So you have over 2000 posts you are a member of the inner circle . so what do you do ? you consider yourself a guru in every field . heck you are the only expert around , or at least that's what you think ! . you think that you have learned every thing there was to learn , so what others say has become somewhat irrelevant . so what do you do ? you use this whole database of knowledge to help fellow members ? heck no ! you are the expert so if someone disagrees with something you have said you never think that maybe for once you were wrong and this guy said something usefull which you might learn . no what you do instead is use the super wonderfull technique called THE FLAMING ATTITUDE . you harass and complain and jerk around this poor kid who had an honest suggestion to your post


BUT wait a sec , THE FLAMING ATTITUDE is BIG FUN . it makes you feel good . makes you feel powerfull , and best of all it releaves stress and tension ( in fact most of the people which use THE FLAMING ATTITUDE do so unwillingly they just do it for it was ordered by their psychiatrist instead of anti-depressants )
but there is one problem unfortunatly with THE FLAMING ATTITUDE it comes in the form of the question , IS IT ETHICAL ???

The problem is that many new members to the field of magic get turned off and shunned away by flamers , instead of helping fellow members by guiding them these people are scaring them away by giving them a hard time and making it hard for the rest of the people in the forum for these new people feel afraid to post a second time for fear of getting flamed again . sure you might be downright sick of hearing about blaine and chris angel , but in your duty of a veteran you should guide these people and be gentle not harass them by saying something along the lines off " vernon rules ,blaine sucks you stupid newbie" . keep in mind that this person was exposed to magic by watching blaine do his stuff on tv . tought that it was cool and wanted to be like him . I'm pretty sure if this guy would have been exposed to vernon or marlo doing their card work he would have gotten the same reaction and would be asking where he can buy the next dai vernons trick instead of blaines .

so my petition is simple . be gentle and try to help your fellow members give the same treatment you wish to have in return . and remember the only stupid question , is the one left un-asked .

Well I am not sure who that post was directed at but I wish I did. Getting down to name calling is as bad as flaming anyone, in fact it is considered flaming. Maybe you should take this to a pm with the person you are upset about and try and keep these types of things out of open forums. Again I do not know who or what you are upset about and really don't want to know. If there is eveer a problem you have with anyone here at the Café' then tell Steve Brooks and he can deal with it. I am not attacking you in anyway just offering some helpful criticism for this place. I do hope you get settled what ever has you angry and settled in a good and uplifting way. Just my 2 cents here.

Happy Magic
Steven

Directed at no actually . just the way I wanted to express the issue , by turning it into something a bit satiric . then again if you think you fit the person I described that it might aswell could be directed at you

LOL
Sniper1, Good post, I think that you have a good point. It seems that many here at the Café are young and the only magcians they know/see are the ones on TV (blaine and chris angel) I have seen Blaine but have never seen that Angel guy.

I have been around a while and am of the Vernon/ Jennings group. They were the ones that I tried to learned from. TOday it is the new guys on the block. When I seen Blains first show, I was surprized at the common everyday magic effects that he did. He did simple stuff that all magcians know and have tried once or twice. And he had great reaction! From a magician point of view Blains magic was no real Earth scattering event! It was just simple everyday magic effects.

And that is why you get people Flaming him or other people talking about him. Because when some magicians watch blaine they say to themselfs, "Heck, I can do that! Why the H%LL can't I get a TV show?"

Blain did have a connection with some people which helped get the TV gig. Call it what ever you want, I will call it networking and making things happen. Maybe the flamers are really lazy deep down in their souls and may be able to do the magic but lack the drive to go forward. Maybe this is the reason behind the flames.

Maybe the flamers see and dream of what could have been as they sit in their chairs watching another magcian on the TV.

Ray

I have no problem with anything Sniper1 said above. Years (and years) ago, when I was a junior member of a magic organization, a friend, another "junior" worked on a multiplying billiard ball routine without the s**** gimmick. Now, this wasn't really a routine for presentation to laymen, but a way to demonstrate to his "seniors" how his skill was developing. He presented the routine at a club meeting, and the kindest reaction he got from the "seniors," at least one of whom is a very well-known magician today, was "Hey, kid, aincha ever heard of a s****?" It was like a slap in the face. Not long afterward, the kid gave up magic, and he was far better than I was at the time.

I agree, magicians as a whole need to be supportive. But the field seems to make people want to be competitive. It's always, who has the bigger wand. It's not always the case, but the point you hit on is valid. This is a reason why the magic Café isn't posted on more often. People are scared to ask a simple question. As soon as you do, people will hammer you with why it's not original, why it won't work, and bombard you with their opinions. This is not in itself bad, however, the thing that makes it bad, is that they put their opinions out there as fact.

Imagine a conversation between David Copperfield, Amazing Johnathon, and David Blaine. On any effect, they would probably disagree 100% on technique, routine, and possibly method. However, each of them has a niche. My point is no matter how successful you view yourself as in your selling of magic, collecting of magic, or even performing of magic. There are people out there that have a different style and will have a different opinion. Smile, agree to disagree, and be thankful that there are different styles out there because it makes you more unique. Things can be said in a constructive way and a destructive way.

Why not make the Café fun for everyone, not simply those with egos that wouldn't fit in a headturner.

**The ego in headturner joke was invented in 1908 and documented in Sphinx Magazine number 13 on page 35 and was edited by Johnathon Weigle. I claim no rights to this joke or any subsequent jokes created out of or modified from the original joke. I also, in accordance with magic law, keep a copy of the said article in a locket around my neck and kiss it every time after telling said joke.**

All I can say is our differences of opinion is the only reason I come to the Café. If I wanted to hear my opinion repeated over and over, I'd develop more personalities and talk to myself.

*The above smart-alec comment should be written down and documented so that I may retain my rights to said joke.*

Since the whining is about me I bet, let me say this.

First off ever been to a magic lecture>? ever heard the question, "can you do that with a blue deck?"? Don't tell me there is no such thing as a stupid question.

Second of all lets just say this to be kinder and gentler as your asking for.

Do you think there is a difference between having done this for a living for say 20 or so years and having seen a Criss Angel special and started last year? I hope your answer is yes.

So then why does a guy with a year in it know as much as a guy with say 40?

So when the guy with a year wants to act as if his opinion is as valid as a guy with say 50 years in, I believe this is where much of the FLAMING ATTITUDE you speak of begins.

Is it right? Probably not, well definatly not. BUT don't you think this is perhaps a problem that may have solutions on both sides?

A kinder gentler attitude may well be warranted, but perhaps a little less arrogance from the crowd who just bough their thumb tip, and invisible deck and sent in their IBM registration may be in order as well.

Can we add this to your petition? I believe I was kinder and gentler.
I don't want everyone to agree with me. There are 1000s of right answers, that is what makes magic wonderfull. BUT there ARE flat out wrong answers too. This is the part that seems to escape some.

And if I point this out in a harsh way and one guy gets turned off but 10 lurkers get the point, have I not done a greater good anyhow?

Sniper your feelings got hurt. Sorry. Didn't mean it. Get over it. Actually I believe I appologised on the other thread that got your panties in such a knot. I guess if your gonna actually be a comedian, the first thing you need to do is grow some thicker skin. Your gonna need it.

Yea I think a PM would have done much more rather than a thread.

Actually, I debated mentioning the fact that I thought it was about Danny, since I had posted on the previous thread that might have spun this one out, but I didn't want to get in the middle of it.

As I agreed there are people on this board that need to relax, let me just point out that I don't think, however, Danny fits into this category, he seems to genuinely want to help people and in the spoke of post, simply said research would make someone funnier, which is hard to argue. I think the thread he started gave everyone that actually strives to be funnier the knowledge on how this can happen.

I love ya, Danny. Even though after over 2500 posts you still are a shadow rabbit picture.

I guess I shouldn't have gotten involved, since I did not realize the original post referred to anyone or any incident in particular. However, I stand by what I said, that flaming hurts and discourages. Questions can be answered in a polite and kind way, even "stupid" ones. Comments can be phrased so as to encourage rather than discourage.

Take it to the bridge!

Get on up,
get on up
like a sex machine!
get on up...

Corona (feeling the funk)

p,s what is flaming & can it be done with a blue deck?

On many threads, Danny is usually one of the first guys to jump in and offer his assistance with good, sound advice whether it be someone who has spent one year or twenty years in this business. If he weren't genuinely interested in helping EVERYONE on the Café, he probably wouldn't bother.

DP.S. Dan, I love the blue deck line!

In another defense, Danny has given me sound advice MANY times as well as even initiating a conversation for others to jump in. I have also PMed him and have gotten a quick reply concerning more personal material situations.
If he was all talk than he would chime in on EVERYTHING here, however, you only see him showing his vast knowledge when it comes to stand-up comedy/comedy magic.
This post is NOT to argue but to give a testimonial of someone whos helped me and given me encouragement to start using my stand-up comedy.

Well thanks all for the support. Funny the detractors use but one incident to start name calling. But that aside. He does have a valid point. I was simply pointing out where frustration comes from.

The problem I suffer from is my passion. I took the long road. I studied, took the time to learn and feel this is the best way to do it. Can it be done other ways? Well yes indeed it can.

Can you do it my way and still end up a horrible hack? Well yes indeed you can.So there ya go. I am who I am, Popeye and me. Either learn to live with it or don't read. Pretty simple.

The thing is guys is to me it is a waste of time this nonsense that "everyone is good", and yada yada. I think I am doing someone a better service by telling them the TRUTH here, than letting them find out in front of an audience. I expect this same thing from others. I never shy away from someone telling me the truth.

I am wrong a LOT. That is how I get to right. It is no problem unless you get stuck in wrong. After all the time yea I am wrong less and less. But as I said after a few months or a year, don't come to me and tell me what is what.

By the way the "blue deck" thing is a TRUE STORY. Along with someone after an Aldo Colonbini lecture asking if it could be done with a "white rope" instead of yellow.

There are STUPID QUESTIONS guys. Grow up.

In short sniper, if I caused offense please accept it for what it was. Perhaps instead of getting angry and starting threads, maybe just looking at the point and taking out the heat would be in order. Again I offer an appology if feelings got hurt, but in the long run, better here than in front of an audience.

When advice is offered, I have never considered ones "feelings" as they are irrelivant. IF your feelings get hurt learing the truth, well then don't seek it. I offered no personal attacks so if your so invested in your opinion that your "feelings" are hurt, well that is another issue.

Well first off all I'm really impressed , for I never expected this thread to get so big . second of all danny there is no need for you to apologise , I know that you are a hard worker and a guy who doesn't like to beat around the bush but goes straight to the point when critising someone , which is good for if I am doing something wrong I would like people to tell me about it , but rest assured that I'm not angry or ****ed of in anyway altough your critisism wasa bit of a shock at that moment to tell the truth ,but please don't feel remorse for I am gratefull

now comes the hard part ( kk gimmie 2 mins to get on my knees ) I'm really sorry if the above post has offended you in anyway , but rest assured altough you were part of the insppiration to get me to write it , it was in the back of my mind for quite some time now and in fact I was speaking of a general attidude in some magicians .

another thing is yes stupid questions do exist . ive heard a good couple myself . but the point I wanted pass on was that if a question remains unasked ( still trying to find a way how to put this into words ) hmmmmmmm let me explain it as another maltese saying which when translated goes along the lines of "MISSUS QUESTION IS MR WISDOMS SISTER "

ok I tought that that would make me feel better , but why the hell am I still feeling depressed

Global warming?

Yes , like some other magicians have pointed out , there exist the problem where the new guy doesn't get appreciated by the veterans of the club , the whole world suffers from it in every proffesion unfortunatly , actually when the new guy or new idea goes against their ideals it get shunned ,and strangely enough if an if an idea does happen to go along with their ideals , they forget to give credit and just rip it off .

and like mentioned before , the reasons are many , stupidity gets first place , and a big runner up is jealousy . it could even be a firm set of believes , in fact many comedy performers aren't apreaciated by fellow magicians who specialize in the technical stuff for they deem what we do is not magic but simple silly stuff . ( alas they still don't know the hard work which goes in the developing of a succesfull comedy act )

wel that is all for now , I'm am sorry if I have offended with the above post , for that wasnt my intention ..................... well maybe a little bit ;-p

Sniper, don't you think that perhaps instead of it "hurting everyone" as you indicate, that the contrary may be true?

Kind of a rite of passage? Kind of a way to earn your spot? Sorry but respect is something that has to be earned, and given to be gotten.

Most of the ones you speak of have NO respect for where they came from. To think you should be automatically treated the same as soemone with 20 years under their belt, is actually in my mind a bit disrespectfull.

your post dosn't offend me, it is idicative of a person who wants to be more. Which by the way is great! the beautyfull thing about not having a lot of experience is that guys grow out of it eventually. Sorry but there are things that just ARE. Perhaps they are for a reason don't ya think?

Can you imagine buying a guitar, and 4 months later being on a level with the greats?
Automatically as "magicians" we think we are all equals. Well sorry that is just not the truth.