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 5, 2020 05:27PM)
Of course we at some point should at least acknowledge that what you are doing is ascribing motive posthumously. If you can point me to a place where either Elvis or Cardini said these things I'd enjoy reading in their own words their thoughts on these subjects.

If not then it is little more than a guess.

Nothing inherently wrong with this, but it probably should be said.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 5, 2020 05:29PM)
[quote]On Mar 5, 2020, tommy wrote:
Clarity of effect to me means, at the climax, it must be instantly clear that something impossible has occurred. [/quote]

Makes sense. Can you post video of magicians not accomplishing this? I can think of a few.

Do you also believe that "why" this impossible thing is happening is important? I believe this is where many fall short.

Also to stay on topic would the dress rehearsal have solved these issues? They seem a bit more deeply seeded than that to me.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 5, 2020 06:45PM)
[quote]On Mar 5, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:

[i]I think[/i] that's our goal and was Elvis', too, in his work [/quote]



"There is a definite story I am trying to get across in pantomime..."
[url=http://cardini.tv/Articles/18/]Cardini Genii April, 1942[/url]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 5, 2020 10:18PM)
OK on topic of dress rehearsal, the job of such an event is not to get this done. Certainly all of this work of telling a story in pantomime is done well before that process isn't it? I mean you would be rehearsing these elements. They are in place.

This is why I keep asking what went wrong with the many acts you think can benefit and how a dress rehearsal how would have helped?

You see it as being obnoxious, but it is trying to understand the root of the point you are trying to make. Unless pontication is the point. Which is fine but should be said so it is clear.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 5, 2020 10:24PM)
Well, as I said awhile back, this is intended as a conversation, not a lecture. Everything is connected and I actually take interest in a conversation which can expand in scope.

If you want to continue drawing lines go right ahead, but, again, please realize, we're allowed and may choose to step outside of them.

Here's Elvis: https://youtu.be/8HnTcIbtVns?t=135

[url=https://youtu.be/8HnTcIbtVns?t=244] because you've been really concentrating, and everybody's been working out[/url]

[url=https://youtu.be/XtuWKqfUzUE?t=2493] Well that's just me, I guess... I I just um I just do the song the way that I feel it, you know...[/url]
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 5, 2020 10:59PM)
[quote]On Mar 5, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Of course we at some point should at least acknowledge that what you are doing is ascribing motive posthumously. If you can point me to a place where either Elvis or Cardini said these things I'd enjoy reading in their own words their thoughts on these subjects.

If not then it is little more than a guess.

Nothing inherently wrong with this, but it probably should be said. [/quote]
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 5, 2020 11:23PM)
Https://youtu.be/H0QXSMgssCU?t=505
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 6, 2020 01:05AM)
[quote]On Mar 5, 2020, magicalaurie wrote:
Well, as I said awhile back, this is intended as a conversation, not a lecture. Everything is connected and I actually take interest in a conversation which can expand in scope.

If you want to continue drawing lines go right ahead, but, again, please realize, we're allowed and may choose to step outside of them.

Here's Elvis: https://youtu.be/8HnTcIbtVns?t=135

[url=https://youtu.be/8HnTcIbtVns?t=244] because you've been really concentrating, and everybody's been working out[/url]

[url=https://youtu.be/XtuWKqfUzUE?t=2493] Well that's just me, I guess... I I just um I just do the song the way that I feel it, you know...[/url] [/quote]

I am REALLY just trying to figure out what you are saying in your first post. You give a lot of excuses for NOT sharing what you mean, but no real conversation. Mostly Elvis links and pontification.

Is the question of what one of the "many" you have seen who NEED dress rehearsal could have learned HAD they done one such a horrible question? I would think that it would follow naturally from the first post. How is it drawing a line? For someone who invites conversation you seem to want to shut it down at every turn unless it is 100% in line with what you want to preach about.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 6, 2020 04:10PM)
[quote]On Mar 6, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:

I am REALLY just trying [/quote]

I think that's where you're stuck, Danny- showing everyone how hard you're REALLY just trying. And I'm becoming convinced you intend to continue doing that alone, regardless of the content I post.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 6, 2020 10:34PM)
Right. Elvis fangirl links and pointless pontificating it is.

It just might be what caused the apparent dismissal of your alleged experience in page one that upset you so.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 6, 2020 11:10PM)
The beautiful thing about fiction is that it rules one's very soul because one's heart one can't control because it's all o-only make believe. :)
Message: Posted by: Kanawati (Mar 7, 2020 02:51AM)
Page 56 of Maximum Entertainment 2.0 by Ken Weber makes the point for me. For those with a different edition it is paragraph six under Master Your Craft. He doesnít mention full tech checks at the performing venue in this section but he does talk about complete rehearsal (as distinct to practice) of an act from start to finish with appropriate costume. My understanding is that his advice is being directed to ďanyĒ magician that performs for an audience. The whole book is obviously for magicians that perform. My point is that there are numerous performers who arenít professionals. They could be hobbyists, amateurs, non workers, but if they are out there performing they are ďperformers.Ē Are there ďprofessionalsĒ who skip dress rehearsals? I have no idea. But are there ďperformersĒ who skip dress rehearsals or donít know the value of some form of dress rehearsal? I think so. The Cafť has over 69,000 members and the vast majority are non workers like me. My own experience informed me that when Laurie wrote ďperformerĒ she was including me, a non worker in that definition. Laurie then explained that performers did not just refer to professionals. As a non worker, the advice Iíve received on the Cafť from workers and non workers and those in between and from those with training and experience in allied industries has often been very valuable as I try and lift my game. Laurie didnít need to hear it from me the first time but again thank you Laurie for bringing up a great topic and making a very useful point that many ďperformersĒ can benefit from. John
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 7, 2020 04:35AM)
A rehearsal for me normally consists of a spot of after-dinner fun. I try to invite one who knows, who might offer some valuable advice.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 7, 2020 12:01PM)
I donít think Laurie could have picked a better example than Elvis for us all to learn from. Many have studied his life to improve their own performance work as well as their own personal lives. Elvis touched and continues to teach many beyond just the music industry.

A few Fans that Elvis touched:
https://elvisdaily.com/2017/10/12/15-famous-fans-talks-about-elvis/

Five Influence Lessons I learned From Elvis Presley
https://blog.kevineikenberry.com/leadership-supervisory-skills/five-influence-lessons-i-learned-from-elvis-presley/

10 Practical Life Lessons from Elvis
https://medium.com/@narecus/10-practical-life-lessons-from-elvis-ddb5f904062e

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 7, 2020 01:07PM)
Picked Elvis to help improve their lives?

HILARIOUS!
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 7, 2020 01:17PM)
Itís too bad Danny you not an Elvis fan, you could learn a lot.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 7, 2020 02:23PM)
Actually I am an Elvis fan Tom. My research indicted in his personal life he married a 14 year old when he was 24. He was abusive, cheated on his wife, went after another 14 year old when he was in his late 30's, and so forth.

What about this should we learn from Tom? Go ahead defend it for me. PLEASE defend it. I know that your game is to disagree with me no matter what. I am saying the way he treated women was disgusting and there is nothing to learn except for him being a bad example. Disagree. Go ahead.

(I am actually shocked Laurie would be such a fan of a person who acted the way he did personally. If he did it today my guess is he would be reviled by many.)

Defend the drug abuse for us Tom. Go ahead.

Sad part for you Tom is I AM an Elvis fan. But I am a fan of the person who lived in reality, not the guy who lives in the recesses of fandom and their redefinition of history. Go ahead Tom. Defend it all for me.

https://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/music/elvis-presley-fiancee-ginger-alden-details-king-bad-temper-secluded-life-new-memoir-article-1.1906104

"One night, when she couldn't stay awake to keep reading with him, she saw one of the magnums in action ó or rather heard it. A deafening roar woke her up. Elvis had fired the pistol at the wall over the headboard.

He explained that he had asked her to get him some more yogurt and she hadn't jumped to. "It was an attention-getter," he explained."

Sure Tom LOTS to learn from his as his private life goes huh? Can't WAIT to see you defend it for us.

And for the record Tom YOU DRAGGED this discussion into the swamp once again in an effort to disagree with me. YOU brought up how great he was personally and such. So later when you try to spin this don't forget that.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 7, 2020 02:38PM)
We can learn from the bad too. Learning what not to do is a good lesson. Donít you think?

I prefer to look for the good in those who have passed on and not waste time on the bad.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 7, 2020 03:07PM)
Great way not to repeat history.

Great. Fanboy perspective is really helpful.

And Tom I didn't need anyone to serve as an example to teach me not to abuse people, not take drugs or shoot guns at others and statutory rape is a bad thing.

If those are all things you need guidance to help you with then I guess that is what it is.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 7, 2020 03:17PM)
Thank you, John.

"There was always a cleanness, a directness, about most of Edward's magic. Much was, perhaps, beyond the ordinary conjurer. But Edward had stripped it to the essentials." p.21-22 The Magic of Edward Victor's Hands. Compiled and Written by Rae Hammond. Published by Richard Kaufman and Alan Greenberg. 1995.

"George Blake recalled that during the run of Edward's first pantomime at the Theatre Royal, Leeds, in 1937-38, he never turned away a visitor, and consequently he didn't have much time to himself during the many hours he was in the theater, with twice-daily performances for most of the three-month run. These visits kept him in touch with other magic, because in those days the Yorkshire area seemed rich in magical talent and Edward received stimulation from the minds of such as Dr. H. Park Shackleton, Roland Winder, Albert Verity, D'Albert, Bill Bailey and the two (unrelated) Waddiloves. On the other hand, these numerous sessions gave him little time to practice and George recalled Edward getting thoroughly lost when presenting a "Spelling Bee" trick at a meeting of the Yorkshire Magic Club in Bradford. Edward confessed afterwards to George that he thought he remembered all the complicated routine, and hadn't bothered to run through it first." p.25 The Magic of Edward Victor's Hands. Compiled and Written by Rae Hammond. Published by Richard Kaufman and Alan Greenberg. 1995.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 7, 2020 04:11PM)
Priscilla Beaulieu was 21 years old when she married Elvis Presley.

[youtube]k1uRadi9C7E[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 7, 2020 04:46PM)
Really? You want to defend this behavior?

OK when did they meet? Yea when they were married. More fangirl spin.

Are you saying he did not have a need for young girls? That he wasn't abusive?

Sort of puts everything you want to claim about how women are treated in perspective. Treating women poorly seems to be alright just so you are an icon and sing nice. Kind of disingenuous of you.

https://www.africanglobe.net/headlines/leaving-graceland-elvis-presley-notorious-pedophile/?amp
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 7, 2020 05:37PM)
What else would you like to say, Danny? Is there something you need?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 7, 2020 06:15PM)
Oh now it is me. TOM brought up how he is such a great personal roll model, I simply mentioned how maybe he isn't and YOU defend and make excuses and suddenly it is me who is an issue?

Why is it SO HARD for you guys to talk about the truth?

Might have been easier to talk with us about our questions huh?

I didn't bring this alleged conversation here, Tom did. Don't push it on me for simply introducing the TRUTH into the discussion. Though I see that is not high in your priority list from page one.

You should have said that this was all fangirl pontificating and all you wanted was amateur responders that 100% lined up with your notions.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 7, 2020 07:22PM)
[quote]On Mar 7, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Actually I am an Elvis fan Tom.

[/quote]

Danny, how could you be a fan if he is as bad as you say? Do you agree with his bad side?
Or did you only point the bad out to make me look bad? I never said I approved of everything he did.
You do know he did many good deeds? I could list many good things he did, but you don't seem to care about those.

Iím a fan because Iím able to look past his bad habits and find the good. Maybe you need to try that with people.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 7, 2020 09:53PM)
Tom. I am a fan of his music. I am NOT a fan of him and will not look past the way he abused. You are. Great. I guess once someone dies nothing they did while alive mattered.

You and Laurie are entitled to look past statutory rape and abuse and drug issues and so forth. That is who you want to be. Go ahead. Don't try to make me believe the fanboy bs.
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Mar 8, 2020 03:28AM)
Sooooo, because Elvis was a pedophile I should do a dress rehearsal or not? I'm just so confused now.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 8, 2020 03:35AM)
:)

Elvis was a spiritualist, among other things. There is a dark and a light side to everything. Magic is the relationship between the two opposites, as waking and sleeping states briefly combine to form the door to the hypnogogic state.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 8, 2020 07:26AM)
[quote]On Mar 8, 2020, Ray Pierce wrote:
Sooooo, because Elvis was a pedophile I should do a dress rehearsal or not? I'm just so confused now. [/quote]

Thus the miracle of talking with Tom.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 8, 2020 08:31AM)
Danny, I havenít said ONE bad word about Elvis. It was YOU that started talking about things written in a controversial book. And you know it.

You just upset because you wanted to be the king off this topic from the start. (Go back and read all your disagreements from the start)

You need professioanl help Danny. The world would be a different place for you.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 8, 2020 08:44AM)
[quote]On Mar 7, 2020, TomBoleware wrote:
I donít think Laurie could have picked a better example than Elvis for us all to learn from. Many have studied his life to improve their own performance work as well as their own personal lives. Elvis touched and continues to teach many beyond just the music industry.

A few Fans that Elvis touched:
https://elvisdaily.com/2017/10/12/15-famous-fans-talks-about-elvis/

Five Influence Lessons I learned From Elvis Presley
https://blog.kevineikenberry.com/leadership-supervisory-skills/five-influence-lessons-i-learned-from-elvis-presley/

10 Practical Life Lessons from Elvis
https://medium.com/@narecus/10-practical-life-lessons-from-elvis-ddb5f904062e

Tom [/quote]

So you didn't write this?

Yes Tom make a medical diagnosis. Yet ANOTHER thing you are totally unqualified to do. Go figure.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 8, 2020 08:47AM)
[quote]On Mar 8, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Mar 7, 2020, TomBoleware wrote:
I donít think Laurie could have picked a better example than Elvis for us all to learn from. Many have studied his life to improve their own performance work as well as their own personal lives. Elvis touched and continues to teach many beyond just the music industry.

A few Fans that Elvis touched:
https://elvisdaily.com/2017/10/12/15-famous-fans-talks-about-elvis/

Five Influence Lessons I learned From Elvis Presley
https://blog.kevineikenberry.com/leadership-supervisory-skills/five-influence-lessons-i-learned-from-elvis-presley/

10 Practical Life Lessons from Elvis
https://medium.com/@narecus/10-practical-life-lessons-from-elvis-ddb5f904062e

Tom [/quote]

[/quote]

Yes I posted that. Did you read the links?

Tom
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 8, 2020 08:48AM)
It is difficult to understand how Elvis can be accused of statutory rape for meeting a girl when she was 14 and marrying her when she was 21, especially in a country like the USA, where over the past 15 years more than 200,000 minors married in the USA, and in Tennessee girls as young as 10 were married in 2001.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 8, 2020 08:50AM)
I agree Tommy. Also, Times were much different back in the 50ís than they are today.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 8, 2020 08:55AM)
[quote]On Mar 8, 2020, TomBoleware wrote:
[quote]On Mar 8, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
[quote]On Mar 7, 2020, TomBoleware wrote:
I donít think Laurie could have picked a better example than Elvis for us all to learn from. Many have studied his life to improve their own performance work as well as their own personal lives. Elvis touched and continues to teach many beyond just the music industry.

A few Fans that Elvis touched:
https://elvisdaily.com/2017/10/12/15-famous-fans-talks-about-elvis/

Five Influence Lessons I learned From Elvis Presley
https://blog.kevineikenberry.com/leadership-supervisory-skills/five-influence-lessons-i-learned-from-elvis-presley/

10 Practical Life Lessons from Elvis
https://medium.com/@narecus/10-practical-life-lessons-from-elvis-ddb5f904062e

Tom [/quote]

[/quote]

Yes I posted that. Did you read the links?

Tom [/quote]

Again Tom bury your head to the truth. Go ahead. Defend drug abuse, rape culture and physical abuse of women. If that is your stance cool.

You said he was a great personal roll model. YOU started that distraction. I simply pointed out there is another viewpoint. YOU as always just can't stop. You just MUST to have the last word.

Whether you care or not these things happened. They are a matter of record. You may choose to overlook them. No problem. Quit trying to make others do so.

Stop now. Or is your last word obsession so overwhelming that you can't?
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 8, 2020 08:56AM)
[quote]On Mar 8, 2020, TomBoleware wrote:
I agree Tommy. Also, Times were much different back in the 50ís than they are today.

Tom [/quote]

Yea way back in the 50's rape was ok.

Yes in the 90's things were different when Cosby was drugging women. His lawyer should have used that defense!

By that standard Manson should be free.

How ridiculous.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 8, 2020 09:00AM)
The youngest boy to marry was an 11-year-old who married a 27-year-old woman in Tennessee in 2006.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 8, 2020 09:24AM)
Danny, where did I say, ďpersonal roll modeĒ I said many studied him in order to improve their own PERFORMANCE WORK as well as their own personal life. It was pointed out in the links that he left us with many practical Life Lessons. NOBODY is saying rape or drug use is ok. Who said that? NOBODY DID. It's you just making stuff up.

Itís ok if you donít like Elvis, just say so and move on. Don't come in pretending you do and start talking about stuff in a book written years after he died. Shame On You.

Thank You Very Much!


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 8, 2020 10:11AM)
Yes their own personal life. He is NOT the best example for that Tom. His personal life consisted of a serious drug habit, at the very least inappropriate relationships with very young girls when he was much older, and documented abuse if women.

Not a person I'd be taking many life lessons from. Your mileage may vary. Apparently you idolize this behavior. That is up to you.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 8, 2020 10:51AM)
Apart from the sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll did you enjoy the show?
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Mar 9, 2020 12:33PM)
After writing out the routine, the sides, tape marks, ...there's nothing like getting notes from a director.
Watching a video of a production and taking your own notes is not even close.

Learning can be as slow and unpleasant as you like. But there are sweetened examples to watch including -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_Goes_Wrong
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 9, 2020 04:19PM)
[quote]On Mar 7, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Actually I am an Elvis fan Tom.

... I AM an Elvis fan. But I am a fan of the person who lived in reality[/quote]

[quote]On Mar 7, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Tom. I am a fan of his music. I am NOT a fan of him[/quote]

His music is him. [I]His[/I] music came from [I]his[/I] heart, body, and soul.

[youtube]g_9yeMPZVWA[/youtube]

I love Elvis Presley. That simple. We are inherently equal and worthy, all of us, every one.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 9, 2020 04:40PM)
Actually Laurie no. HIS music was written by others. Tell me again how it came ferrin HIS heart and his music was HIM.

He was a performer and took others music to heights usually that they did not. But it is simply wrong to claim it came from his heart. He was not a songwriter or composer.

Sorry for insisting the truth be sprinkled into this conversation. It is just possible you wear blinders. We all have personal blind spots. I guess I should say I have them as I can't speak for all.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 9, 2020 06:30PM)
Danny I donít think she said he wrote the songs. True Elvis didnít write his own songs, but I agree with her that he did sing from the heart. That has nothing to do with who wrote it. Relating to the words is key, thatís how he owned it. He understood the song well enough that everybody thought he had written it. The songs fit.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 9, 2020 06:41PM)
Nice spin. Totally untrue. She called it HIS music. It wasn't. It was others music. He PERFORMED others music. I don't care where he sang from.

NOBODY thought he wrote My Way out Bridge Over Troubled Water.

Just stop with silly excuses. The truth is so much easier.
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 9, 2020 06:52PM)
LOL. Owning a song simply means it fits you perfectly.

Danny you donít have a clue.

We get you hate Elvis and this whole topic, so why canít you just move on and stop the nonsense.


Tom
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 9, 2020 08:17PM)
Putting words in my mouth didn't work.

You can move on, just stop posting. But you CAN'T DO THAT. You just can't help yourself you have to get the last word.

Please tell us about you vast experience in the music scene Tom. Go on make up something really quick.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Mar 9, 2020 08:20PM)
Elvis was... and before him there were bobby-soxers swooning over a young Frank Sinatra.

Let's agree that Elvis learned from his dress rehearsal. Feedback is useful for those who can and choose to learn. What of it?
Message: Posted by: TomBoleware (Mar 9, 2020 08:33PM)
I agree Jonathan, Elvis learned from his dress rehearsals.

Tom
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Mar 9, 2020 09:31PM)
[quote]On Feb 25, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
I ask about experience when I have these "food for thought" discussions. It matters. You can't just imagine it into existence, it has to happen and there is NO substitute.[/quote] Agreed Danny. :ohyes:
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 9, 2020 09:44PM)
WONDERFUL. Elvis learned from his dress rehearsal. Though this wasn't the point of the OP now was it? So nobody has to scroll back to page one here it is cut and pasted.

" How many do a dress rehearsal these days? It's a very important and helpful part of the process and journey to performance. Videos welcome of either and/or. Smile

I'd like to start with an illustration from Elvis Presley's Aloha Concert, "final performance" of which was broadcast live worldwide in 1973. He filmed a dress rehearsal concert which is also known as the Alternate Aloha Concert. See the step up from the dress rehearsal to the live broadcast. That step up (raising stakes) was something I was keenly aware of when we went from dress rehearsal to performance when I studied Theatre Arts in College. I think Dress Rehearsal is something that many performers might skip these days, and it shows. Here's Elvis:

The arrogant presumption is that "I think Dress Rehearsal is something that many performers might skip these days, and it shows."

When asked the very simple question as to whom she is speaking of there is deafening silence. When asked what could have been gleaned from this process we get more fangirl Elvis links and Tom jumping in with nothing to add. And then get told how much conversation is welcome.

Now it just degrades into Elvis mania. Fine no problem but don't disguise it as "food for thought" for it is not even close. It is pontification and nothing more.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 10, 2020 12:47AM)
There's an apology at the bottom of page 1 for the arrogant presumption, Danny.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Mar 10, 2020 01:17AM)
[quote]On Feb 25, 2020, Dannydoyle wrote:
Laurie. I think you are adding a tone to my post that I did not intend and for my part in that let me extend an apology. I do not always take the care I should when posting, I just sort of post it thinking people get what I am thinking. Again I am sorry and please allow me to try to reset this to take the heat out as this is a cool topic. Fair enough?

I am one who believes a person's point of view is informed by their experience. Without a point of view just having an opinion is not really that big of a deal to me. I have many opinions about my medical care, but all of them pale in comparison to a trained medical professional, and then those are on a sliding scale according to their own experience. So experience REALLY matters. It does not necessarily mean anyone has to be "wrong" just because they lack experience, but it does come into play when trying to see a person's viewpoint.

Certainly in an artistic setting such as a performance experience should matter shouldn't it? I mean if you are out there every night working at it for 30 years that simply MUST mean something right? Along those lines I just did a dress rehearsal for an Off Broadway show yesterday and the sound and light crew was AMAZING. They brought THEIR ART to the process! For I believe what each does to bring a show to life is art in and of itself. Every discipline you mentioned above IS an art form and worthy of recognition as is every position.

Understand my view is underpinned simply by experience. 30 years of out there doing it for the public is the viewpoint. When you speak of the "fine tuning" Elvis did that was in my view exactly what I was talking about. "We learn our craft from each other, and our art from our audience". Giving away that cape in the show, all the refinements made are them learning the ART. To me this is the difference that comes forth when a thing is done at a high level so many times! It is the beauty of experience. It is why it can NOT be overlooked and should be considered. It is why I ask about experience when I have these "food for thought" discussions. It matters. You can't just imagine it into existence, it has to happen and there is NO substitute. If it came off as dismissive please allow me to apologize once more. It is not meant to be. [/quote]

There was also THIS apology that you chose to ignore also.
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Mar 10, 2020 01:48AM)
Look closer.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Mar 10, 2020 05:33AM)
"Once the amateur's naive approach and humble willingness to learn fades away, the creative spirit of good photography dies with it. Every professional should remain always in his heart an amateur."

Alfred Eisenstaedt
Message: Posted by: magicalaurie (Apr 29, 2020 03:37PM)
Here's an example from my own repertoire.

I rehearsed this in full dress for a while leading up to this performance. I walked to the venue, so was well warmed up, though early, upon arrival.

Somewhere in there before showtime, someone asked me if I wanted to test the chair I'd be using, but I declined, which was a mistake, since the chair height in relation to the [I]fixed[/I] Mic height affects the angle of the guitar fretboard.

When the angle of the fretboard is unfamiliar, the grip may shift to inaccurate finger placement (for me, usually too high on the fretboard), resulting in missing the chord. Looking at the fretboard to correct or ensure correct placement turns face away from the Mic.

30 years of performance could iron that out, but I learned this song a year ago, I think it was. (I'd heard it before but only discovered its name and chords & lyric variations- which I adjusted ;) - last year)

So, the second song here was affected by an unnecessary lack of preparation, fwiw.

[youtube]ILVFHbyTlkg[/youtube]
Message: Posted by: Ray Pierce (Apr 29, 2020 07:24PM)
I would definitely stipulate that for most live performances... the less you work, the more important the "Dress Rehearsal" could be.
Message: Posted by: Dannydoyle (Apr 30, 2020 01:03PM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2020, Ray Pierce wrote:
I would definitely stipulate that for most live performances... the less you work, the more important the "Dress Rehearsal" could be. [/quote]

Absolutely.
Message: Posted by: Luke Wolf (Jul 11, 2020 08:47AM)
[quote]On Apr 29, 2020, Ray Pierce wrote:
I would definitely stipulate that for most live performances... the less you work, the more important the "Dress Rehearsal" could be. [/quote]

Agreed.

Also, I've noticed that after a while, the simple fact of dressing up would put me "in the zone" and made it easier to recall my text, my moves, etc. Almost like a pavlovian thing. At the end of of the show, I would keep my suit on for as long as needed (meeting clients, writing feedbacks, etc.). I don't know how much of psychology it involves or if I'm just making stuff up for myself, but I noted something had changed!