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Topic: Ernest Earick's By Forces Unseen
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jul 14, 2004 07:30PM)
What's this book all about? Anyone have it?

I was reading through old threads, and it looks like it's got a great one-hand bottom palm.

Anything else people really like?

Frank
Message: Posted by: cardguy24 (Jul 14, 2004 08:38PM)
This book has a lot of great stuff in it. It's very demanding but the material is worth learning. The one-hand bottom palm is awesome.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jul 15, 2004 12:45AM)
I do Jennings One-hand bottom palm. How does this one differ?
Message: Posted by: hnegash (Jul 15, 2004 02:06AM)
[quote]
On 2004-07-15 01:45, Frank Starsini wrote:
I do Jennings One-hand bottom palm. How does this one differ?

[/quote]

Frank,
For this palm there is a lot less hand movement. The card is spun out clockwise rather than counter as in Jennings version.

Henok
Message: Posted by: YTBN (Jul 15, 2004 09:07AM)
Its great but requires a fair bit of practice. You can also see it in action on Paul Wilson's Twists of Fate video.
Message: Posted by: Ed Oschmann (Jul 15, 2004 09:37AM)
With all due to respect to the GREAT Larry Jennings, his one-handed palm is just awful. Please, no offense intented.
Earick came up with his palm after watching Vernon do a variant of the Erdnase palm. It is a thing of beauty and well worth the work to put into.
In forces unseen Ernest has invented and/or reengineered many existing sleights (all for the better imo).
He covers several palm to palm transfers, center steals, convincing controls, riffle stacking, culls..just buy this book ok? In my top five favorite books.
Ed
Message: Posted by: dbiderman (Jul 15, 2004 10:25AM)
One of my favorite moves in this book is his convincinv control...it is my main control and is relatively easy, and very good...as for effects, I am quite fond of "one shuffle one winner", it is a stacking effect requiring only one shuffle to place cards any where on a poker table
Message: Posted by: eryanic (Jul 15, 2004 11:38AM)
Is this book out of print?
Message: Posted by: dbiderman (Jul 15, 2004 11:56AM)
It was for quite a while but was recently put back out on the streets, you can probably find a new edition for about 35 bucks with most magic dealers
Message: Posted by: hnegash (Jul 15, 2004 06:22PM)
Check out Hermetic Press for a copy.

Henok
Message: Posted by: bdekolta (Jul 15, 2004 07:28PM)
Frank the Earick palm is a one-handed Erdnase palm. Many of the techniques in the book are based on the Erdnase mechanics. So a good grounding in Erdnase is helpful but not essential. [i]By Forces Unseen[/i] is a really fun book to work through.

~ Dan
Message: Posted by: tuffnavyrn (Sep 22, 2004 08:54PM)
This is an awesome cardworkers book and we are very lucky that Hermetic Press recently reprinted. Before this reprint the text was OOP and was getting bids of $200+ on Ebay. I must warn you though...many of these effects are very demanding and not being a big cardman I don't have much use with over half the material right now. You'll definitely need some other references when learning....seems the Card College books would be of great help. Still a phenomenal book to own.
Message: Posted by: entity (Sep 23, 2004 10:55PM)
Arguably the best routine in this book is his version of the Jonah Card trick. Fabulous presentation and the handling is very simple.

- entity
Message: Posted by: remco de wolf (Sep 24, 2004 07:39AM)
You can find three effects from the book performed by Denis Behr at : http://www.denisbehr.de/effectsonly.html

Remco
Message: Posted by: Wordsworth (Jan 27, 2021 01:58PM)
I know this is an ancient thread here, but I'm seeing Penguin saying that this is available in harcover again. Interesting to see a reprint on one of these out of print books that has been going for a fortune second hand.
Message: Posted by: mayniac (Jan 27, 2021 03:10PM)
Great to see this. There is no reason for books like this to be selling for hundreds or thousands of dollars. Iím sure a few profiteering collectors will be sad, but for the magic community at large, this is awesome.
Message: Posted by: nooner (Jan 28, 2021 10:27AM)
The resale market for this book just took a nosedive. I never understood why this book commanded so much value in the secondary market, aside from scarcity. I see that people are already dumping copies on the Cafť book sales section. Charging $100 for theirs when new copies can be gotten from vanishing for $35. I guess that's just "magicians helping magicians".
Message: Posted by: Wordsworth (Jan 28, 2021 11:30AM)
I noticed this pop up for sale there also. It always makes me laugh when someone posts something for 300% of what a book can be purchased new, and someone calls them on it over there. A lot of people won't know this one is reprinted yet, though.
Message: Posted by: nooner (Jan 28, 2021 11:43AM)
Agreed. People charging $100 for this now are trying to take advantage of that information arbitrage. The scummy part of this is they need to exploit other magicians for this to work.
Message: Posted by: nooner (Jan 28, 2021 02:17PM)
Vanishing had it at $35 an hour ago. Now it is $50 and they only have 22 copies left. Wondering if they have an algo in place that fluctuates price based on availability.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Jan 29, 2021 08:52AM)
Possibly the first price was a mistake.
Message: Posted by: Kimura (Jan 31, 2021 02:15PM)
I don't think VI would stoop so crappily low as to do something like that, I'm sure it was an error.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Jan 31, 2021 04:55PM)
"There is no reason for books like this to be selling for hundreds or thousands of dollars."
I disagree.
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Feb 1, 2021 08:38AM)
There is no reason for books to be sold for such high prices.

Generally speaking, classic books are very cheap compared to what lies inside. For me, no book worth more than 200 hundred.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 1, 2021 09:26AM)
[quote]On Feb 1, 2021, Rachmaninov wrote:
There is no reason for books to be sold for such high prices.

Generally speaking, classic books are very cheap compared to what lies inside. For me, no book worth more than 200 hundred. [/quote]
I disagree.
Message: Posted by: SoloDoubleAct (Feb 1, 2021 01:34PM)
That first price must have been a mistake because $35 dollars is bargain basement for a decent hardcover like this. Even $50, after longingly looking at the aftermarket for so long, feels like a steal.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 2, 2021 03:35PM)
"Generally speaking, classic books are very cheap compared to what lies inside"

- Could you please explain this?
I don't understand.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 2, 2021 03:37PM)
"For me, no book worth more than 200 hundred."

- So an original copy of Reginald Scot's The Discoverie of Witchcraft should be $200 or less?
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Feb 2, 2021 05:59PM)
A new edition of the book, depending on the quality of course, should be cheap. Rarity makes a market value, nothing more.
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Feb 2, 2021 06:01PM)
I have this book but Iíve never read it. Shame on me ? From what other say, itís very difficult material, often not deserving the hard work needed to master it. I read just a few pages years ago and I had this same feeling.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 2, 2021 07:28PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2021, Rachmaninov wrote:
A new edition of the book, depending on the quality of course, should be cheap. Rarity makes a market value, nothing more. [/quote]
Incorrect, but not surprising coming from someone who thinks the contents of a book are all that matters.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 2, 2021 07:28PM)
[quote]On Feb 2, 2021, Rachmaninov wrote:
I have this book but Iíve never read it. Shame on me ? From what other say, itís very difficult material, often not deserving the hard work needed to master it. I read just a few pages years ago and I had this same feeling. [/quote]
No. You don't have this book.
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Feb 3, 2021 04:38AM)
I was speaking of Forces unseenÖ

I could be the owner of the original Scott book. How do you know with such certainty what I have in my library ?!
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Feb 3, 2021 04:40AM)
Magic fish, an opinion can not be incorrect.

As for the market value, itís a fact.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 3, 2021 08:53AM)
"Rarity makes a market value, nothing more."

- This is factually incorrect. Nothing to do with opinions.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Feb 3, 2021 09:22AM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2021, magicfish wrote:
"Rarity makes a market value, nothing more."

- This is factually incorrect. Nothing to do with opinions. [/quote]

So if there were a million copies of the 1st edition of Discoverie of Witchcraft, you think they'd still be selling for 80K? Because the mass produced volume of the same information is about $16. https://www.amazon.com/Discoverie-Witchcraft-Dover-Occult/dp/0486260305/ref=sr_1_2
Message: Posted by: Rachmaninov (Feb 3, 2021 12:10PM)
Thanks witchdocchris, I will not discuss with someone who is arguing the obvious.
Thing is I was criticizing magicfish idol (Lorayne) in another post and he just canít stand it.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 3, 2021 07:05PM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2021, WitchDocChris wrote:
[quote]On Feb 3, 2021, magicfish wrote:
"Rarity makes a market value, nothing more."

- This is factually incorrect. Nothing to do with opinions. [/quote]

So if there were a million copies of the 1st edition of Discoverie of Witchcraft, you think they'd still be selling for 80K? Because the mass produced volume of the same information is about $16. https://www.amazon.com/Discoverie-Witchcraft-Dover-Occult/dp/0486260305/ref=sr_1_2 [/quote]
I don't understand.
1st, the statement was that the ONLY thing that gives a book market value is its rarity. Are you saying you agree with this?
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 3, 2021 07:16PM)
"So if there were a million copies of the 1st edition of Discoverie of Witchcraft, you think they'd still be selling for 80K?†"
- if a million copies survived over 400 years, I guarantee each one would be worth a lot more than 16 dollars. Why? Because, contrary to the previous opinion, there are more factors than just rarity that add value to a book. This is indisputable.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 3, 2021 07:25PM)
He also wrote that no book should be more than $200 dollars.
Do you agree with this?
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Feb 4, 2021 08:39AM)
[quote]On Feb 3, 2021, magicfish wrote:
He also wrote that no book should be more than $200 dollars.
Do you agree with this? [/quote]

No. I have happily paid more than $200 for books that were worth it to me.

However, I will also note that every one of those books was rare, old, and/or concerning quite niche subjects. ie: Low supply.

That being said, I would never have paid the previous going rates for By Forced Unseen because it simply wasn't worth it to me.

What Rachmaninov is referring to is basically Supply and Demand. When it comes to old, rare, or niche books the supply is low, so there are few choices. This allows sellers to demand higher prices because buyers don't have options. If there were options, the price would plummet.

There was a reprint of The Discoverie of Witchcraft in 1930. 1275 copies were made, and they actually created a special paper to use just for that printing. So the quality of the books is very nice. They sell for around $300-$700. So this is a case where we have a very solid example of exactly what Rachmaninov is referring to - Two volumes, both high quality, both with the same content. The reason the 1st edition sells for so much is because it's extremely rare and niche.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 4, 2021 10:26AM)
Your point is clear, and obvious.
However, the member made no mention of age nor niche nor quality.
His claim was equally clear- that only rarity adds value to a book.
My response to that remains the same- it simply isn't true, as you have eloquently pointed out in your post above.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Feb 4, 2021 10:57AM)
Rarity is probably the main defining factor, in all honesty. That and desire of the buyer to own it.

There's plenty of antique books you can buy for next to nothing, because no one cares about them.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 4, 2021 02:38PM)
Of course. See? There's another factor. There are so many other than just rarity.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Feb 4, 2021 04:00PM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2021, magicfish wrote:
Of course. See? There's another factor. There are so many other than just rarity. [/quote]

Not many. And I'd argue rarity is the most significant.

We're circling. Either you'll accept this or you won't. I'm done.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 4, 2021 06:04PM)
Um no. It is you who has already accepted and confirmed.
Somebody made an absolute statement that rarity is the ONLY thing that adds value to a book. I stated that this was incorrect, and you agreed with me by listing several other factors that add value to a book.
Are some more significant than others? Of course. Nobody is disputing that.
For some strange reason you are now denying your own opinion.
THERE ARE MORE FACTORS THAN JUST RARITY THAT INFLUENCE BOOK VALUE.
Period.
If you won't accept this then you are lying to yourself.
Done indeed.
Message: Posted by: kissdadookie (Feb 19, 2021 10:25AM)
[quote]On Feb 4, 2021, WitchDocChris wrote:
[quote]On Feb 4, 2021, magicfish wrote:
Of course. See? There's another factor. There are so many other than just rarity. [/quote]

Not many. And I'd argue rarity is the most significant.

We're circling. Either you'll accept this or you won't. I'm done. [/quote]

I think rarity typically drives up the asking price when first released. It's a combination of finite supply in conjunction with demand which drives up the resell value. The demand I think typically would leave the resell market supply constrained (as people whom already have a copy would be less likely to want to part with it). It's this constrained supply for which the item then drives a higher resell price.

Rarity alone I don't think is sufficient as we can find goodness knows how many examples of things which are released in very limited quantities (thus inherently rare) yet there's little to no resell market for the item. End of the day it's really a supply and demand issue but there needs to be demand. It's the demand which sets a perceived value on something.

Hypothetically speaking, something that has just 100 copies ever to be produced but there's little demand for it is obviously not going to fetch a price which will appreciate. Something that has 1000 copies ever to be produced which has a high demand for it, this would likely be a item that appreciates in value.

Remember, value is subjective, it's perceived. Rarity is quantifiable and is not simply a subjective element. Rarity is a factor in the pricing of something especially for resell. It is however, not the main factor (it's high up there, but there's no plausible argument for it to be the most significant, even with your examples, it's more a function of age and wanting the first printing of something, those can be mutually exclusive to rarity).
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 24, 2021 03:39AM)
Great post. You're so right. And thanks for the support. You said it much better than I.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Feb 24, 2021 08:12AM)
[quote]On Feb 19, 2021, kissdadookie wrote:
I think rarity typically drives up the asking price when first released. It's a combination of finite supply in conjunction with demand which drives up the resell value. The demand I think typically would leave the resell market supply constrained (as people whom already have a copy would be less likely to want to part with it). It's this constrained supply for which the item then drives a higher resell price.

Rarity alone I don't think is sufficient as we can find goodness knows how many examples of things which are released in very limited quantities (thus inherently rare) yet there's little to no resell market for the item. End of the day it's really a supply and demand issue but there needs to be demand. It's the demand which sets a perceived value on something.

Hypothetically speaking, something that has just 100 copies ever to be produced but there's little demand for it is obviously not going to fetch a price which will appreciate. Something that has 1000 copies ever to be produced which has a high demand for it, this would likely be a item that appreciates in value.

Remember, value is subjective, it's perceived. Rarity is quantifiable and is not simply a subjective element. Rarity is a factor in the pricing of something especially for resell. It is however, not the main factor (it's high up there, but there's no plausible argument for it to be the most significant, even with your examples, it's more a function of age and wanting the first printing of something, those can be mutually exclusive to rarity). [/quote]

As soon as a product is desired, the seller will be able to set the price in accordance to how easily that buyer could go to someone else to purchase it.

In other words: If a product is readily available, the upper price will be set by how low someone else is willing to sell it.

So yeah - rarity is the main factor of pricing.

I mean - honestly, do you think anyone would pay more than $50 for By Forces Unseen currently? It was selling for hundreds of dollars before this reprint. But now it's readily available, same content, same quality.

The only people I can imagine who would pay more than the retail price would be either fanatic collectors who think "1st Edition" will genuinely add value, or someone in some weird circumstance that means they can't purchase from the retail stores getting taken advantage of by a greedy seller.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 26, 2021 10:18AM)
One doesn't need to be a fanatic to appreciate 1st editions.
Again, NOBODY here has disputed that rarity
can be a significant factor, sometimes the main factor.
The claim made was that rarity is the ONLY thing that adds value to a book.
This is false as you have shown in each of your posts.
I'm confused as to why you won't concede that
The claim is false, even though you YOURSELF have listed many other factors that contribute to the value of a book.
Message: Posted by: WitchDocChris (Feb 26, 2021 10:28AM)
I am making a separate claim. Sorry if that was confusing to you.

Once a demand is established, rarity will be the primary factor.
Message: Posted by: magicfish (Feb 26, 2021 11:22AM)
I'll try again.

Rachmaninov wrote:
"Rarity makes a market value, nothing more."

This is false.