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WilliamWard New user 3 Posts |
I recently bought Banacheck's book, "Psychophysiological Thought Reading" after having good success with the muscle reading in Corinda, it helps provide somewhere to go from there with additional methods of making the contact with the person along with a great list of effects to perform. It also includes some information on pendulum and dowsing effects, though I confess I have so far only really experimented in muscle reading.
I am not familiar Satori's works |
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
This topic absolutely fascinates me also.
Here the books I have acquired recently. Now I need a big bucket of time to read them. Making Contact - Sartori 1998 Hellstromism - Robert Nelson 1937 Contact Mind Reading "Expanded" - Daniel Fitzkee How to Read People's Minds - HJ Burlingame Entertaining with Contact Mind Reading - Edward Dexter Hellstromism - Percy Abott Master Mentality - Stanton Carlisle 1978 Psychophysiological Thought Reading - Banachek 2002 Any suggestions of reading material or other media? Hal Weaving mention his article in Magick, but did give the location within the book. Vol three page 1165 part one and 1175 part two. Jerry |
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Matt Pulsar Inner circle 1130 Posts |
I say read everything you can find and practice practice practice. I agree with the early posts that Satori has the best work on the subject. I also think studying Osterlinds thoughts on it. I’ve been working with it a lot lately and am finally putting it in my stage show in October. I also recommend watching videos of Lev Schneider working. He did a whole run of shows on letterman at one point. Someone put them all on YouTube in one video.
Belief Manifests Reality.
Nebula CT: https://www.penguinmagic.com/p/8517 |
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Greg Arce Inner circle 6732 Posts |
Also, if you want to practice, put together a pseudo-CMR routine. Basically, you force choices or peek at stuff they have written then supposedly use CMR to find stuff, but you know the information beforehand. Although you are cheating, you'll still be able to practice by seeing if you are able to get the correct readings as you hold onto them.
Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Hummm - "Stuff they have written" - "Ffind stuff." None of that occurs in any Helstromism demonstration I have ever done.
If that is the approach suggested in all of these books I am glad IK never bough any. I bow to your greater experience as an entertainer, Greg, but feel that anything faked would destroy the trust essential to what I am demonstrating. I have produced extraordinary results with Helstromism based largely on full attention and willful support of the entire audience. I would never risk that or suggest that anyone else do either. Today I can't imagine having twenty people in the same room giving me the required attentions anyway, so it is moot.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Greg Arce Inner circle 6732 Posts |
Well, Funsway, just so you know, I did just that using Osterlind's SOS bag and it worked perfectly. In that case, as people came in, I had the bag set up on a clip. There was a board with instructions for people who came in to take a card, write a simple or weird instruction for me to do, then fold it and put it in the bag. On the board I gave examples: "Go over to a table and pick up a fork", "Jump up and down and scream like a chicken", etc.
So the bag allowed me to force 3 instructions. BUT I still had to use some CMR to complete the task. For instance, one instruction was "Go to the prettiest lady in the room and kiss her on the cheek." So I knew what I was supposed to do, but I still had to use CMR to get to who that person considered the prettiest lady. And my last forced one I use non-CMR and actually got to where I was supposed to go even though it had to do with any chair in the room. I was guided by a magician who knew me and he was freaked out... and I was also freaked out that I found the correct chair in a banquet hall. Anyway, it's a good way to practice CMR if you are worried. You'll start to get a "feel" for what you are supposed to be sensing and how different people react. I can do real CMR but just do it for fun in impromptu situations. It actually always surprises me as well when I get stuff right. By the way, in that SOS CMR, I had one person in the room say it was her suggestion. Since I wrote stuff that people might do, apparently I forced one that was similar to what she had tossed in the bag.
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
Matt and Greg, thank you for you suggestions.
I have purchased Osterlind recent book on this topic. I downloaded the Letterman Psychic video, a series of four excerpts. Hal and Robin Weaver recommend having one of five ESP cards selected in their article in Magick as a practice for CMR. |
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Greg Arce Inner circle 6732 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 20, 2021, Jerry wrote: By the way, it's easy to practice with friends or family. I started by just laying out 3 different objects on the table and had them think of one. The first time I tried it I got the object most of the time. A couple of times I was confused by what I was getting from them. Then, and I believe this is in Banachek's book, I had them pick one wall in the room to think about and was able to get the correct wall. You'll amaze yourself as you practice it. Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Quote:
On Sep 20, 2021, Greg Arce wrote: This is the key, methinks - and I fully agree that CMR techniques can be used in many ways other than a full demonstration. Plus, there are many ways to get subconscious clues other than by physical contact if (what I call Aware&Cue). And yes, CMR can be used to mask the fact that you can actually read minds compared with others. I just question whether any pseudo/fake approach is a good way for a beginner to learn, especially if the objective is Helstromism style (as I learned it) where nothing is written down and the entire audience is involved in the selection of planned actions. For me, the extent to which any telepathy/telempathy demonstration can impactful or memorable as a "real experience" is based on the risk involved - the need of cooperation to succeed. If the audience thinks trickery is involved they might give less than full cooperation and support. If I know trickery is involved I will not be fully open to empathic clues. In more than half of my Helstromism demonstrations I have been able to drop the connection and complete the complex action alone. Is this from heightened empathy or the fact that I am willing to take the risk? So, I applaud your ability to adapt to the audience in an impromptu situation. It is just something I would never do if I later planned to do Helstromism. What is the best way for a novice to learn? That is the problem.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Matt Pulsar Inner circle 1130 Posts |
Funsway, I like how I can tell from your description that you get what muscle reading is about. I was told by magicians for a long way to try doing a fake version to “get the feel of it” and I now believe that was useless if not detrimental to learning. One must practice this for real to learn it. The key is communication. I’m still learning but the curve changed drastically when I studied Satori.
Belief Manifests Reality.
Nebula CT: https://www.penguinmagic.com/p/8517 |
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Rhewin Loyal user 250 Posts |
Derren Brown recommends using m****d cards at first so you have an out in case you don’t get clear signals. Otherwise as others have said, practice on everyone you can.
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trebeseer New user S FL 53 Posts |
I have been trying to learn muscle reading for a while now and I find it extremely difficult. The scarcity of a willing victim to practice on makes it near impossible. Without practice it's not going to happen.
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
I spent months trying to learn CMR and get it to the point where it was reliable enough to put into my show. I was obsessed with it.
The thing to keep in mind about it is that there's no Plan B. If you can't get it, you're stuck and there's no way out of blowing it in front of an audience. After a long time, I had it to the point that it worked MOST of the time...but that's not close enough for a show. I just couldn't figure out how to nudge it into "performance ready" territory. Maybe you've seen the Matrix? I'm referring to the part where lines of code are flashing in front of Neo's eyes and he has this Eureka moment when he finally gets it! I decided to study CMR from another angle, one where I KNEW what to look for. I started doing the Sharpshooter Centre T*ar and asking my volunteer to choose any object in the room. "Think of it as I Spy," I said. "But instead of speaking, I just want you to THINK of the object and where it is." I did the tear and got my pe*k and then told the volunteer to visualize this object and where it was -- and did a CMR type of routine where I held their hand and they 'led' me to a specific object. Of course I already knew what the object was...but I was doing this exercise so that I would learn to READ THE CUES people were giving off...to learn from them because when you know what you are looking for, you can easily recognize it. After performing this way three times I clearly remember the instant when the lines of code made sense and I got it. I understood it. I have only missed once since then. It was my own stupid fault because I chose a man who was very drunk and didn't realize it until it was too late. It actually gets to the point where you have to slow it down so you don't get to the reveal too quickly. So while I respect Matt and understand what he is saying, I disagree. Once you have clearly identified that "something" the volunteer offers, you never forget it. So my honest advice is to study hard, work hard and then -- when you really need to nail down the non verbal cues, study the people giving them. It worked for me anyway. Hopefully this is helpful. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
This is very helpful.
Dave, I believe you have revealed the key to use a crutch or not. It may be BOTH! What I mean is, you can use some method of support and after your results diminished, stop. Try it without and see what the results produce. Or, do not use a "cheat", after your results hits a wall, use one. The same method used in physical muscle building, except this one is mental. By switching the approach causes a leap in performance. Jerry |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
Thanks, Jerry.
I don't think I made myself clear. I only needed to use the 'crutch' three times...and have not needed it since. The great thing about CMR is that when you get it, you really get it. Defining exactly what that "it" is the part you have to learn. But to be honest -- I found it very useful to use the 'can't miss' method until it all clicked into place. Not only do you get the intelligence you need, but you can also start prepping the routine. There are some drawbacks to CMR -- not the least of which is that it often comes across as TOO powerful and audiences are convinced you're using a stooge or some electronic voodoo to get the effect done -- which is particularly funny because it's one of the few effects that DON'T use anything from the outside. It is, in fact, as close to 'real' as possible in that the volunteer really doesn't say anything and you legitimately have no idea where the object has been hidden when you start. Oddly enough, I found it really helped when I let the volunteer choose the object they hid...so that I wasn't aware of what the object was either. It doesn't have an impact on the presentation at all but for some reason when I started performing it this way it got much stronger reactions. I only perform CMR at trade shows an when I am booked for a longer show. It takes a lot of time to perform properly. There is also the new Covid wrinkle of the possibility of not being able to touch the volunteer. I have seen it performed with a napkin held between the two people...but I've never performed it this way. Interesting times... David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
I gather from comments here and in other forums on CMR that most use it to find a hidden object or or action written down. Is this true?
This approach is far different from what I learned many decades ago. It does seem to lead to opportunities for faking it, or suspicion thereof. In the first presentation I ever saw in 1959, the performer explained what was about to occur with the restrictions of "not requiring dexterity or objects on any person." He then left the room as we, as a group, decide on a series of actions to be performed: 1) remove the center book from a stack of three on a desk, 2) move that book to a table on the other side of the room, 3) place the ashtray on the book. He returned, selected an assistant, had her hold his wrist and proceeded to perform the actions. .... I have used that as a model and performed many demonstration and have never failed to perform most of the desired/planned actions - including dialing a phone number on an old rotary dial. The glitches always came from having the audience NOT follow instructions such as wanting me to write something on a pad. After years of such demonstrations I had the confidence to often 'disconnect' physically and complete the actions alone. Yet, I sometimes did not for the "too powerful" implication mentioned by David above - not that anyone thought I was suing trickery, just the "edge of fear" generated that could lead to a denial of the events ever happening. This could influence any later demonstration of "lesser ability." One part of "finishing alone" is getting non-verbal clues from the entire audience and observation of physical changes in the room and objects. Did this mean I became telepathic? or had heightened empathy? or honed instincts? Not sure. I just created desire for the entire audience to see me succeed and combined subconscious feelings with constant movement and handling of objects. the assistant can only assist when you are moving - not when you are. Also, I require complete involvement for the entire group with no distractions, so I have performed very few times since cellphone invention. I also only perform Helstromism when the conditions are right - never on demand. So, I respect the views of those trying to make a living off of Mentalism and understand the desire to simplify or even "enhance" a quicky demonstration. But, also feel that any "faking it" will dilute the ability to achieve the more profound outcomes IF one desires such over "just entertainment." I would be interested in learning how others from their presentation - even privately.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
Wolf Messing used or displayed this method of muscle reading.
And Richard Osterlind does this also. I was not aware of this until you describe it Funsway, thanks. It has a greater appeal for me then running around a theater looking for a check. Well, mostly because I may never perform in a theater. I thinking along the lines of peering over a map or photo with the spectator viewing the location of the objective. Or now that you (Funsway) have brought this my attention, leaving the room and coming back to perform the designated actions. Funsway what was your source on this? |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
I learned it from Arnold Furst, then later read of it in a book by about Helstrom (or by him)
Please note that the best result is being able to pick up clues from the audience as well as the Assistant, so one tip is to always be moving, picking up objects, shifting balance and creating emotional tension. in this, the instructions to the Assistant after she/he holds your arm is critical, i.e. you must train them in exaggerated movement about a thought of action, and some in the audience will unconsciously mimic these actions too. Your skill is just absorbing all information and allowing our instincts to follow - overthinking will derail the empathic support. In one demonstration, Arnold came back in the room, looked around and announced, "I see that the magazines are in a different order, there is a set of keys on the table not here before and Terry has taken off his jacket that in now on the back of that chair. I suggest you all come up with something better to test telepathy." He left and we chose another set of actions. I now always look for things "out of order" as a guide to where to be active, but never assume any plan. I once deliberately avoided the "active spot" and the Assistant almost made be fall jerking me toward the chair.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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252life Inner circle Ninth Circle, Hades 3243 Posts |
Nothing to add. Just wanted to say thanks for the amazing input gents. I’m about to dust off some old books, and add a few.
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.
-Theodore Annemann |
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