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Bob Kohler Special user 704 Posts |
I'm guilty...it was me performing a three coin variation of the Cylinder & Coins at the A1 Convention. I also did the Rising Cards.
I really miss that convention, hats off to Mike. I hope he gets it together again. My preference of soft vs. pristine is that I think both styles have their place. No doubt that pristine, shiney Morgans always get the audience to think you're using the family collection. For larger crowds they really show up better. Soft coins, no matter how hard you try to clean them never get as nice looking as the "uncirculated" type. Ramsay routines however beg for you to use soft coins. I can't imagine anyone being able to do his original handlings without soft coins. Here's a joke I use when I'm using old soft coins: "Check them out...after the show you may want to wash your hands because 60 million people have touched them." |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
A ha!
It seems silly to say but those 3 minutes have impacted my life in a tremendous way. I had never heard of john ramsay, and did very little coin work so I admittedly wasn't paying close enough attention. After seeing the effect, I was profoundly moved and said to myself... "What the #@$% did I just see." I was completely caught off guard. The elegance combined with the nice props and the historical perspective won me over. p.s. Mike told me that he's currently having a hard time finding a "venue" for the next convention.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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RiserMagic Veteran user 361 Posts |
Dan;
If I remember and have time, I'll take a few pictures of artifically softened coins after Christmas. Jim |
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David Neighbors V.I.P. 4910 Posts |
Hi Guys,
You Guys Are Saying What I have been talking about The Last for the Last 30 Years! Yes Learn your Sleight of hand frist so you can handle coins like they where just coins, and can do stuff with whatever you are handed! But as the old masters said " you have to know when to do a trick as well as how to do a trick". A gaff rung in at the right time can kill!!! I know I have been doing it for the last 30 years! When you combind a gaff with sleight of hand, it lets you do the sleight on the off beat, so you have better cover! They cancel each other out! They say it can't be a gaff because a gaff can't do that! It can't be sleight of hand becase you can't do that with sleight of hand! So ie: It must be magic!!! As Erdnase said of palming " The Palm must be done so well that you don't even suspect, let alone detect it!" The same thing holds true for useing gaff coins! That's why I have come up with so many soft sells to show the coins are real. But thay have to be soft sells. As Al Baker used to say "Don't run when nobody is chasing you". Sound is a big factor! People know that coins make noise and gaffs sound bad! So you see magicians doing hoping half with no noise and in the back of people's mind they say why don't those coins make noise! They may not know what's wrong but they know that something is different!!! That's why I came up with my shell mask move and other finesses and sells. As well as using a rattle gimmick to put the sound back into the hoping half routine and lot of other stuff too! Sound is a more primeval sense! When your mind hears the sound it says "everything's all right! You can fool the eyes but if you can fool the ears too, that's a better sell! So if it looks right and sounds right the mind will not think of a gaff or that something is tricked or not real! When thinking if I should use a gaff for this routine or not you have to say is it worth paying the price? Is that routine worth it or can it be done just as cleanly and magically looking with sleight of hand? The key word here is "cleanly". I have seen some people so happy that thay have found sleight of hand handling when it does not look anywhere as clean or magical looking as the sleight and gaff combo! As Marlo used to say "if it were really magic how would it look?" Then try to get as close as possible! Of course you have to chose a working method for now, but you keep looking for a perfect way! As "the Professor" Dai Vernon said " Magicians stop thinking too soon". So if a gaff will give you that killer that can't be done by handling, use it! Use anything at the right time to get the job done! Sleight, gaff,self working, stack, or knucklebusting stuff if it gets the job done in the most magical looking way! If a hard move takes you a year to learn and looks like nothing is happening take the time to learn it! If a gaff rung in at the right time looks the most like magic use it! When useing a gaff (or sleight for that matter) your body language must be right! You have to have no shame and not feel guilty about useing the gaff! One more thing. The old masters used to say "The only person who can get really get away with the judicious use of a gaff coin is someone who does not need one". If you know you can do good sleight of hand you will not be stuck if you don't have your gaffs with you or someone Says "here do it with my coins". I was at a coffee house a few years ago and had my pad out playing with Matrix stuff and someone came over and asked what I was doing. I showed him one thing and he said " here let's see you do it with my coins!" I took his coins and did my ungaffed Matrix set and killed him with it. He then went back to his table! I was there most of the night working on stuff, so sometime later he came back over and said " Let's see some more! I took out a real gaffed set of coins and torn him apart with a impossible looking assembly and he did not think anything about gaff coins becase he knew I could do it with any coins handed me or so he thought . So anyway that's my two cent's Thanks! Best David Neighbors The Coinrer |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-12-19 12:57, Dan Watkins wrote: For MY purposes I prefer soft coins in the Ramsay routine. They're not absolutely necessary to the method, but I introduce the routine as a "classic of magic" and I offer to demonstrate for the audience "exactly the way John Ramsay performed his GREATEST miracle, almost one-hundred years ago..." (I lie a little about the "exactly" part; so sue me.) My point is that the "soft" dollars LOOK old; my leather cylinder looks like something from another century and the wand I use has inlays of silver, ivory and abalone-heart shell - which reminds one of Victorian stained glass. The entire feel I'm going for demands rich looking props, but from another era; uncirculated Morgan dollars wouldn't fit. In my opinion older, heavily worn coins LOOK like genuine valuable artifacts to a lay audience. I believe that with the advent of so many private "mints" and the release of so many "commemorative" coins, uncircs or near uncircs actually hold LESS interest for the average viewer. For the same reason I use VERY worn 1922-24 Peace Dollars for my coins across: I tell them that the coins have changed hands SO many times they can now do it on their own. Regards, Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Reed McClintock V.I.P. 772 Posts |
I think David Neighbors is absolutely right on his whole statement. Virtually everything can be done gaffless. If you can accomplish the same effect without the gimmick, then use the gimmick to make it less thought process for yourself. I think presentational focus for the audience is and can only make you better. When you know your routines so well you dont have to think about them you, I feel you are now doing magic and not tricks.
Presentation is everyhting, the method is relevant in that the spectator should not be aware of any method, if that makes since. Let me sum up my point here. If you want to use a gaff learn the effect with sleight of hand first then work in the gaff once you have thorough understanding of the routine. With this in mind the routine will flow with such a grace and fluidity. Gaffs make it so you wont have to work as hard and you can focus on your presentation more. well that is my two cents worth thank you for taking the time to read this post. |
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Dan LeFay Inner circle Holland 1371 Posts |
I have to be honest, I've never seen anybody perform C&C. (Blame it on remote little Holland here...).
I read and studied Carney's routine a little, years ago, unfortunately I wasn't motivated enough by that time to polish it into a worker. I read a lot of the posts, also on other forums, concerning this classic and now my fingers are itching... Bob, you're plans on the DVD have made me start drooling again You mention different versions. Will they all be explained also or are there performance only items? And do I understand correctly that you and mr. Wayne are going to bring out a complete set? Dan
"Things need not have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths, that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Neil Gaiman |
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Joedy New user 79 Posts |
I once did a coins across routine in a coin shop using some English half Pennies from the junk box. The coin owner was astounded. Completely gaff-less and the funny thing was that he watched me place a coin in my pocket, pull out an "invisible" coin and cause it to jump back into my hand (therefore ending the routine completely and squeaky clean.) If these were valuable coins, I could have simply walked out of the store with that coin still in my pocket - the store owner would have never suspected theivery! Instead, I used the moment to steal the coin back from my pocket and cause it to re-appear. Ended up even cleaner (and law-abiding).
Joedy Drulia Shendandoah Valley, VA |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Dan,
If you can't stop the itching... You can see the effect if you order john carney's Up Close And Far Away Video. http://www.carneymagic.com It's a performance only video but it is still on of my favorites. That video combined with the book Carneycopia, is all you need to get you going. Of course you'll need 12 months of practice. Frank
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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David Neighbors V.I.P. 4910 Posts |
Hi Reed,
about method, here's a cool story that happened to me awhile back! I was doing a lecture in L.A For O.C. Magic club a few years ago. After the Lecture Jim Patten Came up to me and said " David you have surpassed your technique!". He did not say anything more about what he meant by it. As I was thinking about it later I thought it was going past you, Tecnique or Method. That is as Reed said "The spectator should not be aware of any method", or any techique. Any sleight, or any gaff! All they should see is magic! If any of that stuff shows you are not there yet! You are still doing tricks, not magic! People go to movies for fantasy escape! We can do the same with magic! Reality can be tough enough as it is! So we can let people escape in to a world of fantasy for a wile where we can do the impossible. Unlike movies, we can do it live!!! So it has to look like magic! As Marlo said "If it where really magic how would it look!" If they just see tricks the illusion is broken! Someone said about my lecture " It looks like trick photograpy live" So if you can get past the method (that they should not know exists anyway) Then we can get to the good part! The presentation, and entertaining the spectators with magic! So when Reed started talking about the spectators not being aware of any method it started me thinking about Jim's statement again! So like Reed said when you know the routine so well that you don't have to think about it ( IE. surpassed your techniqe) that's when you are doing magic not tricks! That's when you can interact with your spectators and have fun with them! IE. entertain them.( Wow what a concept ). Ok so what do you think!!! Best David Neighbors The Coinjurer Hi Guys, I have been thinking about it for the last few days! As to misdirection, I think that except for the most basic use that most gaffs need more misdirection then some hard core knuckleing stuff does! Also more timeing and attention to detail then a lot of sleight stuff does! I am talking mostly about gaff sleight comb stuff! Say with a fliper coin as I have been working out handlings with it for the last few weeks! If you have to open a closed fliper coin one or more times in a routine that takes a lot of misdirection with a one or two handed opening! Say for a basic idea you have two coins one of which is a flipper coin and place it in the hand. You show the 2nd coin and pretend to place the itin your hand as you open the fliper coin one handed making it look like you placed two coins in your hand. Then one coin jumps from one hand to the other more visually then with the knucklebusting stuff but it takes more misdirection to do it! If you want to know more about it, get the books of wonder! In there Tommy calls it direction as it is easier to pull attention to something then away from something! Learn his cups and balls routine or a card under the glass routine to work on it. So it is for all of magic! Not just for Knuckbusting stuff! Sometimes the hard stuff needs less misdirection than gaff stuff! ok so that's all from me right now. Thanks! Best David Neighbors The Coinjurer |
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jw_2101 New user Singapore 76 Posts |
I think Gaffs really make some astonishing stuff happen... like Dean Dill's explosion... so they can be worth the loss of "purity" for some effects:)
regds Jonathan
He is no fool who would give what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
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marko Inner circle 2109 Posts |
Gaffs or not, all I care about is what produces the strongest effect.
Thought: Why does man kill? He kills for food. And not only food: frequently there must be a beverage.
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Explosion uses gaffs????
Why did you have to tell me that!!! Oh, well. The cat's out of the bag now! Frank
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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David Neighbors V.I.P. 4910 Posts |
Marko's right. As I said before use what works!
But you also have to know when to use what! Best David Neighbors The Coinjurer |
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Kozmo V.I.P. 5473 Posts |
i love those gaffed coins...until that little rubber band breaks...hey guys....look at this coin but don't break it....i use a 2 copper silver gimmick...well i used to...when i was working restaurants and i did gary kurtzs trio in three....off flourious...i kicked it up a notch...turned out to be really nice routine....but i only did that routine when i had people there that really liked the sleight of hand stuff...most people would rather have 12 sponge ballls pop out of their hands anyways...today...no gaffs...not because i think its a bad thing....but i have become a purist...i think i can do just about the same thing..be very entertaining while challenging myself on more than just the one level of entertaining them...its the most important thing...to entertain them...but its so much fun to challenge your self at the same time....i hate the biting coin thing...i hate that a guy can go into a magic shop and walk out a magician...entertain with just a tricky coin.,...but its ok....i'm gonna challenge myself at every stop....because its pure...i don't critisize anyone who uses a gaffed coin....but its just not for me....frank, i'm just letting you know that i'm still travelling the globe...with no regard to right or wrong
hope all is well koz |
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tricksite New user Colorado 16 Posts |
Some of the most important advances in coin magic have been from the development of combining sleights with gaffs, skills with tools, and developing the extremely difficult ability to pull it all off. In understanding the skills it takes (as Kohler mentioned) to pull of the use of a gaff, I have learned so much more about timing, misdirection etc. then ever.
Legendary gaffers (and master "knucklebusters"), Dave Neighbors, Bob Kohler, Dean Dill, and so many others have proved to us all the truth in transforming tricks into magic. And that you don't have to do "pure" sleights alone to be ... mui-macho! I must say, I'll never forget sitting with the professor, Larry Jennings, and others watching Dave Neighbors on his first visit to the castle. The professor just kept going on to the others... "did you see that?!! Watch this!!! Wasn't that beautiful!!" And the gaffs were abundant! We can so easily stray from our intentions if we get caught up in whether or not our methods are "valid" or noble, instead of the validity of the results. I think setting limitations is a sure way of ensuring a mediocre result. To set rules, such as leave the gaffs in the drawer, or I am only using gaffs, will surely keep us from growth. Dave gives one of my favorite quotes... "magicians stop thinking too soon" Didn't the master himself fool the legends with a cheek to cheek pack? Hundreds of hours with Neighbors (yikes! talk about endurance!) has taught me so much. In order to use the gaffs I use, I had to pay even more attention to what he's shared on timing, misdirection, presentation, salesmanship, etc. I have found that my early studies on sleights and misdirection, and even my time in Chavez, has benefitted using gaffs etc. more and more. And on the converse, I've seen many try and use gaffs to a ridiculous extent, disregarding basic rules in magic. After teaching some palming, etc to a student of mine he remembered a time when the coin was completely gone, both hands empty, etc, and he asked, yeah, but what do you do to make it vanish completely? I replied, "whatever it takes!" Anyone can learn to palm a coin, but can you make it vanish? |
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markyeager Regular user 191 Posts |
I must agree with Mike Powers. We as entertainers must look at our effects, as our audiences percieve them. I personally like gaffs and sleight used togeather in my magic. With the use of both, it allows for miracles that are the most entertaining as well as fooling the most astute audiences. The gaffs that are easy to get now, twenty years ago were impossible to get for any price. Guys like Todd Lassen who allow us to perform with gaffs that the audience cannot even dream about, need to be applauded. Gaffs allow me to concentrate on performance quality. This is my major focus for new material.
It's Fun to be Fooled
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