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Ben Whiting Loyal user Traverse City, MI 246 Posts |
Just out of curiosity what do you guys believe the next step in the presenation of grand illusion will be? I mean, I realize that the illusions themselves are going to get greater and more astonishing as time goes on but is there some new way to present our illusions that doesn't parallel with the greats (Houdini, Copperfield, etc...)?
I'm not saying all magician's presentations parallel with the greats but I feel a lot of us do and was just wondering if you guys think it will always be like that or if there is another way. |
Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
I'm afraid that Cirque Du Soleil has put the handwriting on the wall. The next generation will be more athletic than they are now. It will combine another art with magic.
Odd that nearly forty years ago I was combining being a rodeo clown with magic. Then magic with live theater as character parts. My wife Lucy, although we did not even know each other, was doing the same in ballet. Now that we are white-haired and too old for the physical conditioning that requires, it is coming of age. (Lucy does have me beat. She last performed ballet on her toes on stage before a paying audience at age 64! She is doing ballet exercises in our rehearsal room as I write this.) What do you think? Bob Sanders Magic By Sander |
Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
BenRoss,
You have another factor you have not considered. When an illusion is invented and built, it is built for one routine and action. It can be a penetration, vanish, appearance, transportation. To change the trick, means to change the illusion. If I understand your question, that is the way I see it! |
Regan Inner circle U.S.A. 5726 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-26 20:59, Bob Sanders wrote: Bob, If you could perform ballet on your toes you would have a paying audience too. I would try my best to buy a ticket if you came anywhere near me, and I'm sure many others would. That would be quite a show! :) Go Lucy!!! (You better get Bob in the rehearsal room with you before showtime) Regan
Mister Mystery
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Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
Regan,
She did give me hope. She wants me to get a new refrigerator for our rehearsal room. That does make it more attractive to me! This is an election year so I do my election year routine that takes quite a bit of dance. As I get older it looks more like a duck climbing a tree! I have lost 10 pounds for it! Stage magic is taking more and more stamina. Bob Sanders Magic By Sander |
Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Bob,
You do present a concept worthy of serious thought. Although I haven't watched the Cirque Du Soleil much, I can relate to your thinking. There are jugglers, then there are Cirque Du Soleil jugglers. In my earlier life (Late Sixties), I was taught to understand Ballet. It's one thing to sing, or play music, but its a commitment to train the muscles to move synchronously to the music. (I did see a nice smooth transition of "coloring changing handkerchief in a ballet routine, that did come off nice.) I looked at that juggler and saw the ballet training and the unbelievable skill of juggling blended. On the other hand, I was not impressed watching a version of the stage play, Phantom of the Opera, with stock magic effects interwined. It didn't mess smoothly. It was like a drama train stopping, here's a trick, then the drama train moving along again. It may be revealing in dance skins with doves or card packs! Bizare Magic seems to have a following. Comedy Magic, when done right will always survive. Children Entertainers are forever. (As long as there are children, there will be Magic) Illusionist are evolving, and theme based illusion shows may be a good direction. (Example: Halloween show by John Bundy "Wacky Dracky" is worthy of seeing.)
Dennis Michael
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jcsum Loyal user Singapore 217 Posts |
Hi Ben,
To make a guess what the next step is would be near impossible. You will have to pinpoint what the next big thing will be in pop culture. As any one in this cutthroat business knows, it is a gamble. When music, movie and entertainment companies invest millions in a project/ person, it is gamble that works out, only some of the time. The ‘luck factor’ plays a significant role to what becomes the next thing. For purposes of this discussion, let us suspend our belief and exclude luck as a factor. For the grand illusionist, while no one could possibly have an answer on what the next thing is (well, maybe the mentalists on the other board could tell you , here are some disparate thoughts that I have: Illusions The basic techniques and methodologies of illusions, are less likely to be huge factors. But the presentation and application of the illusions will be. There will be new innovations and discoveries but that has always been the case. One constant that I think (hope) that will come back with the next thing in illusion is motivation and good story-telling in illusion performance. (I don’t consider ‘cheesy’ plots where the magician is ‘captured’ by bad guys and put into a box etc necessarily good story-telling unless it is performed WELL in the right context and the right theatrical environment.) Good close-up workers (not necessarily the new-age ‘Street Magicians’) strive for credibility and motivation for all the actions. There is story-telling, from subtle to elaborate, in practically every effect. All illusionists should read Darwin Ortiz’s ‘Strong Magic’ and apply it to their illusion performance craft. Of course, I recognize the need for ‘no-brainer’ visual bubble gum in the context of a larger show. But, I do not think 50 illusions performed in succession make for a good presentation of illusion. Target Market This is the single most important factor in making a particular style/ presentation the next thing in magic. If you are working only out of a small market segment, no matter how original and commercial the style is, it is unlikely it will catch on. The ‘next thing’ means it has to be seen by many and then perceived to be good and the rage. Like it or not, mass media markets (Television, Internet, Movies, Radio?) are generally what make the style of today. If you are going for any mass media market, being right up there with the latest in pop culture and trends is a must. Predicting what the next trend will be a lot trickier. Movie and music genres/ styles can give an indication of what might work. Examining financial successes over the past twenty years might allow for some educated guesses. Entertainment trends, like fashion and business, are cyclical. However, it is also highly possible to establish oneself in other mainstream markets first, then crossover to mass media markets. This is generally the route many have taken as well. What is your target market for your type of illusion show? Cruises, Showrooms, Music Concerts, Resorts, Special Events? What are the hottest shows (out of magic) in your respective market? Can magic emulate those formulas or use magic to elevate that formula? Take advantage of the medium to create something different. In recent years, that is what has happened with magic on TV. The medium has been used to great advantage (or deception) to create an apparent new type of magic. Many successful magicians all over the world have become the best because they created the ‘next thing’ within their respective market segments. Differentiation This will help narrow what the next thing will be; as it is a certainty that the next thing will not be a ‘me-too’ act. The ‘me-too’ syndrome is just as prevalent in magic, as it is in other entertainment forms. The true fact is; there are so many illusion clones out there. I personally do not understand the phenomena but I accept that it happens. Ethics aside, I find it difficult to see how one can except to get wide success by being a dime out of a dozen. It think there is a market for one clone of another act but multiple clones? Again, please understand that I’m speaking from the point of view of working outside a small market - as this is relevant to the quest of creating the next thing in grand illusion. If you are working for laymen within a fixed population threshold, yes, it makes no difference if you look the same and perform the same stuff as another person outside this market. However, if you are looking to make an impact at a national or international level, you will be judged by experts in the entertainment field; world-class talent brokers and show producers. Trust me when I say that good agents/ producers have literally seen it all… or at least, anything worth seeing. Just to illustrate this, here are some specific illusions/ presentations that make informed individuals thing we ‘magicians/ illusionists’ are just the same. Packing Crate-style Sub Trunk – 9/10 illusionists feature this. Origami and Interlude are close seconds and thirds as well. I’m not knocking the illusion, it is a brilliant illusion but everyone does it and not all well, unfortunately. I think it is fine to do it in your show amongst other illusions but don’t put it in your promotional material. (Again, I stress, I’m not knocking the illusion. I’m just stating this in the context of the discussion). I don’t perform the Sub Trunk for this reason - because everyone is doing it and it will be too embarrassing for someone to point this out. How do you answer this question: “Why do all you magicians perform the same ‘tricks’?” I guess a possible answer is: “Just like musicians, we perform various classics with our own interpretation. While they look the same, they do feature our own unique styles and presentations.” The problem is, not many see magic as a mainstream art as we do, thus would not take that answer as a credible one. Another ‘problem’ is inherent with the magic art. Secrecy is a what separates magic from any other art form. The thing is, most laymen also think that the secrecy is kept among magicians as well, especially in the area of grand illusion. They do not naturally assume we know each other’s secret methods. Thus, it is surprising to them that we can perform the same illusions. But, I digress. Kevin James Snowing Presentation, specifically, the tearing of the napkin into a ‘snowflake’ and saying real snow is made of water. Again, it is a beautiful, logical and motivated piece but has lost its novelty. For the record, I’ve personally seen the exact presentation performed on videos and live performances by magicians/ illusionists in the UK (3 performers), US (10 performers), Singapore (3 performers), Hong Kong, Australia and several from Europe. I’m sure there are many more out there. The ‘Copperfield’ Look – The tucked out shift over T-shirt can be seen on many performers trying to look the same. Sigh… The Sentimental Grandfather Story – Everyone has a grandfather who inspired them with the first magic effect they learnt etc. Some can pull it off, most cannot. Not because they are incompetent but it is just not their style. They are doing it because others are doing it. Are the above examples only apparent because we are learned students of the illusion craft and are aware of all that goes on in magic. Not really, because these examples (except for the last one) were highlighted to me by an international show producer. To understand the business/ commercial upsides of being different, Jack Trout’s ‘Differentiate or Die’ is a very easy must-read. Longevity This does not really answer the question but it is something to consider. While working towards being the ‘next thing’, which can be a hit & miss thing as mentioned above, it is wise to consider longevity in the business. Translating a short-term fad into a sustained success can be a challenge given today’s ever-changing world. It is possible to do very well with a ‘safe’ style that has a long shelf –life with sustained appeal but is unlikely to be the next BIG thing. But, that is not the topic of discussion anyway. I guess the key for all is to present good magic, preserve, work hard and constantly innovate. Remember, what is often an overnight success or tomorrow’s trend has actually been in development for the past decade. Best, J C
J C Sum
Project ONE: The Solo Illusionist http://www.SoloIllusions.com The World's Largest Free Online Illusion Resource http://www.IllusionBooks.com The World's Most Comprehensive Resource on Kabuki Drops http://www.MagicKabukiDrop.com Creating Highly Successful Entertainers http://www.BackstageBusinessAcademy.com |
collective foundry Inner circle 1404 Posts |
Overall I used to try to keep to myself on design methodology, being selfish in this industry is not hard to do. We all work very hard to be original as next step designers, and spend countless hours on end in research and design, mockups, computer models, and fabrication, testing and so-on. Our reluctance is understandable when sharing thoughts on what we consider the next step would be as we want to be the first person to be considered the guy whom is all over the next step. The first to do (insert effect here) and offer it to (insert big name performer here) and build with (insert big name builder here) and offer it first in (insert major magic website or publication here)
Its really a hard industry to get into. Its hard to learn all of what’s out there and what can be done without spending a lot of time looking in library's for the basic stuff, and spending a small fortune on the materials that are out there on design & fabrication techniques. Once one gets past the adolescence stage when starting a design or fabrication company, that person realizes that unity, and togetherness, friendly competition is the only way to go. Sharing concepts, ideas and method at times is an important thing to do. Although secrecy is a good thing during development. The only way to truly advance is to learn from others, as they learn from you, while moving forward with new things. There are many things that Illusion Entertainment International are pushing for to set the bar for the next step. I believe we're at a critical point in time in our industry where things are changing and evolving to something on a higher plane. As our audiences get more sophisticated with their cell phones and computers and electronic devices, and their solar powered homes, and their computer driven phones and lights and refrigerators built with LCD panels which will tell you your milk is empty and through an Ethernet connection orders another to be delivered at your doorstep. We as designers and performers have a few responsibilities to meet those challenges. Our audiences are looking for a unique release from our world of war, hate, fear, & every day life. What we do is entertain. We take those individuals away from their lives for a few hours. Give them hope. Make them think about things on a deeper level. (depending on the effect or show) I think the next step is with different materials than what we've seen in the past used for fabrication. Effects that touch people through deeper messages, and meanings. Not just another lets saw this really hot lady in half. But the reasons behind it, a more purpose driven show. On many levels I agree with most on boxy type of illusions. I think the age of "bullet proof" magic is upon us. Bullet proof magic is something I slang, when I refer to those effects that can be done surrounded, or in a field or without special lighting or setup. An effect or concept / prop that when on that drive home after the show the questions are risen the prop and the effect give those answers of impossibility. "but the prop was fully lit, the table had not box on it. And its only 1 inch thick. Lights were passing under and around the prop, so there could be no mirrors....and so-on........." A bullet proof effect. I know my actual representation of the prop(s) that will make this next step is vague. But the methodology behind it should be clear. Count on one thing. Myself and a handful of very dedicated individuals: Mark Parker, JC Sum, Michelangelo, Mike Rogers, Wolf's Magic, Chris Stoltz, Nick Fox, Jack Murray, Procraft Illusions - and any friends or associates I left out: Are all working hard to offer the next best thing in magic, though our own styles and takes on what the next coolest thing is, there is a ton of material out there left untouched, and ready to be delivered. I think these are exciting times for magic. Will be interesting to see how it all ends up in 20 years (hopefully some government wont market levitation devices for personal or industrial use. , or some device to teleport one's self. We'd be in trouble ) Thanks for reading.. |
Bill Nuvo Inner circle 3094 Posts or 2742 Posts |
I mentioned this before, and I'll say it again. I have two stage shows. One is more formulaic and standard, and the other is more artistic (cirque du soliel-ish). I love my artistic show very much, and am very proud of it. Unfortunately it doesn't sell as well as the other one.
Now having said that, I have put together a new "standard" show that is setting me apart from similar non-artistic shows. It is not just a magic show, but a one man variety show. It has magic, juggling, DJing, live music, and dance. This I have found actually opens up a new market. I am able to perform in Music Festivals. All my live music is original (Jazz/Funk). And DJing (turntablism) is now commonly viewed as an artform in itself. And to be able to interlace these with magic and juggling allows me to be more unique in the music festival and regular festvial/fair market. |
Ben Whiting Loyal user Traverse City, MI 246 Posts |
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Shrubsole Inner circle Kent, England 2455 Posts |
Personally, I find all this "new" flash fast stuff more than a little boring and I think that going back to basics is the way to go and will and will always work.
I hear that Copperfield is making the BIG mistake (My opinion) of doing less and less story telling and more boring stuff. Personally I don't think that story telling magic well ever go out of fashion as with Copperfield, the "trick" isn't new, just the story. So you can reinvent any old principle with a new story. It is this story that is missing from so many of "the new performers" acts - It's all flash this and pose. Remember: YOU ARE THERE TO ENTERTAIN PEOPLE! - Not prove how wonderful you think yourself to be! (That just bores people to death) Story telling has been around for 1000s of years and is entertaining - I can't see that ever changing. I am personally getting sick and bored with clever fast slick illusions that are done for no given reason. Man: Box: WOW: but WHY? Where has the emotional content gone? - I blame movies that are all special effect and no storyline. - It's dumbed down magic for a non-thinking emotionally void generation. - I suggest re-educating them! So, if Mr Copperfield wishes to abandon that way, that's fine, more room for those of us who believe in entertaining our audiences and giving them what they have paid for; Magic (Not just a clever illusion) Chris
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
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Scott Alexander V.I.P. 1471 Posts |
I tend to agree with the above. People do want to experience emotion. Magic, however, runs the very high risk of becoming a "cheese fest" when this blend occurs. (How many sucky snowstorms have you seen?)
We see this "moving away from story" even in modern film. The new King Kong would have been great if we had more beauty/beast pathos, rather than yards and yards of flim featuring giant bugs, maggots and dinosaurs. I would love to see DC revisit his vignettes. He and his team always had a knack for telling wonderful short stories with magic. S |
Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
Hello Den, I feel like I haven't seen you in a month of Sundays. Good to hear from you.
Scott, I think we agree. We are actors who do magic to tell a story. We don't come off very well when become tricksters delivering an alibi for showing a trick. What the audience remembers most is what we made them feel. Life is experienced. Bob Sanders Magic By Sander |
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