(Close Window)
Topic: Guardian of the Grave
Message: Posted by: bloodyjack (Jul 8, 2004 01:41AM)
Does anyone know the origins of this trick, I know that Steven Minch has a version in The book of Toth and Michael Close has a version using a cassette tape and based on an ogre in various dungeons. So who first came up with this excellent mathematical trick?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jul 9, 2004 05:06PM)
I'm not familiar with the specifics of "Guardian of the Grave," but if it is a 3 X 3 matrix idea, it came from an item by Martin Gardner, using a principle called 8 in 1.

If it is a four by four matrix, it may have come from "Gray's Computer," which is a principle that may have been first used by Karl Fulves.
Message: Posted by: bloodyjack (Jul 9, 2004 09:21PM)
Cheers Bill
it is a 3 x 3 matrix Do you know were I can get Martin Gardner's original is it in a book?
Or were can I find some documentation on this 8 in 1 principle?
Message: Posted by: runawayjag (Jul 12, 2004 01:22AM)
I think the first magic TRICK of this nature that was sold using this principle was Gene Gordon's Voice From Another World. It used a 7-inch 33 r.p.m. playing record and the nine planets. The record played a voice that told which planets to remove and the number of moves they make, etc. and you ended up on the final planet that the record announced.

Of course the record was two-sided so you put the appropriate side up on the record spindle, depending on whether the spectator started odd or even. If you know how this works, you know what I mean.

I guess I'm dating myself! Can you imagine having to lug around even a portable record player today? It was a VERY cool trick at the time though, and fooled everyone who saw it.
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jul 12, 2004 02:41AM)
Yes, it does originate with Gardner, though can't recall exactly where he has it in print. My favourite version is Tony Spina's "Room For Doubt" that Tannen's put out (I think they re-released it the other year) in the late sixties/early seventies. My second favourite is the Minch Tarot card version.

In the seventies George Blake published several versions in Magigram magazine.

Ken Brooke once marketed one with a Safari theme.

Paul.

Posted: Jul 12, 2004 7:10pm
Update! In his book "Tricks of the Imagination" Robert E. Neale says it first appeared in Gardner's column in Scientific American. Neale has a version with two objects "Tale of Two Guns". I recall Paul Daniels once doing a scaled up version of that on British TV.

Paul.
Message: Posted by: bloodyjack (Jul 12, 2004 07:18PM)
I am an electronics engineer and magician at night.
My latest home project is an electronic talking version that uses steve's Tarot idea. Once I have built a prototype for myself I might look in to the possibility of marketing it.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jul 13, 2004 02:33AM)
Punx had a version of it called "Kismet," which was in [i]Magical Adventures and Fairy Tales[/i] AKA [i]Once Upon a Time.[/i] Herbert M. Paufler made the props for it -- it was a one-off -- then he proceeded to knock it off and make his own version, using Punx's patter, which he wrote up in an East German magic magazine. This version was called "Guru," and featured a talking head, which reminded me greatly of the head in the box that Seņor Wences used.

I wrote up a version for the computer in 1984, that was in TI extended basic. It used the speech module, as well. I used Tarot cards, which were laid out on a table. At the end, the remaining card, an Ace of Pentacles, showed up on the screen. It took me about a month to program it, because of the intense graphics.

There was also a version in [i]Magic Dungeon Mentalism[/i]. The thing has almost been done to death. But I think every magician who sees it is captivated by it, moreso than the audiences.

The chief defect in the routine is that it takes so long. Phil Goldstein solved this by having more than one object removed at a couple of points in the routine when he did it on television.
Message: Posted by: Paul (Jul 13, 2004 03:12AM)
Bill said,"The chief defect in the routine is that it takes so long."

This is why I rate "Room For Doubt" as the best. The dramatic voice, comic asides and the music (which I eventually realised was from the original "Planet of the Apes" movie)make it entertaining throughout.

I have the Punx books, but don't recall that one so it did not make an impression on me.

Bloodyjack, if you are thinking of marketing the tarot idea, why not have a word with Steve Minch about it?

Paul.
Message: Posted by: hugmagic (Jul 13, 2004 06:15AM)
Animal Safari was another version of this by Magic Inc. I agree it was too long. It was fun to do once at a club meeting or for family at a dinner table but far too long to work in many other situations.
Message: Posted by: bloodyjack (Jul 13, 2004 11:19AM)
I know Steve, we live in the same city. I will mention it to him. I just saw him at the McBride lecture and have been to a Eugene Burger session at his house, but my routine will be so far from his that it can't be classed as a knock off, and I have a great hook for the electronic device.
A friend of mine mentioned discarding more than one card at once and I might look into that option. I am trying to get a prototype built and working for the PCAM here in a couple of weeks.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jul 17, 2004 10:55PM)
[quote]
On 2004-07-13 04:12, Paul wrote:
Bill said,"The chief defect in the routine is that it takes so long."

This is why I rate "Room For Doubt" as the best. The dramatic voice, comic asides and the music (which I eventually realised was from the original "Planet of the Apes" movie)make it entertaining throughout.

I have the Punx books, but don't recall that one so it did not make an impression on me.

Bloodyjack, if you are thinking of marketing the tarot idea, why not have a word with Steve Minch about it?

Paul.
[/quote]

It was the last trick in the regular part of the first Punx book. It was called "Kismet."
Message: Posted by: bloodyjack (Jul 27, 2004 01:36PM)
Hey Bill what kind of prop was used with Kismet and is the book Readily available? I have my prop finished and working but after all the R&D designing the electronics it might be nice to have Bizarre version.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jul 28, 2004 05:55PM)
The book is available. It is called [i]Once Upon a Time.[/i] The props would have to be assembled. I'll PM you with more details.
Message: Posted by: rickmagic1 (Jul 28, 2004 06:26PM)
If I'm not mistaken, Christian Chelman has something similar to this using a map with grids, and several coins. I think it's in his book, Capricornian Tales.

Rick
Message: Posted by: mattisdx (Aug 1, 2004 11:57AM)
I've never heard of it, whats the effect ?
Message: Posted by: dr chutney (Aug 3, 2004 07:55AM)
Having just received Capricornian Tales from East Coast Magic this morning I can confirm his effect, The Fisher King, is based on this matrix principle, wrapped up very nicely in a tale of hidden treasure.
As you proceed you use silver coins to block off the squares one by one until just the chosen square remains.
Message: Posted by: MerlH (Sep 5, 2004 11:36AM)
Milton Bradley sold an electronic toy version of this this and it is great, the eyes flash and the guradian talks. The trick was in a series called the Magic Works. When they were wholesaled out I bought over 2 dozen and sold them to magician friends of mine. Would not see it for any price now!
Message: Posted by: Stevethomas (Sep 10, 2004 05:02AM)
I still have a few of the original Magic Works models around the studio. Let's not forget what Wellington did with it...what a beautiful version of that they're selling!

Steve Thomas
Message: Posted by: bloodyjack (Oct 13, 2004 05:22PM)
I am working on a new version the prop with the electronics in is a Gypsy fortune teller booth with anamatronic gypsy. She gives you a Tarot card reading eliminating cards as you go. You can check my progress here
http://tinyurl.com/6wjav
Message: Posted by: Scott Ocheltree (Oct 31, 2004 09:33PM)
The MagicWorks piece was designed by Mark Setteducati.

The Wellington version of this is perhaps the ultimate presentation of Marks idea. For $425 I'm guessing it's pretty nice. Hank Lee has it listed [url=http://www.hanklee.org/xcart/customer/product.php?productid=2785&cat=&page=1]HERE[/url]

BloodyJack/Pete,
I love the look of Madame Zarra!
Message: Posted by: Julie (Nov 1, 2004 01:25AM)
[quote]
On 2004-09-05 12:36, MerlH wrote:
Milton Bradley sold an electronic toy version of this this and it is great, the eyes flash and the guradian talks. The trick was in a series called the Magic Works. When they were wholesaled out I bought over 2 dozen and sold them to magician friends of mine. Would not see it for any price now!

/quote]

There were 3 different effects in that Magic Works series and all of them were very good.
(Yep, I still have a few stockpiled, too!)
Message: Posted by: Anverdi-museum (Jan 23, 2005 10:11PM)
I have the Wellington version, it is very nice indeed. The coffin does all of the talking and a crystal with the "gaurdian" is etched on it, the spectator puts this on any card to start with. There is some neat modifications to this version that the Milton Bradley toy does not have. I like this effect a lot for a small group for a close-up session.

Bloody Jack, I like your idea as well. Please contact me when more are completed, I may be interested in purchasing one. I also build and collect many different types of electronic magic effects, check it out at: http://caputocollection.tripod.com/

Cheers,

Chuck
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 23, 2005 10:45PM)
One of the more interesting events surrounding the Punx version occurred when he came to visit me in Houston about 1986. I had a copy of an East German magic magazine, and in it was a routine by Herbert M. Paufler called "Guru," in which a talking head, quite reminiscent of Senor Wences' head in the box (All Right!) moved its jaws as the script was read.

The irony was this. Paufler had built the props for Punx's original routine. Paufler quoted Punx's routine almost verbatim, without credit or permission, in the magazine. Punx was really ticked about this!
Message: Posted by: Julie (Jan 24, 2005 01:01PM)
[quote]
On 2004-09-05 12:36, MerlH wrote:
Milton Bradley sold an electronic toy version of this this and it is great, the eyes flash and the guradian talks. The trick was in a series called the Magic Works. When they were wholesaled out I bought over 2 dozen and sold them to magician friends of mine. Would not see it for any price now!
[/quote]

I have a new one of these still in a sealed box. If anyone is interested, please PM me. :) (I have the other two electronic pieces still in sealed boxes available, too!)
Message: Posted by: bloodyjack (Jan 27, 2005 03:36PM)
I have a new web site up and a smaller version coming out that does a TA Walters effect with similar props.
Check my new web site out you can get to it by clicking on my picture and the address is in my information.
It seems inappropriate to post the web site here.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jan 28, 2005 06:50AM)
Why not? It's a great site and a cool product! What is the size of Zarra?
Julie..I'll PM you.
Message: Posted by: bloodyjack (Jan 28, 2005 10:57AM)
Hey Slim
Julie is talking about the Milton Bradley toy.
I have not put anything out yet or taken anyones money.
I did not buy that eye of the idol because it looks like
a hong kong rip off of a Tenyo product.
Message: Posted by: Slim King (Jan 28, 2005 08:56PM)
I didn't realize that it was a ripoff. Now looking at the box it says FADA XIEDA. The one I got from Switzerland is at work so I can't check it...but it 's packaging looks much different. It won't bother me to tear it( the Hong Kong one) appart and make something else....The Fist of the Pharoah...Ha Ha.
Message: Posted by: billy428 (Jul 14, 2008 04:09PM)
Where may one obtain a cassette tape of Animal Safari? Somehow I have misplaced my copy.
bill
wmbrooks@aol.com
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jul 16, 2008 12:08AM)
Good luck finding one. That has been out of issue for at least 30 years!
Message: Posted by: billy428 (Jul 16, 2008 04:44PM)
Thanks for the reply, Bill. Somewhere in this world there must be a cassette floating around.
bill
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jul 17, 2008 05:18AM)
Wasn't that put out by George Schindler? If it was, he may have a copy of it.

After you have 50 posts, put an ad in the tricks for sale or trade.
Message: Posted by: magringo (Apr 24, 2012 06:29PM)
I bought a cassette tape that had the "voice from another world" that talked about the planets... but I was not able to reconstruct the set up of the planets in which order. Does anyone out there know the set up. Thanks much...
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Apr 25, 2012 11:48PM)
Get the Punx book [i]Once Upon a Time[/i]. Set up the board as given in the routine "Kismet." Then substitute a planet for each of the nine objects. As a finale, you could have Pluto as the last of the planets. Then reveal that Pluto could never be taken, because Pluto is no longer a planet.
Message: Posted by: Magiguy (Nov 25, 2015 10:09AM)
Old thread, but for the sake of completeness...

The original Gardner item was published in the August 1960 Scientific American, and then republished in the 1966 book "New Mathematical Diversions," ch. 9, pgs. 103 - 112 It was also republished in "Martin Gardner Presents," pgs. 149 - 153, where several spin-off versions are referenced, including "Voice from Another World," and "Room for Doubt," among others.