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Topic: Difference Between Gambler/Hustlers and Demonstrators
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (May 27, 2020 01:49PM)
I learned at a young age, while I was studying magic and Erdnase, that much of what I read in books about gambling ploys and manipulative moves was oftentimes incomplete, inaccurate and sometimes total nonsense. However, to put things in context regarding the difference between hustling and doing demonstrations, let me give an example. It was a motion picture that turned on the light bulb in my head. It was a western movie called [b]The Lawman[/b] starring Burt Lancaster

In this motion picture Lancaster was a hard-nosed lawman who brought back those he chased either dead or alive. Did not really matter one way or the other but he always tried to give his opponents a choice.

In any event, he travels to this western town looking for a few cowboys to bring back for trial and of course his reputation precedes him. One of the sub-plots is there is a young cowboy in town who is extremely good with a six gun. He is great shot and has a very fast draw. Of course, he is just itching to test himself against Lancaster.

This pending confrontation pretty much comes to a head in a scene where Lancaster is cooking his meal over a fire in the woods. He spots the young cowboy who evidently is following him and invites him over to the fire to enjoy some food. Finally, during the course of their conversation Lancaster says something like this:

"I know you are itching to try me, to see how good you are with a gun. I know you are a very good shot, maybe better that I am. Maybe you are even faster on the draw than I. But you are a cowboy. You use your six gun to shoot rabbits and snakes, for target practice with bottles and cans and to practice your fast draw. But you have never faced another man in a gunfight, where you could be killed, and you have never killed another man, and that is the difference tween us. I am a killer of men. Plain and simple. That is my edge and that is all the edge I need."

Read between the lines and I suggest that is the difference between a gambler/hustler and a demonstrator on another scale, although Iím sure this will irk Bones to no end.

However I thought this story might be interesting to some on this BB and perhaps turn on a light bulb or two. :yippee:
Message: Posted by: Fove52 (May 27, 2020 03:23PM)
Surely, that will aid anybody who doesn't fully understand the differences. Surely, but... there are a few dead bulbs around here. lol
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (May 29, 2020 02:14PM)
[quote]On May 27, 2020, Cagliostro wrote:
........although Iím sure this will irk Bones to no end.
[/quote]
No, it doesn't irk me in the slightest Cag - if only because what you've posted is true.
Your movie analogy is a bit obtuse, but easy to parse.

For the same general sentiment, I prefer [i]"if you have to say you is, you ain't".[/i]
Message: Posted by: happy003 (May 29, 2020 11:59PM)
Difference between Hustlers/Gamblers and Demonstrators is this....... If you feel the need to frequently visit the gambling spot, you are the latter.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (May 30, 2020 11:36AM)
[quote]On May 29, 2020, happy003 wrote:
Difference between Hustlers/Gamblers and Demonstrators is this....... If you feel the need to frequently visit the gambling spot, you are the latter. [/quote]

The thing is though, nobody has ever suggested that the Gambling Spot was either intended for, or populated by - hustlers.
There have been a few "real" cheats, or practicing disciples of a specific short con (despite the occasional arguing focused on who "is", and who "ain't") like Top'n'Ball, Memph, DOC, Card Cheat ... and a few others, but they were around only for a relatively short period of time before leaving for reasons known only to them.

This forum seemed only ever intended for folks who liked to discuss things less related to magic, and more related to gambling and hustling with cards and dice.
There was never any indication from the owner of the forum that the Gambling Spot was intended to discuss the most cutting edge hustling and cheating techniques, indeed as Cag frequently points out, nobody here is a professional hustler currently plying their trade and willing to share the most common cheating and hustling techniques as practiced in 2020.

So folks discuss what they know ... some old techniques, some techniques that blend over into demo and sleights with cards and dice, as well as some history and attempts to frame that history in a way that makes for entertaining reading, and hopefully promotes interesting discussion (as opposed to argument and bluster).

Folks get wound up in a couple of ways ... first, in assuming that participants in this forum are in any way claiming to represent themselves as experts in contemporary cheating and hustling practice and technique, and second - in confusing discussion of straight up magic tricks with the general intent of forum to stick with primarily gambling and hustling related topics (demo or otherwise).

But overlaying some sort of intrinsic belief that participants in the Gambling Spot are somehow claiming to be something they're not (simply by participating in the forum) is a complete and utter fabrication, and it's a fabrication that, over time ... many tire of, especially when the reality of the situation is that nobody here is actually portraying themselves as an expert in contemporary (as in last decade or two) cheating and hustling techniques.
Nobody posting to the Gambling Spot is claiming to be anything other than what they actually are, which is simply a participant in an internet forum which focuses very broadly on gambling, hustling, and demonstrating aspects of that subject matter to laymen and other interested parties.

But to portray the Gambling Spot as a group of fundamentally uneducated wannabe's is a complete Straw Man.
[i][b]Nobody here is claiming proprietary knowledge[/b][/i] ... and save the occasional request for proprietary information from somebody new, participants in the Gambling Spot don't make it a habit of even asking for proprietary information ... nobody here wants or asks about anybody elses "secret" hustling techniques.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (May 30, 2020 03:40PM)
@Bones: Excellent post of May 29, 2020 above and I agree with everything you said. I fact it is one of the best posts I have read on this forum.
Message: Posted by: 5ggg (May 31, 2020 10:01AM)
I think a lot of what DOC used to say is BS, but what do I know
Message: Posted by: Scodischarge (Jun 1, 2020 04:03AM)
A very well-written post, Cag, thank you for sharing! Might clear things up for some of the magicians and would-be hustlers on the forum.
Message: Posted by: DaveM (Aug 6, 2020 12:10PM)
I saved almost all of the videos that DOC shared.

Some of the moves were quite impressive to MY eyes, but then again I imagine that other viewing angles around the table might reveal some of the work.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Aug 12, 2020 07:07PM)
Well all I can add to this post is one category Cag left out but just mentioned by Steve Forte that now applies to me. Hobbyist. I used to be a hustler/gambler but gave it up several years ago when I got too old.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Aug 14, 2020 05:30PM)
Sometimes the only difference between a demonstrator and a hustler is which side of the camera he is on.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Aug 14, 2020 06:18PM)
[quote]On May 29, 2020, happy003 wrote:
Difference between Hustlers/Gamblers and Demonstrators is this....... If you feel the need to frequently visit the gambling spot, you are the latter. [/quote]

The difference? One has balls and the rest don't....
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Aug 14, 2020 06:19PM)
[quote]On May 31, 2020, 5ggg wrote:
I think a lot of what DOC used to say is BS, but what do I know [/quote]

Is it?
:snail:
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Aug 15, 2020 06:17PM)
[quote]On May 29, 2020, Mr. Bones wrote:
[quote]On May 27, 2020, Cagliostro wrote:
........although Iím sure this will irk Bones to no end.
[/quote]

No, it doesn't irk me in the slightest Cag - if only because what you've posted is true.
Your movie analogy is a bit obtuse, but easy to parse.

For the same general sentiment, I prefer [i]"if you have to say you is, you ain't." [/i] [/quote]

Cute...but not entirely accurate.

This of course refers to those hobbyists/demonstrators who boast about their prowess, ability, knowledge even though they have never "been there." There is a ton of BS among demonstrators and hobbyists regarding their ability, expertise, what they could do if they really wanted to. Generally, you can tell by what they write and a demonstration of what they show. Usually a demonstration of their ability shows me they have never been there. No matter how skillfully the demonstration performed, it becomes pretty obvious they are simply demonstrators.

The first tell is doing the demonstration on video to begin with. An active pro does not do that nonsense (that is in the province of hobbyists) and the second is the limitation of what they are showing: usually a move in isolation without all the other necessary ingredients that would make it fly and get the money. Or the move is fancy, pretty or skillful looking with an abundance to cuts and shuffles, snaps, pops, flips and extraneous moves, etc., that would wake the dead. In the real world of the gaming tables, art is in the concealment of art. For the demonstrator, art is to be flaunted with all manner of pretty extras and overkill to impress the observer with the practitioner's skill and ability---which actually mean little or nothing at the gaming tables.

However, among actual hustlers, talking with another hustler and looking to work with each other, then they will say and show that "they Is." They have to show that they have the ability to get the money or that their reputation precedes them in that regard. That is their reputation or others vouching for them demonstrate that they have gotten the money.

"If you say you is, you ain't" is more applicable to hobbyists talking to another hobbyist or to layman. Since they are for the most part basically magicians or magician/demonstrators, what they say is considered poetic license and they can lay down whatever BS they want to in order to create the "illusion" about themselves and their persona, i.e., expert gambler, protection expert, foremost gambling authority, confidant of top hustlers worldwide and so on...any nonsense they wish to convey.

"So if you say you is, you ain't" definition does not necessary apply in the hustling community, although quite frankly these guys do not have to boast to solidly their credentials. Their reputation usually precedes.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Aug 16, 2020 12:08AM)
Cag, you keep saying that it's only braggarts, hobbyists and demonstrators that post in The Gambling Spot claiming to have superior skills and knowledge.
Further, that anybody posting on the Gambling Spot who [i]claims[/i] superior knowledge is full of B.S.

Well, on that point amigo, [b]I agree with you 100%.[/b]
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Aug 16, 2020 10:41AM)
[quote]On Aug 15, 2020, Mr. Bones wrote:
Cag, you keep saying that it's only braggarts, hobbyists and demonstrators that post in The Gambling Spot claiming to have superior skills and knowledge.
Further, that anybody posting on the Gambling Spot who [i]claims[/i] superior knowledge is full of B.S. [/quote]

I don't believe that is what is being said. Rather it is an interpretation of what you think is being said.

No matter, it accomplished the purpose of making the post initially. It got some commentary on this sleepy if not almost dead BB.

Just wanted to wake up some of the dead here.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Aug 17, 2020 06:11PM)
Cag I think this bb is sleepy is that most are studying Steve Fortes new book.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Aug 29, 2020 10:22PM)
I think the level of anonymity in the forum is vastly overrated ... and folks should definitely post as if they were posting under their actual names.
The name in question has been posted in this very forum multiple times over the years, and at one point in time, in this very forum, the party was asked outright if they knew "who they were"!

I know there are old timers in the forum (some still here, some having left over the years) who know who I am, and I post as if any one of them might phone me tomorrow to call me out on something I might have said.
Those who believe they're posting in an anonymous vacuum are probably, at some point, going to be in for a surprise.
Message: Posted by: 5ggg (Sep 1, 2020 08:11PM)
Bones - "Nobody posting to the Gambling Spot is claiming to be anything other than what they actually are"

you can't be serious with that one.... A few of us have been around for 10 years or more, and have seen all the names go through here. I can only guess one or two of them were claiming to be what they aren't. Maybe its me
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Sep 1, 2020 11:58PM)
I guess if you're counting Blackeagle, then "yeah" ... there are a few folks who have passed through who were claiming to be something they were quite obviously [b]not[/b]

But in general terms, I'm not talking about casual visitors to the forum claiming they have a guaranteed dice setting system ... I'm talking about the long time regulars being pretty much exactly what they (we) say we are - the regulars who've been here as long as you and I have been here.
In that crowd, nobody is claiming to be something they're not (which was my point).
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 2, 2020 09:47AM)
What is the difference between nobody here claiming to be something they are not and somebody here denying to be something they are?
Message: Posted by: 5ggg (Sep 2, 2020 12:36PM)
[quote]On Sep 1, 2020, Mr. Bones wrote:
I guess if you're counting Blackeagle, then "yeah" ... there are a few folks who have passed through who were claiming to be something they were quite obviously [b]not[/b]

But in general terms, I'm not talking about casual visitors to the forum claiming they have a guaranteed dice setting system ... I'm talking about the long time regulars being pretty much exactly what they (we) say we are - the regulars who've been here as long as you and I have been here.
In that crowd, nobody is claiming to be something they're not (which was my point). [/quote]


ahh, I see your point now. my fault, I saw it a different way
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Sep 2, 2020 11:23PM)
For nostalgiaís sake a list of games I used tod hustle at. Texas high low holdem, Texas tank and 9 ball pool. Did not like dice.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 3, 2020 02:19AM)
It is all about the circumstances as Steve Forte says. The circumstances are that which tell us why our ancestors did the things they did. The circumstances make stories interesting, give context to what and so on. What where the circumstances of Texas high low holdem, Texas tank and 9 ball pool? When, where? Where the games self-dealt homes games, pool hall games, or what?
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Sep 3, 2020 01:09PM)
A lot fo the time in pool halls. I was 15 years old when I learned from another hustler the mcdougal riffle cull and stack where he could stack a flush or straight in 2 riffles. Poker games flourished in pool halls and even in barber shops many home games dealers choice pot limit 5, 10, 10, 20 and 25 50. I watched and learned. At 16 I started working at a carnival hustling people on the midway and playing cards off hours.by the time I was 22 I started playing in a lot of 5-10 games I had read about top players playing at the golden nugget in Las Vegas. I made a trip played straight for 2 days and nights no sleep but I left the table a winner. Unfortunately those days are over. I played online for a while but now I only like to learn and just to see if I can execute the moves and learn a few new moves I havenít played in live games since 1985. Hope this helps. Texas Tonik is the simplified version of gin rummy.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Sep 3, 2020 01:45PM)
Tommy you are in England I believe. There are games popular there but not so popular in America. Tonk is a game that became popular in the southern USA. Very popular in African American communities it is called the poor mans gin rummy a lot faster game. They have national championship tournament games in USA Today. A hustler likes a game they can play better than the average bear.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 3, 2020 02:23PM)
[quote]On Sep 3, 2020, cbharrelson wrote:

...I was 15 years old when I learned from another hustler the mcdougal riffle cull and stack where he could stack a flush or straight in 2 riffles...[/quote]

Interesting background information but I would question the above statement.

I have read just about everything MacDougall wrote and am well acquainted with his riffle cull and his riffle stack technique using a perfect shuffle, but I am not acquainted with this riffle cull and stack for 5 cards (flush or straight) in two shuffles.

Perhaps you can clarity.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Sep 3, 2020 03:33PM)
That is the beauty of this stack. It was not done the way it was taught in macdougallís book.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 3, 2020 06:39PM)
Thank you. May I ask, why the old hustler showed you the move?
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 3, 2020 07:17PM)
[quote]On Sep 3, 2020, cbharrelson wrote:

That is the beauty of this stack. It was not done the way it was taught in macdougallís book. [/quote]

While I donít doubt this is different than taught in his books, based upon my knowledge of moves it doesn't appear possible.

Of course, if something is missing from the explanation, like a pre-stack or for a two handed game or whatever, that would make a difference. However, the explanation is too brief for me to get a handle on it. It is too vague.

it implies culling and stacking five cards in two shuffles for an indeterminate number of hands. I can't do that, but if you can, I salute you for that ability.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Sep 3, 2020 09:36PM)
Can you know a lot about gambling moves you will figure it out. You are already working on it. Tommy at 15 I had an ability to get to know people and become friendly. He did not feel threatened by me and after Watching him play and a lot of flattery he showed me how to do the stack. I was akibitzer not a player then but I knew all the players.
Message: Posted by: Cagliostro (Sep 4, 2020 02:06PM)
[quote]On Sep 3, 2020, cbharrelson wrote:

Can (i.e. CAG) you know a lot about gambling moves you will figure it out. (re: the riffle cull/stack for a five card straight or flush in 2 shuffles). You are already working on it. [/quote]

No, I have not figured it out but decided my upside down, reverse, spinning center deal is all I will ever need in any game.;)
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 4, 2020 03:00PM)
I asked because I had a very similar experience myself when I was a young kid but the old hustler, who I had known all my life, did not teach the move for nothing. I was playing a wealthy a fella Kalooki and the old hustler whispered in my ear: I will teach you how to get the money at this game for half the winnings. The old hustler was Lue Baxter.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/when-the-green-baize-beckons-1588338.html
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Sep 4, 2020 05:00PM)
Well Tommy even today for various reasons hustlers will demonstrate moves. I think he was trying to impress.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Sep 4, 2020 05:16PM)
Tommy that is a very interesting story.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Sep 4, 2020 05:19PM)
Cag I donít think the type of games where these maneuvers flourished exist anymore.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Sep 4, 2020 05:25PM)
Cag you of all people on this forum has spoken about the wisdom in s and f . 1 collusion2 marked or prepared cards 3 manipulation.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Sep 4, 2020 05:39PM)
I will leave with this thought. My advice to a hustler of today. Learn how to cull and stack with the scramble.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 4, 2020 06:25PM)
The old hustler taught the me the move. It was a simple and bold move, which has to be executed at the right moment in the game and works great. Kallooki is a form of Gin, played with two decks and two Jokers and the move is called, Putting in the Jokers. Kallooki is popular in England as a side game, in Spiels, that to say ilegal gambling dens and billiard halls. Bit like pool hustling: find the right mark and it is worth the light.
Message: Posted by: cbharrelson (Sep 4, 2020 06:29PM)
Texas tonk uses 2 jokers.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 4, 2020 07:14PM)
Wel, this move is really designed for Kalooki only- a two deck game. I think they might play Kalooki in Canada. They used to call it Australian Rummy here as I recall but I can't really recall if that was the same game exactly. I will look up Tonk, I don't know it, thanks.
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Sep 6, 2020 10:13PM)
[quote]On Sep 4, 2020, tommy wrote:
Wel, this move is really designed for Kalooki only- a two deck game. I think they might play Kalooki in Canada. They used to call it Australian Rummy here as I recall but I can't really recall if that was the same game exactly. I will look up Tonk, I don't know it, thanks. [/quote]

No they don't..
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 7, 2020 02:10AM)
Some of the casinos here have Kalooki competitions.

https://www.gentingcasino.com/casinos/casino/genting-casino-edgbaston-birmingham/kalooki/
Message: Posted by: iamslow (Sep 12, 2020 11:07AM)
[quote]On Sep 7, 2020, tommy wrote:
Some of the casinos here have Kalooki competitions.

https://www.gentingcasino.com/casinos/casino/genting-casino-edgbaston-birmingham/kalooki/ [/quote]

But that's not Canada
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 13, 2020 01:26AM)
Neither is the Arcadia Billiard Hall but Canadian hustlers played Kallooki there circa 1970s. The Canadian hustlers, such as Big Bill Werbeniuk and Cliff Thorburn would come over here once a year for a month or so for the World Snooker Championship and played snooker cash games and some Kallooki on the side at the Arcadia. They may play a different version of Kalooki in Canada: is Canadian Rummy played with two decks and Jokers? The only other Canadian I ever knew was a little French Canadian guy named Louie, who was a Con Man and he owes me five grand.
Message: Posted by: Mr. Bones (Sep 13, 2020 11:54AM)
There is an alternate spelling to Kalooki, which is "Kaluki".
In this part of the world, it's primarily a Caribbean game, and then (it seems) primarily a Jamaican game.

It is played in Canada, and indeed all of North America, as noted in the following write-up:


North American Kaluki

Many American card game books contain rules for Kaluki - for example there are rules for Kaluki in the USPCC Official Rules of Cards Games. If these brief descriptions are to be trusted, it seems that North American Kaluki is rather different from the European game. The major differences are as follows:

The pack includes four jokers - 108 cards in all.
15 cards are dealt to each player when two, three or four play; five players are dealt 13 cards each; six receive 11 cards each.
The requirement for an initial meld is 51 points, but cards built on other players' melds can be counted towards this requirement, provided that the player makes at least one new meld of his own.
Cards cannot be taken from the discard pile before have put down your initial meld. You can, however, take the top discard to use as part of your initial meld.
Aces can be counted as high or low (but not both at once), so A-K-Q and A-2-3 are valid runs, though 2-A-K is not.
Aces count 15 points. A joker in the hand of a player at the end counts 25 points.
Having made your initial meld you can reuse a melded joker by substituting a valid natural card for it - only one card is needed to take a joker from a set.
There is no pool or buying in. At the end of each hand the winner scores the total value of all the cards remaining in the hands of the other players.
Apparently there is no special score for Kaluki (melding all your cards in one turn).


In his Encyclopedia of Games, John Scarne describes a slightly different version of Kaluki played on the East Coast of the USA, with the following differences from the above game:
Aces count 11.
It is possible to meld a set of three or four jokers, counting them as worth 15 each, though it is usually unwise to waste jokers in this way.
When the cards are cut, the bottom card is shown; if it is a joker, the player cutting takes it and receives 14 cards in the deal to make a hand of 15.
Immediately after the deal, the dealer may take the face-up card and discard another in its place (but may not draw from the stock instead). Play then starts with the player to dealer's left.
Throughout the play, the previous discard can only be taken if it is used immediately in a meld.
Each hand is a separate event. The losers each pay the winner one cent for each card in their hands, except jokers, for which they have to pay two cents. These payments are doubled if the winner went Kaluki.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Sep 13, 2020 07:39PM)
Kalooki is normally played heads up or by four players seated around a small table, as a side game, in places like billiard halls, poker clubs, golf clubs, picnic areas at race tracks and so on but it is usually played for small stakes and so not worth the light as a rule. Most of time I play it for small stakes, for fun. Over the years however I have had few good touches playing wealthy businessmen on a regular basis. If you can find the right customer it tends to become a regular thing as opposed to a one-night stand. By small stakes I mean lets say one two four, which is £1 a hand £2 a Kalooki and £4 game. High stakes games of kalooki, like Gin, are hundreds of times higher stakes. Bones, if you are interested, PM and I will explain the move.