As more of a lurker than a poster, I have noticed what I consider to be a bit of disturbing advice given to a number of inquiries. Too many times I have read "That book is too advanced for you, stick to the classics like ...(fill in the blank), that's all you need" While from a performance point of view this might be true, I believe that this could be a bit stifling. Let me explain my thoughts and I would be interested in any feedback.

I used to be into chess - not so much from a tournament aspect but more from a study and enjoyment. I would love to read books and games by the masters. I could never play at that level, but it was enjoyable and educational to see patterns develop, strategies drawn and ideas deployed. I found myself picking up tidbits here and there that sometimes even showed up in my games.

On to magic - I love to read books at all levels. Case in point: I recently picked up "Drawing Room Deceptions" for a song (I love used bookstores!). Is this beyond my abilities? You bet! Is it a good read? It's fantastic. Not only is it well written and very readable, it allows you into the creative mind of the author and lets you see how he approaches problems and comes up with solutions. Will I ever perform something from the book? Probably not. Will I draw on the ideas? Absolutely.

While a strong foundation is necessary for performance, it is not necessary to enjoy and to learn from advanced bools. I know what a pass is, I just can't do one very well. My inability to perform a pass does not prevent me from reading a routine where a pass is performed and asking myself "Why was a pass used here instead of something else?" or saying "That's clever! now I see how that contributes to the effect"

My advice is to read, read and read some more. If you don't understand something then look it up. What you are doing is building a mental foundation so when your abilities reach that stage you will be prepared.

What do you think?

- Jud

I could'nt agree with you more. Back in the late '60s as a teenage fledgling magician I acquired "Close up Card Magic" by Harry Lorayne. At that time I considered this book too advanced for me, for I did not know the necessary sleights to properly perform the tricks within it's covers. The sleights it did show (his DL) I did learn and to this day I still use it as well as the hit DL that I learned from "Stars Of Magic". The good thing about books is that they are an excellent reference that can be accessed at any time when the time is come. Everyone comprehends and learn differently and not all at the same time. I am still learning from all the early publications that I've collected throughtout my journey in magic. Reading books at any level is fundamental and I love it too!
:bluebikes:
<<<KRaZy4kardz>>>

Very True, The problem is that many here don't see it that way, if you want to be a "serious" student. Though, I think each person studies and learns according to his/her abilitities. I started out with what might be considered advanced books, and I learned a lot from them. Eventually, I acquired the books that are considered basic, but I found that they were mostly a reference (like a dictionary or encyclopedia). The Mayority that was in there I had learned from other sources, but they were still interesting to read.
Many here are of the idea that to study magic, one should start with the very basic. Like when one is a child and you have to learn the alphabet before learning small words, and so on. I disagree, I think we can learn according to what interest us, it's not neccerary to be so strict about it.

I first started with Royal Road and Daryll's Encyclopedia. There are a few effects in the encyclopedia, but I was learning things really without context.
Regardless, when I started into magic vids and books proper, I found that I could do most of the slieghs without too much effort, and it was rewarding to see the work contextualized.
I still own books where I find the material too difficult - and not only magic books - and this stuff keeps you thinking, and keeps you striving.

A.

"Oh that a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a Heaven for?"

...Robert Browning

I have bee interested in magic almost 60 years. I didn't get interested in

slight of hand close up untill 20 years ago. The first book I bought was

" The Complete Works of Derick Dingle " I could one trick in it. Next " The

Clasic Magic of Larry Jennings " I settled into 100% card magic and bought

just about everything that came out till 2000.I still find good stuff that

I passed over for the last 20 years. The point is if it's beyond you today

you'll catch up if you stay interested and have the desire. Mike Walsh

Even in books that are overall quite advanced (like Drawing Room Deceptions), there will be stuff that isn't so hard (for instance, Waving the Aces from DRD).

I would never tell somebody not to read something because it is beyond their level. However, I often do recommend that people go through Card College before they consider themselves to be "intermediate" or "advanced." Like chess and playing music, the fundamentals must be mastered in the best possible way. Building a foundation of technique is extremely important before going onto a lot of knucklebusting.

I had Jim Swain book that was too tough for me.

But being inspired is the best way to make someone go through the basics. If only teaching was like this in school, a lot more would be interested. who gives a crap if you know algerbra. I am sure every kid in the world asked "why would I need to know A + B = C". if only the teacher told you the amazing things you do with it, like something that can relate to the kids, than it would be easier to go through the basics. knowing what is out there in front of the road is a good way for you to learn hard and get there. If I went though a book like card college and only knew a few "glide tricks" (being extreme) and didn't know that there were anything more advanced, I would not be into magic as much. but if I picked up a book or saw some amazing magician perform much more advanced material, I would work toward that.

but people now a days are all about "now now now" but in the end, who learns the basics will always be ahead. doesn't mean you can't look at the "menu"

Tony C.

I think there are many different ways to become proficient at something. I'm not saying that advicing someone to read Card College is a bad thing. (There's great information in there), But I don't think it should be told as a requirement. When a person reads it, it should be because that person finds it interesting, not because you're being forced to read it. It gives back that sense of being in school were you're assigned things that you don't care for.
In regards to the music analogy, I've known great musicians who never took music lessons. The music runs in their veins, and they've learned their craft "by ear".
Can't we do that in magic? Why can't we have that feel for things, to learn them "by ear".

I have to agree w/ Jud that there's something to be learned in any book, or should be.
Books are a great investment and inspire.
Often we don't know how complex the technical work in a book will be until we buy it. Usually there is at least a couple of gems that may stike your fancy and get you working or thinking about your own possibilities.

A book that gets into misdirection, presentation and other aspects of routining is worth it's weight in gold. If you only read the tricks without analyzing you may be missing the mortar that builds a good foundation.

So I don't forget my beginnings and that keeping it simple is best, I often go back and read "The Amateur Magicians Handbook", "Modern Coin Magic", "Closeup Card Magic" and other of my first books. Sometimes just to clear my head.

Well, I hardly think I have that influence over people! Still, the incredible advantages of learning from Card College as opposed to a less directed meandering through the thousands of books and videos on card magic really make it worth a very strong recommendation. You learn not only the most up to date sleights, you also learn gobs of incredibly powerful information about theory, construction, etc. Can people become great magicians without reading Card College? Absolutely. But since it's been published as a resource and it's available, why wouldn't you? Can it only help you? Absolutely.




That's an interesting question. I am a musician and I've learned both by ear (in rock bands) and through extensive schooling in classical music. There are advantages to both. You have a point, but the analogy doesn't hold up in that you can't really learn magic "by eye" the same way you can learn music by ear. The secrets and sleights are supposed to be hidden from spectators, so you will never know what to practice if you don't get your hands on the materials one way or another, or get somebody accomplished to teach you personally. You don't see child prodigies just picking up cards and doing a multiple palm shift just because they have "a gift."

To put it another way, the world knows of many brilliant "self taught" musicians. Can you think of any "self taught" cardmen who didn't learn from books, videos, or personal teachers? I think when one knows a lot of the basic moves, one can be self taught to an extent and come up things. But not just naturally and organically, the way many children take to music.

Just a quick clarification here - I'm not advocating to bypass getting the fundamentals down. I love Card College and would recommend it to all. What I will keep on repeating is that there is advice given on this board that specifically says to stay away from advanced material until you master the basics. That is bad advice! One should read and study material that is beyond his performance capability.

Certainly the mind can see what's going on even if the fingers don't want to cooperate. Let's face it - there isn't that much you need to know to understand even the most advanced card book. Now doing it - that's another matter. But in the meantime you are exposed to all kinds of techniques, constructions, ideas, etc.

As a follow on question: Do you think that you can get the same experience I described by watching advanced videos and DVDs? The jury is still out on that one in my mind.

- Jud

Tony is correct. Not learning the basics of the craft leads to limited means of expression. If all you WANT to express is who Paul Harris is, or who Jay Sankey is fine. But if you want to express yourself, it helps to have a vocabulary with which to do it.

You learn Algebra because you can't do advanced math without it.
You learn grammar because you can't write well without it.
You study the classics of magic (Card Collage, Expert at the Card Table, etc.) because they give you the alphabet with which to write your own stories…

Yes - Learn the basics. This is a given. But in the act of learning the basics please don't limit yourself in your studies. Read all you can. It will be invaluable in the end. The basics can take time to assimilate. In many cases it is training muscles to work in ways that they aren't used to. This can take time. Don't feel that you cannot explore the advanced stuff during this period. You will learn that there is more to the game than just learning the moves.

- Jud

Once again this post brings out the importance of a rating system for ability. A need to describe the level of competence for sleights and tricks. (If you eliminate performance and presentation, this should not be hard.) A book which may be over your head one year, may be just perfect the next, depending on your level of skill and the improvement made over that year.

Right now, Darwin Ortiz's books are mostly over my head. Next year maybe not. it would have ben nice if I knew that before I bought them. How would I describe my level of ability to ask that question on this forum? When someone touts a book or dvd, it would be nice to know how advanced that teaching aid is, rather than wasting your money on something that is too advanced for you. Most other endeavors (tennis, golf, bridge, etc. all have rating systems.) Wouldn't it be nice if we could all agree on a system?

Almost every book or CD I get has something that is beyond my ability (or at least my desire). Sometimes people who perform magic may not understand that some persons like you are curious minded and enjoy just studying effects that they may never perform. I,too, study a lot of magic that I know I will never perform, some is beyond my ability and others beyond my interest. Keep studying and learning and some day, who knows, those things may be well within your ability.

Some older works, like The Art of Magic and the Hoffmann Magic books are available online and at relatively low prices. When asked for a recommendation for a work to study, it seems only natural to suggest the student examine our classic works. As to the skill level of café members, there is probably a broad spectrum of skill and talent here so it does not make sense to presume upon the poster or the other readers.

Jonathan - I agree 100% with a recommendation to go to the classics. What is wrong is often the second part of the recommendation. It usually goes like this " ... then when you have mastered the work in there, move on to more advanced books." If your sole aim is to amass tricks that you can perform, then perhaps this is good advice. If you want to understand about the craft, then read, read and read some more. I think that the basic routines that you are learning while getting the basics down will be more meaningful and become better when illuminated with light from other sources.

- Jud

That "second part of the advice" creeps me out too.

When recommending the old books, MY agenda is to offer the student a chance to see what ideas were around then and how they were handled then. That way the student is less likely to get get caught up in trivial re-inventions and can appreciate the truly novel and recent works. This is FOR the student, not TO the student.

If you want to read between the lines... here goes:

There is a good deal of derivitive junk out there, whose good parts are borrowed from older works. You can get many of the older works very cheaply. It is in your economic interests to take advantage of the classic works so you can make informed decisions about purchasing newer works.

Sadly, the books I find wonderful troves ( the galloway/ramsay books) are not so cheap so I only recomend the one you can get cheaply, The Ramsay Legend.

Pea$e