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Sven Rygh Inner circle Oslo, Norway. 1945 Posts |
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On 2005-10-18 07:47, Richard Osterlind wrote: :) I have been smiling all day! Sven
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"Keep it as simple as possible, - but no simpler" http://www.svenrygh.no/sven-rygh/presse/nrk-forst-og-sist/ http://www.svenrygh.no/video.html |
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Gede Nibo Inner circle 2447 Posts |
Well, since we love to learn from other's...
"...You cant argue ETHICALLY against stooges, because you're lying and deceiving from the start..." ~Derren Brown |
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Richard Osterlind V.I.P. 2213 Posts |
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On 2005-10-18 10:53, Gede Nibo wrote: Have a happy life, Gebe. All my best to you! |
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Magical Lady Loyal user 275 Posts |
I know Im fairly new to this, but may I add a thought or two please?
Think of the legal profession... A Barrister stands up in court - and using the tools of his trade - his experience, his knowledge of the legal system, his manner of persuasion, he sets out a message for the courtroom (his audience) to consider. He uses ALL his experience and his powers of persuasion to get the court to BELIEVE in him and therefore to believe his message. This to me is the mentalist. Consider furthermore however, teh same Barrister presenting his case - and in order to assist or secure his case, he pays someone to come into court, stand in the witness box, and LIE to the courtroom! That to me is the use of a stooge. Im not slating the use for those who want to go that way, but what I am saying is that using a stooge is NOT in my humble opinon, the same as using the 'tools' of your trade! "and STOOGES like FORCE DECKS are alike in that they are TOOLS, to be used wisely and carefully... " Stooges like force decks??? NO!!! IMHO? Completely different, sorry Gede! Nest ML x Sorry |
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Gede Nibo Inner circle 2447 Posts |
Osterlind,
Guess that's my cue to get outta here...Im gone, but was only trying to give my angle... Love your work, and have learned a lot from you... GEDE |
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
IMO, I don't like the use of stooges in magic, mentalism etc. I think it cheapens the mystery. Sometimes I get accused of using them and I adamantly deny that I have or ever have anyone in on the the act.
For those who use them, I guess it fits their act. Just not for me.
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mormonyoyoman Inner circle I dug 5,000 postholes, but I have only 2440 Posts |
And this, in my not-so-humble opinion, is the best definition of just what a stooge is, in mentalism. Thank you, Magical Lady.
*jeep! --Chet Quote: On 2005-10-18 17:07, Magical Lady wrote:
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
--Grandpa Chet |
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mormonyoyoman Inner circle I dug 5,000 postholes, but I have only 2440 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-10-18 10:53, Gede Nibo wrote: No, you didn't paraphrase Osterlind. You didn't even properly paraphrase Annemann. Here's what Annemann actually wrote, from Jinx #6: "If there were seven in the audience and the performer enlisted six to convincingly fool the seventh, I still think it the thing to do although that is a pretty drastic example and there would have to be a strong reason for fooling that seventh person." *jeep! --Chet
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
--Grandpa Chet |
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
[quote]On 2005-10-18 09:01, Jay Elf wrote:
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You rave about and so highly recommend stooge effects, but you don't use stooges. First of all I didn't 'rave' about them. I simply stated a fact of truth, which is that I know many friends who have used them for more than twenty years and had great results. And if we don't recognise the other person's point of view Jay we don't 'learn' anything. Me? The reason I don't use them is because I've simply never thought about it. Maybe I couldn't be ar**d! But if I was approached with an idea to set something up with a fellow magish I don't think I'd have a problem doing it. The point I was making is simply this: How do you say to a pro of 25yrs that he really shouldn't be using stooges as he might get caught? Do you really think for one minute he'll thank you for your advice and quite immediately? C'mon Guys... let the ones who do it well... do it . And as you know, I'm very very clever. Rick (James)O'shea knows it, and so should you. Bobser.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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Gede Nibo Inner circle 2447 Posts |
I was TALKING to Osterlind, and who cares, who cares...
*jeep |
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Alex Linian Inner circle Peru 1277 Posts |
Quote:
On 2005-10-18 07:47, Richard Osterlind wrote: is that a good thing?
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Mystician Inner circle Wallachia 3485 Posts |
This has got to be the most broken thread I've ever seen on the Café.
between the insults, analogies, the definitions, but mostly, the communication. In a nutshell: Most see a problem with using stooges from two perspectives: * Risk of exposure * Ethics To pull a random person out of a crowd and expect them to assist you and remain silent on the method throughout their lifetime is indeed expecting a bit too much. I think it's unlikely that it will bring down an entire effect on a global level, OTOH, just as TT exposure over the years has not prevented it's successful and continued use, but has even supplied, shall we say, motivation for better ways of using it. This is not to say I condone exposure, it's more of a "looking at the silver lining" point of view. Using a trusted friend, a fellow magician, or a significant other, however, greatly reduces this risk. How else to use a coding system, as outlined in 13 Steps for example ? Was Anneman wrong to use and print such methods ? The end result is the end result, regardless of the means. This brings us into the other issue: Ethics. If your audience is dazzled, why should it matter if your wife or magician friend had a hand ? May I remind some of you that it was good enough for Houdini, who frequently used Bess in his shows - and before her, his brother ? I don't see that Gede's analogy is all that bizarre - it was worded a bit strangely, granted, but he essentially meant that a tool is anything that helps you achieve the effect, be it human or inanimate, and the effect is always achieved through some form of deception. Why ? Because you can't really read minds, that's why ! No offense to Magical Lady, as you presented yourself as benevolently as possible, (and I'll try to maintain the sentiment )but I think it's your analogy that suffers from the flawed logic: In your equating a barrister to the mentalist, and a stooge to a false witness, you've overlooked the fact that a mentalist is in fact the primary purveyor of deception, the false witness merely an accomplice - in a correct analogy, then, the barrister should also be expected by the court to present false witness, lie, present tainted evidence, bribe, and anythng else as a matter of their profession, because in essence this is what the magician/mentalist does - deceive. (Unfortunately in real life this might not be so far off .. ! ) However, in "real" life, the barrister is supposed to tell the absolute truth; in your analogy he would then be saying, "And now ladies and gentlemen, I am going to peek at your billet by way of this wonderful little device I have here.." and the stooge would be shouting, "No ! Don't listen to him ! He's for real !" The Mentalist cannot be compared to the barrister, by their very (true) nature they are at odds with one another - but mostly, you can't compare how one appears to the audience (the mentalist) and then compare the way one truly is (the stooge) in the same analogy. It's inconsistent. As to the Annenman quote, is there some confusion perhaps over the meaning of "paraphrase" ? To paraphrase means to repeat the general idea of a quote, but not in the exact words - an exact quote would be "verbatim". Anneman's quote indicates that he would employ 6 out of the 7 audience members to fool the seventh, and even though he says it's drastic and would require a good reason, (I agree) he also says " I still think it is the thing to do ". This leads me to believe that he really has no problem justifying the use of 6 stooges just to fool one man; or 86% of the audience. The only thing really different between Gede's paraphrase and Anneman's direct quote seems to be the numbers: 99 out of 100 versus 6 out of 7. 99% vs 86%. Was Gede really so far off ? Lastly, I think perhaps there is yet one other element to dissuade some from employing a stooge - one that no one has mentioned yet - and this applies equally to magicians as it does to mentalists: I don't think it's so much ethics, frankly, as ego. As "the" performer, how many would want to "share" the credit or spotlight with someone else, even if their existance is not public knowledge ? How many dislike the feeling of dependence on another person to accomplish their amazing feats ? It's perfectly understandable, but let's not pretend it doesn't exist. Oh, one other thing - in all fairness, Gede, that "know it all mentalists" comment wasn't called for..
Just hanging out with the rest of my fellow dregs.
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Gede Nibo Inner circle 2447 Posts |
PERFECT...
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Pasq Elite user Lance Rench-Hausen. 417 Posts |
Making the decision to use a stooge is a lot like making the decision to smoke pot as an adolecent. You say you'd never do it, but you often spend the evening in a prison cell.
Personally, I employ a stooge off-stage in everyday life. He is utilised in all aspects - filling in tax returns, dating a woman. He is my double. I rarely have to make decisions for myself. The whole anguish of living is tranquillised. The steps up to my apartment always seem to steep, particularly with heavy shopping. The stooge negotiates them, and soon enough I find myself upstairs with minimum ease ... ___________________________________________________________________________________ I once witnessed a magician put a woman into a box. When the box was opened she had vanished. I couldn't help but wonder if her disappearance was entirely the work of chance. That it had happened, but the magician had truly played no role. He was merely the conductor. P.
Sparrow in a barrow.
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Pasq Elite user Lance Rench-Hausen. 417 Posts |
I've just got back from a similar "lady disappears in box" event this evening & can confirm, after close inspection, it was purely achieved through chance.
This reminds me of DB's just Think of the card, talk about it, & they'll get it.
Sparrow in a barrow.
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Gede Nibo Inner circle 2447 Posts |
Man, youre crazy , I like your thinking...
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icentertainment Inner circle 1429 Posts |
If using a stooge enhances the audience responce then we should do it.
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Snail Regular user UK 163 Posts |
Look - there is so much material out there! While we're sitting here talking about whether or not to use a stooge, we could be learning 10 stoogles items!
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RickDangerous Special user I can't believe I made 974 Posts |
Allright, classical topic, my two cents:
First, no, I don't like stooges. People will talk and that's something you can't avoid. (messes up my reputation) Second, if it's a friend of mine who's also a magician then I think it's no problem to stooge him. He's a friend and won't talk and help you with your act (at least it should be like that). If I have to stooge one of the audience members then I never do it preshow, I only use instant stooges. BUT I use them in a way that even if the would talk to anyone else neither them or the other person could backtrack the effect I presented. Now that's my personal approach and the only way I allow myself to think about when it comes to creating methods. Cheers Rick
"Reality is what you can get away with."
Robert A. Wilson "Think for yourself and question authority." Timothy Leary |
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