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Topic: Rashomon principle
Message: Posted by: Yaniv Deautsch (Aug 7, 2002 08:36PM)
Can anybody recommend current literature or routines that deals with the Rashomon principle?

Yaniv Deautsch
Message: Posted by: McCritical (Aug 8, 2002 07:57PM)
Yaniv

There's an illusion where 3 spectators look at the same card, and when asked to reveal the card they saw, the spectators all name different cards. When the magician shows the card to the audience, it's the Joker.

I can't recall the name of the effect though---maybe someone out there knows the name of the trick.

Is this along the lines of what you're looking for?
Message: Posted by: Andy Leviss (Aug 8, 2002 10:54PM)
I think Yaniv is referring to what's also known as double talk, often used in effects involving pre-show work, where the audience-at-large has a different perception of what's going on than the participant who's directly involved. Or am I completely mistaken?
Message: Posted by: Yaniv Deautsch (Aug 9, 2002 06:17AM)
You could put this in many ways Andy.
more specifically it refers to a situation where spectator assuming that because one item of a group is his the others must belong to other spectators talking part.
{quote from Mind Myth and Magick}.

Yaniv Deautsch
Message: Posted by: Seance (Aug 9, 2002 11:16AM)
I think Eugene Burger's effect 'Ob-ser-vo' deals with this. I believe it's where the mage shows two groups of people the same cards, but the two groups can't agree on the makeup of the cards.
Kind of a neat effect.
Message: Posted by: sweetcarl (Aug 9, 2002 11:47AM)
[quote]
On 2002-08-07 21:36, Yaniv Deautsch wrote:
Can anybody recommend current literature or routines that deals with the Rashomon principle?
[/quote]

The 'Rashomon effect' is, I believe, mentioned in 'Theater of the Mind' by Barrie Richardson. I don't have the book in front of me, but I think I can give an example (my own, not his) of how he used the term:

Grab a one-way forcing deck (say Queen of Spades). Tell spec 1 to cut the deck anywhere and to look at and remember the card he cut to. Repeat with spec 2 and spec 3.
Magician then says: "I am going to name the 3 cards you thought of. Please sit down when you hear your card name."
Magician then says: "Ace of Diamonds, Queen of Spades, Seven of Clubs".
Naturally, all three 3 specs sit down because they heard their card named, but what they don't know is that they all saw the same card to start with.

I believe that Barrie Richardson used the term when describing a similar effect based on Scrabble tiles.

However, just to be on the safe side, I'll look in my copy of the book when I get home from work and let you know.

By the way, someone please let me know if this kind of description is not appropriate for the board. As a relative newcomer, I'm still trying to make sure I don't make any commit any flameable offenses.... :0
Message: Posted by: jerdunn (Aug 20, 2002 08:40PM)
Sweet Carl seems to be confusing the requested effect with the Tossed Out Deck by David Hoy.

The effect described by McCritical ("There's an illusion where 3 spectators look at the same card, and when asked to reveal the card they saw, the spectators all name different cards. When the magician shows the card to the audience, it's the Joker") is part of Harry Anderson's Shadow Card routine and is virtually self-working (if you buy the trick).

Jerry
Message: Posted by: McCritical (Aug 21, 2002 09:50AM)
[quote]
On 2002-08-20 21:40, jerdunn wrote:
Sweet Carl seems to be confusing the requested effect with the Tossed Out Deck by David Hoy.
Jerry
[/quote]

Sweet Carl's reference to the "Tossed Out Deck" appears to be the sort of trick Yaniv was interested in.

Yaniv was interested in the Rashomon principle as a method, rather than an effect.

P.S. There's a commercial trick on the market that uses the Rashomon principle in a way that has stumped quite a few magicians...it's a fooler.

EFFECT: a writing utensil and set of instructions are marketed as a gimmick-free effect (The writing utensil can actually be given away to the spectator without swapping it for an identical looking item). A number of people buy the trick. Some magicians discover they cannot perform the trick, while others claim that it only took a few hours to master and it works perfectly if "they follow the instructions".

METHOD: Each of the magicians believe that they are following the SAME set of instruction, resulting in a lot of frustrating and confusing dialog. Actually, the instructions change with each batch of the product that goes to market.

This is basically a "real-life" illustration of what Yaniv is suggesting (at least in how I presented it here)
Message: Posted by: Agathon (Aug 21, 2002 10:44AM)
Rashomon became a westernized term from the movie by the same name directed by Akira Kurosawa back in the early 50's. The movie is about a rape that takes place, but we the viewer, witness it through the eyes of the participants. Thus, I would think the actual meaning would be different spectators see and hear the same thing but interpret it differently. Great movie by the way, as most of Kurosawa's movies are.

Charles Spector :stout:
Message: Posted by: mysterium (Aug 21, 2002 03:39PM)
[quote]
METHOD: Each of the magicians believe that they are following the SAME set of instruction, resulting in a lot of frustrating and confusing dialog. Actually, the instructions change with each batch of the product that goes to market.
[/quote]

So that's what happened!
Message: Posted by: xersekis (Aug 21, 2002 05:59PM)
I believe Bob Cassidy references and makes use of the Roshomon principle in some of the effects in his latest releases.
You may wish to check with Bob about this.

Enjoy!
Rex
Message: Posted by: Andy Leviss (Aug 21, 2002 11:40PM)
Am I the only one seeing a bit of irony in the fact that we're having a discrepancy in what is actually being referred to when one uses the terms "Rashomon Principle"? :o)
Message: Posted by: Curtis Kam (Aug 22, 2002 06:59PM)
From the perspective of a general-purpose magician who only dabbles in mentalism, let me add that the first mention I have ever seen of the "Rashomon Principle" was the very specific and detailed analysis that Richard Kaufman used to describe that certain feature of much of Brother John Hamman's card magic. It's probably in "The Secrets of Bro. John" but it might be in that elegant little set of lecture notes that were sold separately.

That being the case, I would suggest the best source for tricks using the principle would be the Brother John Book. The best example would be "the Pinochle Trick" in which the maximum amount of changes are wrought from four ordinary cards. In it, you remove four cards from a normal deck. You then show the cards one at a time, and the audience sees two pairs of cards. The "Rashamon" part is that some people (assuming the cards just came from the deck and therefore cannot be duplicates)will see, say, the 6C, 7S, 6S, 7C. Others in the audience, being of a more critical bent, see two sets of exact dupicates: 6C, 7S, 6C, 7S. Others see other things.

Now, this happens all the time. Bro. John's gift was the ability to manipulate and exploit it. His patter is especially well designed to be definite, yet vague, allowing enough room for each spectator to see what he expects to see.

I know for a fact that once, when I performed "Pinochle Cards" the spectator swore he saw three different 7's. I had shown him the same 7S each time, but what he actually SAW was his business, and that's the insight Bro. John was trying to bring to all of us.

So it is characteristic of the "Rashamon" principle that each spectator will experience the same situation uniquely. In that respect it is different from the examples given earlier, i.e. the tossed out deck and variations, in which the situation is misinterpreted by the audience, but the entire audience gets the same (albeit mistaken) impression.

I believe the common name for the "tossed out deck" misscall is the "Smyth myth" ploy. Or maybe some of our more theoretical bretheren have found a common name for both?
Message: Posted by: sweetcarl (Aug 24, 2002 05:50PM)
I have just returned from a 2-week holiday and will now check Theater of the Mind to see if I can find the reference to the Rashomon principle. I may of course be mistaken about seeing it there, but I definitely saw it mentioned very recently so I will do my best to find the reference.
Message: Posted by: sweetcarl (Aug 28, 2002 04:35PM)
Well, I have so far been unable to find the alleged reference to the Rashomon principle in Theater of the Mind. It seems that -- quite ironically, as Andy pointed out earlier -- my perception of what I have read is at odds with reality.
Perhaps I saw it mentioned in Mind, Myth & Magick...?
Message: Posted by: liormanor (Aug 29, 2002 06:52AM)
Hi sweetcarl
This is exactly what happenes to you...
You are going through the Rashomon effect...
Lior
Message: Posted by: sweetcarl (Aug 29, 2002 11:09AM)
[quote]
On 2002-08-29 07:52, liormanor wrote:
Hi sweetcarl
This is exactly what happenes to you...
You are going through the Rashomon effect...
Lior
[/quote]

Tell me about it! Despite all this talk of the Rashomon principle, I have never actually seen the movie. Maybe I'll run down to my local video shop here and see if I can find it.
Message: Posted by: Vision (Aug 29, 2002 12:40PM)
I got home like five minutes ago from a friend, he owns all the Kurosawa movies, so I borrowed Rashomon ;)

I just have to ask, what's the principle called when e.g. three spectators believe they all selected different cards and the mentalist tells them to sit down if they hear their card being mentioned. The mentalist names three different cards and the spectators sit down.

What's that called?
Message: Posted by: liormanor (Aug 29, 2002 01:04PM)
Tossed deck
by Hoy
Message: Posted by: Vision (Aug 29, 2002 03:25PM)
Tossed deck is the effect, but the principle? I've heard it referred to as the "hoyploy", don't know if that's right though.
Message: Posted by: jerdunn (Aug 29, 2002 10:29PM)
The effect is actually called The Tossed-Out Deck, and it was published in The Bold and Subtle Miracles of Dr. Faust, by David Hoy.

This amazing little book also includes the Hoy book test and Hurling the Headlines. The underlining premise of all the effects is bluffing in various clever permutations.

Jerry
Message: Posted by: Vision (Aug 30, 2002 05:11AM)
Yes yes yes, I know that already. I just wonder if the principle in itself have a name. Anyone know anything about that?
Message: Posted by: Yaniv Deautsch (Aug 30, 2002 12:50PM)
There is indeed a little information on the Rashomon principle in Theater of the Mind page 129.

Yaniv Deautsch
Message: Posted by: sweetcarl (Aug 31, 2002 04:08PM)
[quote]
On 2002-08-30 13:50, Yaniv Deautsch wrote:
There is indeed a little information on the Rashomon principle in Theater of the Mind page 129.
[/quote]

Yaniv, I don't see the Rashomon principle mentioned on page 129 of Theater of the Mind. Are you sure it isn't on another page?
Or am I just totally blind?
:eek:
Message: Posted by: Yaniv Deautsch (Sep 1, 2002 10:31AM)
He dosen't mention it by that name.

Yaniv Deautsch
Message: Posted by: Sniper (Sep 1, 2002 11:27AM)
Al Mann has written about this. He does not call it Rashomon though.
He calls it the Tesseract and traces its first recorded demonstration to Hofzinser in 1853 - using the "One card as Three" handling.

Mann describes several extremely clever presentations (only one with cards) in his very cool book, The Tesseract.

Sn!per
Message: Posted by: Xiqual (Sep 1, 2002 05:14PM)
I first heard of the Rashomon principle in
T.A. Water's Mind,Myth and Magic.
I can't remember what page though, sorry.
I always wondered [until someone posted the movie title] why he didn't just say "duel
reality"
Cheers,
James