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Topic: NFW or Stand Up Monte?
Message: Posted by: charlie_d (Sep 11, 2020 03:49AM)
I'd like to add a packet trick, but I don't have time for two. Which should I go for? Does anyone here do both?

Right now I have an ACR and a "cutting the aces" / poker demonstration style effect, so both NFW and Stand Up Monte work - NFW because of the aces and Stand Up Monte because of the gambling / cheating explanation presentation. I love both effects; I think they're both about as strong magically as you can get. I have no problem with the techniques, gaffs and spectator management. I think I'd prefer the new "Bar Presentation" of NFW because of the directness and the in-the-hands aspect, and the "vanilla" presentation of Stand Up Monte has a great flow, with lots of strong moments and a great finish.

I'd use either trick as a lead in to something with the full deck, so any tips on handlings or presentations would be gratefully received! To be honest I don't think there's anything wrong with resetting the packet and pulling out the full deck; the first part of both ACR and the full-deck aces thing is to have them shuffle the deck (if they can, and if they want to), so there's a natural-ish flow there ("so this time I can't cheat").
Message: Posted by: Paul Rathbun (Sep 11, 2020 12:19PM)
I personally think the best packet trick is Jon Allenís Double Back. I realize that doesnít answer your question but might give you something to think about.

Best of luck.

Message: Posted by: Wravyn (Sep 13, 2020 06:20PM)
Which one feels more comfortable to you?
Myself, I always had a difficult time following up a packet trick then removing a full pack from my pocket.
In my opinion, NFW allows for a full deck to be introduced then performing NFW and then into full deck tricks
Message: Posted by: charlie_d (Sep 14, 2020 04:32AM)
Not sure what's the most comfortable. NFW is easier to perform, I think. Stand up monte has *a lot* of procedure but more magic imo.

"Double Back" is interesting. Again, with the "impossible' transpositions.

Another possibility is to go ungaffed and use the Nick Trost Four Ace routine; it has transpositions and can be done in a "betting" style I guess, so it's kind-of in the same ballpark.

NFW and Stand Up Monte both have impossible moments in the audience's hands, which is why I like those two tricks specifically. I guess it's possible to have both and just do NFW when I feel like something really quick, and Stand Up Monte when something a little bit longer is needed. And Trost Aces with a borrowed deck or if I don't have the packets with me.
Message: Posted by: Wravyn (Sep 14, 2020 11:32AM)
Another packet trick that has the magic happen in their hands is Dr Daily's Last Trick. I use this as a follow up to NFW, yet no special packet cards are needed for DDLT, just remove the 4 cards you want to use from the deck if you just want to do it.
I use this
Message: Posted by: Theodore Lawton (Sep 16, 2020 03:42AM)
One thing about Stand Up Monte, if you don't perform it regularly you might have trouble remembering it. Myself and several other folks around here have mentioned this. It's a great trick, but lots to remember. Something to think about.
Both Wravyn and Paul make great suggestions. I have a deck with Double Back in it right now. I performed this at all my corporate walk around. It's not in their hands, but it's a killer.
Another thing you can do related to gambling is Color Monte. Put the "14 dollars" reveal card in the deck (or just use a normal, different card from the deck) and take it out with an Ace and a Joker instead of those colored diamond cards and you're all set for a gambling story. Then you can just leave the revealed card on the table and go into your normal full deck routines.
Keep us posted and have fun!
Message: Posted by: gkfreed (Sep 16, 2020 01:27PM)
[quote]On Sep 14, 2020, Wravyn wrote:
Another packet trick that has the magic happen in their hands is Dr Daily's Last Trick. I use this as a follow up to NFW, yet no special packet cards are needed for DDLT, just remove the 4 cards you want to use from the deck if you just want to do it.
I use this [/quote]

If you do NFW and immediately do Doc Daley's Last trick with the same cards, no gaffed card ever winds up in the spectator's hand. Takes the heat off the NFW cards and always gets a great reaction.

Message: Posted by: Wravyn (Sep 17, 2020 04:45PM)
[quote]On Sep 16, 2020, gkfreed wrote:

If you do NFW and immediately do Doc Daley's Last trick with the same cards, no gaffed card ever winds up in the spectator's hand. Takes the heat off the NFW cards and always gets a great reaction.

Gary [/quote]


Another nice thing about Doc Daley's Last Trick (as a stand alone trick) is you can use any four of a kind from a borrowed deck of cards.
Message: Posted by: BlushingCrow (Sep 22, 2020 04:23AM)
Another vote for Doc Daley's Last Trick, especially when it's done with matching cards
Message: Posted by: Wez_Evans (Sep 22, 2020 04:19PM)
I like stand up monte, and agree that it's got more magical moments.
It would fit with the cheat persona too.
Yes, it's more of a challenge to remember, but I would also say that it is something you could take apart and reconstruct. It's almost modular, and so could be shortened or lengthened at will.
Flexible in performance, means you could jazz a little if you wanted, or make your own
Message: Posted by: Theodore Lawton (Sep 22, 2020 06:22PM)
Charlie_d I'm curious if you've considered Twisting The Aces.
It can also be used to talk about a "cheaters skill", is ungaffed, has several "impossible" magical moments and imo gets much better reactions than DDLT.
Sometimes people can reverse engineer DDLT, but I find most people blown away by Twisting The Aces. "I was looking right at your hands!"
To each their own, YMMV
Message: Posted by: charlie_d (Sep 23, 2020 06:30AM)
I like Twisting The Aces, and I respect folks who do it :)

It's an awesome trick, but for me, I think the Trost Four Ace routine is similar but in my opinion stronger in effect (example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjKUS56iJvU ). The Trost routine isn't as clean as twisting the aces, but it is more magical imo.

I'm a bit of a curmudgeon when it comes to cards (just one guy's opinion):

- Counting isn't magic. ACAAN is maths, hence pointless.
- Spelling isn't magic. I used to think it was, but I got over it.
- Procedure isn't magic.

Maths? Spelling? Procedure? It's like forcing people back to school but without the entertainment value.

On the other hand:
- Monte involves money and crime, and objects moving impossibly, so it's inherently interesting and (can be) magic.
- Likewise, ACR is magic because their signed card moves impossibly.
- Cutting or dealing four aces or a royal straight flush from a deck is "impossible" (money/crime), so it's also interesting and magic.
- Putting the deck back in order is magic.
- Impossible coincidences (do as I do, gemini twins, out of this world etc) can sometimes be magic, but only if they don't involve procedure, maths or spelling.
- Card to wallet (or any other impossible location) is magic.
- Mind reading is magic, so for instance, ESP 5-card matches are magic.

Many (most?) card tricks are bad in my opinion, for these reasons. The faro is great, as is the 16th card thing, and gilbreath, and memdecks, but way, way too many tricks involving these methods are dull.

The only thing miraculous about ACAAN imo is the amount of time, effort and money magicians spend on an effect that gets filed by most normal people in the same category as the 21-card trick. You fiddled with the deck, some counting happened, we found the card.

There are a few exceptions. Up The Ante by Martyn Smith is an example, but imo only because of the "gambling".

Sorry if this offends anyone. :)
Message: Posted by: stevie c (Sep 24, 2020 07:36PM)
I loved that post charlie_d. A strong and informed opinion that also made me smile. I may not agree with everything you said, but you said it very well!! Bravo sir.


Message: Posted by: vincentmusician (Mar 31, 2021 06:32AM)
I have tried the tricks from NFW to Stand up Monte. Sometimes if something to an audience looks too impossible, then they suspect that you are using trick or gimmicked cards, which you are. Also, like others, I have found SUM quite difficult to remember. I had people keep trying to look under the cards because they suspected something. One lady said, Let me see those cards! So, I stick to ungimmicked routines using a few cards such as color monte instead. Just more comfortable for my performing.
Message: Posted by: SleightlySpooky (Jun 3, 2021 09:22AM)
Iíd go with NFW. Stand up monte, as others have said, has a lotttt to remember. Not just the moves and structure of the effect, but small subtleties as well. Without remembering every facet of it, namely the pacing, you may flash a bit.
Message: Posted by: Harle (Jun 4, 2021 05:17PM)
I'm a big fan of the Stand up Monte, but given your situation, I think that NFW would be a better fit.

Monte, as others have stated, has more to keep track of, but also has a much heavier gambling influence, so NFW tends to fit into varied routines better.

There's also the option with NFW to easily adjust the presentation based on the audience, and lean more or less into the gambling aspect.
Message: Posted by: EndersGame (Jun 6, 2021 01:48AM)
Stand Up Monte is a great trick. But as others have said, it's not the easiest to learn and remember.

So my vote would be for [url=http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=13049]NFW[/url]. It's a modern classic with good reason, and is still popular despite coming out over 20 years ago.

And as Gary pointed out earlier in this thread, you can immediately follow it up with Doc Daley's Last Trick to take the heat off the cards.

BTW, Gary (gkfreed) is the guy who created NFW, so kudos to him for making this great packet trick, and for chiming in here about it!
Message: Posted by: joseph (Jun 6, 2021 07:38AM)
Ditto ...
Message: Posted by: cuchullain (Jun 7, 2021 09:42AM)
I find it easier to incorporate NFW into a set. Eg I tell a story about my father warning me about card playing as I go to college. "He" starts by showing me up with Paul Harris - Instant Incompetency IQ test, then NFW, Then I complete the story with........... I didn't listen and I stole a card every time I lost - Lennart Greens Stolen cards, or... I got better than them... Up The Ante