Spending a bit of time trying to get in and out of Downs palm quickly (just with a single coin for now). I find the angles hard. In a mirror obviously I can make sure there's no flashing but with a spectator it seems more difficult, and I have no confidence the coin is not visible. It's not just a question of making the coin parallel to the floor, it seems to me. Any tips?

Look in bobo for just pretend.

Keeping the coin parallel with the floor and ceiling is key in performing that particular slieght. It has been in my experiences, if performing for spectators at different heights(taller vs. shorter or standing vs. seated spectators), take a step or two back, to reduce the chances of flashing.

You're right, it's not just a question of making the coin parallel to the floor.

How high you hold your hand, how close you are to them and the angle is important.

Keep in mind what it is that conceals the coin and people's line of vision.
When going one on one the coin edge should be aimed at the persons eyes.
Sort of like this - oo but the hand made be tipped to you and the coin's edge may be angled at the eyes that way too.
If too low _ oo
it may be seen.

When doing it for a group, step back a bit and aim at the mid-sized persons eyes.
Stepping back a little is a good idea in both cases.

Last week I did a routine using Edge Grip, which is similar to Down's Palm, and made a bad judgement.
The trick was at chest level and there was a small four year old standing too close to me. She got a flash of the coins from down there and said something about it. I was a bit taken but I just took a step back and moved ahead. the others enjoyed it and had no idea where the coins were. A lesson learned.

When included in a routine the Down's is a very good concealment. Learning the Edge Grip should be your next step.

Hope this helps.

Kainoa Harbottle has some good work on this subject. If you are willing to shift your grip slightly (1/2 inch or so) you can get some wonderful results.

Some of us moved from DP to EG a while ago. In my case, it was mostly to get the finger motion of the basic transfers minimized and then to enjoy the benefits of EG. David Roth still tells the story of my joke told once at Tannen's LONG ago.

The ideas mentioned above are good. You might want to hold an object in the hand which can help in concealing the coins. Fred Kaps used a glass with colored rings to conceal 4 coins in his Coins and Glass Routine. Otherwise, keeps the coins parallel to the line of vision of your audience.

Keep it eye leveled with the person or persons you are doing it to and keep it parallel to the floor. Also if your trying to show both sides of your hand move your body not just your arms. Hope that helps

Thanks for all this. Edge Grip (the Roth rather than Harbottle version) I am reasonably confident with, because there is always the option of lowering the first finger to screen off the top view when you lower the hand - and because you are usually holding something that gives extra misdirection. Downs seems much more exposed, somehow. I find myself pointing the heel of the thumb towards the spectator, which is safer but unnatural.

I went back to Downs after seeing a wonderful Miser's Dream on the Coinvention DVD (I forget who by) and wanted to be able to do a vanish and production, which seems to be harder from Edge Grip.

There's only so far you can get with a mirror. I think I need an accomplice to practice with.

Or Video it..
I do that and it's great when you do not have anyone to practice with..
Don

Yes but much better to have someone to say "i can see it now ... now I can't"

Hi Rjenkins,

I strongly believe that Downs palm has more cover and it is less exposed then the edge grip the way Dave and kainoa do it.

You probably are not doing it well; I use downs palm in very close up and I don't have any problems with angles at all.

Mano.

I have seen Mono perform his verson of the Downs palm it is invisible.Mono's handling as well as the edge grip he does is one of the best I have ever see to date
vinny

I think there are basically 2 versions of the DP: the upper version and the lower version. Bobo I seem to remember only refers to the upper version (thumb and index finger); whereas I think the lower version (thumb and middle finger) is better for me. I find it better for getting into and out of. Again if memory serves me correctly Curtis Kam refers to this in his recent articles on this forum. (Check them out if you haven't already - they provide some great insights!).

I am just starting to learn DP. In Jeff McBride's Manipulations volume 1, he uses the lower DP for a vanish. It seems to me he performs the DP just as he places the hand with the coin into the opposite hand, using the opposite hand's fingers for cover. So there is not a consideration of keeping the hand parallel to the spectator's vision. Jeff McBride's use of DP for vanishing and re-producing coins looks beautiful on this video. So, am I interpreting Jeff McBride's use of DP correctly, or is he doing something else with the angle of the DP? Jeff doesn't talk about the issue of keeping the hand parallel, and he clearly moves the hand rapidly upwards before re-producing the coin.
kerpa
a/k/a Michael Miller
Chicago area

Actually, I've been studying the tape and Jeff does indeed mention keeping the hand at spectators' eye level but that is with multiple coins in DP. I still am not sure about at what point and with what hand position this parallel orientation occurs.
kerpa

I am just starting to work on Down's Palm. Other methods have been suiting my needs, but it is called for in a specific routine I'm looking at. When you say keep your hands at the spectator's eye level, doesn't that look unnatural to have your hands that high up? Your arms would have to be raised way up for that. Or am I misinterpreting what you mean by that? The distance issue makes sense to me. I have been trying to judge the angle FROM their eye level TO my hand and ensure that it is not high enough to see what shouldn't be seen. As you back away, the angle from their eyes looking down toward your hands decreases. For me, chest height or just below that seems the most natural position to be in. Should I be raising my arms more for this sleight? Thanks.

Bob,
With coins in Downs Palm, rotate your wrist to keep the coins parallel to the line of vision of your audience. If their eyes are above your coins rotate (pronate) your right hand inward slightly until the surface of the coins are parallel to their line of vision. Do the opposite rotation if their eyes are below you. In every case your hands need not change height to achieve this.

It's a "line of sight" thing, not an "eye level" thing.

The lower your hand is held, the more the coins surface should be tipped towards you.
When very close and you start off high and then begin lowering the hand for any reason, you should tip the the coins surface away from their eyes in order to keep it out of the line of vision. Also, keep it close to your body if you feel you need to.

If people are seated, chest height is just about right.

Keeping some distance is a big plus, especially when there is a mix of short and tall people.


LARRY! Your fast at typing just beat me to the punch.

Thanks, Larry and Jaz, your comments are very helpful! Are either of you (or anyone else reading this) acquainted with the vanish and production on Jeff McBride's Manipulation video? He uses DP for a false put, and actually keeps the back of the hand to the audience - it dawns on me this may be meant only for stage work. I think Jeff is using DP strictly for how it fits the large motions of his hands and arms when on stage, rather than for its use in close up, to hide a coin in a palm facing the spectator. Am I right about this? (I'm a newbie!
And, do you think Jeff McBride's techniques for this can be used in close up? (I've tried it for family, and sometimes they tell me, my angles are good, sometimes not, but I'm just starting.)
kerpa
a/k/a Michael Miller

Larry and Jaz,
Thanks for the clarification. That's exactly how I have been approaching it (i.e. "line of sight" vs. eye level). The way some used the term eye-level had me confused but this clears it up. Glad to know that I haven't been totally off-base in how I was executing this sleight.