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Topic: Card Manipulation
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Aug 13, 2002 09:07AM)
I got Jeff Mcbrides The Art of card manipulation series 3 days ago and I love them. The only problem I have is with the back palm productions and the tricks that need big hands. I was wondering will my hands grow if I build the muscle in them?

Wikiro :dance:
Message: Posted by: Harry Murphy (Aug 13, 2002 10:10AM)
You hands will have to be very small indeed to be smaller than Jeff’s! His hands small!

By constant practice you will strengthen the muscles used for the manipulations. It will not be comfortable (and may even hurt) as you begin to practice the moves and strengthen the muscles. Most manipulations use muscles in a way they are not normally used. Thus the awkward feeling when you first start to practice.
Message: Posted by: Geoff Weber (Aug 13, 2002 11:17AM)
the cards bend to fit your hand. The other option is get bridge size.
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Aug 13, 2002 12:31PM)
When I do the snap production the cards shows from my pinky.

I got small hands

Wikiro :dance:
Message: Posted by: Harry Murphy (Aug 13, 2002 01:03PM)
OK, Wikiro let’s try a little test. OK? Do you have a poker size playing card handy? You do! Great!

Here’s the test. Hold your left hand. Parallel to the floor, palm down (back up), and fingers out stretched and held together. Now lay the playing card on the back of that hand, with its top short edge running across the second knuckle of your index finger (that’s the long one you’re looking at).

With the card centered on the back of your hand and starting at that second knuckle does either side stick over your hand/fingers? That is, if some one were looking up from the floor, would they see the card?

If the answer is NO, i.e., No part of the card sticks over the edges of your hand, then your hand is large enough.

If the answer is YES, and less than eighth or so of an inch sticks out on either side, then your hand IS LARGE ENOUGH!

If the answer is YES and more than a quarter of an inch sticks out on either side of your hand then you need to use a Bridge size card!

If you try this test using a bridge size card and more than a quarter of an inch of the card sticks out on either side of your hand AND you are fully-grown, then think about learning to manipulate something else. OR start right now to work with two cards to build the muscles needed to control the cards.

As an additional note, cards used in manipulation are “soft”. That is, they are regular cards that have been broken-in such that they bend exceptionally easily or they are specially made manipulation cards that are exceptionally flexible and easy to manipulate.

I repeat, Jeff McBride has very small hands and he started to learn when he was a pre-teen and had even smaller hands.
Message: Posted by: wikiro (Aug 14, 2002 12:16PM)
I guess my hands are not that small but still the snap production shows for some reason. Can I get tips?

No now I found the problem. My uncle said I had small hands and I miss took what he meant. He ment that they were not fat enough. Will the mucsles in my hand grow to get my hands more...well...fat? If I build the muscles in them?

Wikiro :dance:
Message: Posted by: Dan Farmer (Aug 15, 2002 03:52PM)
Wikiro, if you look under "It's not magic but..." you'll see a thread I did called hand sizes. It has the size of my hands and a few other peoples here but what may interest you is that Jeff McBride and I have the same dimensions of our hands. So if you really wanted to see you can check empirically there. All of this stuff is simple practice though.

As long as you don't have translucent skin it is just a matter of adapting things to make them work for you, of course doing it exactly the way Jeff shows on the videos won't work for you, you need to adapt it. My pivot and Jeff's pivot (despite having the same hand sizes) are way different. I can't do it his way -shrug- I accomplish the same motion with different means.

-Dan
Message: Posted by: TheMagician (Aug 16, 2002 12:09AM)
Maybe card manip isn't your thing. Which is fine... tHere's a whole lot of magic out there.
But... for some encouragment I must say that Mahka Tendo has pretty small hands and he produces JUMBO CARDS!!! :bikes:
Message: Posted by: iwillfoolu (Nov 8, 2002 10:52PM)
As for the perfect production I try to keep
the card only slightly bent and tilt my hand just a little back, away from the audience. This keeps angles to a minimum and allows me to open my fingers. Also I have been working on the thumbless version McBride shows one of his tapes. This can also be used as a flying card production if you work at it. Although I don't use it in my routine. :goof:
Joe
Message: Posted by: RandyStewart (Nov 8, 2002 11:25PM)
Wikiro,

Stop taking advice from those who don't share your dream.
Nuff said.
Get to practicing and as the years pass....the only advice you'll hear is positive.
:giggles:

Randy
Message: Posted by: Jeb Sherrill (Nov 9, 2002 06:46AM)
Wikiro,
Don't take this the wrong way, but just don't worry so much about the cards showing. Remember that "you" know where to look for the corners, you're looking down at your hands (at close range) or in a mirror (still close, usually with bright lighting).

Guys like Jeff are fortunate that they have thicker fingers (something I think is far more useful than big hands or long fingers), but my hands are very thin and I have windows everywhere that will NEVER go away. Don't worry about it. Yes, hide the cards as well as you can, but also notice that the cards show in Jeff's hands too. It's why we wave our hands, cover the corners with the produced card, and not to mention, why we're on stage and not performing card productions close-up. You'll find that when you're doing split fans, and turnovers, other moves where a pack of cards are moving, they won't line up perfectly. You'll find yourself squaring them constantly while practicing, but in the real world performance, they'll be all over the place. You'll learn to deal with it though, and you'll find that from stage, many things that seemed impossible close-up, aren't really that bad. Keep working on tucking them in right and keeping them hidden, but don't go too nuts when they still show a little. You'll learn to work around it.

Sable
:dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:
Message: Posted by: Masilon (Nov 9, 2002 11:48AM)
I've just received the art of card manipulation #1. It's wonderful but I think the snap production is not very convincing. I think the perfect production and the back palm production are much better. Just my opinion.
Message: Posted by: Dynamike (Nov 12, 2011 10:01PM)
Try Manipulation Without Tears by Jeff McBride.
Message: Posted by: mtpascoe (Nov 13, 2011 12:08AM)
Remember to use the red back cards like Jeff suggests. It matches better with the skin. Also, like Jeb was saying about waving the hand. Keep them moving... not fast, just up and down motion. In the real world, it is just impossible to be perfect with any kind of sleight of hand. Like in Jurassic Park, there is the chaos theory. Nothing ever happens the same way every time.

You can do card manipulations. Practice, practice, and practice. Then put it away, do something else, and when you come back... bam! It somehow works. That happened to me with the Perfect Production and a second deal.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Nov 14, 2011 05:30PM)
[quote]
On 2002-11-09 12:48, Masilon wrote:
I've just received the art of card manipulation #1. It's wonderful but I think the snap production is not very convincing. I think the perfect production and the back palm production are much better. Just my opinion.
[/quote]

That is why there is so many productions explained, if you don't like a certain, try another. There is no way, all these moves should be done in one routine. Only pick what you like and go from there.

Just for your information, what Jeff reverse to as the snap production is actually called the Pivot Production in the Chavez Course.
Message: Posted by: Suren (Nov 18, 2011 09:30AM)
I have a question. When you watch great manipulators like Jeff McBride you will see that their fans look very big then normal one handed fans. I think that the grip of pinkie makes sense as well as the contact point of thumb. But I cant make them as good as they do. I was practicing split fans for more hen 2 years now but still cant get that result. Any thoughts?
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Nov 18, 2011 02:56PM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-18 10:30, Suren wrote:
I have a question. When you watch great manipulators like Jeff McBride you will see that their fans look very big then normal one handed fans. I think that the grip of pinkie makes sense as well as the contact point of thumb. But I cant make them as good as they do. I was practicing split fans for more hen 2 years now but still cant get that result. Any thoughts?
[/quote]

I know exactly what you are speaking of. It is your finger placement and movement of your fingers that get in the way. Just review your material and keep practicing. Try to move your fingers closer to the ends of the cards and the corner. Also the making of a good powder fan is the speed or snap of the fingers when making them. Analyze your fingers and where the cards hit, and make adjustments.
Message: Posted by: Suren (Nov 19, 2011 04:00AM)
Trust me I changed thousands of things, exoerimented in any way that my brain could think. I don't think I cant do it because its a lack of practice because I am doin those fans for more then years and when Im doing one handed fan in a "traditional" way, where the cards are not coming from backpalm I get a fan of almost 180. I know Im doing something wrong. I had filmed my split fans while I was practicing, while ago. Maybe I can post it and you can tell me whats wrong.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Nov 19, 2011 04:13AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-19 05:00, Suren wrote:
Trust me I changed thousands of things, experimented in any way that my brain could think. I don't think I cant do it because its a lack of practice because I am doing those fans for more then years and when Im doing one handed fan in a "traditional" way, where the cards are not coming from back-palm I get a fan of almost 180. I know I'm doing something wrong. I had filmed my split fans while I was practicing, while ago. Maybe I can post it and you can tell me whats wrong.
[/quote]

Wait a minute, are you talking about fans from the back-palm, as in catching cards, or just fanning a complete deck of cards as in card fanning displays?
Message: Posted by: Suren (Nov 19, 2011 04:34AM)
No no, Im talking about split fans, so the fans from bacpalm in other words fans of "catching the cards"
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Nov 19, 2011 04:47AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-19 05:34, Suren wrote:
No no, I'm talking about split fans, so the fans from back-palm in other words fans of "catching the cards"
[/quote]

Well that depends on the way you chose to produce the cards. Some performers believe it is best to produce a full deck fan on the catch, that is the way Neil Foster did his card productions.

Others elect to split the cards and only fan the cards being discarded. We are getting into personal choice of the performer now. Both are correct, but one will produce a smaller fan and one will produce a larger fan of cards.

It is said that a good large fan is made up from 8 playing cards.
Message: Posted by: Suren (Nov 19, 2011 04:56AM)
So as less cards are used larger the fan will be? I prefer to make fans large but cant do it.
Message: Posted by: Bill Hegbli (Nov 19, 2011 05:09AM)
[quote]
On 2011-11-19 05:56, Suren wrote:
So as less cards are used larger the fan will be? I prefer to make fans large but cant do it.
[/quote]

No, I think you miss understood my comments. There are 2 methods for card productions. One the whole deck is fanned and one only a few cards. The whole deck makes a large fan. The fewer cards make a smaller fan.
Message: Posted by: Suren (Nov 19, 2011 05:16AM)
I think I must post that clip though to get advices.

Posted: Nov 19, 2011 6:55am
The video is in this thread.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=441914&forum=10&0
Message: Posted by: elliottmagic (Nov 28, 2011 01:58AM)
I am 13, I started manipulation when I was 11, now I can do split fans with almost any deck. I have the art of card manip too, and jeff says to use poker cards. I started with a sect of Norm Nielson bridge manipulation cards and worked up to the poker cards from there.
Good luck
Message: Posted by: amart (Nov 28, 2011 09:23PM)
It is good that you start to practice manipulation at young age. What would you be like after 10 years? You can be the next McBride!