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Fabio P Special user Rome - ITALY 554 Posts |
HI All,
I understand that this can seem a silly question ( and probably it is) but I wonder a clear and definitive esplanation on the difference between mentalism and mental magic. Some magicians refuse this difference and some other underline it, what is the truth? Thanks a lot/Fabio |
Jim Reynolds Elite user Special Guest 431 Posts |
To generalize:
Mental Magic uses props; Cards, bags, boards, boxes etc...You can buy a mental magic trick from a shop. Mentalism uses no props (from the perspective of an audience) and you learn Mentalism from books - as opposed to buying it from a shop. |
mindmagic Inner circle London 1740 Posts |
It's not a silly question - you can find many pages of argument on the web.
I would agree with Jim but put it slightly differently - mentalism looks like how a real psychic would do it, mental magic looks like how a magician would do it (example: which pocket contains which coloured ball?). Barry |
EVENT Regular user Israel 170 Posts |
And what about: which hand contains the coin?
A real psychic will do something like that? |
Thomas Rudolfo Special user Vienna, Austria, EU 640 Posts |
Well, I also agree with Jim. Good description. But I should mention that a mentalist of course also can use props. But we should define props. I guess that is that Jim also meant. A prop in mentalism just are common objects like envelopes, pads, pencils, etc. So the the performer is the important factor.
Wherin in mental magic the performer also often relies on the mechanics of the prop. So you can perform many magic effects in the context of a mental topic but it still is magic (mental magic) Greetings Thomas |
entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
Jim and Thomas:
By your definitions then, folks like Fogel, Dunninger, Kreskin, Canasta, Berglas and even Uri Geller were not performing Mentalism much of the time. They all used or use props that help to get the work done. Geller uses compasses, sealed film cannisters and other uncommon objects in his work. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Tom Jorgenson Inner circle LOOSE ANGLES, CALIFORNIA 4451 Posts |
I think the idea of this thread is to define the difference, not to argue about the different interpretations. Before objecting to someone else's attempts at defining the difference, offer your own, more perfect definition to the mix. Otherwise, this thread immediately descends to arguing parses, clauses and words. Just like all the other ones on this topic.
These are people's attempts at a definition...there are no wrong answers, because they most likely will ALL be incomplete answers. If a definite solid difference could be explained in a sentence, we'd ALL know that sentence by now.
We dance an invisible dance to music they cannot hear.
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Ben Blau Inner circle 1475 Posts |
I personally think that the difference lies in the effects. Mental magic often combines the effects of magic and mindreading. For example, I would consider "Thought Cards Across" as a type of mental magic effect. On the one hand, the performer somehow knows which card a spectator is thinking of (mindreading), but on the other hand, it "teleports" from one packet to another (magic). Take away the magic aspect to the effect, and you have something that might be called mentalism (despite using cards), if the execution is clean, direct, convincing, and obviously not the result of sleight of hand or gimmickry (as long as it appears that way to the audience).
By the way, I think mental magic can have just as much integrity and entertainment value as pure mentalism, even though I prefer the latter for myself. Derren Brown's "Smoke" is a fine example of good mental magic, which sacrifices nothing at all by the inclusion of the "magical" aspects of that routine. Ben Blau
Ben Blau
http://www.benblaumentalism.com |
ChuckHickok Loyal user 245 Posts |
This is a tough question
I suspect Fogel, Dunninger, Canasta and others great performers of that era might appraoch mentalism differently today. As a mentalist, I try to convince people that my mental abilities are real. I try to use only props that are "invisible" or logical to use. I don't use anything that would looks out of place or cause my audience to think "magic trick". (This includes playing cards. Respectfully, this should be said.) If you want to be a magical entertainer, you can mix magic, mental magic and mentalism if you wish. Just entertain your audience! When you are done, hopefully people will say "that was fun and amazing". But most will leave realizing it was all tricks. If you want to be a entertaining mentalist, you will try to convince people what they are seeing is real. Just entertain your audience in the process. When you are done, hopefully people will wonder, "How did he learn to do those things with his mind?" It is NOT better to be a mentalist than a magical entertainer. Both are great ways to make a living. Just decide what's BEST FOR YOU...and choose a performing style that works for you. But, also don't try to copy others. Be You-nique. Just my opinion Chuck Hickok |
chichi711 Inner circle 5810 Posts |
Here is a good question.
Who cares? Did it entertain your spectators? Then it was great! |
Fabio P Special user Rome - ITALY 554 Posts |
When I posted my message I couldn't imagine such a long and so interesting thread. Thanks a lot to all the people who have espressed their opinion
Fabio |
chichi711 Inner circle 5810 Posts |
Fagani
In my opinion it is all magic. You can call it/you whatever you want, but when you really brake it all down and look at it, it is all MAGIC. It is only magicians that want to define themselves and seperate themselves. Layman don't care and that is what matters. |
Fabio P Special user Rome - ITALY 554 Posts |
Chichi,
I fully agree with you Fabio |
entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts |
T. Jorgenson: To post opinions on this forum and not to expect discussion of those opinions seems silly.
- entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Al Straker Grammar Host Australia 1129 Posts |
The answer will always be subjective as every individual performer has their own subtle characteristics. I believe the main defining difference is the way the performer promotes themselves and creates their character as a performer and the suggestions they implant through their speech and acting. Mentalists tend to make bigger claims because it gets them more publicity.
Someone billing themselves as a magician is openly acknowledging they are using 'magician's' methods. In other words, the audience is predisposed to expecting that everything they experience in the act has a 'secret method' and is therefore not REAL. Whether this is 'magic' or 'mental magic' the same suggestion of fakery applies. Some who bill themselves as 'mentalists' but perform using gimmick laden magicians props in the style of a magician might be branded by other mentalists as doing 'mental magic'. Then again some of the top mentalists today are still performing traditional magic items in the midst of their act and still creating the 'mentalists' persona successfully. It really depends on the skills and showmanship of the individual. People billing themselves as a mentalist tend to promote more of a premise of either 'this is REAL' or at least 'I am not telling you if this is REAL or not but I am going to make you believe it is REAL'. By believing to some degree that there are subtle but 'TRULY REAL' methods (which there are!) and using some of these in performance (muscle reading, pendulum ideo-motor response, etc) the mentalist type performer can come across as very real and convincing. Purist mantalists and psychics want to thoroughly convince you they are supernaturally gifted and the most dedicated ones go to great lengths to differentiate themselves from magicians. No mental magic to be found in their repertoire. Cheers, Al
Al Straker
Resident Mystery Entertainer at Multiple Venues Music & Mentalism Specialty Act 'Completely Mental' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyGhApqnG7I (Old clip, show has changed quite a bit since then!) Jazz & Contemporary Musician/Composer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnN3JNmeKns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU_zfOvpneA |
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