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Topic: Troy Hooser's 3 Fly
Message: Posted by: GeorgeSantos (Jan 11, 2005 03:20AM)
I'm a newbie in coin magic and now classic effect I'd like to learn is 3Fly/VCA. I purchased a coin sh**L because I heard it would be a standard tool in some 3 Fly effects. I heard of Troy Hooser 3 Fly variations that he uses F*i**er Coins.
Does Troy Hooser teach 3 Fly with Coin Sh**Ls? If he does, what volume in his Total Destruction dvds does he teaches 3 Fly with the use of a coin sh*ll only.
And also, what volume of Total Destruction dvd set uses the coin sh*ll the most?
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 11, 2005 03:42AM)
Troy Hooser doesn't use a ] at all in any of his DVDs.
You can't use a ] for 3 fly, there is no fast and natural way (AFAIK) of getting it *off* the coin.
What can be used, is a so called sliding ], but that is an entirely different design.
Use your ] for other coins across versions, coins in a spec hands, and similar, there are lots of good routines out there...
Message: Posted by: Jonathan P. (Jan 11, 2005 03:57AM)
I think Maxime Montier in his "brain damage" video uses a shell for an VCA routine. But it sucks... I don't like the routine at all...
I think you'd better to follow Werner's piece of advice.
Jonathan.
Message: Posted by: steve proescher (Jan 11, 2005 05:28AM)
George: From the table of contents on Troy's dvds:
Vol 1 has 3Fly 1 and 3Fly 2.
Vol 3 has 3Fly Simplified.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 11, 2005 06:24AM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-11 04:42, Werner G. Seitz wrote:
...You can't use a ] for 3 fly, there is no fast and natural way (AFAIK) of getting it *off* the coin....
[/quote]
Please look in Hoffmann's [i]More Magic[/i] for this. What I found there was integral to developing the trick.

From what you find there, it is an obvious step to using $1.35 type coin sets for the trick.

The use of Dusheck's shell for billiards type routines using coins was also explored way back in 77 when his "Slippery Sam" coin set hit the market.
Message: Posted by: el toro (Jan 11, 2005 07:06AM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-11 04:42, Werner G. Seitz wrote:

You can't use a ] for 3 fly, there is no fast and natural way (AFAIK) of getting it *off* the coin.
[/quote]
I disagree. I have a way of getting the coin out of the shell, fast and natural. If you are interested PM me.
Message: Posted by: Almost-A-Magician (Jan 11, 2005 07:16AM)
Correction to Warner Seitz...

Troy Hooser does use a [ for a fantastic routine called ExTroydinary in volume one of his DVD's...it is also covered in his book. It is a succession of productions and vanishes...that IMO is a bit more entertaining than most 3 fly's. Just my opinion.

There used to be a demo video of ExTroydinary being performed by Oz Pearlman on the Penguin Magic site under the Expanded Half [. He's not Troy..but it will give you a basic idea of the routine.

Anyway...it is a GREAT routine with a shell.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 11, 2005 07:53AM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-11 07:24, Jonathan Townsend wrote:

The use of Dusheck's shell for billiards type routines using coins was also explored way back in 77 when his "Slippery Sam" coin set hit the market.
[/quote]
Yes, but I am reasoning -when talking about 3 Fly as a mostly fingertips across, so sliding the ] over a coin is easy, but getting it out therefrom with one hand whilst the coins are hold at the fingertips is not that easy.

However it is possible to drop it to the fingerpalm and produce it therefrom as many of the 3 Fly users do...somehow though I feel getting a ] away from a coin during a smooth 3 Fly routine might be a bit troublesom though not impossible.

I don't think I would go to the trouble of using a ], whilst a flipper or the sliding ] is a good option.

OTOH, seeing ppl like Denis Behr doing a gaffless version I have to say, the deception is as good as when using gaffed versions..

I've though not too many ppl seen doing gaffless 3 Fly's, still hoping your handling Jon, will get *visual* one day..
I've my magnifying glass ready :kermit: - for the quarters :)


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[quote]
On 2005-01-11 08:06, el toro wrote:
I disagree. I have a way of getting the coin out of the shell, fast and natural. If you are interested PM me.
[/quote]
Well, the usual way is to hold the covered coin between thumb and forefinger by the ] and let the coin drop to the fingers/fingerplam..

Another way is to have the covered coin on the palm up fingers and lifting the ] off with the forefinger and thumb, when we are talking about one hand handlings..

Using 2 hands there are more options..

In any case, I pass re using a ] in 3 Fly, though I don't doubt some ppl might fancy to use it and get it working well, so my original judgement re a ] wasn't practical in 3 Fly might very well be entirely wrong..

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On 2005-01-11 06:28, steve proescher wrote:
George: From the table of contents on Troy's dvds:
Vol 1 has 3Fly 1 and 3Fly 2.
Vol 3 has 3Fly Simplified.


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Absolutey correct, but that wasn't the issue of the original question..

The question was if there is shown the use of a shell in Troy Hoosers DVDs during a 3 Fly routine, and there is none used in any of these 3 Fly routines :)

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On 2005-01-11 08:16, Almost-A-Magician wrote:
Correction to Warner Seitz...

Troy Hooser does use a [ for a fantastic routine called ExTroydinary in volume one of his DVD's...it is also covered in his book.


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Yes, you are entirely correct, I recall that routine without rewatching his DVD..
He's using a ] and a flipper to display 3 coins..Great routine, still a ] is not used in any of his 3 Fly routines, but I said he didn't use any ] on his DVDs and that was definitley wrong..thanks for pointing it out. :)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 11, 2005 08:14AM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-11 08:53, Werner G. Seitz wrote:
...Yes, but I am reasoning -when talking about 3 Fly as a mostly fingertips across[/quote]
See pages 162-163 in [i][b]More Magic[/i][/b] by Professor Hoffmann for some historical context.

There are several goodies within ten pages of the fingertips ] move in that book as well, including a coin in bottle, a sound maker and ... well you can find them as you read.

Enjoy.
Message: Posted by: Dan Watkins (Jan 11, 2005 08:17AM)
Actually,

A shell can be used very well for this effect. Look at Gary Kurtz' "Trio" from "Unexplainable Acts" or "Misty Like a Dream" from his video "Creating Magic".

Even though there are one handed methods to un-nest a shell (for an example see Geoff Latta's contribution to the LVMI DVD), I think the shell's best use for this type of a routine is a clean show at the beginning and end of the routine.

As you setup the fan, steal a coin out of the shell. Make the shell the top rearmost coin in the fan. Just use the shell as an "extra coin" to do a four coin version of the routine. At the end, slip the shell back onto the coin to show three coins clean.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 11, 2005 08:17AM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-11 09:14, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
[quote]
... well you can find them as you read.

Enjoy.
[/quote]Thanx :)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 11, 2005 08:41AM)
Some of the newbies may wonder why I cite a book from 1890 on such a "modern" issue. I on the other hand am surprised by how few here express familiarity with the basics to be found in the classic texts of our field. Ordinarily one cites the first known published reference / description of an idea when asked or when the issue arises as to the existence of a technique.

The book was in my high school library, along with [i]Greater Magic[/i] and was instrumental in my developing the trick so many of you wish to explore.

I suspect Geoff Latta and most of the well informed coin men have read this book and many others, and so have a much deeper well of ideas to draw from.

The book is available for download from http://www.Lybrary.com along with several other classic works in the field. Remember, reading is fundamental.
Message: Posted by: Mike Wild (Jan 11, 2005 09:13AM)
Werner, I'm in total agreement with Jon and Dan. I OWN a U3F set, but the coins across routine that typically DO is done with shells (two actually, and two normal halves - this allows me to clearly and slowly show two coins in one hand, one coin in the other, and makes the transposition that much more amazing). The sliding shell method looks very 2-dimensional to me... no depth to the fan of coins. Using shells provides, for me anyway, the desired 3-dimensional / real look that I like. There's actually quite a bit that can be done with shells at the fingertips... I was surprised to find out how much I can get away with, and how open the dirty work is without being noticed. All that's required is a light touch and some well rehearsed timing.

Best,

Mike
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 11, 2005 09:29AM)
@ Mike Wild.
Yes, I just wrote a PM to a friend re 3 Fly and I can post an extraction therefrom re some of my thoughts here:

************************************************
Re 3 Fly, I simply hadn't yet time to even *touch* it at all.
Will take a lot of time to make anything that just barely will live up to my standards.

I aim for a non-gaffed version, though will try out the sliding ] set, as I've gotten it.

Re non-gaffed versions, I solely have seen Denis Behrs as I don't fancy to buy all the DVDs mention out there, from Gregory Wilson and others doing 3 Fly, also I do have his description in Genii.
Troy Hoosers DVDs I have, where he makes fine use of a flipper and even is 2 coins ahead.

Re Denis Behrs version at - at least- on point he does use a kind of Latta's nowhere palm, but I haven't figured out how he gets the coin that fast in place when doing the 3 Fly, but OTOH, I haven't spend any time on it yet to explore
Too much to keep up with.
************************************************
And again, life is too short to do it all, but some stuff is worth to spend time on..
Message: Posted by: Loz (Jan 11, 2005 09:33AM)
I have essentially copied Denis Behr's 3-fly and yes the phase where he gets the coin real fast into that grip is tricky. Took me ages and I'm nearly at his speed. Think 2 steps, first finger palm, then second grip. I recently noticed that David Stone has almost the same handling in the bonus section of vol 2 of his coin magic DVDs.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 11, 2005 09:38AM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-11 10:33, Loz wrote:
... I recently noticed that David Stone has almost the same handling in the bonus section of vol 2 of his coin magic DVDs.
[/quote]Hmm, thanx, I do have David Stones 'tape' Vol 2, have to have a peak.. :)
Message: Posted by: owen.daniel (Jan 11, 2005 09:58AM)
Reed McClintock has a version using a shell in his Coin Ovations DVD (called Scream Fly). I personally think that this routine just looks like coins sliding...thats a personaly opinion though.
Owen
Message: Posted by: phread (Jan 11, 2005 12:12PM)
Hi all... first anything from jonathan townsend should be looked into. but for a newby I would suggest looking into paul wilson's "crowded coins" imo his method of getting the second coin over is the easiest I have seen.
dug
Message: Posted by: kihei kid (Jan 11, 2005 05:31PM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-11 09:41, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Some of the newbies may wonder
[/quote]
Not just the "newbies", me too! As always, thanks for your help JT.
Message: Posted by: GeorgeSantos (Jan 11, 2005 07:40PM)
Thanks for all the info guys. ExTroydinary for sure uses a shelled coin. Now I know Troy doesn't teach 3 Fly with a ] only and 2 coins.

May I know what volume of the Total Destruction 3 dvd set has routines using ] coin ONLY? I would only like to purchase the dvd where a ] ONLY is mostly used in the routines taught since I don't have a FL*&$er coin yet.
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 11, 2005 08:08PM)
We can use [^ or [~ or Swadling Coin to describe that gaff without risk of exposure.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Jan 11, 2005 10:17PM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-11 20:40, GeorgeSantos wrote:
May I know what volume of the Total Destruction 3 dvd set has routines using ] coin ONLY? [/quote] That's in Vol.1
Message: Posted by: John Long (Jan 30, 2005 06:53PM)
Check out Troy's book Destroyers. It has 3/4 of the stuff that's in the 3-DVD set, and is a good bargain(it is however a little tough to translate words, and 2-D pictures into the actual moves for the newbie)

This book has Extroydinary, which uses a [, and 3 ungaffed coins. It is quite impressive. The book also has

"Three Fly Simplify" - no gaffs

"Redirection Coins Across" - seems like a 3Fly, but haven't gone through all of it yet, no gaffs

a number of routines using a dolphin, ahh, I mean Swadling coin.

and much much more, including "Charming Chinese Challenge".
Message: Posted by: Joe Mauro (Jan 30, 2005 06:56PM)
Daryl has a version. It uses soft coins. I've never seen him perform it, but knowing Daryl, it must be a fooler dooler!
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Jan 30, 2005 07:26PM)
If you'd like to consider a ] in the context of coins at the fingertips, have a look in Hoffmann's [i]More Magic[/i] somewhere around page 160 where the multiplying coins is discussed. ;) It was quite a find when I saw the book in our High School library.
Message: Posted by: Hardi (Feb 1, 2005 11:26AM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-11 04:42, Werner G. Seitz wrote:
Troy Hooser doesn't use a ] at all in any of his DVDs.
You can't use a ] for 3 fly, there is no fast and natural way (AFAIK) of getting it *off* the coin.
...
[/quote]

Reed McClintock has some nice versions using a ]. Check out his DVD "Reed McClintock's Coin Ovations - Stand-up Coin Magic", for example.

Hardi
Message: Posted by: Conus (Feb 1, 2005 11:50AM)
Garrett Thomas uses a S**** and FL***** combo for his routines "3 Fly Dream" and "3 gone."
Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Feb 1, 2005 11:57AM)
JT, in all these discussions about 3Fly (VCA, etc.), what are your thoughts about the many variations that have emerged, most probably from your initial ideas about the affect? I mean, I see variations using flippers, shells, even Mickey Silvers version just using a vanish...Did you imagine all of this would come to be from your first thoughts about all this? Oh, and I forgot all the creative ways of doing it ungaffed. :) The methods might be different here and there, but the principle always goes back to from whence it came in general presentation. What a seed you planted JT, what a mighty tree you've grown. ;)
Message: Posted by: Jonathan Townsend (Feb 1, 2005 03:59PM)
I'm pleased that something I found of interest has also proven of interest to so many others in the community. It's a pleasure to see people exploring the possibilities.

Not many people get to nurture a small garden and find it grown into a field of study or a forest.