If you are going to use "a stooge" then go with Curly. Larry , Moe and Shemp usually mess things up.

I think Curly was too good of a stooge... use a fake stooge so go with Curly Joe.

Greg

Greg, I wonder if you noticed the part of my post where I happily acknowledged use of secret assistants is cool in certain circumstances? I hope, you didn't notice that and that is why you asked those leading questions? Well, to answer, let's just say I do indeed think it's legimate to have a coin hidden in your hand, and then to make is magically appear. But I don't think it's legimate, in a magic/mentalist performance, to have an actor tell the audience that you just read his mind (if the whole thing was simply prearranged).

With sincere respect to the greats of 50 years ago, or 100, years ago, or whatever, it's not on to say if it was good enough then, it's good enough now. Audiences are more sophisticated and knowledgable and skeptical. Illusionists, if they want to expand general appreciation in their art, can't just rest on their laurels.

Anyway, I wonder if you could explain why you would think it's probably a cop out to do a show where the illusions rely exclusively on the use of stooges? I assume you're not only referring to the possiblity of getting caught (which you mentioned above is one PERSONAL hesitation you have against them)? If you think stooges are just as legimate as tool as any other device, what would be wrong with using them exclusively?

Kennedy, with reference to the idea that it doesn't matter how you achieve the effect ("all's fair in love and magic) as long as no one ever finds out:

In your opinion, would it be copasetic for a mentalist to declare, "no stooges are used during this performance!!", and then to actually USE stooges?

You've got to be kidding! Every method would fall under that except the Galbraith Principle which is a thing of terrifying beauty.



Why would one EVER have to say that? Why disclaim anything? I think that stems again from magicians feeling guilty.

I think the only things a magician should feel guilty for are starting a cult or doing a performance unworthy of our art.

If one walks around feeling guilty and exuding guilt, then certainly the audience will ASSUME they ARE and start looking for the trickery and try to beat them. They become a swarthy, scheming crook and the audience is Perry Mason. If one walks around and exude sincerity, then the audience is free to be entertained instead of detectives.

We are creating an entire fantasy world in our performance. Of course everything is bull ****! They know it already. How is one pile of bull **** somehow more bull **** than another? Let the poor people have their minute of entertainment.



Ah you've been turned to the Dark Side

First, no I still would not use a stooge in my shows because I find there are always better methods.
Two, I think it would be a cop out to use all stooges the same way I would see someone doing a complete act that consisted of nothing but trick packets and gimmicked decks... I see it not as a cop out because it won't fool anybody... on the contrary, it will fool the normal public... I see it as a cop out because of lack of creativity
And three, I still don't get your argument about lying about having an extra coin or lying about a paid stooge.... in both cases the regular public will believe something has happened that has not.
Are you saying that only if YOU are fooled and it turns out to be a method you never heard of that then it is a good effect?
Is using a stooge to do an entire show or TV appearance an easy approach? Yes. Will it fool the public? Yes. Will you now be stuck with some people who meet you on the street and ask you to do it to them the same way? Probably. I'm sure Blaine suffered from people walking up to him and saying, "Float." His tricking up that view of the effect for the home audience didn't seem to affect his popularity.
So once again, do I use stooges? No. Do I care if someone else uses a stooge and fools the &$#@ out of me? No.
And there's also an art to using a stooge correctly... I've seen people use this method where it was very obvious.
Actually, I like the fact that some magicians and mentalists go for the stooge solution immediately because they cant' figure out the method... it makes me smile inside when I do something like that and I hear that as their answer... then I know I got 'em. When I did my stage show a couple of people thought I must have used a stooge or a hidden assistant to do Awe-sum-total because they knew the original method and they weren't seeing it applied when I did it.
In my opinion, we are in a field that has to do with trickery... and whatever it takes to get there is fine by me... short of breaking the law... I just choose certain rules that apply to my style.

Greg

There is nothing wrong with using stooges (in my opinion). However I would never use one myself. I think there is a lack of freedom in ones performance with a stooge. The outcome is out of the performers hands. And if it is a popular efect in your performance what do you do when your stooges are sick or bitten by a deadly spider and you must work alone. Can you duplicate the effect on your own.
And besides I guess I do not trust anyone enough to really use a stooge.
But again ..nothing wrong with stooges . I have seen some miracles done with them .
I just perfer to work alone.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with using stooges.
I have used stooges a lot in the past and have never been questioned about it.

if you do this a lot...have a team of stooges on contract... this way they are unlikely to reveal your secrets.

the strange thing is that some people have said that if people figure out your using stooges the game is up??? hummmm, these are people that are also saying that they wont lead people to believe they can realy read minds... hummm so it is ok to fool them in one way but not another? and there was me thinking that the method didn't matter so long as your audience was entertained.

I would like opinions...not abuse on my above comments.

Thanx
Jon

My opinion (and that is all it is) is that if you mention stooges to an audience you can immediately cause suspicion. Many members of a lay audience will not consider stooges, and thus you are putting the idea into their heads.

I am not condoning "stoogery" however, I use some very strange methods to cefefcts. I really don't mind what methods I have to employ, if it creates a startling, satisfactory result then I am happy.

My shows are all about the effect these thigns have on the audience, not HOW I make that happen, it goes back to the "its all in the presentation" argument again.

Like I say, this is merely an opinon from where I stand right now. It culd change in the next minute, day, week, month or year.

Best,
Kennedy

In fact, my instinct is that there is a very IMPORTANT reason for saying this. My guess is it will serve the purpose of BROADENING the appeal and OPENING up magic/mentalism to a bigger audience (two things which I would like to see happen).

Clifford La Rouge (as we'd say in Canada.,,hmm, on second thought, maybe that's "Le" Rouge...oh, well, nevermind), you'd agree that Derren Brown does magic/mentalism proud?

If you agree, then we should ask Derren Brown why HE gives exactly such a disclaimer at the start of his shows! (and I mean this literally, anyone know how to contact him? Or, see any mention of this topic in his books?). You don't really think he does it because he's feeling guilty, do you?



Ladies and Gentlemen, two days ago I made a prediction, sealed it in an envelope, signed, and dated it. I can now reveal that I have foretold the future, in that I have known all along that Clifford the Red was going to say that! I give you my word- no STOOGE was used, nor any PREARRANGEMENT of any kind! As proof of my achievement, I refer any interested party to the alt.magic.secrets newsgroup. There you will find a post entitled "Real Mentalism". And you will be able to confirm from the timestamp that the prediction was made nearly two full days prior to Clifford the Red's comments.

^_^



This gets to the fundamental reason why I think using stooges is a hindrance to expanding the popularity of mentalism. My idea is that using an extra coin (or whatever gimmick you might mention- since the vast majority of magic gimmicks I do believe are completely unheard of by the general public) WILL fool the regular public, but using stooges will NOT. Now, and this is important, I'm not saying the public will DEFINITELY know that a stooge WAS used. It seems to me it's not necessary for them to be SURE about it. But the very fact that they can instantly come up with a method the would allow them to recreate the effect with 100PCT accuracy from the audience's point of view- enables people to easily dismiss it (no matter how sloppy- or CLEVER- the ACTUAL method was). Do you agree with this notion, at all? A somewhat related idea is mentioned in "Magic for Dummies" book (pg. 38 "Truths of Magic, Part 2").

Maybe I can sum it up: first, does anyone DISAGREE with what Stephen Long ("If it gets out that you use stooges, you will loose all credibility and everything that was ever a mystery will be dismissed as mere stoogery") said? But I think the notion should be applied to mentalism as a WHOLE (not just one or another individual performer). For I'm suggesting that, in this day and age, it HAS gotten out that stooges are used. This is why so many (I want to say "the vast majority", but I don't have any polls to back that up, so I'll keep it more general) simply pooh-pooh mentalism and aren't willing to even give it a chance.

So, my idea, in this age of skepticsm, is that interest in mentalism could be broadened and expanded (and this is something that I personally WANT to see happen) if the use of stooges as a lynchpin device were disavowed.

Dunninger put up large amounts of Money to state he did not use stooges. Some effects can be so strong that it is important to rule this for the audience and future performances.