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Topic: What are your workhorse cups... and why.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jan 19, 2005 03:42AM)
I used to use Cellini Cups until recently.

I've officially switched to the Gary Animal "Babe" cups.
I did this for several reasons, even though I love the look and feel of
the Cellini Cups.

I bought 2 sets of Babes so I now have an extra set just in case.
I like the look of the Babes. They remind me of the Paul Fox cups.
They barely take a baseball. They are handmade and they are not an exact match. Even from cup to cup. But I don't care.
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Jan 19, 2005 04:05AM)
PETE BIRO CUPS are my standard. Just used them this past Sunday on the street. I was walking into Ralphs (supermarket for those outside CA) on Sunday to get my oranges and mellon and took one of Pete's cups to make sure the fruit fit, and I admired the beautiful pantina my cups had mellowed into.

Two hours later, I was lifting those cups one by one to reveal my second set of oranges as the 100 or so punters around me gasped with each reveal. Thanks, Pete!

PS: I also love my Gazzo cups, but I'm saving them as collectors items cause I got a set that Gaz actually used.

Jim
Message: Posted by: swatchel-omi (Jan 19, 2005 06:51AM)
I use Gary Animal /Animal cups for close quarter shows, (like a crowded cocktail party) 3 oranges and a lemon are the finale from a Cellini pouch

I use Gary Animal/Gazzo cups for everything else. The finale being 6 oranges from a Gazzo pouch and a melon or a coconut from the hat. I have 2 sets just in case.


Those are my workhorse cups. For many years my only cups were Magic Inc. / Charlie Miller cups, but now that I've gone to a bigger size I can never go back. Now the Miller cups feel like thimbles, and the small balls seem like peas.

Once in a great while I'll use Harries Bosco Cups for nightclub work.

Joe
Message: Posted by: bigchuck (Jan 19, 2005 10:49AM)
I use the Gary Animal cups because they just fit me right, they have a nice weight & I get some nice sized loads in there.
Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Jan 19, 2005 11:07AM)
JamesinLA... you have good taste :kermit: -- My current favorite cups? Hindu Cups and for single cup work Frank Starsini's leather chop cup - and if I have the space Cocktail Surprise.

I don't have any of my own cups left, discriminating customers have them all (except a few sets of the Johnny Paul Cups).
Message: Posted by: BroDavid (Jan 19, 2005 11:16AM)
I use gazzo cups, and after playing aorund with them for the last six months, any other cup I pick up feels like it is going to fly straight up in the air. I love the heft of them, and the sound they make when I do the cup thru cup move; [b]KATHUNK![/b] and also when I tip them over; [b]THUD![/b]

I even sold all of my other cups. The Gazzos are the only ones I need!

BroDavid
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Jan 19, 2005 12:53PM)
My first "real" cups were the Bertram/Miller cups. I still like them. They have a sort of primitive look that works well into a Ren Faire theme.

I then graduated to some Gazzo "Babe" cups and never looked back. I'm on the waiting list now for a new set of "small top" Animals. These more closely match Gazzo's original design. I don't do the "three balls" thing on the top anyway, and I think the smaller top will help to enhance the look of the load sitting on the cups.

And, the slightly bigger diameter should make it easier to find oranges that fit. (I learned the hard way to take a cup with you to the grocery store. Day of show, quick stop on the way, not a single orange would fit.)
Message: Posted by: cstreet_1986 (Jan 19, 2005 03:11PM)
Frank Starsini's Chop/Dice cup combo is a beautiful cup to use for a one-cup routine

Chris
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Jan 19, 2005 04:20PM)
I am using Gazzo cups for the street and Bertram/miller cups for private gigs. I just sold my Biro Gali-Gali cups on ebay and it just about broke my heart. They went to a good home though, thank God. The Biro cups were by far the best magic investment I have ever made. I used them on the street for almost 4 years earning countless hats and sold them last week for just about what I paid for them. I am sure the guy who bought them will get super service from them as well.
Buying quality tools always pays off in the long run.
Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Lee Darrow (Jan 20, 2005 02:06AM)
Well, I have a set of aluminum Morrisey combo cups that I use a lot. For my chop cup, I have an original Rings 'N' Things cup. One of our compatriots in here, Rik, is sending me his leather, hand-tooled mini-chop cup and I can hardly wait to get my paws on it. I also have a set of three pewter shot glasses with Revolutionary War motifs on them that I sometimes use for themed events - they are not gimmicked.

As to the why - well the Morrisey cups have been with me for about 20 years. They're near indestructible. The original RNT cup should be obvious - it is a superb cup and holds an immense load. The mini-cup/shot glasses are solid pewter, stack pretty well and allow me to use both standard cup moves as well as some of the shell game moves.

I haven't received Rik's chop cup yet. I'll post a review of it when I get it and have a chance to work with it a bit.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
Message: Posted by: Vraagaard (Jan 20, 2005 02:26AM)
Penguin copper cups are mine. They are heavy, big enough to load fruit and very important the balls do not fall down when I put two of them on top of a cup and do the ball penetration move.
Message: Posted by: tboehnlein (Jan 20, 2005 03:20PM)
Phoenix Cups, beat them to death & love them.
Message: Posted by: chrisrkline (Jan 20, 2005 05:34PM)
I long for a set of Gazzo or Animal cups, but right now I am using the Harries Bosco street cups, which are nice and take a decent sized orange. I kind of like them for their traditional styling.
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Jan 20, 2005 06:59PM)
I think Boscos are a great deal for the money.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Jan 20, 2005 07:03PM)
Just want to say that I have a set of Animal cups. At least that's what Gazzo says. Gazzo gave them to Cellini and Cellini gave them to me. Nice cups, big load, and strong. However, I do a chop cup routine on the streets and I think it kills. I'm using a Jim Riser chop cup, the mini Riser and it's really nice.

The release of the ball is so natural. It rocks. I think I might buy another just to have it.

Anyways that's my story.
koz
Message: Posted by: Tom Frank (Jan 21, 2005 08:33PM)
Well, it may be no surprise to you, that the Phoenix Cups are my workhorse cups. Today was a beautiful day here in Seattle. Blue skies, sunny, 60 degrees and the mountains were out. I went to Pike Place Market and banged out some street shows. When I say banged out shows I mean it literally. It was 21 years ago that I studied with Cellini in the French Quarter of New Orleans. He taught me to bang on the cups in my routine to create attention. It is a fact, that a person will cross the street to see what the guy banging on the cups with a crowd around him is doing. Worked then. . . works now.

I grew up on the Charlie Miller cups but I went through at least a set a year. When I had the Phoenix Cups manufactured, I wanted a much stronger cup, I achieved that. I just wish James Riser had his fantastic site up and running then. I could have fixed the design flaws then.

But to be honest, the wobble has never prevented me for entertaining my audiences, or prohibited me from performing any of the many sequences in my routine or making money with them.

I like that term "workhorse cup" that was the goal of the Phoenix Cups.

:cups:
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Jan 22, 2005 01:13AM)
Hi Tom.
I bought a set from you off ebay. I thought they were great.
I could even let the kids play with them without worrying.
Message: Posted by: bropaul (Jan 22, 2005 08:08AM)
Well the Charlie Miller's are my favorite just because I have used them for a bunch of years. A nice weight and doesn't weigh me down. I agree with Tommy, I beat the hell out of those cups. I have an aluminum bar about 18" that I use for a wand so they do get banged up. I can balance the wand on my index finger, in the middle and strike it with a silver dollar. It makes one of those nice ringing sounds. Very cool. Now that the Charlie Miller cups have dried up I have a set of Phoenix cups waiting on the wings.

I liked the price of the Charlie Miller's too. It made them kind of disposable. The way cups are priced today, looks like I'll have to go to a wooden wand.

Also my balls are a little different. I took two pieces of leather the size of silver dollars and sewed them around the edge. Turned them inside out. Filled them with bird seed. Finished off the sewing. It makes them round, but flat. Kind of like little flying saucers. This keeps them from rolling off the table, and when the wind is up they stay put. I can also angle my table top for larger crowds and they don't roll off.

Just thoughts...

Tommy: Thanks for the cups. I got them from Shawn a couple of years ago. They are great! Good presentation.
Message: Posted by: Michael Baker (Jan 22, 2005 10:00AM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-22 09:08, bropaul wrote:

Also my balls are a little different. I took two pieces of leather the size of silver dollars and sewed them around the edge. Turned them inside out. Filled them with bird seed. Finished off the sewing. It makes them round, but flat. Kind of like little flying saucers. This keeps them from rolling off the table, and when the wind is up they stay put. I can also angle my table top for larger crowds and they don't roll off.
[/quote]

This is the kind of lateral thinking that belongs in the genius class. Who said a ball must be round? I salute you, sir!
Message: Posted by: Tilman (Jan 22, 2005 01:52PM)
I have been using copper cups from Willi Seidl, Vienna, for about ten years. These are excellent, comparatively small, but heavy cups. Alexander DeCova recommended them a lot. He also had some custom-made in two somewhat larger sizes and sold them through his own shop (you can see all three sizes on his German video on the cups and balls, and there is also a photo of at least one Seidl cup in Bill Palmer's cups and balls museum).
At the moment, the only source for Seidl cups I know of is Freers Zauberladen Berlin. The cups sold there seem to be a bit larger than the regular sized Seidl cups that were sold ten years ago - I do not know how they compare to the two larger sizes sold by Alexander DeCova.
What all Seidl cups have in common is the fact that they have only one, rather broad, ring around the middle of the cup. The upper half of the cup is quite round, which makes it easy to drag one cup away from a stack of cups while retaining a ball in the cup.
Seidl cups in the regular size also have a rather unique feature: when you remove one cup from a stack of cups not by dragging it off, but by rotating it around a point where its rim hits the shoulder bead of the cup underneath, the opposite side of the rim will just knock a 1+ inch ball off the top of the lower cup and into the angled top cup (hope this makes sense). When you further remove the top cup, you can easily prevent the ball from falling out by curling in your third or fourth finger. In this way, you can slowly and deliberately show the space between two cups empty before going into a Charlie Miller sequence.
Message: Posted by: Tom Frank (Jan 22, 2005 03:13PM)
Yo Yo Brother Paul! Good to hear from you! Glad you like the cups.

Did you and Shawn have a good time recently?

The Charlie Miller (Magic Inc.) Cups were the cup of an era for me too. At $35 bucks a set back in the day they were great. The Ross Bertram Cups were only $75 back then.

Now we have so many high priced options. I wish I had more money; I would own them all!!!!
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Jan 22, 2005 04:21PM)
Well, Tom here gave me a stick a few years ago. Tom, still using it.
koz
Message: Posted by: Tom Frank (Jan 22, 2005 07:11PM)
By the way Frank, thanks for your purchase. I appreciate it and I'm glad you're happy with them.

Yo Ted, how you been?
Message: Posted by: Kozmo (Jan 22, 2005 10:38PM)
Doing well Tom.
koz
Message: Posted by: bropaul (Jan 23, 2005 07:15PM)
Thank you Michael Baker. Been using them for 18 years now. I guess it was about time to tip 'em. Enjoy!
Message: Posted by: Michael Baker (Jan 23, 2005 10:45PM)
Bropaul,

I just recently made some load balls following an idea for making juggling balls, and they are filled with birdseed (tightly packed). I like the way they feel and handle, I'd just never thought of a non-spherical shape for the regular balls.

If you don't mind, what kind of leather did you use? Thickness? Texture? I believe I'll be on this project very soon!

...and thanks for the tip!

~michael
Message: Posted by: drwilson (Jan 24, 2005 09:08AM)
Since I got my copper Gazzo cups, I haven't wanted to use anything else. Sometimes in a practice session I will work with my brass Johnson cups, a set of prototype Animal cups that Gary used on the street, and the Gazzo cups. Once I got used to the size, which took some doing, I fell in love with the weight and balance of these. Being able to produce an orange is wonderful.

After one performance, someone came up to me to talk. He was really baffled by the final loads, because as he explained to me, "You can't palm an orange."

"No," I said. "That's impossible."

That's why we do this!

Yours,

Paul
Message: Posted by: magic guy (Jan 26, 2005 05:21PM)
I use Johnson Products cups for my routine with stainless-steel ball bearings -- thank you Paul Gertner for the inspiration and some of the moves. The best thing about the JP cups for this kind of work is they ring like bells when bottoms-up, meaning the hole side is up, and you tap them with a wand -- a wooden dowel from a coathanger. Also, when I get to the under-the-cup loads, a pair of 2" balls on the sides and a 2.5" ball under the middle cup, they really sound off if you hold the cups just right for the 2" balls. Then I use the audience's visual reaction when a spectator reveals the big 2.5" under-the-cup load as misdirection -- while I put away the three 3/4" balls and steal the 3" ball bearing for the final drop. Absolute control is the key to prevent the small balls from talking, but some of the moves require banging the cups and slamming the balls. You have to be willing to sacrifice those JP cups' beautiful, smooth finishes, but it works for me -- and the balls don't blow away in Wichita's high winds. :)
Message: Posted by: tboehnlein (Jan 27, 2005 03:28PM)
Tom Frank taught me the significance of beating on the cups several years ago at Tower Place along with a wonderful false pass of the ball that I had never seen or read about before. I love that ironwood wand that comes with them things. Tom, sure miss your presence here in Cincy.
Message: Posted by: okito25 (Jan 28, 2005 03:25PM)
So many Cups so little time .... I was using morrisey and pavel cups for years .. a few years ago My lovely Partner She Gifted me with a set of Johnson ( David Williamson)Cups .. very sweet and generous that girl , smaller than Gazzos .. Gary Animals , But beautiful weight and sound ... I also like using the Fab fruit from Michael Ammar loads with out a hitch and looks Great !, after I Tame my habit from collecting coinboxes I will persue More cups ;), I keep the boys in the club Scratching their heads Last years Auction I sold one little chop cup and bought 4 others that were unique and different , I think One set of everything would be a good start ;).. I guessI would have to go alphabetically starting with Biro then Frank .. etc etc he he he
Keet
Message: Posted by: Tom Frank (Jan 28, 2005 04:48PM)
Tom Boehnlein, thanks for the kind words. I miss all of my friends and customers from the Carew Tower Magic Shop days as well. That was one hell of an 8 year run we had there ay? It was just getting good when the riots hit and changed it all for me. Oh well.

Have you checked out my blog to see what going on with me these days?

http://www.ballvase.com/tfrank/weblog/tfblog.htm

It's been a rocky road ever since I left Cincinnati, but I always end up landing on my feet.
Message: Posted by: Tom Wolf (Jan 28, 2005 06:32PM)
Hi Tom,

How nice to read that you are doing so well.

I still have fond memories of the few times that we had together with Larry Pringle.

Take care and please stay in touch.


Tom Wolf aka "Mike"
Message: Posted by: garyanimal (Jan 30, 2005 02:55PM)
I use Gary Animal cups with the small top. Gazzos are too big for me, even if I did design them.
Message: Posted by: Michael Baker (Jan 30, 2005 03:59PM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-30 15:55, garyanimal wrote:
I use Gary Animal cups with the small top. [/quote]

Yeah, me too. I bought them from you... along with an old beat up set of huge copper flower pots. Great cups all, and having a blast with them! Thanks again!

Glad to see you decided to join the fun here, too.

~michael
Message: Posted by: garyanimal (Feb 2, 2005 05:05PM)
I miss the old flower pots. Used that a lot and made a good living with them. Still the house is full of stuff. It's got go---got to get lean
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Feb 2, 2005 05:10PM)
Hey Gary,

Let me know when you are cleaning house. I have a set of the Gazzo's and am in the market for something a bit smaller when I work indoors. Tennis ball size load.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: saturnin (Feb 10, 2005 05:15PM)
Hi everyone,

I received the copper Gazzo street cups a few days ago, and all I can say is WOW!
I had only used Morrissey cups before, and I don't think I will ever be able to go back... I mean when you compare the design, weight, balance, etc... the Gazzo cups are far superior.

Did I say BIGGER too!?! (a morrissey cups fits inside!!!)

I have to admit I was hesitant to spend that amount of money on cups... but I do not regret it at all, in fact I will recommend them from now on!

In fact I will probably order a set of "Babe" cups or "Gary Animal" cups (with the small top).

Cheers!

Ronnie Lemieux
Montreal
Canada
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Feb 10, 2005 06:48PM)
I just got my new Gazzos too! WOW! I ordered the new "Super Animals." They are the size of the big Gazzos but with the small top. Not only does the Morrissey cups fit inside, so does my dog's head! My fist also fits nicely too (in the cup, not the dog) which might be nice when grocery shopping for loads so I don't have to borrow a wheelbarrow to lug the cups with me to the store.
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Feb 10, 2005 08:15PM)
Gazzo cups are the best. Gazzo doesn't make cheap junk. I love my Gazzo cups, there are a lot of good cups out there do not get me wrong, but for a busker who wants to produce oranges the Gazzo cups are the best.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Mario Morris (Feb 10, 2005 09:48PM)
I have just got a set of Gary's golf cups they are so nice, cute is the word.
I have worked the Gazzo cups but I now work Gary Animal Cups in my street show.

I got the golf cups for close up, I have been able to work six golf balls from one coat pocket, nice, again for close up the golf cups are the best.
Mario
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Feb 10, 2005 09:51PM)
AHHH! Mario, that is GREAT! Six golf balls! I'd love to see that. As an off beat you should stick a golf tee as one load, "How the heck did that get in there?" and toss it over your shoulder.

Sounds like a fun routine.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: saturnin (Feb 10, 2005 10:08PM)
Wow, Great Idea Danny!

I like it.

Mario, do the golf balls talk when you load them (since they are pretty hard and the cups are in metal...)????

Please let us know.

Ronnie Lemieux
Montreal
Canada
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Feb 10, 2005 10:25PM)
[quote]
On 2005-01-22 14:52, Tilman wrote:
At the moment, the only source for Seidl cups I know of is Freers Zauberladen Berlin.
[/quote]

Jimmy Bix has them, as well. Now that Frank Freer has passed away, I don't know how long the shop will remain open. I have very fond memories of that shop. In 1990, I made my first trip to Germany. While I was in Berlin, Peter Rückert took me over to the Eastern Zone, which was still somewhat "Eastern," and introduced me to Frank at Freer's Zauberladen. When I walked into the shop, there was a copy of [i]Magische Welt[/i] with my photo on the front cover. It was up on the wall. That made me feel very good.

I didn't know Frank well, but that made a real impression on me. I saw him again at Let's Go Magic, in 1992.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 11, 2005 02:05AM)
He passed away?
When did this happen Bill?
Message: Posted by: bropaul (Feb 11, 2005 09:11AM)
Michael:

The balls I made are made of a medium suede. I put the soft side out for a good grip and they are packed pretty tight with bird seed. They've done me well. Good luck with the project.
Message: Posted by: Michael Baker (Feb 11, 2005 11:44PM)
Thank you for the info Bro. Paul! I WILL make a set of these.
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Feb 12, 2005 01:57PM)
Speaking of cups, I just put my personal set of phoenix cups on the block over on ebay along with some other stuff. My ebay id is jolt62 these are tough cups I will say that about them, and these ones had the case, and the wand, and the balls, and the cert of authenticity, etc..

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Tom Frank (Feb 16, 2005 07:41PM)
Here is a set of work horse cups on ebay, item Number 6512237222
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Feb 16, 2005 08:56PM)
Geez... Frank, a set of cups like that should be in a museum, they are priceless.

1983, Man.

Ronnie Ray Gun was still in office, The Berlin Wall was still up, Sean Penn was Spicoli, the New Kids on The Block were still wearing diapers, and the world was your oyster.

You can see that those cups have played thousands of shows, stood thousands of pitches, and entertained thousands of punters.

I hope somebody buys them for thousands of dollars. They are obviously well loved cups.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Tom Frank (Feb 17, 2005 03:53PM)
Dan, that would be nice if anyone bought them at all.

If those cups could talk, boy. . . the stories they could tell!

After my adventures in Naw'lens, I moved to Boston in 1984. I worked Harvard Square and Faniel Hall with some of the best Buskers of that era. Cyrus, Birdie, Sonny Holiday aka Rocky,Gazzo, Robert Kirk. Those were some CRAZY daze. We all made enough money to get in a lot of trouble.

I lived in Back Bay sharing an apartment with my brother who was attending Berklee College of Music.

What is the scene like these days? Do you get out there much during the season?

Peace, Love, Magic & CUPS & BALLS

:cups:
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Feb 18, 2005 02:41PM)
Hi Tom,

The Scene in Harvard Square is quite dreary compared to how it was when you were out this way. Mostly musicians of varying degrees of talent, a few magicians with table acts, and three or four juggling acts working the big pitch.

The big pitch has changed too. It used to be down in front of the stone bench it has moved up to the open area by the subway entrance. The money just isn't there anymore. the big guys could do a $200 hat two or three times per night now they are lucky to get off one show and make $100.

I work a table act in a doorway and knock out the $10 and $15 shows three or four to the hour. Every now and again I'll pull a $30 or $40 show but most of the time the bodies just are not there like they used to be.

It really isn't a tourist spot anymore. It has turned into a mall just like everything else I guess. The death knell was when they flattened the Tasty back in 98.

Fanny Hall is still the place to go if you want to make the big bucks. But even that has become very mall like and from what I understand the audition process is a lot more difficult than it used to be. I have also been told that the money isn't nearly what it was there either.

Cyrus is still around and still one of the funniest clowns going. I was splitting a pitch with Rocky pretty much every weekend in 2002 then at the end of the season he disappeared and the reports have varied about his whereabouts. Gazzo is out on the left coast at the moment spreading the gospel of the streets to our brother magi. He gave me a call the other night and said he'll be back out this way in a couple of weeks.

There are also a lot of new faces. Some really top flight street acts working Fanny Hall these days. Auditions are coming up in April and I'm hoping I get in. I didn't make it last year. Lack of a sound system just killed me.

The good news is evidently the entire city has been opened up and there should be some great pitches to be had this year all over the city.

So, that's the Boston scene in a nutshell at the moment. :)

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Feb 18, 2005 06:44PM)
What kind of sound system to you need there Danny?
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Feb 18, 2005 07:00PM)
Anything will work there really. I have a Fender AmpCan. It isn't great but it gets the job done. I am trying to scrounge up a wireless mic at the moment as that has always been my bigger problem. Cheap equipment breaks a lot. :)

A lot of the guys use the limo or the crate.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Tom Frank (Feb 18, 2005 09:21PM)
Dan,
Thanks for taking the time to tell me what's up in the Bean Town. It's crazy to me that I make less money on the streets and in the Comedy Clubs these days than I did 20 years ago.

I am very thankful however, to be a street performer at heart. Today in Seattle it was 52 degrees clear and sunny. I went out to Pike Place Market and made about $200 in 2 and a half hours. Rent is coming up and I am nowhere close to what I need. You can be sure I will be out beating the cups if the weather is nice.

Thanks again

Tom
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Feb 19, 2005 03:46AM)
I hear you there Tom. When I got Divorced a couple of years ago I never would have made it without the street to supplement my income. There is no more comforting feeling in the world than to know that when the cupboard is bare, the rent is due, and the bank account is empty, guys like us still have a way to bring home the frogskins.

I got laid off from my day job back in November and "Show Biz" has kept my head above water and food on the table since. When the warm weather hits here I should be doing okay. Now that the initial fear of it is over and I am pretty sure that the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a freight train, I don't think I am ever going to take a "straight" job ever again. It works if you know how to work it. :)

All the best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Tom Frank (Feb 21, 2005 12:23AM)
Dan,
I posted some pics that were shot today on my blog. Thought you and the others might get a kick out of my pitch. I stand on a newspaper box to gather a crowd.

http://www.ballvase.com/tfrank/weblog//tfblog.htm
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Feb 21, 2005 07:22AM)
Tom,

That is a GREAT post!!!!

Two things that you point out that we never really talk about here but they are two of the most important things about getting the money.

1. visibility. The higher you are up in the air the more people can see you. The more people who see you the larger your hat will be. No matter how big your props are if only the first three rows of your circle show can see you only the first three rows are going to tip.

This is why you see so many street acts climbing ladders, standing on poles, hanging from tripods, or standing on newspaper boxes. You are the first magician I have ever seen who has a table act stand on a News box for better visibility. It's brilliant and something the rest of us should be putting in our notebooks.

2. Turning a group of people into a crowd. By the end of our show we should not be performing for a large group of individuals we should be performing for ONE audience ONE crowd. They should be working together as one. You explain that perfectly in your blog. We have to teach them to be a crowd and act as a unit and not as a group of individuals. They are all part of the show together and if we are good at what we do when the hat comes out they will all act as an audience to come forward and tip together as well.

A lot of the crowd building we do, "Okay I want everyone to clap and cheer" isn't just about expanding the crowd it is about setting the hook for when we say, "Okay I want everyone to come forward and put some frog skins in my chapeau". We have already conditioned them to follow our instruction as a group. When the hat comes out they will usually follow that instruction as well as long as we have been entertaining.

Just a great post Tom. Thanks for sharing it.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: bonehead (Feb 21, 2005 08:42AM)
Cod, that's a helluva cool blog. Holy Mackeral,do you ever flounder when drawing a crowd? That's some grouper you've drawn :D

Sorry...I couldn't help it.

Nice blog, and great tips.
Message: Posted by: Tom Frank (Feb 21, 2005 01:02PM)
Thanks guys. I appreciate the compliments. Getting ready to go out there again and get the rest of my rent!

Dan explained it well about the audience acting as one. I remember back when Cellini taught me this, he spoke of how the police deal with the "mob mentality" I learned that what happens with riots, is that people are stripped of their individuality and begin to act as one big ugly mass.

It's funny to think of all the specialized psychology that goes into a street show. It's also funny to think that there was a day when this information was gaurded as closely as how to get the loads in the cups. Now we live in an age of information changing hand so freely it boggels the mind.

Is this good or bad? I don't really worry about it. The bottom line is still. . . The only way to do it is to do it.
Message: Posted by: Kent Wong (Apr 14, 2005 10:21AM)
Tom,

I was the successful bidder for those Phoenix Cups you put on ebay. I just received them today and I have to say, ... they are beautiful! The weight makes the cups feel extremely solid and they do take a deceptively large load. I don't do a lot of stacking in my routine and so, that concern really doesn't bother me much. I know that I'm going to be using these cups for a long, long time.

I just wanted to drop you a note and say thanks!

Kent
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Apr 14, 2005 11:30AM)
[quote]
On 2005-02-11 03:05, Frank Starsini wrote:
He passed away?
When did this happen Bill?


[/quote]

Frank passed away during the summer of 2004.
Message: Posted by: TheAmbitiousCard (Apr 18, 2005 01:45PM)
I asked becuase I sent him three custom 6-high dice stacking cups
just about that time. Seemed like a nice guy . :(
Message: Posted by: magicmike.tk (Apr 18, 2005 02:40PM)
Hello,

I am not sure if there is a topic on this already, But what cups do you recommend for multi use?, (example: Private parties, close-up, street ect.) I have a set of cheap cups which sound bad, stack bad, and are very light.

I am looking for a decent, reasonable priced set of cups. What do you recommend?

Thanks,
Mike
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Apr 18, 2005 03:12PM)
This question has probably been asked, and answered, more than any other in this forum. Try our search engine and see if that helps.

Some believe this is the "Golden Age" of cups. There isn't any one all purpose set, but there are certainly more than ever before to choose from. Check out the website of Bill Palmer http://www.cupsandballsmuseum.com as well as James Riser's http://www.jamesriser.com for some comprehensive looks at what is currently available.
Message: Posted by: Kent Wong (Apr 18, 2005 03:12PM)
Mike,

I guess the answer really depends on what you consider to be "reasonably priced" and how often you are using them. If you are a hobbyist, a set of Morrissey cups in copper or brass may serve your needs very well. They stack nicely and willgive you a decent weight. You may want to give them a call though to see what the shipping charges would be to Ireland since they are manufactured in Canada.

I do apologize. I am not familiar with manufacturers in Europe who may be able to get quality cups to you at a more affordable price.

Kent
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Apr 18, 2005 03:27PM)
Try http://www.zauberladen.com/shop/default.php

They have a good line of products, including exclusive rights to the "Cellini" cups.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Apr 18, 2005 03:34PM)
Cellini is a great artist and magician, but TBH I dislike his cups..the wobbly thing and the rest of the 'design'..

Apart from the Paul Fox Cups, IMHO, the Charlie Miller style/Bertram Cups are very nice..

I also dislike Gazzos Cups, solely because I think they are way oversized..
Gazzo is a great artist too, it's just the cups he does use..way out of proportion.. :)

Reminds me of the earlier Chop Cups that where far too high, for the smal ball, no reason for such a high cup.

As well known, it was Don Alan that did cut off a large portion of the bottom of his cup..now the thing looked like it should..

Nothing wrong with the Cups Gary Aninal made for Gazzo, they are looking great, they are just way too large..just my humble opinion...

Anybody can look at Bill Palmers Cups and Balls Museum site and find cups they like -that it's not enough one does like them, there are other factors- but at least one can se what has been available and some of it still is, so one can choose from what's still available..
Good luck...
Message: Posted by: JamesinLA (Apr 18, 2005 04:49PM)
Gazzo's cups are actually rather squat. They aren't much higher than the oranges they are designed to hold. Pete Biro's Gali Gali cups have the exact same mouth diameter and are much taller than the Gazzo's. Interestingly, however, although the Gazzo cups are much shorter than the Biro cups, Gazzo's cups stack exactly the same height as the Biro cups because the bead is higher up the cup.

Jim
Message: Posted by: Glenn Godsey (Apr 18, 2005 07:02PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-18 16:34, Werner G. Seitz wrote:
Cellini is a great artist and magician, but TBH I dislike his cups..the wobbly thing and the rest of the 'design'..
[/quote]

I have grown to like the "wobbly thing" and I think that Cellini likes it too. He came to Tulsa about 14 years ago and during his stay, he converted me to the Charlie Miller Cups that he was using back then. They, in Cellini's hands were just as wobbly as his present cups. I had been using Paul Fox/Danny Dew cups for years, but I saw the appeal of all of the clanging around and wobbling that Cellini did. Now I have turned my Fox cups over to collectors (Bill Palmer and Denny) and I have been using some Phoenix seconds (although I usually choose to perform the chop cup). BTW, I hate to see the Phoenix cups go because no one else is making that wonderful Bertram/Miller shape.
I have done some paintings of cups and balls over the years (some of you have seen my painting in the Dai Vernon cove at the Magic Castle). When I show the paintings to laymen they usually think they are "thermos bottle tops" except for the painting of the Miller/Phoenix cups.
One thing I don't like about the Morrisey cups is their lack of wobble!

Best regards,
Glenn Godsey
Message: Posted by: Danny Hustle (Apr 18, 2005 10:18PM)
I worked the Boston Marathon today and was doing smaller shows. I did the Vernon routine with Gary Animal's babe cups loading tennis balls from the pocket. These are just super sweet cups. I am just as happy with my Gazzo cups he made.Gary really makes super products. It also felt pretty cool being so portable. My sound system was the heaviest thing I had to lug around.

Best,

Dan-
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Apr 19, 2005 01:04AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-18 16:34, Werner G. Seitz wrote:
...Apart from the Paul Fox Cups, IMHO, the Charlie Miller style/Bertram Cups are very nice..

I also dislike Gazzos Cups, solely because I think they are way oversized..
Gazzo is a great artist too, it's just the cups he does use..way out of proportion.. :)

[/quote]

I suppose that means I should make room for my Millers as well as my Gazzos? (Super Animal cups to be precise) Shouldn't take much, the Millers will nest neatly inside one of the bigger cups. It makes more sense if I'm to be in the Lobby during the intermission that it's probably too close for the big cups. I was thinking of doing something else, but now...
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Apr 19, 2005 02:04AM)
:)
My thoughts solely are around the fact, that it is the 'balls' they should be able to se, and so it's not the size of the cups that makes the routine/trick more spectacular?

If one does use a big container and a smal ball, does this make the happenings more visible?

That's my reasoning why I don't think too large cups are an advantage..it's what happens to the balls that counts, as well as a reasonable sized load also can be introduced inside the cups..

I don't say I'm correct, but am I wrong? :goof:

I'm willing to revise my view on this, but I simply can't se the cups oversize does add to what the specs can se is happening to the 'smal' balls...
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Apr 19, 2005 02:11AM)
Of course the "small balls" are proportionately bigger as well, which in itself poses other technical hurdles. I thought I knew C&B until I moved up to the Jumbos. It's nothing to hide a half inch ball between your fingers. Move up to and inch and quarter or more and it's a whole new ball game! All your moves have to be VERY PRECISE (thanks Gazzo) to prevent flashing. Even Gazzo has a set of small cups in his bag for when he's not entertaining hundreds at a time.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Apr 19, 2005 03:23AM)
I'm not impressed Dave :)
Who mention 1/2 an inch balls? :)
The outside diameter of the 'smal' balls accompanying the Paul Fox cups I got from Ken Brooke way back in the 1970, actually is 1 1/4 inches :kermit:

PS., just did some checking of balls to be sure I know what I'm talking about :) ..

I don't think anybody does use 1/2 an inch balls for the C&Bs, IIRC the most common used are 3/4 inchers, 3 of them can be on top of one cup, if one does the penetration/stacking moves, the 1 1/4 inchers can't be there on top of a Paul Fox cup though all 3 together.

Even for the Mini Chop Cup I do use slightly larger then 3/4 inchers, even the Mini Don from RNT II is supplied with slightly larger then the 3/4 inchers, the Morrissey balls for their Mini Chop Cup also are slightly larger then the ones from RNT II, so 1/2 inchers are [b]really[/b] smal, I don't hink anybody does use them for the C&Bs.. :)
Message: Posted by: chrisrkline (Apr 19, 2005 06:51AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-19 03:11, Dave VanVranken wrote:
Of course the "small balls" are proportionately bigger as well, which in itself poses other technical hurdles. I thought I knew C&B until I moved up to the Jumbos. It's nothing to hide a half inch ball between your fingers. Move up to and inch and quarter or more and it's a whole new ball game! All your moves have to be VERY PRECISE (thanks Gazzo) to prevent flashing. Even Gazzo has a set of small cups in his bag for when he's not entertaining hundreds at a time.
[/quote]

I mentioned this on an earlier thread. It still causes me some consternation. The people straight to the left are my biggest fear. For me, it is the tipover and the pick up the cup from the table moves where I discovered my biggest problem.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Apr 19, 2005 09:28AM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-19 07:51, chrisrkline wrote:
The people straight to the left are my biggest fear. For me, it is the tipover and the pick up the cup from the table moves where I discovered my biggest problem.
[/quote]The tip over - done by the right hand- , seen from the left side, is covered by the cup itself..have a renewed look at the move.
Apart from this, the attention of the specs 'should' be at the ball on top of the cup tipped into your left hand...don't worry to much, but make sure your angles are covered as mentioned above..
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Apr 19, 2005 10:54AM)
Sorry Werner, it was late. You're right, 1/2 in. balls are tiny. Paul Fox cups came with 1 1/4"? Are these the standard cups or chick cups? I can't imagine doing three balls in the "attic" with anything that big.
Message: Posted by: Werner G. Seitz (Apr 19, 2005 12:05PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-19 11:54, Dave VanVranken wrote:
Sorry Werner, it was late. You're right, 1/2 in. balls are tiny. Paul Fox cups came with 1 1/4"? Are these the standard cups or chick cups? I can't imagine doing three balls in the "attic" with anything that big.
[/quote]Yes, the ones I got from Ken Brooke came with 4 pcs. of 1 1/4 inchers and I actually used them as is, for a straight forward DV routine, with nothing added nor removed, nothing original in it at all.. :(
Standard cups, but as I said, one can't have 3 pcs. of 1 1/4 inchers on top of those cups.
IF one does do a routine where this is needed -a lot of ppl do- one has to reduce the size of the balls.
To do, f.ex., the Dai Vernon routine straight forward, that size is OK..
Message: Posted by: chrisrkline (Apr 19, 2005 02:02PM)
Werner, You are right, but sometimes I noticed my hands would open a little as I reached for the cups. With 1 1/4 inch balls, they would flash quite a bit. The trouble is that I have to leave my hands closed quite a bit to hide the ball and I think it looks like I am punching the cup (I know, overthinking.) What I do is move my hand with the wand (and ball) toward the base of the cup. I am talking about the ball on top and looking at eyes of the spectators. As I near the cup I drop the wand and them grab the cup. I move my left hand with my right to provide some cover.

I don't really worry about it. When I have done this on the street I just do it. I think through the routine and remind myself of danger areas, but when I start I just go. If I suspect that something flashed I ignore it and do better the next time. But I don't know that anyone sees anything.
Message: Posted by: michaelrice (Apr 19, 2005 03:46PM)
[quote]
On 2005-04-18 16:12, magicman845 wrote:
Mike,

I guess the answer really depends on what you consider to be "reasonably priced" and how often you are using them. If you are a hobbyist, a set of Morrissey cups in copper or brass may serve your needs very well. They stack nicely and willgive you a decent weight. You may want to give them a call though to see what the shipping charges would be to Ireland since they are manufactured in Canada.

I do apologize. I am not familiar with manufacturers in Europe who may be able to get quality cups to you at a more affordable price.

Kent
[/quote]

Well I would not be using them a lot, I basically just want a nice set of cups to start off with. Then maybe when I get better upgrade to more superior cups.

The price I am willing to spend is somewhere in around the $30 mark.
Message: Posted by: Dave V (Apr 19, 2005 03:53PM)
Then definitely look for someone who carries the Bazar de Magia line, whether it's our own Bill Palmer, or some dealer closer to your side of the world. Get the copper or even the brass ones, you'll like them much better than the aluminum ones. They look nicer and feel better. The aluminum ones are basically a cheap shiny version of what you already have.
Message: Posted by: Mark Rough (Apr 19, 2005 04:06PM)
Mike,

With the current rate of exchange, you should order from over here somewhere. You'll get a huge deal.

Mark
Message: Posted by: michaelrice (May 6, 2005 09:32PM)
I was browsing through ebay and came across these cups:

They are in my price range. Now all I need to know is if there good? Like the weight, size ect.

All I want is a farily nice set, nothing great. Are these a good price?
Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (May 6, 2005 11:18PM)
Those are not very good cups. They are aluminum, and therefore, quite light. The copper cups from Bazar de Magia (same manufacturer) are much better because of their weight. This is also true of the brass ones. The same seller there should be able to get them for you. The price will be in the neighborhood (I suppose) of £30 or so.
Message: Posted by: magic guy (May 31, 2005 12:05PM)
Saturday I did my cups and ball-bearings act on the street using a new set of Rings'n'Things II's Foxy IIs I bought from Stevens Magic here in Wichita. They're a good deal smaller than my Johnson Products cups, which means the ball bearings have to be smaller as well. They require a much more delicate touch, and that's turning me into a better handler. Additionally, I like the Chop Cup feature in this set. I use it to kick off the act with a one-cup "demonstration" using crocheted balls and rubber loads. Then I move to the ball bearings, and the contrast makes the three-cup act all that much more impressive. I was concerned about the small size of the cups and the ball bearings, but they were more than adequate for the audience to see. Lots of oohs and aahs, lots of laughs, lots of applause. The verdict: RNT II Foxy IIs KILLED! :)
Message: Posted by: nick nickolas (Jun 1, 2005 07:36PM)
I used to use the big 'Gazzo/Animal' Cups ... great as you never have any problem finding an orange too large,,,
Have now got the Animal Babe cups and love 'em they just don't look like they can hold a tennis ball(my load of choice) and the audience does respond to this accordingly, smaller cups than I have ever used but the audiances haven't shrunk