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Hypnotic Winter Special user Ireland 720 Posts |
Ya know, I actually agree with Bartlewizard on the peeks thread, he mentions about having different opinions from the group mind or something like that there are a lot of opinions that others make that are just not for me, I found some nice ideas in Mr Busch’s book but they are not at all one's that are ever mentioned. The idea's I was not fond of are the one's people usually rave about.
I would have to say the same for the Theatre of the Mind books, every one raves about them, they are lovely books, and the material would suit a lot of people but I do not use a single thing so far from either of them. I also love Corinda and Annemann yet while they are always mentioned as the foundation books I'm nearly sure no one read them as I have fooled many people with material from those very books, yet these people are meant to have read them. I'd like this thread to be about alternative opinions but please keep them objective and honest; I want it to be about material, not the creators A good example is often the opinions between the PCT and the ZEN billet after lots of use the PCT in my opinion is the best for me, here I have not promoted or slated the creators just stated a practical opinion. I would like others to do the same. H.W
When your only reality is an illusion, then illusion is reality.
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David Numen Inner circle 2076 Posts |
Thanks for the name check.
I've actually become a bit of a billet freak over the last few years and consider myself fairly well-read on the subject. Most of the pro´s seem to favour the PCT and Acidus Novus - both are great IMHO. Personal favorites, in no particular order, are: Mag Eye Move - whilst there is the problem of a limited writing space it´s SUCH an easy tear. Ja Ja Tear - I tried Bernstein´s tear recently and just felt it too clumsy for me. It is the type of thing I would screw up all too easily. I like the PCT but prefer an extra fold (even though I know it doesn´t really matter). Ja Ja seems a happy medium - easier to do than Bernstein whilst giving the option of having a fairly wide writing/drawing area. Acidus Novus - the best, simplest, most natural peek handling for me. Whilst some could say that "Busch´s Billet" is an advancement, my personal feeling is that it´s a step backward. The new AN work by Millard covers all aspects of how to handle the billet naturally. Going from an "Annemann" pose into a one handed pose, no matter how clean, just isn´t a natural handling for me. I know many favour the peek but I honestly can´t think of anyone who would hold a billet in that particular manner. As for other stuff, dual reality is leaving me colder and colder. Having read Stuart Cumberland´s wonderfully enthusiastic book on Annemann´s Complete One Man Psychic Routine I am convinced that is the way to go. I sometimes wonder if the more extreme dual reality works out there actually involve the dual reality of the performer thinking they´ve got away with it when in fact they haven´t. To me, nothing beats a well-presented direct billet test as in the Annemann Act. Edited to add... Another thought is that there are so many "screaming girlies" on this forum who just rave about any and all of certain people´s latest releases that it makes most forum reviews worthless. I am not disparaging Osterlind when I say this as he has released some terrific stuff but for example if he released "Ultimate Turd in Box" I am quite sure that at least a dozen members of the Café would review it as the greatest piece of Mentalism ever. I am not saying we should all be attacking each and every creator who releases stuff but a little more across the board honesty wouldnt go amiss. |
Richard Osterlind V.I.P. 2213 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-26 11:51, bartlewizard wrote: Battlewizard, I appreciate your thoughts and totally understand where you are coming from. To clarify matters, since my name was mentioned, the material I have put out over the last few years is not new material at all. These are routines I have been using and refining over a period many, many years. The PCT, for instance, is a third generation idea that has gone through many changes made through actual performances in all kinds of circumstances and situations for a period of over 20 years. Even when I have taken an older idea that I might not have used in awhile, I still put it back into my show for at least 6 months before releasing it. The Very Modern Mindreader is a perfect example. I used to to it all the time back in the 80's and then went to my Thoughtscan exclusively. Before I wrote the book I put it back into my show for almost a year just to make sure I had it right. I also think a person's "reputation" is worth something. As in any business, one works hard to get such a reputation. It tells others of quality and assures them they probably won't be getting a piece of junk. The same applies to our trade. To not recognize past accomplishments and weigh that into the equation is simply not giving a person their due. Finally, it sure would be refresing if the "reviewers" of products could first give their own credentials (if unknown) to show why their opinions should carry any weight. Again, in the real world of marketing and products, we expect someone who publishes a review to have some credibility so as to show they know what they are talking about. If they don't, they are usually quickly put in their place by those who have worked hard to achieve that credibility. And, by the way, I do not do "bathroom" mentalism. Richard |
Tom Jorgenson Inner circle LOOSE ANGLES, CALIFORNIA 4451 Posts |
...Hmmm...so much for this thread not being about Creators.
Think Pink for me....for some reason, other than Slo-Mo Surrounded, its the only one I've had an affinity for...it's one that is smooth, and can be done openly and slowly. Most seem to need speed for the read, etc....and most cant be shown clean every step of the way. I also like the idea of it working CU with biz cards OR stage with 4x6 index cards. Again, clean all the way. Bartle-there's probably some that loved Braco's Ball...and they'd probably be very honest in recommending it...but since Mentalism is so tightly tiered by experience, age, knowledge and ability, one can be very honest and still be very wrong in someone else's view. O is polular because his work is very accessible...oops, there goes that 'Creator' thing again... While I can sail through Think Pink anytime anywhere, I still can't get anything I personally can use from Peek Performances. Although, come to think about it, it did take me months before I felt proficient in TP...but I suppose that would be true of any peek technique.
We dance an invisible dance to music they cannot hear.
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David Numen Inner circle 2076 Posts |
Richard,
I am fully aware of your pedigree and that your releases are all well-established material. I mentioned your name as you have been one of the most prolific creators over the last 12 months what with numerous DVD´s, e-books and releases under your belt. I didn´t mean any insult by what I said and I am sure you are intelligent enough and good-humoured enough to see that there´s a tiny grain of truth in my suggestion. In a formal review I can understand fully why you would want someone with "credentials". However, this is a public forum and regardless of background and experience we are all encouraged to express our opinion, albeit politely. Anyone and everyone is entitled to dismiss or ignore anything I or anyone else without "credentials" says on these forums but it´s interesting that there doesn´t seem to be the SAME call for "credentials" from the "screaming girlies" who rave about each and every release from any given author. I´ve seen quite a few people attacked on this forum for daring to go against the flow, for daring to suggest a beloved author´s latest release isn´t the best thing since sliced bread yet day in and day out we get countless "wonderful" comments from the sheeple. All Iñm after is a little balance and a little more honesty. |
Richard Osterlind V.I.P. 2213 Posts |
Battlewizard,
I certainly took no insult and if my post implied that I did, then I'm sorry. I suppose what I should have said is that a review, or criticism of a product, should state the reasons the person did or did not like it and carry some substance. Then those facts could be discussed in an intelligent way. Certainly certain methologies appeal to some people more than others. You like billet effects as I do. I think there is a wealth of usuable material from the past by such masters as Annemann, Boarde and others. When I see someone put down the one ahead principle or a center tear or billets in general, I really would like to have some dialogue about it and not just have someone brush it off as worthless. Likewise, I'm sure you will agree that there are some posters who can't wait to say something bad about a particular author just to cause trouble. I have seen postings on other forums bragging about how they disrupted a topic on the Café. I think civility is the key. I know I am willing to tolerate anything if it is said in a nice way. So again, sorry if I seemed I was taking offense. I wasn't. Richard |
David Numen Inner circle 2076 Posts |
Yes, I think civility is crucial but we do have a problem on the Café.
We have some who will love everything they buy and praise it uncritically. We have some who diss things just for the sake of dissing them. One poster comes to mind who adds to every single post about Docc Hilford about his products being a waste of space for example. Both those are as bad in their way as the other (although the real dissers tend to be impolite and at least easy to spot). It is rare to actually have a reasoned, thoughtful debate on a subject here which doesn´t eventually descend into some kind of name-calling. There are many who take criticism of a favourite creator as some kind of personal attack and fail to enter a debate objectively. In that sense I can understand why some rip this place when posting on other forums. |
Richard Osterlind V.I.P. 2213 Posts |
Battlewizard,
I agree with you about name calling. The problem comes in where you want to draw the line. Take one paragraph - in complete - from your other post. "Another thought is that there are so many "screaming girlies" on this forum who just rave about any and all of certain people´s latest releases that it makes most forum reviews worthless. I am not disparaging Osterlind when I say this as he has released some terrific stuff but for example if he released "Ultimate Turd in Box" I am quite sure that at least a dozen members of the Café would review it as the greatest piece of Mentalism ever." Since my name is the only creator named in that paragraph, am I supposed to assume that fans of my work are "screaming girlies"? I didn't assume that, but from your words, I might have. I really don't understand if a product is very well received and a whole lot of people want to talk it up, why does that make a discussion worthless? Is negativity the only thing of value? But again, I'm sure glad you weren't talking about me or my supporters. Peace, Richard |
David Numen Inner circle 2076 Posts |
Quote:
I really don't understand if a product is very well received and a whole lot of people want to talk it up, why does that make a discussion worthless? Is negativity the only thing of value? I did not suggest negativity is the only thing of value, just that so many overly positive reviews can be taken with a pinch of salt. You yourself referred to "credentials" being important - 90% of the people who post reviews on this very forum lack the "credentials" you seek. That´s why I was saying their positive reviews can be dismissed as easily as you suggest negative ones should be. |
TheNightBringer89 Special user 766 Posts |
To get this back on topic, I agree with a lot of what hypnotic winter has said. I hardley ever use billets and 70% of my effects are by Anneman or Corinda, I use a few of Banachek's effects or my own creations. I also don't like many popular books people praise but will not mention specific ones.
"Dreams are born of imagination, fed upon illusions, and put to death by reality."
It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, If you're not like the others then you don't belong. |
Richard Osterlind V.I.P. 2213 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-26 14:26, bartlewizard wrote: Battlewizard, I did not define the "credentials I seek." A basic knowledge of magic, some knowledge of the classics and what has gone before, perhaps a little performing experience are the credentials I am talking about. I would suspect 90% of the people on this board do have such credentials. Again, just in the scheme of things in general, when I hear a lot of praise for something, whether it be a movie, a new book, whatever, I tend to suspect it might be rather good! Richard Richard |
howdoidisconnect Elite user Just outside the cafe window 429 Posts |
And now chips in a screaming girlie,
God I hope not. but I will admit I have no credentials to validate a review, but that also (due to my newness to mentalism) allows me to view a product from what the lay people will actually still see, I will admit I haven’t bought some stuff say on Docc Hilford cause of some negative remarks, and after recent reading some of his stuff, I understand the reason behind that statement, although I have not said that (ahh just did). I think the reviews on here are very helpful, even from the 'anything they publish is good brigade' the fact of the matter is the only ones that have such brigades on this forum are Richard Osterlind, Banachek and the like, and let be straight here they don’t release anything that isn't excellent. And some thing I have learned from the way effects etc and DVD's are marketed by the magic world it to note what isn’t being said, i.e. read between the lines. I think when reviews are made by high ranking performers, yes they are helpful , but I for on am always aware that their remarks will be tapered as 9 times out of 10 they are friends. I also think that most average intelligent people can distinguish between what is a worthwhile review or not, reviews like' this is cr*p do not buy it' are hardly going to carry any weight. But a negative review say why they found it negative from anyone is helpful. With bartlewizards final request for a little more balance, unfortunately the internet will see that never happens, everyone gets a voice and you will always have the extremists who rave about anything, and yes I can't stand that either. And personally I would never buy anything without knowing what it is about, and that would be from anyone, I do not care how well respected they are, so I tend to just ignore those posts. Well I didn't want to interrupt the banter between you. But I thought my credentialless (not a real word) comment might be worth something..lol regards steve
I do look forward to the day when you post something constructive.
-Tony Iacoviello |
J ack Galloway Inner circle 1309 Posts |
You know I have to agree with Richard but with a reservation.
Many respond to the actual work and not to how well it works or plays in the real world. In my mind that is a great problem. I think we can all agree that to hear that several people like a new offering is considerably different than hearing from a few that say yes I have used this made money with it and am pleased with it as were those who paid me to present it. When I have seen those who put forth such opinions here I always give them more weight. Jack H.12/O.17 A-X Jack |
chichi711 Inner circle 5810 Posts |
I agree with jack.
Battlewizard, I think you can have good debate about different effects. The problem with these discussions turning into name callling is not just a problem on the Café. Nobody anywhere likes to be backed into a corner. Nobody likes to think a purchase they made was a bad one. When attacked they will defend. Its human nature. If you go into the review threads here on the Café you can pull a lot of good information out of them. you might have to wade around in a little crap to get to it, but it is there. |
Hypnotic Winter Special user Ireland 720 Posts |
On a side note, I Purchased Richards PCT manuscript a while back, in it he shows you his original handlings and methods before the current methods he uses.
It is a fantastic manuscript and shows the progression of the PCT, his original Ultimate centre tear may actually suit allot of people now as it is in its original format in the PCT manuscript. Allot of information in the book is not in the DVD's as it goes back to his pervious incarnations of the PCT as well as the current usage. Because I performed as a cold reader and hypnotist long before actually learning magic properly I often feel I have a different view, as I never really learned to think as a magician, I resolved to not take on any of the fancy card flicks and shuffles and billet handling. I think that is where allot of mentalism falls down, normal people do not flick cards or make tearing look fancy and spread cards in neat ribbons. Personally I think Kreskin got it perfect, it is better to appear clumsy or ordinary. I have to say that Richard Osterlind has suppressing fancy moves down to a fine art. A lot of times when ever I view new material on DVD or on books and I see something overly complicated (Marc Spellman’s way of identifying each spectators clip board for example) I think, Why would I be bothered? I'd prefer to just use the time horned ways of Annemann and Corinda of marking. H.W
When your only reality is an illusion, then illusion is reality.
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David Numen Inner circle 2076 Posts |
"The problem with these discussions turning into name callling is not just a problem on the Café. Nobody anywhere likes to be backed into a corner. Nobody likes to think a purchase they made was a bad one. When attacked they will defend. Its human nature."
But I´m not suggesting anyone be attacked! Just an open sensible debate about things. Besides, it´s the critics who usually get attacked I dared to say I didn´t like something that is fairly popular. I stated explicitly why I didn´t like it and why I use other methods. I came under fire from lots of people who suggested I just "didn´t understand" despite the fact that I went into a fair amount of thought and detail as to why I didn´t like it. And it´s not an uncommon thing here. People seem to get very attached to authors and creators and take a person´s disagreement as personal. In the instance I am talking about I insisted I had no problem with those who liked the method but that I didn´t and had good reasons for that opinion yet I was the one who got accused of saying I can´t stand the fact that people prefer the other method! In fact if most people are doing something different from me, I am happy! Nothing worse than cookie-cutter Mentalists! Going back to Richard Osterlind, your first 2 DVD´s are, IMHO, among the best examples of working Mentalism available. The thing that stands out during the performance is your belief - particularly the spoon-bending. It was the first time I had seen a Mentalist present spoon beinding like he believed in what he was doing rather than present a cool trick. A profound lesson. |
Hypnotic Winter Special user Ireland 720 Posts |
To Quote Bartlewizard,
I dared to say I didn´t like something that is fairly popular. I stated explicitly why I didn´t like it and why I use other methods. I came under fire from lots of people who suggested I just "didn´t understand" despite the fact that I went into a fair amount of thought and detail as to why I didn´t like it. And it´s not an uncommon thing here. This is really what I wanted this thread to talk about as so many different things suit different people, it is not always the material but the performers natural ways that can omit a certain handling. I am not a biased person at all, I love so many performers yet do not find some of there work to suit me presently. Theatre of the mind for example is something almost every one else loves yet for me most of its material does not feel right. Everything Mr Osterlind puts out is something I can easily do and adapt so I continue to listen to what he says as in my own tests and performance his work validates it's self. Lot's of people cite Corinda and Annemann's material as outdated yet I find it easily readable and performable. I think it all goes back to those who have trouble with classic palm due to hand shape can just find another method like finger palm or thumb clip. In Peek Performance I did not latch onto the ideas that every one raves about but I did find some incredibly useful material on different topics making the reading still just as valuable. H.W
When your only reality is an illusion, then illusion is reality.
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