My friends,
this is a question I am posting on a few other forums for its importance.

I am in the process of building 4 different one-hour magic lessons.
One of which will be a some-what "mentalism" lesson.
I will offer these lessons as "magic workshops" to whomever pays enough.

Before I finish putting these workshops together, I come to you with a question.

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*What do you think we should be able to teach lay men?*
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Some of you might find this option to be unthinkable.
Consider that Amazon sells most of the best beginners' magic books for 10$.

Hopefully this question will cause a serious discussion, not an outrage.
Lets settle this issue.

Thank you.
Roi.

I suppose it depends why people will pay to attend your course. Curiosity? Learn secrets; that'd be cool? Or are you attracting people who genuinely wish to learn about this wonderful art form in all its manifestations? Is this a course that you hold at a venue, or something done online?

How are you advertising and to whom? What is your target audience? What's the title; Be A Magician In Four Hours?

You can't really ask what the subject matter should be until you've decided your target audience. And yes, for a few dollars they can pick up some basics; there are loads of books of card tricks and simple effects. But surely any course should be more than just a trick fest. The history, the subtlety, presentation, practice, spectator management, more practice. Then discuss a trick or method to put it all in context. Are you weeding out the secret searchers, or don't you care as long as they pay?

Dear Roi,
I'd suggest first of all that in a forum such as 'this' you might consider (out of respect for its residents) changing the question to:
Are you all happy with me teaching laymen all of your secrets? Or which ones don't you mind me telling them in order for me to make money for divulging those same secrets you all seem to hold onto so dearly?

I say this Roi simply because at the end of the day working mentalists (or good hobbyists) simply would prefer if no one ever gave laymen our secrets.
Let me put it this way;
"How much of all 'your' personal repertiore would you be happy with me divulging to your friends, clients and future audiences? All of it? Only half? Or maybe you'd prefer if I didn't?
And If I tell you that someone else (say 'Amazon') are doing it so that should make it ok for me to do the same does that make it so much better?

I think we all collectively made a big mistake by letting 'Valentino' believe that it's all ok by not removing at least one of his legs! (that's a kinda' joke)
Never mind all those old wise magicians from years gone by who met us in the magic clubs and told us all their secrets, and for absolutely no fee whatsoever, as long as we understood that in turn we could only pass these secrets on to fellow brother (and of course sister) magicians and mentalists.
I seem to remember taking an oath to that effect. But maybe oaths are for sale in Amazon nowadays? Just how much would that be?

AsRoki said, Good luck with your question.

Bobser.

Bobser, I have deep respect for you!

Roi - there's an old saying. Those who CAN, DO! Those who CAN'T, TEACH!

Why not go out and make the money you need by performing? Why do you feel the NEED to teach?

Unfortunately there is nothing stopping you from teaching anything - only your morals. Which are hopefully intact.
people have been exposing magicians and mentalists for decades and to be honest it hasnt really done any harm (!)

bobser - very nice post and well put.

As Roki said, Good luck with your question.

Dear friends,

I read your anger loud and clear.
You neglect to see the plain fact that I am bringing this question to you out of respect and with a ambivalent heart.

There is no need to assume I don't perform and there for am incompetant.
I seek your help and guidance, my friends.
The fact is I don't, as of yet, teach anyone anything.

My target students are people interested in learning the craft.

We all learned from someone, and the knowlege should be passed on to the next generation.

Please bear in mind that I come to you with this question because I realize the delicate situation.

Here in Israel we don't have old magicians from years gon by to meet us in dark clubs. There are only us, none of us over 40.
Please take my question with the respect in which it was meant.

Unless a set of guidlines is asstablished, anyone can do whatever they please.

Yours truly,
Roi.

Roi,
I am from Israel too.
We have ISPAM (Israel Sociaty for Promoting the Art of Magic) and we have the ability to get books and DVD from all around the world.
This is the way I learnt (and am learning) and propably you learnt this way as well. I think it is perfectly fine.

If someone is really interested, he can find the time to explore and investigate, to buy books and spend time reading them and get experience over time. He can then join ISPAM and have access to meetings and the top Magicians in Israel.

By doing some seminar or lecture you won't help anyone become someone, you will simply help yourself. If you truly want to help the young ones, you should participate more in Israeli Magic forums and such. People who come to those kinds of forums and stay there are the people who really card about the art.

My opinion.

Those forums are completely open to anyone.

You still don't answer my question.
I never said anything wrong about the ISPAM.
Even if I choose to give my lectures there, my question still remains.

Also, have you concidered those who do not speak English?
All I am saying is that sooner or later (some are doing it already) someone will teach.

There should be a discussion about boundries and limits.
I don't HAVE to get your opinions - I WANT TO.

Please answer with true thought.
Roi.

"You neglect to see the plain fact that I am bringing this question to you out of respect and with a ambivalent heart."

You didn't sound ambivalent - you stated you were working on the classes, period.

"There is no need to assume I don't perform and there for am incompetant."

Perhaps not, but why not just perform and let people find their own way? It's much more fun and rewarding.

"My target students are people interested in learning the craft."

Regardless of income, area, location of magic stores, if someone is REALLY interested they will find out what they need.

"Here in Israel we don't have old magicians from years gon by to meet us in dark clubs."

In my experience, local magic clubs are the LAST place you go to for learning magic...

"Unless a set of guidlines is asstablished, anyone can do whatever they please."

Nobody is saying you can't, just that it is highly questionable.

I don't want to teach anything that would harm careers.
That is why I ask my question.
I don't want to go by my instincts alone.

About the clubs - it was a reply to someone else's remark.

If you read carefully, I said I plan to make ONE OF FOUR lessons about something close to mentalizm.
Because I am aware of the delicat subject, I brought it up here.
To the experts.

Please answer me with less anger and more to the point.
My workshops, if they will exist, will be very exclusive and private.
Nothing massive, I don't plan to make a lot of money - I have a day job.

The money I will charge will be as a screening.
Also, not anyone will be accepted.

Remember - I come in peace.
This is my bread and butter too.
Roi.

I don't think anyone has answered you with anger Roi. You have asked a question and the consensus at the moment is that people would rather you didn't teach, but that the decision is yours.

I very much doubt that these same people who would prefer you didn't teach are going to advise you on WHAT to teach.

"Those forums are completely open to anyone."

So is this forum.

"Also, have you considered those who do not speak English?"

We do have forums in Hebrew.

To answer your question, if you are planning to satisfy laymen intrest then the answer is obvious and if you are planning on teaching students with some background the question is irrelevant because they probably already knmow all the concepts that you will allow yourself to teach.

Mishel, when I said "English" I meant the CDs and books, not forums.

Those of you who hold on to your "NO" - never mind.
As "bartlewizard" so rightly said - you will not have anything to say.

Everyone else: any thoughts?
There must be an area on which we can reach a sollution.

To all the wonderful magicians and my friends:
If I see your opinion is so strongly set, than that will be my guide.

I, too, have learned the hard way.
Couldn't we open up a thin slott in the door to help others along?

If so, my question still remains: how thin should this slott be?

I know some of you do have a contributing opinion.
I would love to get it.

With respect,
Roi.

"Mishel, when I said "English" I meant the CDs and books, no forums."

Sorry Roi, my mistake.

I wasn't going to say anything more but I just have to quote something that a character said in the TV series "Lost". It said that if you help a moth get out of it's cacoon, he won't survive. Nature had a mechanism for making sure the moth is ready to emeege from it's cacoon. By opening a sloth in the cacoon you may think you are helping him, but actually you are not.

Just a nice image. By making it easy for people to learn they will not be strong enough to think for themselves. By learning the hard way you learn much more.
But as you asked, I will stop now.

I will never find me in the state of teaching mentalism etc. because I will still have to learn a life long...

I am so sorry if I offended anyone with my question.

Obviously this is a highly problematic issue.

My intentions were and still are honest.
Your opinion is most important to me.
Mishel and bartlewizard, you have made your point very clearly to me and others.
Thank you very much for your interest in this.

Perhaps this isn't the right way to handle such a discussion.
Maybe this isn't the right forum.
I can at least say for sure that the mentalists are the only one who answered my questions about what to teach with such enthusiasm.

Roi.

I would suggest you structure your class on Mark Wilson's Complete Course in Magic, this one book will cover all the areas you seem to be looking for. Also, each student should purchase a copy of this book so they will have bought the "rights" to all of the effects, they will also have a great reference to keep. The book is highly illustrated and with your help even someone who does not speak English will learn from it. The book is located here:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/det......;s=books

It does cover mentalism techniques such as the C. tear, 1-ahead, M. Choice, and so much more (mentalism, cards, ropes, coins, all the way to stage illusion)

I think a class with someone skilled in the techniques going through the Mark Wilson Course would be a service of great value. I wish you luck and success with this idea.

I think you may have caused a stir by phrasing your question "What do you think we should be able to teach lay men?"... I hope you mean "What do you think we should be able to teach laymen that are willing to pay for a class because they want to become magicians?"

The latter is more than fair while the former is simply inexcusable exposure.

Already being discussed in food for thought.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......7&15