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Topic: Big finish
Message: Posted by: Pokie-Poke (Sep 12, 2002 02:23PM)
Ok. This has been up here before, but I would like any comments or help.
For next year's shows I would like to finish with bill in lemon-cups n balls (lemon as a final load, juggle the lemon, a torch, and a machete, then finally, finish is cutting the lemon open (more like hacking it open on a log) to find the bill. :eek:
I already do cups and balls, and the juggling is no prob. but I don't do the bill in lemon, I am giving myself till Jan. to see if it is feasable and then till spring to finish it.
I guess question one:
Are there any snags in stringing these tricks together?
And two:
do you think it is worth it?

I was going to put this in the back-room but as the idea came from this table, I bring it up here. If it gets to into the workings of the trick then pm me.
Also if there are any good sources for in the lemon tricks, I have it in a book here somewhere, but I don't know where.
Message: Posted by: Dr. Jakks (Sep 12, 2002 03:21PM)
It is quite possible and I believe Carl Cloutier has a similar routine. I am not sure where you could find a nice bill in lemon....probably from Carl, but I THINK Michal Ammar once did a signed bill in lemon.

Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Sep 13, 2002 07:24AM)
On 2002-09-12 15:23, Pokie-Poke wrote:
I guess question one:
are there any snags in stringing these tricks together?
and two:
do you think it is worth it?


The cups and balls is probably the single greatest magic trick of all time. It closes more street shows than any other trick (Including my own show).

For years, great debate has been given to just this question.

The two guys who I consider the greatest experts in the world on the cups and balls are Gazzo and Dai Vernon.

Both say ANYTHING you do after the revelation of the fruit will only detract from the impact of this trick. Going any further will only make the worlds greatest trick anti-climactic.

After test driving this theory (because I didn't believe it either) I found that both of these guys were spot on and you can not do any better than the revelation of the fruit.

I recently was given a pouch by Gazzo and have started ending my show with the melon climax and I can tell you, I have never had a stronger reaction from any other effect I've ever done.

When that fruit comes out people gasp, swear, and scream. That is where you want to end. You have just floored them, now is the time to GTFM.

John Carney has a wonderful routine that is a one cup routine that ends with a bill to lemon. It is very good but it is a smaller playing routine than a full cups and balls routine, that is why the combination works.

The bill and lemon alone is also a great closer but to me the POWER of any good bill and lemon routine is in the fact that the audience member is holding the lemon BEFORE the bill vanishes. Any routine where the lemon is produced AFTER the bill has vanished is in my opinion weakened consideribly. Even if they don't tip to the method, they have a path they can go down.

As you can probably tell, I've spent a lot of time working on just this question.

So for my buck, on the street, I'll close with the cups and balls and pass the hat. or I'll close with the bill and lemon and do the same. Combining the two in my opinion weakens both tricks.

The most difficult part of either trick is writing a good script. I think I mentioned I do Gazzo's routine move for move from the booklet I purchased, but I do not use any of his lines.

Putting together my script was a bugger because we all know, that's what sells the trick. Same with the bill and lemon. It is a closer, the script has got to be a killer. If we are not selling the effect it will fall flat.

I've seen guys do both tricks on the street and get nothing out of it. They just didn't have the script to sell it.

Sorry to drone on so long but you asked my kind of question :)


Message: Posted by: Pokie-Poke (Sep 13, 2002 03:00PM)
Thank's Dan, I was thinking along those lines also, which is why I asked, I have a script idea all ready, and is why I said I was going to play with the idea.
I also see the problem of producing the lemon after the fact, Hmmm... I'll think on that.

The goal of this idea is to get more magic in my show, I love cups and balls, but had of yet, not found a way to get it into my act without being cliche. After everything else in my show, juggling 3 lemons would be anticlimatic, to say the least.

Maybe if I did the cups and balls first, thereby having the lemon present... Hmm... this changes the plot a bit...

When I get this done I think I'll have someone video tape it, I don't want to trash 2 good tricks, so if it dosen't work I can see why.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Sep 17, 2002 03:22PM)
I like effects that run through the length of the show. You could start by juggling the lemon and other stuff and then ditch the lemon during some super-high toss of something else (for misdirection) and say "Where'd the Lemon Go?"

Later you find the lemon during cups and balls,

later to find the Bill inside the Lemon.

How's that grab you?
Message: Posted by: KingStardog (Sep 17, 2002 04:48PM)
Cups and balls, force one of the lemons, do the wilson envelope thing, juggle the cups,have them open the envelope while you are juggling, and finish with the machete chop.
Message: Posted by: Ron Giesecke (Sep 23, 2002 11:03AM)
Danny Hustle is, as he says about others, spot-on.

I agree with you 100%!

Message: Posted by: MagiBob (Sep 27, 2002 02:02PM)
I just saw (at SEAM) Michael Ammar do his cups-n-balls and then he finishes with the bill in lemon to great effect. He got a standing ovation from a roomful of magicians. It can work well!
Message: Posted by: Shorty (Sep 30, 2002 12:59AM)
I think thats two diffrent things, for Magician, thats great, they love such magic, if they dont now how it works, they love it. But People on the street not the same. There magic have to be short, visuell and as simple as possible. I saw Ammar doing his Bill in Lemon, he close the Lemon and so on!
For me it was a great magic miracle and I had a sleepless night. After a long time trying I dit the same Effekt for my audince, but the reaction was not as great as I believe. So I was a bit disapointed, for me it was great. My false was, I am looking as Magician and not as a Layman! And the point is, dont overload, keep it simple and direct, without any wonderful slights and technic. Thats was Ia m thinking
Have fun
Message: Posted by: Dano (Sep 30, 2002 10:31AM)
Shorty is right on. Magic for magicians and magic for laymen are two different things entirely. Simple is better almost every time! The two of us are coming from two different directions, and the routine MUST be formatted accordingly. :magicrabbit:
Message: Posted by: Pokie-Poke (Oct 2, 2002 12:12AM)
I was looking to have the tricks have some importance to each other as fstarsinic
had mentiond and have the act fit together.

I don't understand why I would set up a show for other magicians, as this is for a street show, yes ther maby a magician in the audance, and thay probably know how to do the cups and balls. If thay like my Show then thay can put in the hat if not they can walk on. If thay want to talk shop AfteR the show, that cool to. but if thay want to talk during the show, (it happens, welcome to the street) that is hecling and is very un becoming.

still thinking on the patter, the idea is that this is to be all the magic in the show,
drop some of the juggling and set in the magic, too many tricks and the show will be too long for the street, not enough and it looks like the only trick I know and it was just shoved in to the show.
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Oct 2, 2002 09:02AM)
Hey Pokie,

You know, now that you mention it, just because the cups and balls CAN be the big closer, doesn't mean it has to be.

If you are doing it as an opener, as long as it is magical, there is no rule that says it must be earth shattering.

Doesn't Johnny Fox open with the cups and balls almost as a throw away? It is good from what I hear so don't get me wrong, but he down plays it if my information is correct.


From a financial aspect, I think you are on the right track combining the two skills (Juggling and Magic). It is a nice mix, playes for bigger crouds, and will pull you some nice hats.

It really is an interesting topic.


Message: Posted by: Dennis Loomis (Oct 28, 2002 09:47AM)
Tommy Wonder does one stage routine where he opens with the cups and balls. The lemon produced ultimately fits into another trick... the Canary, Orange, and Lemon effect. The act is beautifully routined and he manages to follow the cups and balls quite successfully.
I think the idea is quite simple: you want to close with your strongest effect. For Dai Vernon, that probably was the strongest effect in his close up repertoire. And while it is GREAT, it's not necessarilly the strongest magic routine in every performer's hands. Ammar and Wonder have "toppers" and use them effectively.
Dennis Loomis