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Matt Pulsar Inner circle 1130 Posts |
I think it is a bad idea when any entertainer has a platform or world view he is trying to enforce on his audience. You are there to entertain, whatever your beliefs may be, leave those at home. You will have a mixed audience and they will not appreciate being told they are wrong or that you are right. In terms of the last post, "unscrupulous thieves" is some hard talk. What happened to you? Do you just think that because you learned the how in this world that you can judge others and there practices. I agree that there are unscrupulous thieves in the world, but not all of anything is good or bad. I would never say that all Priests are bad because I know some are. I also can not presume all astrology or palmistry is bad because some are using it in a way to sucker people. My conclusion on this issue has to be that we use the disclaimer because we feel guilty. We are worried that someone will believe us and we will have to deal with that. And, they are going to believe us often. If we feel that way, perhaps we should not be doing mentalism. I am not out to sucker anyone. I do believe that mentalism is good entertainment. I also don't believe we need to destroy the mysteries of the world. The beauty of the mystery is why I first got into this.
Belief Manifests Reality.
Nebula CT: https://www.penguinmagic.com/p/8517 |
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cardone Special user 860 Posts |
I think that one truth ideas are simmilar to fascism.... One God /no god= one truth....... Many gods /many philosiphy =many truths one truth =spiritual fascism. For me good art is at the cusp of stupidity and smart. Good magic is at the cusp of true mystery and the suspention of disbelief.
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asper Veteran user 364 Posts |
If you leave your beliefs at home and simply "entertain", you're not an artist. Beliefs can be range from things like "people shouldn't stop when they get to the top of an escalator" to beliefs on atheism.
P&T, share their beliefs and that's what makes them interesting. We have enough bland magicians doing pointless, supposedly, entertaining magic. |
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kyle_freemason Elite user 409 Posts |
I like many of the other performers, make a disclaimer that what I am about to do is not real but rather illusion to show that it is possible to do the impossible. When I do this and rebuke the fact that I have true powers, people often still attribute them to me and if they do so even after having been told the truth, then it is no longer weighing on my shoulders. As for the matter of religion vs occultism or that what I am doing is evil... I tend to let everyone draw their own conclusions, however, everything I perform is done strictly as an illusion with no attempt to make anyone think I have any true "evil powers."
MM
Butler # 254 |
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7th_Son Elite user Australia 437 Posts |
You can always start the show saying nothing - and let the audience think you are the real thing.
At the end of the show, you tell them the truth.
"Here's to our wives and girlfriends...may they never meet!" - Groucho Marx
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J ack Galloway Inner circle 1309 Posts |
And what is the truth?
I can do what I say. No lies I can. what is the truth left to tell? Jack H.O.A_X |
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Matt Pulsar Inner circle 1130 Posts |
Quote:
If you leave your beliefs at home and simply "entertain", you're not an artist. Beliefs can be range from things like "people shouldn't stop when they get to the top of an escalator" to beliefs on atheism. Not exactly what I was talking about. First of all you can be a perfectly wonderful artist and leave your beliefs at home. You could do a brilliant silent act and make things appear and disappear and change and mystify your audience and it could be some of the best art around. Or, perhaps you are a formalist painter, whatever. The beliefs I am speaking of in this case are specifically religious or political. And I am not talking about those who simply incorporate themselves and their world into the piece, but those who are preaching. The guy, I don't know his name, who ends his show with a hell, faith and ***ation bible story is a good example. Of course there are art forms where I think it is perfectly acceptable to make this kind of statement, I do not however believe magic or mentalism to be one. One good reason is that people are there for entertainment, and another is that it is not a completely passive art, you want people to be engaged, to be brought together, and to become a part of the magic, not push them away or make them feel trapped. I do find Pen&Teller interesting, but I don't think it is because they share there beliefs. They have a good show, they have great personality and are wonderful performers. And as to the last part I am sure you are correct. But if you give those performers a platform to shove down the gullet of the audience are you making them better?
Belief Manifests Reality.
Nebula CT: https://www.penguinmagic.com/p/8517 |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
"Shove down the gullet"? "...view he is trying to enforce"?
Stuart, are you referring to mentalist disclaimers, or something else? If a mentalist tells the truth about his act (nothing supernatural going on, etc.), is that "enforcing a view" or shoving a view down the gullet? Isn't it a simple statement of fact? Cardone: Are you equating mentalism disclaimers with fascism? If not, please elaborate, if you don't mind. -Jim |
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Al Straker Grammar Host Australia 1129 Posts |
Annabelle (Hi gorgeous!!), you are exactly correct in what you say and that is the approach I prefer. You know when you are becoming believable as people stop asking 'How did you do that?' and instead they ask 'How did you know that?'. Whether the people in fornt of you are believers or skeptics, it's best to keep the mystery in it for all of them as both sides of the fence will still wonder if they are 'right' to varying degrees. Building up the suggestions (NOT direct statements) implying you have a 'real ability' during the show will really deepen the mystery for both sides of the fence and make the overall performance more intriguing IMHO.
By making a definitive claim one way or the other you are destroying the mystery for the people on one side of the fence as they will feel that you have 'let them in on what is really going on'. A lot of this depends on the premise you have used to book the performance. If you are booked as a psychic/mindreader, you may encounter more people inclined towards being believers. If you are booked as a magician, forget it the game is up (although you may still strike a hardened believer). In a funny kind of way expectations really do become reality, hence the power of suggestion in all arcane arts. Best of all is when you are asked to do something impromptu and you use heaps of suggestions to imply that what you are about to do is a 'real demonstration' without giving them the slightest whiff of the word trick or magician. Suggestive statements such as: 'I find it difficult to get clear reading at this time of day... but none the less if you are prepared to concentrate with me we may still succeed.' 'It's interesting, you may not have noticed this but when we met I had a feeling I had a message for you at some stage during our chat...' 'Focus on that thought you are holding and make it kind of blaze brightly inside your own mind... good, did that thought seem to have real substance to you? Excellent, it did to me to...' 'Have you had many past experiences that validated (or awoke) your sense of intuition?' etc, etc The suggestions really work best on the skeptics - if your performance material is strong they just have to start questioning their own beliefs. For the believers, suggestion just drives the believability factor home harder. Thes are some of my preferred (original wording as far as I know) suggestion techniques, Kenton has many more of these and other concepts on Wonder Words. Wonder Words may not be everyone's cup of tea but it certainly has some excellent thinking on this age old dilemma. Luke Jermay is a true modern day genius in this area. Fascinating subject. To be or not to be, that is the question... Best to all, Al
Al Straker
Resident Mystery Entertainer at Multiple Venues Music & Mentalism Specialty Act 'Completely Mental' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyGhApqnG7I (Old clip, show has changed quite a bit since then!) Jazz & Contemporary Musician/Composer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnN3JNmeKns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU_zfOvpneA |
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Matt Pulsar Inner circle 1130 Posts |
This statement of mine has strayed from the first topic, you are right. Sorry about that Jimtron. What I a making refrence to in the last couple of posts is more the mentalist who uses the disclaimer as the focal point of the show. So that the show exists as a debunking of the paranormal in and of itself and then consists of mental magic staples which are introduced as not real, and that is the point of the show. I have seen a few of these lately. This just gets me angry.
Belief Manifests Reality.
Nebula CT: https://www.penguinmagic.com/p/8517 |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Stuart:
No need to apologize; I was just trying to understand your posts. What is it about this kind of show that gets you angry? Would you mind saying who the performers were? Was Derren Brown one of them? -Jim |
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cardone Special user 860 Posts |
For me Facism is the "one way or the highway " way...sorry for all the ways...This is a method for not letting people make up their own mind.... A disclaimer is like a pair of giant scissors cutting out a large portion of the wonder. This would be the one way. Talk about killing a lot of misdirection.
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Cardone:
Thanks for the response. I understand how a disclaimer could be seen as diminishing wonder. But is a mentalism disclaimer really facistic? Isn't a disclaimer a statement of fact? How is that an example of "my way or the highway"? |
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cardone Special user 860 Posts |
......because most people believe in ghosts and some sort of fantastic phenomena.... buy starting the show on that note you are saying that in my world....this is the truth..... and don't even try to reason how the effects are done .... other than my sleight of hand and maybe some sort of trick deck.
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chmara Inner circle Tucson, AZ 1911 Posts |
Ethnics...we don need no stinkin ethnics --- It's hard hearin a bed eccent from da stage....
Oh you said ETHICS. Those either.
Gregg (C. H. Mara) Chmara
Commercial Operations, LLC Tucson, AZ C. H. Mara Illusion & Psychic Entertainments |
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Quote:
...and don't even try to reason how the effects are done... Who says that? If I was to do a mentalism show, and I have a disclaimer that I'm not doing anything supernatural, but instead using my five senses to create the illusion of a sixth, is that offensive to you? Most disclaimers don't include, "if you believe in ghosts you're an idiot" or "don't believe in ghosts," do they? Don't the disclaimers in question simply state a fact about the performer and his act? Do you know of any performers whose disclaimers tell the audience what they should or shouldn't believe (aside from the performer's act)? |
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kyle_freemason Elite user 409 Posts |
I think there is a certain level of ethics we must maintain in magic all together. I believe that if you present yourself as having powers you do not have then that is wrong. It does not matter if you tell an audience that you do not have any special abilities, once you do your routine, if you were convincing enough, they will attribute powers to you on their own. I do not see a need to falsely sell ourselves to audiences...what is the point of doing that?
MM
Butler # 254 |
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Matt Pulsar Inner circle 1130 Posts |
Jimtron, yes. There are performers out there who directly say "none of this is real" and then describe the people who believe or practice in such things as: palmistry, clairvoyance, astrology, even a state lottery, as idiots. There are some out there using the art as a platform for skeptic nialist dogma. This is what makes me angry.
To say something around the lines of "I have five seances, just as you do, I just use them differently. etc." is totally aacceptable. Although in some situations I think even this is not needed. Those who are using mentalism in the for-mentioned way refer to this sort of disclaimer as double talk, and have said it is also unethical. Which I disagree with. And no, this has nothing to do with Dareen Brown. I do not wish to name the performers I am speaking of because I don't think it is necessary or called for.
Belief Manifests Reality.
Nebula CT: https://www.penguinmagic.com/p/8517 |
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T-RAY Inner circle 1539 Posts |
Reality is an illusion, so why worry about it:)
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jimtron Inner circle 2039 Posts |
Stuart:
Thanks for the reply. Does this person literally use the term "idiots" to describe believers in the paranormal? If so, I agree that that is offensive. And he or she says, "don't even try to reason how it's done?" I find that offensive as well. But I personally don't have a problem with a mentalist telling the truth about his act--that is, there is nothing supernatural happening. It's one thing to tell the audience that you're not using paranormal methods; it's quite another to call them idiots if they believe in the paranormal. I think one could do the former without doing the latter. |
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