With Black Jack what does it matter if they know? Counting or tracking is legal.
If they say your cheating just sue them.

Tommy they have the right to refuse your business for no reason. they will ask you to leave.

Xray I by no means say you should be the guy in part A of your example. As I said the "drunk" charector seems to be great to me.

BUT that is why you pull bets back, escelate them slowly as the count goes up. and yada yada yada. No need to go through it all here.

Please understand I am NOT arguing with anyone, only trying to understand.

I do get what you mean about when the count is negative and then playing the "hunch" but it dosn't always work that way. And if the eye happens to catch you making the bets and being right, then they start watching you.

It seems as if there is more camoflage for the counter than the tracker of slugs.

Again ONLY my preception.

Heck I may just learn to cheat Roulette. Only have to make 1 move to get 35 back!

The casino will never ever say directly that you are cheating... they will just ask you to leave and not come back and even without an explaination... and you cant sue them because its a private establishment.. They can kick out whoever they want from their property..

Danny, I know you are not arguing, and if it seemed like I thought you were, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. We are just discussing tracking which is one of my favorite subjects. Clearly you have a helluva a grasp of traditional counting.

"It seems as if there is more camoflage for the counter than the tracker of slugs. "
-On the contrary, its just the opposite. They have a lot more built in camouflage than traditional counters.
The guys behind the eye only have so much time to dedicate to watching people. They simply don't have the manpower or time to watch everyone who happens to raise a bet and then wins a hand. Espeecially if he bets, looks and acts like your typical recreational player, and shows a history of losing sessions. They will chalk it up that even a loser gets lucky once in a while.

No, they will go after guys who are like player B, consistant winners, or guys who's bet raises go with the true count. Of course, if you are a really BIG bettor they generally will watch you like a hawk, regardless.

As to correlating bets with the true count: Many many times I have gone to 2 max bet hands (in neutral counts) and no one raised an eyebrow, whether I won them or not. You have to remember that SO MANY recreational betors come to Vegas to "take risks", and take chances. Its part of the allure of Vegas: Throw a big bet out on a whim and hope for the best. Its how they get their thrills.

Between tracking and ratholing, I have real strong built in camouflage. Am I ten feet tall and bullet proof? Nope. ( I was once literally chased out of the MB, by a lady you might have heard referred to as "the dragon Lady" , due to my own stupidity.) But sometimes , you can't help but arouse suspicion no matter what you do. Then it is a matter of what you do/say to either confirm those suspicions, or dispell them.

I am a big believer in Don Schlesinger's addage that the object is to get as much money as possible but still be welcome back next time. Many others don't feel this way. To each his own, but I generally don't wait around long enough to get a lot of heat. Since I don't count for a living, I can always save it for another session a little later or move to another casino, or go take in a show, or whatever.

Hey, I think it is cool that you DON'T take my word for it on any of this. You might post/check out either Stanford Wong's site or The Bishop's, and see what other trackers say.

Again, no offense was taken by any of your comments, and I hope none was taken my any of mine.
MXRay

You say they can stop any one playing and they need no reason . I also think that is so.
However I did see an interview on TV with an ex cop who is now a pro BJ counter. He knows the law inside out and he was saying most people don’t. He said when a guy is asked to stop playing and leave most will just do as they are told but I don’t! They have to call a cop if you don’t do as your told and then they have to tell the cop what the problem is. In his case all the cops know him as he is some kind of hero cop. He said the casino staff can’t just pick you up and through out without just cause. Card counting is not a just cause as it is legal. As soon as they touch you they are technically arresting you and even a cop can't do that without just cause. He said the casino don’t the have to deal to me if they don’t want to but that’s their choice.
I don’t say that is right, as I don’t know but it is more or less what he said on TV. Did anyone else see the interview, I can’t recall his name.

I have never seen or heard of this interview.

I am wondering if there might be a bit of confusions here. They used to "back room" counters back in the day. They would tell the counter "come with me" , take them into a back room and interrogate them or worse) , but most good counters now know they can say something like" my attorney has advised me that I do not legally have to go anywhere with you, so will chose not to. " and then they just leave.
They don't have the right to take you to detain you against your will, but
can eject you or refuse to let you play.

Most casinos have a sign by the entrance door saying they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, just like most bars and many restaurants do as well. They cannot discriminate based on race, age, etc, , but many many courts have sided with Nevada casinos ejecting advantage player.

Ken Uston took them to court and lost in Nevada, but won in New Jersey. That's one of the reasons that the penetration and other BJ conditions are so incredibly bad in Atlantic City. These court rulings were all before so many states began approving casino gambling, and I don't know what state rulings have occuured since Uston's attempt.

First time barrings often go like somewhat like this: A casino rep taps the player on the shoulder and (politely and nicely, of course) the casino rep asks the player to please step away from the table. ( Out of earshot of the others at the table. ) The more modern reps will say something flattering like "Mr. _____, your a really good blackjack player, in fact your play is just a little too strong for us. So I'm afraid I'l have to insist on no more blackjack. However, you are welcome to play any of our other games."
(It often goes differently than this if the player has already been ejected previouslyt, or worse yet, was previosly told he cannot ever set foot on the property again. )
At this point the dealer knows his/her part in this routine, and knows not to deal anymore cards to this player. So even if the player did as this cop claims to have done, and sits back down, the dealer deals around them, and will not deal them any cards. If the player raises a big fuss about not getting dealt to, great. Then the house can eject him for being disorderly. Most serious counters will just take a hike , cool it for a while and come back another time..

Sometimes instead of the scene above, they will just pt the player on a flat bet restriction. This kills his ability to bet correspondingly with his fluctuating advantage, and thus kills the game for him.

I believe once it gets to the ejection point, you've already waited too long. Like I said earlier, I believe in Don Schlesinger's rules about this.) Watch for the usualy signs of heat, and when you are convince,don't sit there like a target. Move on, change up you play, go throw some cheap craps for a little while, or best yet, just move to another casino.

Jason England may have had different experiences here. Hopefully, he will re-visit the thread and add to it.

MXRay

I don't care WHO you are, if you have an advantage over the casino and they know it you are what is called an UNDESIRABLE!

If you leave prior to being a fuss, you can generally not make it to the "Griffin Book". Generally.

I have never been barred from anywhere. To tell the truth I have never gotten heat. I don't make huge bets, and quite honestly I don't play in places which would know how to count to 10 let alone cards. Also to toot my own horn my methods and my "act" are quite good and allow for a LOT of camoflague.

So all I know is stories about getting barred and the fact that it sucks.

I have never been barred, where they say I cannot come onto the property anymore.
Before I got into tracking I was heavily into wonging. I have gotten the tap and been given the "no more blackjack" when traditional counting (and yeah, it really sucks)but not when wonging. With wonging I usually went one end of a Vegas casino, strolled the pit a couple of times, made a bet or two when it was appropriate, and then went out the other door, and on to the next casino pretty quickly. I was never in a pit for very long.
When tracking, I have never been barred/tresspassed or gotten the tap. The few times I got heat, I turned it around and they ended up leaving me alone, convinced I was just another rube. I think so much of it is that if you act like you are up to something,they will assume you are. If you act (and talk!) like you don't know anything about the game, they usually assume that's the case.

Seriously, tracking affords you a lot of extra cover. I once had a traditional counter at my table get the tap, while I was sitting there tracking. Our bets seldom coincided. While they were reading him the little card, I expected them to read it to me when the finished with him, and was especially nervous because I had gone south with a lot of chips during the session. They had my comp card, otherwise I would have gotten up and walked. I thought it would lookway too suspicious if I got up and walked away without my card, and out of the casino while they were barring someone at my table. They didn't say a word to me.
MXRay

I read and hear so many contradictions about black jack that it is little wonder that someone like me who does not play the game does not know what the score is:
ie

http://gamblingmagazine.com/articles/14/14-15.htm


Is Card Counting Legal?

Card counting is actually legal but naturally casinos don't like the practice. In the 1980s players suspected of card counting were simply told that they could not play at the blackjack tables, and if they did play, they were advised they would be arrested for trespass. The use of reasoning powers at the blackjack table was seen as a threat to casino profits.

However, a lawsuit was brought before the Superior Court of New Jersey (Uston v. Resorts International Hotel, Inc., 1981), appealing a determination by the Casino Control Commission that allowed either the detention and/or ejection of card counters.

Cheating Casinos

It is now well known that casinos use technology and various manipulative devices to thwart card counters and stack the odds in the casino's favor. (A shuffle tracker recently explained to Gambling Magazine how casinos will go to extraordinary lengths to distract the attention or concentration of suspected card counters. His amazing revelations, secrets, and exploits will soon be featured here at Gambling Magazine. At one casino, he began to think there were less tens in a deck than there should be - in fact he had been playing for some time before he realized there weren't any left! All the remaining tens had been removed!

And so on.