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Topic: Want to see Fitch Kohler Holdout in action...
Message: Posted by: Rocky (Jul 28, 2004 09:21PM)
Is anyone who leased this product incorporating it into their act yet? After speaking with those responsible for this state-of-the-art holdout,Ive been promised that I'll witness some really spellbinding magic. Its that time of year again for me to hit the road and seek out performers for my restaurant. If you have a restaurant or gig that you perform at on a regular basis, please respond as I travel the US and am more than willing to alter my route to see some possible perfromers for my place. I would be especially interested in those who are using the holdout I mentioned. It appears that this product is hard to keep on the shelves so I know that there are magicians using it,hopefully Ill get to see it in action. Keeping my fingers crossed!!
Rocky
Message: Posted by: sullivanl (Apr 28, 2005 06:20PM)
I would also love to see some real-world live performances. I want to know what I am missing out on!
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Apr 29, 2005 06:05PM)
I've seen it. I've seen the set. It will take practice to use it, but nothing I have ever seen is as good.
Message: Posted by: debaser (Apr 29, 2005 09:41PM)
Yes, it is nice, specifically in the small touches. However it is still just a hold out and requires a ton of practice. Anyone using a good holdout though will probably fool you and therefore I don't understand the desire to see that specific holdout in action. Because in the end, you wont see it.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Apr 29, 2005 09:44PM)
That is precisely true. However, I have seen some holdout workers who occasionally blew it. And it was fortunate that they were around magicians when it happened.
Message: Posted by: debaser (Apr 30, 2005 12:18AM)
Absolutely, I think the holdout is one of the more precarious devices in magic and conversely most effective. However it is like learning a whole different craft. Body language, blocking, timing in relation to the routine. It is like going from guitar to slide guitar, similar and to the same effect as regular guitar but with a comple new dimension added. Not for the faint at heart.

Matt
Message: Posted by: Thomas Wayne (May 1, 2005 02:52AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-30 01:18, debaser wrote:
Absolutely, I think the holdout is one of the more precarious devices in magic and conversely most effective. However it is like learning a whole different craft. Body language, blocking, timing in relation to the routine. It is like going from guitar to slide guitar, similar and to the same effect as regular guitar but with a comple new dimension added. Not for the faint at heart.

Matt
[/quote]

Well then I guess it's a good thing that the Fitch/Kohler Holdout System comes with a FIVE DVD instructional set and free access to a forum with many, many articles written about using the system.

Best Regards,
Thomas Wayne
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (May 1, 2005 01:10PM)
It seems to me that nothing is ever mastered without work, thought and practice.
Mastery of the holdout as a tool is no different than mastering the pass or classic palming coins so that your hand looks natural.

Integrating any method to the level necessary for professional presentations is going to take a lot of time. Writing and integrating professional level presentations that contain excellent patter, correct body movement and posture etc. takes even longer.

Living in Las Vegas I've been very fortunate to be behind the scenes to witness how much time and effort pros such as David Copperfield, Penn & Teller, Mac King, Criss Angel and Rick Thomas put into a routine before it's ever offered for public consumption. It's staggering. They are at the top because of their talents but also their work ethic.

The Fitch Kohler Professional Holdout System is a tool for serious performers. Sure it's going to take time to master. But using the best tool for the job is a decision that all master craftsman make when doing a job. It's no different in magic.

Holdouts simply do many things better than any other solution. It's up to each performer to decide what there character is going to be, what effects they will perform and what methods suit them best. No doubt holdout work isn't for everybody. But our solutions solve all of the issues magicians found daunting when they've attempted to use this mighty tool in the past.

Out of all of our Holdout users only one has transfered his lease. No names, but he's a good friend of mine so I know the reason. It had nothing to do with difficuly to master but everything to do with his change of necessary show material.

Actually, you've probably already have seen our holdout used but had no idea what happened. It's been on TV not only in the US but several other countries. The list of users is for the most part professionals and a few serious magicians who don't perform for money but really care about there magic.

Our intention when releasing the secrets and equipment of our system wasn't to flood the magic world with the knowledge and turn everybody out there into a holdout nation. We really did it to keep our work alive but at the same time keeps the secrets secret. We've done that.

Many think we've made a fortune with it, but the reality is if we really look at the hours and money we've invested in it we've probably just broken even. It's really been a work of love for the device.

It has been rewarding though to see what others have adapted our solution to do. Bob Fitch, Thomas Wayne and myself with the help of the new holdout users are still working on making it better and better...

This thread is about seeing the holdout at work. I haven't put up video on the web for many reasons. I doubt I'll change my mind. Thomas and I have thought about another way to let you have a peek behind the curtain but at the present time I haven't really started on it yet.

Part of the difficulty is our system can do so many things and can be adapted to do many more. It's virtually impossible to showcase what it can do in a reasonable amount of time.

So for now you'll have to trust the opinions of folks who have had a peek behind the curtain like Bill Palmer.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (May 1, 2005 01:33PM)
Let me point out before anyone misunderstands what I meant when I wrote "However, I have seen some holdout workers who occasionally blew it." that I was not referring to anyone using the Fitch-Kohler holdout. Quite the contrary. I was referring to someone who was using a Jack Miller holdout. The setup is completely different between the two. The principle is the same, but there are features of the Fitch-Kohler system that preclude the particular accident that I saw.
Message: Posted by: Robert Fitch (May 4, 2005 08:36AM)
Bill Palmer wrote:
[quote]That is precisely true. However, I have seen some holdout workers who occasionally blew it. And it was fortunate that they were around magicians when it happened.
[/quote]
Yes, and that happened to me...It was very frustrating...which is why Bob Kohler and I put our heads together to help avoid these accidents as much as possible. And those ideas are the basis of what our Fitch/Kohler Holdout is all about. The additional way to avoid these accidents is to ... need I say it?...practice!

But seriously, take the time to look up the explanations of our holdout adaptations and changes on Bob Kohler's website. It gives a full explanation of what the improvements were all about...it doesn't tell you how we did it...but rather what we did. That should give you a primer on Holdouts and their basic problems (Now solved).. <www.bobkohlermagic.com>
Bob Fitch
Message: Posted by: kihei kid (May 4, 2005 09:49AM)
[quote]
On 2005-05-01 14:10, Bob Kohler wrote:
We really did it to keep our work alive but at the same time keeps the secrets secret. We've done that.
[/quote]
Kudos.
[quote]
Many think we've made a fortune with it, but the reality is if we really look at the hours and money we've invested in it we've probably just broken even. It's really been a work of love for the device.
[/quote]
Major Kudos.
[quote]
This thread is about seeing the holdout at work. I haven't put up video on the web for many reasons. I doubt I'll change my mind.
[/quote]
:bawl:
Message: Posted by: sullivanl (May 5, 2005 02:27PM)
Thank you for your informative comments Bob, I appreciate the fact that you spend the time to discuss your device with the magic community, your reasons for releasing it, etc... I would like to thank you for releasing this device to the magic community, and I feel your stipulations of ownership help protect the magic community and keep the device out of the hands of the idly curious and rip-off artists. I would do the exact same thing if I was in your place.

Just to clarify one thing, if someone leases your holdout, they are allowed to use it when they perform effects on TV, but can not expose it under any circumstance? Of course they would have to be proficient in its use, but that goes without saying. I ask because I perform on TV in Asia quite frequently, MTV Asia, BBC, Bravo, and was wondering if the magic community would shun me if I used your holdout in a few routines (assuming I leased it and was able to use it effectively)?
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (May 5, 2005 11:37PM)
[quote]
On 2005-05-05 15:27, sullivanl wrote:
Just to clarify one thing, if someone leases your holdout, they are allowed to use it when they perform effects on TV, but can not expose it under any circumstance?
[/quote]

Bob posted this above:

[quote]
On 2005-05-01 14:10, Bob Kohler wrote:
Actually, you've probably already have seen our holdout used but had no idea what happened. It's been on TV not only in the US but several other countries.
[/quote]

I think that answers your question. Also, you can read the Lease agreement on Bob's site. It does not prohibit any of its use, it just prohibits its exposure.
Message: Posted by: reidem (May 9, 2005 03:04PM)
Bob Kohler and Bob Fitch have put many years and sleepless nights into this space age holdout and dozens of its uses. It's not for the idle, it does demand you have a passion for magic and a willingness to spend time and live with it. If you already have the "meat and potatoes", i.e. are a good magician, this will add the spice to your magic. If you are a beginner, spend your time learning all the fundamentals first. You can't build a house without a strong foundation grasshopper.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (May 18, 2005 09:36AM)
[quote]
it just prohibits its exposure.
[/quote]

what a great idea!
Message: Posted by: WalterZ (Jun 18, 2005 04:39AM)
I think it's ridiculous.
A holdout is a tool. Choosing the right holdout for the proper time is the key. Why have different connections etc for ONE holdout? This just sounds terrible. Especially if you’re supposed to change attachments during performance?

I read the entire description on the site, along with all the supposed improvements. My point is, one holder should have one purpose/use and one only. Attempting to use the same holder for everything is not a good idea, and that is exactly what this device does.

What really bothers me is the price. I can purchase a car for the price of this gimmick!! I’ve never been caught with sleeving things the old fashioned way, and I have no incentive to sign my life away on a piece of metal. That of course doesn’t mean that this gimmick couldn’t truly be sensational. Maybe it is. But if these guys are in it to make money, they’re going with the wrong approach. If they’re trying to protect the secret, why are they selling it…. It just sounds like a scam to me… not to mention they have no video demos whatsoever!... Perhaps because any average magician could see right through the “choreography”. LOL.

Anyways, I have devised a holdout of my own. It allows me to hold any small object in the sleeve until needed. No moving parts, no gizmos, no weights, no magnets NOTHING. It is all done with clothing. I’m quite confident that I have found a much simpler solution to this problem.

Anyways, I’m just shocked at what these guys expect. How can they expect anyone to buy something blindly without even providing a video or something of it in action? I just don’t understand their logic.
Message: Posted by: El_Lamo (Jun 18, 2005 08:00AM)
Walter,

If you don't need it... then they have not lost a sale by not providing a video or something of it in action.
Obviously, there are some people that want and need to buy the hold-out. They can recoup the cost in their shows and performances.
It is not a slight to any of us that don't need it, don't want to spend the money on it or can't spend the money on it.
If it was a scam, those that have bought it... would say so.

It sounds as though, you have developed the perfect holdout for yourself. Congratulations, you are fulfilling your neeeds.

Sometimes, people feel they must access everything before they can make decisions. I am interested in knowing about IT work but it is not important for me yet. When it becomes important, I will progress down that path, but starting with the best and most expensive IT system will not provide me with the grounding that I need. Eventually, my search may lead me in that direction, but maybe not.

Cheers - El Lamo
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Jun 18, 2005 11:19PM)
I saw Thomas Wayne demo’ing the holdout at his booth at LVMI last week. Apparently he did it last year too. So there is one place I know of to see it in use. It’s a really crazy thing to watch.

Walter,

From your post, it doesn’t seem that you understand what a gravity holdout does. You can learn by buying the book “Holdout Miracles” by Ed Mishell for less than five bucks. Check it out, it is interesting reading.
Message: Posted by: WalterZ (Jun 19, 2005 12:49AM)
I own the book and I own the books of wonder also... which is why I'm not understanding the pricing. I have nothing against these guys or their work. Sorry if I came off sounding offensive. But think about it: If you they wanted to make money, why charge such a high fee? If they intend to keep the secret, why are they selling it at all? So what ARE they trying to do?
If they are trying to provide the ultimate variation of the classic holdout by Jack Miller, why can't they show how smooth it is in operation? Or practical?

Anyways, getting back to l_Lamo's comment: Yes I would like to know everything about a utility tool before I buy it. Just imagine buying a $2000.00 laptop and the guys at Fry's electronics keep it in the back and have you read a black and white pamphlet. Would you buy it? You know what the laptop does don't you? So why not spend a "few" bucks on it right?

So anyways, thanks for your input as always guys, but I just don't think it a wise marketing strategy on their part.q
Message: Posted by: Glenn Godsey (Jun 19, 2005 02:54AM)
[quote]
On 2005-06-19 01:49, WalterZ wrote:
.... But think about it: If you they wanted to make money, why charge such a high fee? If they intend to keep the secret, why are they selling it at all? So what ARE they trying to do?
If they are trying to provide the ultimate variation of the classic holdout by Jack Miller, why can't they show how smooth it is in operation? Or practical?....
[/quote]

Certainly some valid and thoughtful questions which should be answered.

Best regards,
Glenn Godsey
Message: Posted by: Karl Miller (Jun 19, 2005 01:13PM)
Q: Why charge such a high fee?

A: Well, if you saw the amount of work that goes into each unit, you would understand. Bob Fitch, Bob Kohler, and Thomas Wayne have solved all of the problems normally associated with gravity holdout work. You are also getting the instructional DVDs, which contain all of Bob Kohler and Bob Fitch's work on the holdout. They are giving you like fifty years of experience here. I think the majority of the people that complain about the price can't afford the price and therefore complain about it because they have nothing better to do. It really is worth more than they are asking. And who in the heck is forcing you to buy the thing? If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Don't knock people because you can't afford it or there isn't a "video demo". They are also in their fourth run of the units, so the pice in not preventing those who are serious from obtaining the device.

Q: Why are they selling it?

A: To elevate your magic to another level. Obviously they are keeping the secret, as you have no idea what it is.

Q: Why no video demos?

A: Bob has his own reasons for this, so I won't get into them for him. I have purchased many products sight unseen and only by reputation. If you want the real work on the holdout, this is it.

I am sure Bob and Thomas will have some input here, but I hope that helped a little.

Take care,
Karl Miller
Message: Posted by: El_Lamo (Jun 19, 2005 04:55PM)
It shouldn't be assumed that because one complains about the price that one can't afford it.

One may not have placed the same value or significance on the item.

Cheers - El Lamo
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jun 19, 2005 05:24PM)
As I mentioned before, I have seen the holdout. I have seen it in action. As far as the necessity for different attachments, well, when you use a holdout you begin to want to have various ways of accomplishing things with it. An attachment that works for some playing cards won't work for a billiard ball. But if you are using the holdout primarily for one purpose, you use the attachment for that purpose. Obviously, you aren't going to change things out in the middle of your act.

But it's not just the holdout, itself. There are things they have done to the hookup that prevent certain types of accidents. I can't say any more than this without exposing.

If you are a professional who wants the best holdout available, this is it.

Walter, if your car cost as little as this holdout, I hope you are a mechanic!
Message: Posted by: Glenn Godsey (Jun 20, 2005 01:41AM)
[quote]
On 2005-06-19 18:24, Bill Palmer wrote:
.....
If you are a professional who wants the best holdout available, this is it.

Walter, if your car cost as little as this holdout, I hope you are a mechanic!
[/quote]
Bill, how hard is it to set up and use in the middle of a real performance? How does it feel to use it?

Many thanks for your info.

Best regards,
glenn Godsey
Message: Posted by: WalterZ (Jun 22, 2005 03:13AM)
In response to your comment Mr. Palmer, I am not a mechanic... I'm a "starving" college student. :)

And Karl, I'd like to say that anyone who's familiar with the Jack Miller holdout should have a pretty good grasp of what this gimmick is... you don't seem to know what you're talking about.
Aside from that, anyone with brains would want to see what they're buying, even if they CAN afford it. If you disagree, then you are simply a spendthrift.

I never claimed that I wanted to see the exact mechanics of the thing. The reason I wanted to see it in action is so that I can judge for myself if the technique truely is improved and not have to take other people's word for it... albeit there have been many credible magicians raving about it.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 22, 2005 02:20PM)
If I wanted to know about or have a good look at the holdout, I'd express my interest to Mr. Fitch or Mr. Kohler directly.
Message: Posted by: Whit Haydn (Jun 24, 2005 01:13PM)
WalterZ:

It is not enough to "know" what a Miller holdout is. If you have ever used one long enough to realize its true potential, you will also have realized some of its limitations.

If you have something so promising that is also frustratingly prone to mistep, difficult to work with, uncomfortable and difficult to set-up; you look for mechanical solutions that will make working with it more pleasant and more sure.

If you have never performed the cups and balls, it is easy to wonder why anyone would spend more than $50 on a set of cups. They are just cups, right? On the other hand, if you have performed for any length of time with the cups, you begin to think of all the little things that would make working with them simpler, more pleasant, and more powerful. Those are the things that should be, and usually are, incorporated in the expensive sets of cups--balance, weight, shape, design, sheen, material, size, etc. all matter when you want "perfection."

What's the difference between a $15 dollar violin from a pawn shop and a Stradavarius? A great musician can make beautiful music with either one. But a great musician would choose the superior instrument if he had a choice. It is more comfortable and responsive in action, has superior tone, and so on. These little differences would mean nothing to someone who was just learning the violin, and may not even be noticeable. But to the expert, the sum of these tiny little improvements are worth a king's ransom--it is like the "pearl of great price."

Most of the complaints that I hear about the price of expensive magic products is the result of people looking at products designed for the pros with the eyes of an amateur. If you don't understand the marketing strategy of Kohler, you are not in his intended demographic.

By making more than one of something you are creating for yourself, you can justify the time and expense invested a little easier. Most of the products that I have released are simply the result of creating the prop of my dreams, and making more of them than I need, and selling them, is simply the most cost effective way for me to have them for myself.

I know that this is similar to the way Bob and Bob developed the holdout.


Posted: Jun 24, 2005 2:48pm
------------------------------------------------
If you buy by the pound and sell to your friends by the kilo; you pay for your time, do your friends a favor, and have what you need for free. It is "Free Enterprise."

Wouldn't you think $75 a ridiculous price to pay for a spark plug? Kyle Petty might not think so.
Message: Posted by: BSutter (Jun 24, 2005 01:58PM)
[quote]
On 2005-06-24 14:48, Whit Haydn wrote:
If you buy by the pound and sell to your friends by the kilo; you pay for your time, do your friends a favor, and have what you need for free. It is "Free Enterprise."

Wouldn't you think $75 a ridiculous price to pay for a spark plug? Kyle Petty might not think so.
[/quote]

If you buy a pound and sell a kilo you lost 1.2 pounds. There are 2.2 pounds in a kilo, now if you purchased a kilo and sold a pound you would be ahead (pun intended)

Bill
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jun 24, 2005 02:09PM)
How many here use a holdout at all? Of you, how many switch attachments in the course of your act? How long did it take to get bruised, tangled, snagged, torn shirts, scratched and more in the process of getting the thing to work. Once you have used a holdout you will likely want to explore ... or abandon it. Those who stuck through the process know. Probably a matter of commitment.
Message: Posted by: WalterZ (Jul 1, 2005 03:17PM)
[quote]
On 2005-06-24 14:13, Whit Haydn wrote:

Most of the complaints that I hear about the price of expensive magic products is the result of people looking at products designed for the pros with the eyes of an amateur. If you don't understand the marketing strategy of Kohler, you are not in his intended demographic.
[/quote]
I would like to think that the quality and quantity of the venues one performs in, and what paying audiences say about a performer, are accurate ways of judging who is professional and who isn’t…

In order to sell a product, we must consider two variables. The consumer must A) Want the product B) be able to afford it. If either of these two variables is missing, the consumer will not make the purchase.
The average “professional” magician (sadly) doesn’t quite make all the much money. Therefore, to say that an expensive product is marketed to professionals isn’t necessarily true at all. The average professional magician that uses a holdout or needs one may desire this particular item, but cannot afford such an investment and thus one variable is missing. If we refer to the supply and demand curve in economics, we see that when quantity demanded is greater than the quantity supplied, we get what economists refer to as a shortage. Needless to say, a shortage is not an efficient way to maximize producer surplus (technical term for profits, well-being etc...).
However, there’s another flaw in your claim: not all professional magicians utilize a holdout and on the other hand, some amateurs might. What makes you think that only professionals belong to this category?


Posted: Jul 1, 2005 4:42pm
----------------------------------------
If the building materials really did cost a tremendous amount, then I agree completely with your philosophy of free enterprise.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jul 1, 2005 04:10PM)
Guys, at least the Bob's have made the holdout available. Some folks have waited over twenty years to get such a thing. There is the intended market. The sorry critters who just want everything for free are not the intended market.

To those who would like to discuss the economics of OTHER people's businesses, I recommend reading Ayn Rand's book [i]Atlas Shrugged[/i].

Just so you know, I have taken most of my work into a private market and the only way to get my stuff is to treat it as secret, NOT to be discussed on any BBS etc. A low price unless you feel the need to gossip or show off to magicians. There is no free lunch.
Message: Posted by: Robert Fitch (Aug 9, 2005 08:56PM)
Wow...haven't looked at this post in a long time...still lots of quibbling over price, value, practicality and efficiency....From a left brained perspective, I would probably argue those same ideas. I tend however to know that mine and Bob Kohler's product with the help of Thomas Wayne is conceived from a Right brained perspective. I've used it for 51 years, Bob, perhaps for 18...I was someone who stuck with the holdout despite its awkward problems. I got Bob Kohler interested in its use. Together we bemoaned the problems inherent in the Jack Miller model...

Together we outlined the problems and decided that we would like to fix them; reasoning that those problems were the reasons so few people could use it in a practical fashion. The solutions are major....(You can read about them on Bob K's website <www.bobkohlermagic.com> But briefly: You can take off and put on your coat without mishaps....You can adjust its length simply without retying string or readjusting pins...you can change ends, i.e. on and off, with one hand...the holdout can change weights for different coats or a shirt even....the "business end" doesn't have all its weight and paraphenalia at the wrist....some attachments are symmetrical...e.g. cigarette or silk holders...some are not, eg..ball ends. We wanted the HO to deliver the ends directly to the hand in the proper position and not jiggle from side to side...ours does that.....We approached Tommy Wonder about buying his lock, a brilliant idea outlined in his book...He wanted $750.00 for each one....I don't think so...besides we wanted a lock that would stay locked when not in use and when in use wouldn't lock....Thomas Wayne figured it our. Its made of
stainless steele and the hardest plastic.....There are new attachments and newer ones coming up......Did you see the LVMI (Danny Archer) DVD? I used a holdout and topit and sleeving and pocketing....Did you see the first Chris Angel Special? He used a HO....Also its enclosed in a beautiful leather case by Joe Porper.

Its an expensive item to make. Lots of exacting machining. We have a combined experience of 69 years. Make money? Sure...I'd like to...I wouldn't have released it at all, if it hadn't been for Bob Kohler, who talked me into it. To me its one of the last great secrets and needs to have the respect that our information age doesn't usually allow. With my attachment included...there are 7 DVD's explaining the use, care, wearing, getting objects, getting rid of objects and routines with all of the attachments. 2 DVD's alone on mine. Everyone who's used it have touted its effectiveness and stealth and relative simplicity to use (after practice, of course)...I wanted my work to stand on its own...to further the art in magic...

We didn't want it ripped off by the "Masked magician" or unethical dealers. That's why we hold it close to the belt. The magi that we swore to secrecy, who would also go to court for us as witnesses in case of fraud...after seeing it most of them bought it. No, we don't advertise...though its listed on our websites. Ads are expensive and usually are for the general reader...there's not that much profit...and those that feel they have a special need to do something that much better or to solve a problem that only a HO cam solve know where to go to get it. And if they get it ... they don't talk about it. They don't really want anyone to know that they've got it. It speaks for itself....So I hope this solves the incomprehensible querying and nattering that's ensued. But I suppose the frustrations of those that feel they have the right to know everything will still be heard....I am glad I released it. I'm proud of our work with it. I know its a major contribution to the world of magic. And I thank all of you who have come to its defense. Bob Fitch
Message: Posted by: kentfgunn (Aug 16, 2005 07:16PM)
I have seen the Fitch-Kohler holdout in operation. It's worth every penny they're charging for it. I rigged up a gravity hold-out after buying Hold Out Miracles. Fishing weights and line, what a mess that was. I did not have the perserverence to make it work, for me. I sensed the power of the device. I was not smart enough to go on with it.

I liken the Hold-out to a Topit. It is a utility device. Either of these devices can be used to drastically alter most every effect you do. They are places/mechanisms to invisibly store or hide objects. The Topit and Hold-out also take an extraordinary amount of practice to master. Of course, really good magic takes that amount in all cases, but I digress . . . I have found the Hold-out to be more useful, to me than a Topit. I happen to use both, but find myself relying more and more on the Hold-out. What you vanish with it is available with a well timed and synchronized motion, to be delivered into your hand, whenever you desire.

If you don't think it's worth the money, don't buy it. Not all secrets in magic have been available for everyone's perusual. Mssrs. Fitch and Kohler don't need to advertise or make any money at all from the Hold-Out. They both have tremendously lucrative careers. Quit debating the validity of their marketing scheme. They don't have one. The darned thing is a result of the two of them jamming on the idea and then making it the very best they could. How many props or utility devices in magic can you say that for???

Kohler is one of the best freaking magicians out there, period. If you ever get the chance to see him perform, in any venue, run, don't walk, to see him. He will fool and entertain you. He thinks things through completely. Go to Bob's website and buy Aces in Their Faces. I think he wants twenty bucks for it. It will give you an inkling of how sharp this guy is. His routines are published in his own works and by well-informed folks, like John Bannon.
Bob will kill you with the Hold-out.

Bob Fitch, who I've only seen on his Topit DVDs and the Hold-Out DVDs is a national treasure. He's got more time on the Broadway stage than most magicians could even conceive of. I learned more from the DVDs mentioned above, about how to incorporate my entire body into motions than I dreamed existed. For that prodigious sum they charge you don't just get some bubble gum and string, you are exchanging value for these two gentlemen's collective knowledge!

The DVDs are invaluable. Get Fitch's DVDs on the Topit. Pay attention to what he teaches. If you, like me, think they're the best value for the money in magic, then consider dropping a few bucks on the hold-out.

This is my first posting here. I am not economically connected to Bob Kohler or Mr. Fitch in any way. Heck, I don't know one of them at all and Kohler couldn't pick me out of a line-up. The hold is worth the asking price, to me.

Kent F. Gunn
RC California
Message: Posted by: Robert Fitch (Oct 23, 2005 10:59PM)
I mentioned Chris Angel's use of the holdout in his first special...Again he used it in his blowing up the box segment. If you've recorded his shows, I'm sure you'll figure out which effect this was used for.

Bob Fitch
Message: Posted by: sleight king (Nov 1, 2005 06:21AM)
You are spot on Walter Z with the comments. Oh I have seen it in action on the LVMI tapes and I reckon I can do pretty much excat routine with antonio romeros perfect holdout. by the by I would still prefer to watch shoot ogawa and many others than Bob Fitch doing the holdout piece. Entertainment!!!!!!!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 1, 2005 06:45AM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-01 07:21, sleight king wrote:...I would still prefer to watch shoot ogawa and many others than Bob Fitch doing the holdout piece. Entertainment!!!!!!!
[/quote]

Ouch! I spent hours with Bob in Tannen's and down in the Howard Johnson's below Tannen's magic shop. I would not consider that time mispent. As to methods... they are just methods.
Message: Posted by: kcedelcycib (Nov 1, 2005 07:09AM)
Looks like Criss might have used it in his Halloween special too.
Message: Posted by: sleight king (Nov 1, 2005 09:06AM)
Jonathan that's right the method is not that important if the effect works. [b]So here is a question for the bobs. What effect can your holdout do which I couldn't do with another holdout.[/b]
Message: Posted by: Gluestick (Nov 2, 2005 03:30AM)
I know there are folks that want the Ferrari of holdouts or whatever proline of material comes out


That's their free choice and good for them if they want to invest or spend so much money. I know from experience it doesn't make you instantly the best or even good


These days magicians appear to be getting as good at using their 'guile' to market to each other as they are at doing shows for real people


So many can be persuaded that they will be better at something if they clip on a gimmick. The secret 99% of the time has to be that practice and experience needs to come first


Personally I love being able to do my effects without relying on extreme expense, using stuff that can be easily replaced



I saw Me Fitch perform using the holdout at Blackpool a while back. His holdout was doing all the stuff that mine does.& maybe not as well IMO



He was working the horseshoe arena at the time. The working environment was noisy, the crowd big. the conditions poor and people got fed up with what appeared to be an endless impromptu routine of coins appearing and disappearing without any apparent motivation other than a story patterline that could barely be heard above the din



If the holdout is so good why are they advertising it on the internet and engaging in conversation in forums like this, making the whole world aware of such an excellent magicians device. Is this magic or marketing?



Why are you guys complaining about exposure on Wikipedia?



When things get as complex as this


I think I prefer 'free knowledge' to marketing



I know someone who has threatened to write an expose on the holdout on the Wiki for a laugh. I had to get real mad to get them to promise not to



I reckon theres a hornets nest being stirred up here



and again the 'short term' entrepeneur will win and the magician will lose out
Message: Posted by: sleight king (Nov 2, 2005 05:19AM)
Here here I saw Bob Fitch doing his thing with the holdout at blackpool and well I didn't see it all as it was boring me silly so I went for a smoke. Now there's a question, what is better value for money, the holdout or a pack of cigarettes
Message: Posted by: Philipp K (Nov 2, 2005 01:14PM)
Bob,
didn't you use the Holdout on the Mystery School video ?
(I'm talking about the 30 minutes video recorded for television)

I think you did a one and a four coin appearance and vanish wich blew me away.

Thank you for that feeling
Philipp
Message: Posted by: sleight king (Nov 3, 2005 04:57AM)
You are easily blown away from what I can see
Message: Posted by: Philipp K (Nov 3, 2005 11:39AM)
How can you tell ?

Did you see the video ?
If you did, you'd know what I mean.
Those vanishes were simply beautiful.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 3, 2005 06:15PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-02 04:30, Gluestick wrote:
I know there are folks that want the Ferrari of holdouts or whatever proline of material comes out


That's their free choice and good for them if they want to invest or spend so much money. I know from experience it doesn't make you instantly the best or even good


These days magicians appear to be getting as good at using their 'guile' to market to each other as they are at doing shows for real people


So many can be persuaded that they will be better at something if they clip on a gimmick. The secret 99% of the time has to be that practice and experience needs to come first


Personally I love being able to do my effects without relying on extreme expense, using stuff that can be easily replaced



I saw Me Fitch perform using the holdout at Blackpool a while back. His holdout was doing all the stuff that mine does.& maybe not as well IMO



He was working the horseshoe arena at the time. The working environment was noisy, the crowd big. the conditions poor and people got fed up with what appeared to be an endless impromptu routine of coins appearing and disappearing without any apparent motivation other than a story patterline that could barely be heard above the din



If the holdout is so good why are they advertising it on the internet and engaging in conversation in forums like this, making the whole world aware of such an excellent magicians device. Is this magic or marketing?



Why are you guys complaining about exposure on Wikipedia?



When things get as complex as this


I think I prefer 'free knowledge' to marketing



I know someone who has threatened to write an expose on the holdout on the Wiki for a laugh. I had to get real mad to get them to promise not to



I reckon theres a hornets nest being stirred up here



and again the 'short term' entrepeneur will win and the magician will lose out
[/quote]

So what if they advertise it? Big deal. So what if they lease it at a huge fee? Their lessees seem satisfied. I've seen the actual holdout. Bob Kohler showed it to me at the Collector's weekend. It's a nifty piece of work. If I worked with a holdout, I would probably lease one of them.

The chief advantage that I see with it is that you can change out the parts that need to be changed out for various purposes without having to readjust anything. And there are lots of attachments.

Nobody has ever said, with respect to any piece of apparatus -- "This will instantly make you a good magician." Neither has Bob or Bob.

I have a question, though? If someone wanted to obtain one of yours, where would they go? Who would they ask? "Gluestick" is a name that doesn't really tell us who you are.
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Nov 5, 2005 09:14PM)
Let me see, I have a "Sleight King" whose incredibly original "occupation" is "close up kinda guy" (thank you Paul Harris, 25 years later!), and an apparent "marketing expert", who by his own admission is a "starving college student", and whose also incredible "originality" extends to his attire: Top hat and tails, and a pair of card fans. Both these naysayers are cliche-ridden parodies of magicians who would have you believe that they have more of value to say about an item they haven't ever used than the creators. To top it off, they offer no facts about anything, because they don't have any - they haven't used the holdout! And, they hide behind screen names, providing no identities or credentials. No accountability...

Those other guys, the two Bobs, have decades of experience in performing, magic and otherwise (Mr. Fitch), and mountains of accolades from their peers for many things, magical and otherwise, even excluding the item under discussion. So, as to the credibility issue, well, I don't guess there is one. Who are you going to listen to?

When the "Sleight King" is told that another forum member was blown away by Bob's use of the H/O his response is to denigrate the member! Ad Hominem attack - the last refuge of a man with no argument!

This is simple: Mr. Kohler and Mr. Fitch produced, with Thomas Wayne, a holdout, and offered to lease it to anyone willing to pay the price. They are open about the product, have given guidelines for ownership, and have priced it according to their estimate of its' value. No hidden agendas' I can see. Buy, or don't.

What are the agendas of the "experts", though, who would decide for everyone else what is or isn't fair. They do this at no risk to themselves, and with plenty of obvious animosity. They feel no remorse about the damage they do others reputations or business. And they use the old "throw mud on a guy, then call him dirty" ploy. Again, all at no risk to themselves.

Don't worry, they'll deny all this, they'll nitpick the words, and deny culpability, but you can read between their lines. Remember, they've never worked with the item in question, but they would have you believe that even lacking that knowledge they [b]know[/b] that they can duplicate, in fact better, the effects of the K/F holdout with nothing more than "spit and chewing gum". Well, I've been in magic for forty years, and handled every type of holdout you can imagine, magical and gambling. Toe Extensions, Chest Expansions, Kepplingers, Pocketbooks, Lazy Susans, Jack Miller, Knee Spreads, the list goes on and on. And [b]I don't know[/b] all I need to know to make an informed decision about this Holdout - how can they?

Their views have no value, their words are harmful, and they don't care. Choose carefully here gentlemen, and ladies, - consider the sources from which you take advice and make decisions. And ask yourself why these "experts" are so mean-spirited, so willing to cause harm to people they don't even know...

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Nov 5, 2005 10:09PM)
It's very easy, Paul. These fellows can make their judgments because they are anonymous posters who have some kind of odd agenda. It's probably to see how much damage they can do to Bob and Bob.

I didn't tip everything I know about the holdout. I tipped what Bob will let me tip. While I haven't worked with the Kiplinger holdout, I have worked with some rather exotic ones. I've made my own. I've done all of the rigging and fooling around that people who are experimenting with these things do. In the final analysis, I'm too busy to waste a lot of time jury rigging some pieces of line, a couple of rings, a wristband and a weight that may or may not work reliably, when for a reasonable price, I can have a professional unit that eliminates all of the fumbling and guesswork.

The pro's here know what they are getting. And they are not disappointed.
Message: Posted by: Paul Chosse (Nov 5, 2005 10:40PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-05 23:09, Bill Palmer wrote:
It's very easy, Paul. These fellows can make their judgments because they are anonymous posters who have some kind of odd agenda. It's probably to see how much damage they can do to Bob and Bob...

The pro's here know what they are getting. And they are not disappointed.
[/quote]
The question was, as you know Bill, a rhetorical one. I'm glad to see you reinforcing the facts, though. Hidden agendas, mean-spirited postings, and anonymity abound!

On the other hand though, and far outweighing the gnat-like buzzing of the "psuedo-experts", are the opinions of the [b]owners[/b] of the system, who also posted here.

And yes, the pro's do know, and no, they aren't disappointed. The reviews speak for themselves. Whit Haydn posted favorably, and I would trust his judgment absolutely. Other folks in other forums and on other threads have responded in kind. And, under their own names! Amazing huh? There seems to be a stunning lack of anonymity amongst the folks who have the courage of their convictions, and whose views are supported by the [b]facts[/b]...

Best, PSC
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Nov 6, 2005 12:00AM)
To this day I can still vividly remember when I first met Bob Fitch almost 5 years ago. I thought at the time I was pretty knowledgeable and pretty decent with coin magic. I never heard of a holdout, had no clue what it is.

It was after a lecture Bob Kohler's... Fitch starts messing around with some coins, so I watch. I could follow some of it, catch a flash here or there if I was at the right angle... but then, he could really make the coin vanish...

He did stuff that night that crushed me so bad. I came to grips that night that there was a whole other level of coin magic that you can't get in the books or on DVD... Bob got me so bad that I really was second guessing what I knew about coin magic. What I knew seemed fake. What I saw Bob do was real.

Years later I now know that my story is not alone, I was just one of the many that got destroyed by his holdout work. And he wasn't doing structured routines, he was just jazzing.

One of the unfortunate things that happened when the Bob's released this device is that they made it's existence known. I doubt either Bob can ever walk into a room of magicians again wearing a jackets, without most of them guessing what they are wearing.

I am so glad that I first got to meet Fitch before I knew... It is such a big difference watching him do his work not having a clue what is going on versus simple knowing the device exists (even if you don't know exactly how it works).

It really upsets me to see the lack of respect shown by nameless nobodies hiding behind their computer screens to a man who gave me the present of one of my most memorable and magical encounters in my life.
Message: Posted by: Count Zapik (Nov 7, 2005 03:02AM)
I too believe our sticky friend overreached themselves.

More abrasive than sticky in fact.

Although I’m not sure there was any malice intended for the Bobs Fitch & Kohler.

Any body in our field knows both to be excellent ambassadors of magical excellence.

Of the two I’ve seen Bob Kohler performing and can confirm his immense ability…I reckon he’s among the top 10 magicians I’ve seen working…. and a really nice & extremely clever guy. I’ve had the chance to talk to him personally and on email on a number of past occasions concerning U3F. He was always very helpful to me.

I’ve heard of Bob Fitch but don’t really know any more than that apart from his association with the H/O, and the very high standing in which he is held.

It’s however maybe probably wrong to conclude that personal malice was intended in the offending message. I can’t see it looking obvious on reading the messages.

That ‘so and so is highly unlikely to rejoin the fray whilst there appears to be a ‘feeding frenzy’ for blood.

It might be better to see if there is a point being made, on the assumption that there are in fact very few bad people in the world. Disagreeing with someone doesn’t make him or her bad. Because they were speaking with too aggressive a voice can be forgiven if they can apologise.

I think it would be good if Monsieur Sticky were to rejoin this conversation to make some apology…. because it is needed! Sticky used too blunt an instrument to get any particular message across. Personally I’d like to know more of what was meant’.

I do think the cause for the outburst is more likely to be disappointment at one of magic’s last really great secrets becoming too well known & entering a very public arena.

I didn’t know about H/O’s myself until the Fitch/Kohler thing first started making ripples a couple of years back.

Since then I’ve used the Internet to find out a lot about it. And to be quite honest I wish it hadn’t been so easy.

The device is deadly, and so clever, even in its simplest forms.

I too, as a magician, would prefer it if there were more material that didn’t get made so public. Magicians just cannot hang onto their knowledge and keep it covert.

Even if it means I don’t get to find out. I’d be that happy to know that magicians were in control of their own material and it wasn’t all in the hands of commerce and ‘retail therapy’. A free market economy is not the greatest or most noble ambassador for our kind of genius, although I can see that for us in the west that might be too hard a concept to grasp.

I wish the undoubted magic acumen of Fitch & Kohler had found a better way of delivering their excellent product to the magical fraternity. As it is, it does appear as if anyone with ‘lots of dosh’ & an average talent can get hold of a device that ought only to be in the hands of proven and gifted practitioners. There are far too many amateur ham fisted fantasists who, every time they do a trick, reveal far more than they conceal.

In truth there are maybe comparatively few people who do good magic well.

Maybe we need a magic underground network. I would love it if there were another closed and secret tier to the Magic Café, which was only for the proven initiated. Even if I wasn’t allowed in! I would just like to feel that magicians at some level were in a safe pair of hands. [I know its all fantasy!].

I reckon Mr Sticky feels peeked or aggrieved that a personal secret weapon has been ‘set up’ to move the same way as the once very clever TT.

And it will do.

We also know that there are many other magicians who also feel this way. This issue isn’t just a flash in the pan because few dare voice an opinion. Because most don’t post doesn’t mean they don’t think.

The Café as it stands is not the easiest or best place to discuss these things. In fact it might be best to avoid personal philosophies and viewpoints completely. [Personally I’m just doing ‘happy magic’ posts from now on].

I wouldn’t mind if Steve Brooks decided to wipe all references to this thread off the records. It’s not a particularly nice one is it? And it gives away too much material for the merely inquisitive to follow up. It’s precisely stuff like this that made me inquisitive enough to find out, and I did it without paying a dealer a dime.

In many ways I do see ‘Stickies’ point…but they were foolish to try and swim against the current tide. And I reckon their avatar might be murdered if it dares to try and come back.

But underlying Stickies mischief there may be an issue here worth wondering about?

…Just in passing.

Momentarily before it’s too late and the tide sweeps over all of us anyway.
Message: Posted by: tommy (Nov 7, 2005 05:36AM)
Jim Swain shows an hold out in action at his site, if memory serves.
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Nov 7, 2005 09:16AM)
Zapik, the posts questioning what can Bob's holdout do that other Miller style's can't is a valid question. I don't think the comments about being bored watching Bob and than anyone blown away by Bob, gets blown away easily were called for. Even if you were bored, why post such a thing in a public forum? It's just mean spirited.
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Nov 8, 2005 12:09PM)
It's interesting to check in occasionally to see what's happening at the old Café. Some interesting observations. Here are a couple of thoughts we had while attempting to figure out the best way to share our holdout solutions with the magic community.

First, my main initial motivation was to make sure that the magic world was aware of Bob Fitch. He blew me away with his use of the holdout in the early '80's. Behind the scenes Bob worked with and was a major influence to a lot of working pros including but not limited to David Copperfield, Jeff McBride and many more.

But the community at large was unaware of Bob's talents. After a multitude of major Broadway shows and over 250 nationally televised commercials I can tell you that Bob has an eye for performance that sets him apart from the rest. His observations are priceless. To get him to critique your act would be one of the smartest things you could possibly do.

When we were attempting to release our work on the holdout we had many challenges. How to make it.
How to release it without seriously compromising the secrets etc.

It's been available now for a little over two years. As far as we're concerned the release has been successful. Many thought the license would kill the project. Many thought it was too expensive.

Those who have the system know how complex the project is. It's extremely diffcult to manufacture with literally hundreds of steps. Creating 7 DVD's of training took a ton of time and effort.

I judge our success by customer satisfaction. 100% of the users were blown away by the final product.
Out of all of the units we've shipped only two have changed hands. The circumstances that forced the tranfers were both due to financial hardship/health issues.

Our system is essentially a tool set. How magicians choose to use it and how well each performer handles it is completely out of our hands. I can tell you this. Holdout work give magicians a tool that creates miracles. The Mishell book is title "Holdout Miracles."

I've fooled countless well informed magicians with the holdout during my career. Laymen don't stand a chance. I'll share a story about my first day at the Magic Castle to make the point. I had lunch with the Professor. After lunch he asked me to do a trick for him. I was wearing the system so I did two tricks for him. Vernon ran around (he was in his early '90's at the time and yes, he was running} and he comes back with Albert Goshman and about 20 other guys. So I do a couple more, nobody has a clue what I'm using to fool them.

I'd been using the holdout at trade shows to perform Goshman's classic Salt Shaker routine. I had it down pat. So I ask him if I can do it for him (yes, I'm an idiot) he says OK and we all go down to the close up gallery. We find a couple of laymen for me to do it for and I do the show.

The effect looks much the same as Albert's but the choreography plus using the holdout for [b]complete[/b] coin vanishes for each phase has them all stunned. I'm watching their eyes. I know they're fooled. Vernon and everybody rave about the show. Then Vernon looks at Goshman and asks him "what do you think about the kid?" Goshman answers "He's got a ****ty classic palm." (This is a direct quote, don't edit it out!!!) Everybody laughs...the truth is I never classic palmed a coin the during the entire routine!

That night I went to one of Albert's last performances at the Castle before he passed away. After they introduced him he spotted me in the crowd. He did one of the greatest close up shows I've ever seen.
After the show he told me "kid, you can really do the moves but you can't entertain like me!" It was one of the best days of my life.

Having the holdout as a "secret" weapon is most important. These days if Mr. Fitch or me show up wearing any clothes at all, everybody thinks if we fool them we used a holdout. Maybe...

We also get a lot of guys who try to sneak around to find a bad angle. Hey, whatever turns you on.

The main reason I decided not to put a ton of little holdout video demo clips up on the internet is there's just know way you're going to get the feeling that good holdout magic can give you. You'll know in advance of the method and you'll watch it a million times until you think you've figured it out.

Holdout work opens unlimited horizons. On the training DVD's we are teaching the use of the tool. We perform many examples but there's so much more we just didn't have the time to get into.

Another question that seems to pop up is comparisons between the holdouts currently on the market.
To me there's just no comparison. I have all of them, I've used all of them. None of the holdouts out there really are professional in my opinion. They all suffer ione fatal flaw or another.

I constantly have been getting letters about when the next batch will be ready. I should have them back in stock in December. Another question is how much longer will we be making the system. The answer is I really don't know. Our system uses a lot of very expensive, high impact plastics which are an oil based product. The cost are going up, way up. Thomas Wayne is the only craftsman who can make it. His main business is not making magic. If he decides it's too much work for the price that could be the straw that breaks the camels back. My best guess is we'll makes systems only every few years after this batch.
We want to make other attachments we've had on the books for years. This way we'll have the time.

I do have one personal opinion I'd like to share. I really wish everybody on all of the magic forums would change and use their real name. When you read a post from Paul Chosse, Paul Green, Dan Watkins, Bill Palmer and many others you know who they are because they stand behind what they post by using [b]their name[/b].

Personally I just don't read, correspond or answer posts by people with names like "Sleight King" or "Gluestick." If he or she really were a sleight king wouldn't we either know about them or they would want us to know who they are. I feel that using a fake name is like wearing a mask. I guess this is OK if you're really Zorro, going to a Halloween party or are robbing a convenience store...just my two cents. Change your log in to your real name! If all of us that use are real name just plain stop answering any post by those afraid to use their real name, the Café and the Genii Forums would be much more useful to all of us.
Message: Posted by: Sean Macfarlane (Aug 28, 2006 06:36AM)
I got a chance to witness the miracles that can be done with this hold out just recently here in Hong Kong. All I can say is WOW! I did get a chance to see how it works too, its like something out of a James Bond movie. My post is to the users of this wonderful tool. Its so clean, do you ever get people going for the sleeves? I mean, how else could it be done right?

Even when I work, and I wearing jacket, people will assume I am using my sleeves, even when its so far fetched that I am not. I have been challenged a number of times too to do my magic without a jacket on. These are walkaround conditions where you get all kinds of requests due to the informal nature of the performing situation.

It seems to me this tool would be best when performing parlour, do any of the users use if for walkaround?

And is their a card attachement for this too. I didn't get to see all the attachments either. You can pm me if you feel its that's more appropriate. Thanks.

Best,

Sean


Posted: Aug 28, 2006 7:39am
------------------------------------------
I should also ask, if any Black Widow users have Fitch/Koher holdouts, and how they compare to each other.

Best,

Sean
Message: Posted by: Micheal Leath (Aug 28, 2006 06:46PM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-28 07:36, Sean Macfarlane wrote:
I got a chance to witness the miracles that can be done with this hold out just recently here in Hong Kong. All I can say is WOW! I did get a chance to see how it works too, its like something out of a James Bond movie.
[/quote]

Don't those who lease the hold-out sign an agreement not to reveal the workings of it to anyone?
Message: Posted by: RandyStewart (Aug 28, 2006 08:33PM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-28 19:46, Micheal Leath wrote:
[quote]
On 2006-08-28 07:36, Sean Macfarlane wrote:
I got a chance to witness the miracles that can be done with this hold out just recently here in Hong Kong. All I can say is WOW! I did get a chance to see how it works too, its like something out of a James Bond movie.
[/quote]

Don't those who lease the hold-out sign an agreement not to reveal the workings of it to anyone?
[/quote]

Can't speak for others but many who have leased the holdout will tell you something along the lines of "having to kill ya if they showed ya"...
Message: Posted by: Sean Macfarlane (Aug 29, 2006 07:30AM)
I hear ya guys, what can I say. He wasn't that practiced and he overdid it when he showed me. Eventually I caught him. So he revealed it to me. I didn't really see the whole thing, just the attachment he was using and another one that he had on him. I guess I was just lucky to get a birds eye view. He was kind of anxious to show me too.

Anyhow, if you don't want to talk about it, I understand. Its a great tool, no doubt about it. I was just wondering about some issues. But since I don't own one I guess its not my right to know.

Anyone can PM me if they want to share or gripe about how this guys exposed it to me. I don't think he is stupid enough to share it with anyone else though. Then again who knows.

Sean
Message: Posted by: sullivanl (Aug 29, 2006 07:33AM)
Who was this guy that revealed it? He does not sound very professional to me... not even spending the time to master such an exclusive device.
Message: Posted by: Sean Macfarlane (Aug 29, 2006 07:35AM)
He was good actually, but just over did it, the vanishes were soooooo clean, so I did suspect the sleeves. So I was burning him and I caught a glimpse. Once I told him he flashed he caved and showed me.
Message: Posted by: sullivanl (Aug 29, 2006 07:50AM)
Wow, well I guess you were one of a lucky few to witness it in person. I wonder what Mr. Kohler would think about this man who revealed the device? Did it make you want to buy a F/K holdout? Can you share any other insights? Do you think the Black Widow is better?
Message: Posted by: Sean Macfarlane (Aug 29, 2006 07:53AM)
Have no idea about the Black Widow, never seen it. I shouldn't say who this guy is either. All I can say is if I could get one I would! Its really unbelievable. But they are not being made anymore. I don't think?

Sean
Message: Posted by: Bob Kohler (Aug 29, 2006 04:13PM)
Greetings,
Actually the Fitch Kohler Professional Holdout System is still available on a limited basis. I'm expecting a batch of 20 units in about one week. When they arrive I'll list them as "in stock" on my website at http://www.bobkohlermagic.com.
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Aug 29, 2006 05:35PM)
I perform banjo setup as a hobby. I don't get paid for it, but I know what I'm doing, and I purchase the best tools for the job.

I don't buy cheap wrenches or cheap files, because they don't last as long as good ones.

For example, the inexpensive tools made in some third world countries generally do not hold up as well as the tools from major tool manufacturers. So, I buy Crescent® sdjustable wrenches and similar quality hand tools.

Some of these inexpensive holdouts will work just fine, but they aren't as versatile as the one that the Bobs make. I haven't seen the Black Widow yet, so I won't pass judgment on it, even though I have been told by one dealer how they are made.

The Fitch-Kohler holdout really needs no justification. If you are part of the target group for which it is made, you will buy one. If not, you will purchase something else.

It's that way with everything from cups to cars. Most of us don't need a Ferrari, a Mercedes, a Beamer or a Rolls. But the people who own them like them. So who's to say that their manufacturers are ripping people off or that the customers are paying too much if they get what they feel they want and need?

I can do most of what ANY of your holdouts will do with a piece of parachute cord, a weight, a clothes pin, a leather watchband and a few other oddments. It won't cost me more than a buck or so. But it will eventually damage my clothing, mess up my wrist, and it won't be as instantly changeable as the Fitch-Kohler system.

I've seen some really funny things passed off as holdouts.
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Aug 30, 2006 08:50AM)
[quote]
On 2006-08-28 07:36, Sean Macfarlane wrote:
I should also ask, if any Black Widow users have Fitch/Koher holdouts, and how they compare to each other.
[/quote]

Sean,

While I am not a user, I had the opportunity to see (and put on my arm and try out) a friend's Black Widow. I also first saw the FK Holdout system in 2002 when Kohler showed it to a group of people at LVMI along with a demo of some effects. I have also been able to see privately some of the unpublished mind blowing applications Bob uses it for when I stayed at his house when filming my DVD, Coin Man Walking.

So even though I don't perform with both of those holdouts, I am familiar with them on a technical level. They are completely different designs with completely different princples behind their mechanics.

Out of respect for both creators I don't want to really divulge anything that is not in their marketing.

From the Hocus Pocus website you can read the following:

1. The black widow was designed to do one thing very well. That one thing is switch (or vanish) an item in a spectator's hand by waving your hand over theirs.
2. It is worn on your arm with an additional single anchor point.
3. It actuates by extending the arm forward and backward.

The FK Holdout is a type of gravity holdout.

1. It is designed to do many things well and has 10 different attachments for various uses.
2. It is a gravity holdout so it is not actually worn on your arm, it is worn inside your jacket. It anchors to your opposite arm.
3. Moving the opposite arm causes the gravity holdout to raise or lower.

A gravity holdout is designed to vanish or switch out almost any object typically in your own hand. This is usually done with your hand casually at your side since the force of gravity is what lowers the holdout. So the vanishing/switching is done during an offbeat moment. The FK holdout however can be used for some direct uses not typical to gravity because of its innovative design, I can't really talk about this more because Bob doesn't in his advertising.

The BW is designed to vanish or switch out specific types of objects from your spectator's hand since it does not actuate with your hand at your side, but rather it extends when you push your hand out in front of your body. If you read the lengthy thread on the BW [url=http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=165197&forum=109]HERE[/url] you can properly ascertain that the objects to be vanished need to have a certain charateristic, or modified in some way. Also because of the design, if you wanted to switch an object or vanish an object in your own hand you would have to coreograph a reason to extend your arm in front of you (probably reaching for another object, etc.) So the movement neccessary to actuate it is less offbeat because it is not gravity, but rather an active arm motion forward to use it.

The FK Holdout could probably vanish an object from a spectator's hand, but it is not as well suited to that specific task as the BW is. The FK Holdout is overall more versatile because of its various attachments.
Message: Posted by: Sean Macfarlane (Aug 30, 2006 11:18AM)
Great post Dan, very informative!

Sean
Message: Posted by: pradell (Aug 31, 2006 01:15AM)
To become more educated regarding this device, visit http://www.bobkohlermagic.com/products/holdout.html and read more about the history and the prop itself. But before you purchase this unique and very well made thing that shall not be seen, go to http://www.bobkohlermagic.com/products/holdoutagreement.html and read the licensing agreement. Be sure you are familiar with its terms and agree to lease this product according to all of the rules before you purchase it.
I have seen the prop. Thomas Wayne has made and improved magical illusions which I own. The quality of the work is superior. But it is truly not for everyone. And this, too, is one of the reasons that the price is where it is. This keeps the device out of the reach of the weekend magician and reserves it for professionals who have a need and a desire for this item, and can find a purpose for it in their individual acts.

:magicrabbit:
Message: Posted by: Sean Macfarlane (Aug 31, 2006 03:36AM)
Thomas Wayne is truly an excellent craftsman no doubt about it! I own his wand and have seen his stuff for sale at his booth at the LVMI. I have also seen the holdout and its quality. He also makes some pretty nice leather cases too for the close up magician. Not sure if he makes them anymore, I sure would like to recieve mine that I ordered over one year ago!

Sean
Message: Posted by: sullivanl (Sep 7, 2006 11:43AM)
You didn't recieve your leather close-up case ordered over a year ago from Thomas Wayne?!!

I suggest trying to contact him, if you haven't done so already, and if that doesn't work file a complaint and get a refund via paypal.
Message: Posted by: cheekychap (Nov 21, 2006 10:57AM)
Are there any holdout DVDs?
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Nov 26, 2006 04:34PM)
I'm just a dum old comedy magician. I have no desire to be the slickest guy there is, but in reading this thread I don't know if we are talking about coins, cards, manipulation, or what. If this darn system is so good showing the world a demo will reveal nothing, but the power everyone in the in crowd is talking about. I promise not to look at the man behind the curtain Bob. Give us a demo so I too can smugly brag that I saw it once too.
Al Angello
Message: Posted by: Review King (Nov 26, 2006 05:36PM)
At a price tag of $1995.00, if I bought this, I'd be just as happy without any demo clips available. I'm sure plenty of close confidants of the two Bob's have seen it live and we've all heard the miracles that can be performed with it.

Like Bill Plamer says, if you are part of the target group for which it is aimed at, you will buy one.

Just my thoughts.

Chris
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Nov 26, 2006 09:19PM)
AFAIK there is plenty of video of the FK holdout in action.

But it seems silly to point it out.

It's a holdout and not seen directly.

According to Bob Fitch and others associated with the project it's a wonderfully designed and practical thing which has built-in solutions to several problems one encounters when using a gravity holdout in real-world conditions.

So if you are out in the trenches performing and already using a holdout... you may already have good reason to seek out this device.
Message: Posted by: Al Angello (Nov 27, 2006 06:41AM)
If mere mortals can not see the emperors new clothes, why then is he marching in a parade? Why has there been 71 posts made on the CIA's new top secret project?

Magic Chris,
You forgot to say, "HA HA HA!"
Al


Posted: Nov 27, 2006 12:32pm
---------------------------------------------
Ok, a kind member of the Café PMed me with the general idea what you guys are talking about, so I have no more questions.
Al Angello
Message: Posted by: Review King (Dec 3, 2006 06:20PM)
[quote]
On 2006-11-27 07:41, Al Angello wrote:
If mere mortals can not see the emperors new clothes, why then is he marching in a parade? Why has there been 71 posts made on the CIA's new top secret project?

Magic Chris,
You forgot to say, "HA HA HA!"
Al
[/quote]

Actually, I meant to add "MUAHAHAHAHAHHA!!"
Message: Posted by: Robert Fitch (Dec 17, 2006 06:30PM)
For Al Angello...anyone really! You have a great sense of humor and irony.

As Jonathon mentioned, there are films of the HO in action, e.g., some old films of Jack Miller with balls, silks, egg bag, ropes exist...I think through Jack McIlhany. They look pretty darn good...
Our F/K Holdout has 7 DVDs on the various attachments, tricks, etc., but they are only sold with the unit. If you've watched any Criss Angel specials, he uses ours on the vanishing ring to ice cube in the glass....4 coins instantly across...and the passe passe routine on the bar with some spilled coffee milk. Also perhaps, some of me on the Coinvention DVDs. So, enjoy your research...and Happy New Year.

Cheers,
Bob Fitch
"Making Magicians Magical"
Message: Posted by: Review King (Feb 25, 2008 11:21PM)
[quote]
On 2005-11-08 13:09, Bob Kohler wrote:
It's interesting to check in occasionally to see what's happening at the old Café. Some interesting observations. Here are a couple of thoughts we had while attempting to figure out the best way to share our holdout solutions with the magic community.

First, my main initial motivation was to make sure that the magic world was aware of Bob Fitch. He blew me away with his use of the holdout in the early '80's. Behind the scenes Bob worked with and was a major influence to a lot of working pros including but not limited to David Copperfield, Jeff McBride and many more.

But the community at large was unaware of Bob's talents. After a multitude of major Broadway shows and over 250 nationally televised commercials I can tell you that Bob has an eye for performance that sets him apart from the rest. His observations are priceless. To get him to critique your act would be one of the smartest things you could possibly do.

When we were attempting to release our work on the holdout we had many challenges. How to make it.
How to release it without seriously compromising the secrets etc.

It's been available now for a little over two years. As far as we're concerned the release has been successful. Many thought the license would kill the project. Many thought it was too expensive.

Those who have the system know how complex the project is. It's extremely diffcult to manufacture with literally hundreds of steps. Creating 7 DVD's of training took a ton of time and effort.

I judge our success by customer satisfaction. 100% of the users were blown away by the final product.
Out of all of the units we've shipped only two have changed hands. The circumstances that forced the tranfers were both due to financial hardship/health issues.

Our system is essentially a tool set. How magicians choose to use it and how well each performer handles it is completely out of our hands. I can tell you this. Holdout work give magicians a tool that creates miracles. The Mishell book is title "Holdout Miracles."

I've fooled countless well informed magicians with the holdout during my career. Laymen don't stand a chance. I'll share a story about my first day at the Magic Castle to make the point. I had lunch with the Professor. After lunch he asked me to do a trick for him. I was wearing the system so I did two tricks for him. Vernon ran around (he was in his early '90's at the time and yes, he was running} and he comes back with Albert Goshman and about 20 other guys. So I do a couple more, nobody has a clue what I'm using to fool them.

I'd been using the holdout at trade shows to perform Goshman's classic Salt Shaker routine. I had it down pat. So I ask him if I can do it for him (yes, I'm an idiot) he says OK and we all go down to the close up gallery. We find a couple of laymen for me to do it for and I do the show.

The effect looks much the same as Albert's but the choreography plus using the holdout for [b]complete[/b] coin vanishes for each phase has them all stunned. I'm watching their eyes. I know they're fooled. Vernon and everybody rave about the show. Then Vernon looks at Goshman and asks him "what do you think about the kid?" Goshman answers "He's got a ****ty classic palm." (This is a direct quote, don't edit it out!!!) Everybody laughs...the truth is I never classic palmed a coin the during the entire routine!

That night I went to one of Albert's last performances at the Castle before he passed away. After they introduced him he spotted me in the crowd. He did one of the greatest close up shows I've ever seen.
After the show he told me "kid, you can really do the moves but you can't entertain like me!" It was one of the best days of my life.

Having the holdout as a "secret" weapon is most important. These days if Mr. Fitch or me show up wearing any clothes at all, everybody thinks if we fool them we used a holdout. Maybe...

We also get a lot of guys who try to sneak around to find a bad angle. Hey, whatever turns you on.

The main reason I decided not to put a ton of little holdout video demo clips up on the internet is there's just know way you're going to get the feeling that good holdout magic can give you. You'll know in advance of the method and you'll watch it a million times until you think you've figured it out.

Holdout work opens unlimited horizons. On the training DVD's we are teaching the use of the tool. We perform many examples but there's so much more we just didn't have the time to get into.

Another question that seems to pop up is comparisons between the holdouts currently on the market.
To me there's just no comparison. I have all of them, I've used all of them. None of the holdouts out there really are professional in my opinion. They all suffer ione fatal flaw or another.

I constantly have been getting letters about when the next batch will be ready. I should have them back in stock in December. Another question is how much longer will we be making the system. The answer is I really don't know. Our system uses a lot of very expensive, high impact plastics which are an oil based product. The cost are going up, way up. Thomas Wayne is the only craftsman who can make it. His main business is not making magic. If he decides it's too much work for the price that could be the straw that breaks the camels back. My best guess is we'll makes systems only every few years after this batch.
We want to make other attachments we've had on the books for years. This way we'll have the time.

I do have one personal opinion I'd like to share. I really wish everybody on all of the magic forums would change and use their real name. When you read a post from Paul Chosse, Paul Green, Dan Watkins, Bill Palmer and many others you know who they are because they stand behind what they post by using [b]their name[/b].

Personally I just don't read, correspond or answer posts by people with names like "Sleight King" or "Gluestick." If he or she really were a sleight king wouldn't we either know about them or they would want us to know who they are. I feel that using a fake name is like wearing a mask. I guess this is OK if you're really Zorro, going to a Halloween party or are robbing a convenience store...just my two cents. Change your log in to your real name! If all of us that use are real name just plain stop answering any post by those afraid to use their real name, the Café and the Genii Forums would be much more useful to all of us.
[/quote]

Bob's post was from a couple of years back, but I think it warants a bump. I loved the Vernon story. I hope one day Bob writes a book about his adventures in magic. He has some amazing stories that I know many folks would love to hear.
Message: Posted by: Gamblingman007 (Jun 19, 2020 10:06AM)
I’m looking for a Fitch and Koler Holdout. Please contact me if you know of anyone who’s selling one. Thank you.

Gamblingman007
Message: Posted by: Greg Arce (Jun 19, 2020 02:48PM)
Boy, it's almost going on 2 decades ago when I was allowed to see a demonstration of this holdout. We were at a Vegas convention and some of us got lucky enough to have a private demo in one of the hotel rooms. I just remember feeling like I was seeing real magic performed right in front of me.

Some of the things I remember: a cut and restore rope where he just really cut a rope in half the tossed the pieces at me. It seemed like the rope restored in mid-air. I saw coins appear and vanish with no sound. I remember having the type of ball you would use in a cups & balls routine thrust into my face and suddenly vanishing.

It was truly magical stuff. And when they explained all the other stuff it could do I was floored. He showed us what you got and it really looked like you were getting a James Bond secret device kit.

Anyway, those are my memories of seeing it in action.

Greg