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teejay Inner circle Liverpool, UK 1831 Posts |
Hi Bobser
Excellent post Re NLP If you mean it doesn't work, try telling Tony Blair, Arnold Schwarzenegger or Anthony Robbins As in Mentalism, sometimes the performer doesn't get the best from his materials This includes people who teach others This is not criticism of yourself some of my closest friends don't rate NLP I have had lots of good results from using NLP so have some of my friends You, like me, have probably seen an effect and thought 'what a load of rubbish' and been astounded at a later date to see somebody bring the house down with it My latest one was seeing Bill Malone doing Bill In Lemon at Blackpool To me, it seems that NLP is the same as Mentalism in this respect The more you work at it the better you become Cheers TJ Quote:
On 2005-05-10 12:27, bobser wrote: Quote:
On 2005-05-10 12:35, dr chutney wrote: You are spot on with your joke but didn't it work well (NLP not New Labour LOL) TJ |
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The Gentleman Regular user SCOTCHLAND 102 Posts |
[quote]You, like me, have probably [quote]
Ha! Ha! Hahaahahahahahaaha! |
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RickDangerous Special user I can't believe I made 974 Posts |
Oh oh oh... the NLP discussion again.
I'm sure (cause I tried) that SOME things work. Not always, not on anybody, but they work. Let's say you are a performer (like Derren) and you need to get your audiences amazed every night, I'm sure you would almost ALWAYS use sure-fire methods. You could pretend to use NLP for some of the things you do, cause it disguises the actual methods beautifully. People think (cause it works sometimes): "Oh... that's how he does it, I don't get it anytime, but sometimes. I guess he just studied it very hard. Now he's a master, so it's logical that he always get's it right." Hope you get my point. Things like establishing rapport and getting connected with your audience works perfect with NLP. But it's not the essence. Don't make a religious thing out of it (Derren says the same )
"Reality is what you can get away with."
Robert A. Wilson "Think for yourself and question authority." Timothy Leary |
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DarkKnight Regular user 151 Posts |
Well said. What Derren does on stage versus what he does on TV is a world apart. I'm sure most mentalists viewing the stage show can figure out most if not all of it. He uses old sure-fire tried and tested methods that he knows will work night after night after all you don't want to fall on your arse in front of all those punters !
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aldryk New user 12 Posts |
Hey guys, thanks for the stream of replies...
a few things though... 1. RickDangerous - I understand what you are saying. and accept it. if not NLP as the essence , then what? cold reading? subliminal persuasion? all the above? all the above WITH the use of NLP? I don't think NLP or rapport work every time... I'm sure it doesn't, but as TJ put it - "the more you work, the better you become". 2. DarkKnight - Again, I agree. I now know that what seen on TV is not what can be seen in Real Life... or on stage in that matter... nonetheless, I do want to get to a point where I can use suggestions and subliminal persuasion (or perhaps hypnosis) more effectively , not only in magic or performance, but in everyday life too. that's were I'm aiming. (and I know it doesn't have to work all the time, most of the time is sufficient ) 3. Nimrod Harel - what an Honor! I'm glad you joined the chat.. I must hand it to you, your show did something to me... wheather or not you wanted it to and I started to look for the things that interest me in your show, things that I have also found on derren's show... After talking to Mr. Lustig (you know who I'm refering, I'm sure) who I know from the army I understand that not everything is what it seems to be, and I totally understand it. I do not want to be a master jedi with powers to change people's minds whenever I want to... (well, I do want that, but can't have it) but I do want to be able to use, as said before, subliminal persuasion, to be efficient with the skill or body language and muscle reading, etc... I have began with Oz Pearlman regarding card magic... and I'm doing quite well (will also go through the book you recommended) but I fail to see the connection between the stuff I want to achieve (mentalism) and card tricks (close ups?).. please enlighten me... 4. Mike - Thanks for the tip and bibliography my goal does not have to be performing... it can be manipulation through real life experience with people.. Thank you again, all of you. Aldryk
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I'm Lying. |
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PhatDad New user 91 Posts |
Aldryk, I think you are reading too much into Derrens act as to what NLP etc can do.
If you read Derrens book 'Pure Effect' you will see that it explains his ideas about giving a spectator a reason for the magic to work otherwise any intelligent person will try and turn it into a puzzle and reverse engineer what was done and eventually come up with the answer. I recently saw him on stage and he did what any other magician could do with the money and team he has to back them up. All of which was magic, but at the end he gave an explanation as to why the main effect worked explaining it as NLP, Subliminal messages etc. As people were leaving the show I heard them saying things like 'Wow, isn't it good how he used X technique and all the subliminal messages to make us think of the same thing' etc when really any magician could tell you he used certain 'magician' techniques to do it. This stops the spectators driving home after the show and thinking 'hmmm actually he was left alone with that item and he could have slipped the message in then' and reverse engineering it. What Derren does is good old magic but uses the persona of a talented, intelligent, suave and sofisticated mind reader to help make his magic all the more interesting and entertaining. |
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aldryk New user 12 Posts |
PhatDad...
Thanx for the reply. I do accept what you are saying and I know he uses NLP and other techniques to make the "real" magic trick work better. I mean that the use of other technique is secondary and not primary. nonetheless, if someone was to master those techniques, wouldn't he be able to create tricks where those techniques are primary and not secondary? or does it all sum up to a magic trick and not "pure" mentalism? Alsryk P.S. I'm still looking for a good (cheap) place to buy Pure Effect so haven't read it yet...
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I'm Lying. |
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PhatDad New user 91 Posts |
I was looking for a cheap copy of Pure Effect for ages too but couldn't' find one. Ended up having to pay full price for one and believe it was definatley worth the money.
You won't learn how he does his mentalist stuff from the book though. It is more a presentational guide with a few effects in there as examples rather than a book detailing all his mentalist stuff. As others have suggested if you want to go that route then get your self 13 Steps to Mentalism and Banacheks Psychological Subtleties along with Pure Effect. Still looking for his other book cheap though. |
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RickDangerous Special user I can't believe I made 974 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-12 17:17, aldryk wrote: Okay... the thing is, establishing rapport with my audience works very fast (most of the time), don't really know if it's NLP or not but it works The essence of mentalism... hmmmm.... it's not NLP, cold reading or any other technique... it's combining the outcome of an effect with your personality and elegance If you want to talk about the methods: It's a little bit like modificating Corinda and Annemann What I prefer is: Sit down, think big, make no visible compromise
"Reality is what you can get away with."
Robert A. Wilson "Think for yourself and question authority." Timothy Leary |
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aldryk New user 12 Posts |
RickDangerous - I understand. but you do support learning NLP, even if not the essence of the whole show, just to combine it with other techniques, right?
personality and elegance... hmmm where do you buy those? hehehehe PhatDad - I understand again. So I should now make a big buy at Amazon for the above books.. hehehe.... as for Pure Effect. its ok, if he doesn't give away his mentalist stuff... I do not expect him to do so.. but if its a persentational guide for beginners like me, its sufficient right now. I need to get the basics. after that I will know myself which path to follow to fulfill my interest. (and if I'm lucky, perhaps Nimrod will help me then *wink-wink*) Quote:
On 2005-05-13 04:45, RickDangerous wrote: I have a little problem with what you just wrote.. How can you say that when Derren (or Nimrod) tells a girl her last boyfriend's name, its not cold reading or any other reading technique? it must be... how do you attach it with personality and elegance? I agree about what you said with certain effects of tricks, but I'm having trouble accepting this perticular trick (and some others) to fit the model you described.
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I'm Lying. |
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PhatDad New user 91 Posts |
I think he's trying to explain that no matter how you come about the end result, be it trick, cold reading, trick, any other reading, forced card, trick, etc that he is using his image and personality to explain the outcome. The same occured with David Blaine in his first special when he did the 'Think of a number' and the Invisible Deck effects. People thought he was a mystic. They believed he had read their mind and therefor was a mentalist/mystic/god/guru or any other names they called him. The fact that he used well known magician tricks to obtain the results are not important.
If you go to university and get a degree in NLP, Phychology, Sociology, Hypnotherapy and any other type of 'ology' you are still not necesarily going to get the same reaction as someone who's bought the trick, invented himself as a suave, sofisticated, smoking jacket wearing persona and performs the effect a week after buying it. You may understand more, and be able to talk the talk and use long words and case studies as to why your spectator is going to name the Ace of Spades but at the end of the day it's the same effect. You would probably be better off, buying the effects and then spending the time inventing your persona and honing the skills needed for that than learning all the ins and outs of NLP, Psychology etc. |
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teejay Inner circle Liverpool, UK 1831 Posts |
[quote]On 2005-05-12 10:40, The Gentleman wrote:
[quote]You, like me, have probably Quote:
Hee!Hee!Nicely spotted TJ |
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aldryk New user 12 Posts |
PhatDad - nicely put... I totally agree with everything you said. now I just need to find the tricks... and from what people have told me here, I seem to have a nice list of books to aquire. (13 steps to mentalism, pure effect, Psychological subtleties, and so on..)
then, after learning the tricks, I can develop my persona. right? Thank you again for the help
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RickDangerous Special user I can't believe I made 974 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-05-13 13:17, PhatDad wrote: What else can I say?! Perfect... PhatDad completely understood what I was trying to say. Next thing is: If Derren (or any other mentalist) tells somebody the name they were thinking of, you can be sure there's (almost) no cold reading involved. There are others methods (just study the books and you'll see what I mean) to get this kind of informations. I do not really use NLP for any of my effects cause it doesn't matter how hard you practise it, it'll never be 100% save. I would suggest you should forget NLP completely for creating effects. In things of handling your audience it CAN help, but I think it's not really neccessary. NLP got some nice ideas, but it's a "science" that was never (and will never be) proven to be true. Greetz Rick
"Reality is what you can get away with."
Robert A. Wilson "Think for yourself and question authority." Timothy Leary |
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aldryk New user 12 Posts |
Thanx Rick, TJ, PhatDad, Bobser, Roki and everyone else who helped me here so much!
Aldryk
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I'm Lying. |
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magic in mind Special user 851 Posts |
Best off me thinks starting off with cups and balls.
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