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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I am with Jack here guys. Why does a writers lack of age get considered?
It is wrong. When we consider things less objectivly because of age, sex, race, creed, well isn't that just wrong? Why is this so tough to get> Also for me if he showed some contricion like a 18 year old willing to learn, instead of lashing back like a hurt child perhaps someone may be less harsh.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts |
Danny,
I don't think that a writers lack of age gets considered until it becomes an unfolding of various missteps on the part of the writer. If he had come out and either quoted properly, or attempted to quote properly, he would have been received in a better light. When called on this, he immediately got defensive about it with a very weak attempt to validate himself. He didn't try to understand where everyone was coming from, or chalk it up to a re-invention of sorts, or show any remorse for what he said/did or what happened after (meaning this whole discussion). It showed his age and his unwillingness to grasp and understand the big picture. I look at essays and papers I wrote in high school and college, then compared them to what I write now and there are worlds of differences. Does that mean an 18 year old could come in here and write the best magical essay I've ever seen? Sure! I'd love to read it if it were good, but, I think Daniel's approach made the age issue rise up to the surface, and made it an 'issue'. I guess I liken it to when you see these kids, and maybe some of you don't, who are like Daniel in that they are into what is now and cool. They show up to a meeting or a gathering and act like they are the best thing walking. Or if you try to tell them something instead of listening they try to act like they know what you are talking about, or act like they know what you are doing. Being that I don't interact with magicians much, maybe it's just this area I live in, however, if I did interact a lot, or have been in magic for 20+ years, I wouldn't even have a fraction of the patience that I have now for this sort of thing. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Sometimes I wonder
If there may be some truth To the addage about those who teach Being those who gave up hope of doing. It's a shame that some so young have already given up hope.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts |
Jonathan,
Do you feel like you see this sort of thing happen often or is it more cyclic in nature? |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
IMHO those who learn without mentors are more prone to such things than those who have support and guidance.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts |
I don't think you could have said it better. I think the first step is the person has to aknowledge that they don't know everything and ask for the guidance.
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I have been actively involved with magic for 47 years, and it seems to me as if there are an awful lot of magicians who have obtained their knowledge of the craft largely from downloads, books and DVDs, and have never really had a magic mentor.
That is probably the way things will stay. With the DVDs and web making knowledge easily available outside the mentor/student relationship, the necessity of the mentor becomes less obvious. But this an illusion. Those who have longtime experience can more easily separate the wheat from the chaff--to see through what may look promising at the moment, but to those who have seen it before, just another useless dead end. With all of magic available to anyone that wants it, the trick will be finding the pony under all the manure. A guide might still be helpful. |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
I don't know. Seems to me that results are the evidence one looks for. Would you think someone with no name, and no success to tout, would be the person to learn from? On the other hand, the kind of success some people show, and the kind a magician should seek aren't always the same. I have found the magic community as a whole to be a very good gage of ones worth as a performer and a teacher. It is possible some good performers and teachers get overlooked this way, but it is my guess that it's just a matter of time before anyone with true talent and knowledge will be recognised.
Many years ago I called up Magic Island and spoke to Scott Hollingsworth(sp?). I had performed a few paid walk around events and figured working there was the next logical step. Scott asked me, "Well why haven't I heard of you?" I had no answer to that question, of course. I pretty much slowed my career down right then and there. I didn't realy concentrate on anything after that, other than being able to answer that question. Today, I'm not certain if Scott knows my name or not, but I do know that he knows who I am. I have learned an awful lot since that day so many years ago, and I am a better magician for it. |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Your mentor should be a perfomer whose magic turns you on.
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts |
And I think when you search for a mentor, it just needs to be someone you can gel with, or like Whit said, "(Who's) magic turns you on." Doesn't have to be anyone successful, famous, or popular.
I think one of the reasons I have been lucky with my best friend/mentor is that early on when we would just shoot the breeze or happen to be in the same room, he would show me something that I would love and point me where to go learn it myself. I would do that, come back the next time and show him some things from the same source. At that point he knew I took it seriously and, I assume, he realized that I would be worth his time. That's been several years and I consider that one of the most impactful things on my success as a magician. I think also, to get sort of back on topic, if Daniel had taken the advice given and demonstrated that he took this stuff as seriously as he said he did, he would be met with a warmer welcome. |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-06-22 15:52, karbonkid wrote: I think that, had he done that, he would have taken down the web page and started from scratch. Nothing I have seen thus far leads me to believe that this work was taken very seriously from the start. At least not nearly seriously enough. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Whit your so right and this I have been shouting from the rooftops for years.
The declination of any art is when the "mentor system" is ousted for quicker means. The aprentice program not on TV every week. Vernon, Marlo, Fecter, Ryan, and great magic mentors ad nausium gathering people to them simply by the force of their personalities. Even a 1000 guys we never heard of who took young kids and let them learn the right way. Now the computer downloads information to be sure, but painfully small amounts of knowlege is passed on. There is a huge difference in my view. Information is 2+2=4. Knowlege is "don't put out a campfire with your face". What we have reached is a point at which we have far too much of the first and way too little of the second. I don't see it getting any better in our microwave give me my answer right now world. Sure some guys will still find mentors which is great, but the vast majority of them will fall into this catagory.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Mentors can be helpful to explain things that could be taken more than one way.
Remember the Saturday Night Live scketch with Ed Asner, who played a senior engineer at a power plant about to go on vacation: "Just remember, guys, you can't have too much water in a nuclear reactor. I'm sure you'll be fine." |
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cinemagician Inner circle Phila Metro Area 1094 Posts |
Quote:
I admited above that I found much fault with his "book". I asked if anyone could site specific sources/people that were ripped off in just the first 30 pages. No one replied to this specifically. I think any intelligent person can realize that I was not trying to defend his work but rather put a halt to what I see as an embarasing witch hunt, and flame thread. "You do not punnish an old blind man twice for the same offense" - Master Po
...The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity...
William Butler Yeats |
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Josh the Superfluous Inner circle The man of 1881 Posts |
He doesn't need any defending. None of this ever happened. His book has won critical acclaim by all of us. I'm sure he will forgive us for any jealousy we might have displayed. And even blame himself for not transitioning us smoother into his original insights.
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2 |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I see no reason to offer citations and good research to those who have no respect for such efforts.
If you MUST write, cite your sources.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Josh the Superfluous Inner circle The man of 1881 Posts |
I agree.
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2 |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
And really, cover your tracks. I could tell him how to get rid of the evidence, but I'm not going to.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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