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Wolflock Inner circle South Africa 2257 Posts |
Icentertainment. Good Words. Wish more people here would take them to heart.
Regards Wolflock
Wolflock
Pro Magician & Escapologist Member of JMC (Johannesburg Magic Circle) South Africa |
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davybabybrazil Regular user Rio de Janeiro, Brazil 169 Posts |
Alex,
The only definition of mentalism I have ever heard (for non magicians and mentalists) was simply: Everything is mind.
It is hard to believe a man is telling you the truth if you know that if you were in his situation you would be lying.
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davybabybrazil Regular user Rio de Janeiro, Brazil 169 Posts |
Also you guys keep on talking about what works...as I stated Earlier- JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING WORKS- the idea is to approach your performance not just from and entertainment standard and look past your show and think about mentalism as a whole and protect it.
There is plenty of magic to choose from without touching mental effects.
It is hard to believe a man is telling you the truth if you know that if you were in his situation you would be lying.
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
What is Mentalism to me?
I look at it like this. If there was a real Magic University, and in one sense there is an unorganized one, what would the majors be? What what would the minor studies for the majors be? Mentalism would likely be a major and the minor studies would include Telepathy, Psychometry, Psychokinesis, Clairvoyance, Clairaudience and anything else that has to do with using powers of the mind that go beyond normal activities of the mind. Legerdemain might also be a major and would include deceptions by dexterity and misdirection. This might include gambling moves, scams, pocket picking, etc. Physical Anomaly might include feining death, endurance of pain, psychic healing, contortion, etc. If you were a student at this school there would be no reason why you couldn't change majors midway and/or choose one of the other studies to enhance your overall magic abilities. I've already stated how I feel about all this here: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=4752160 It's basically each individuals choice if they want to be a dabbler in all forms of magic and a master of none or stay with one major and master that. Some want to be percieved as having real magic abilities and others want to temporarily suspend disbelief and entertain. |
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Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
Am I the only one that thinks the original question posed by artemus was meant as a joke?
Neal
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
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Sir Pat-Trick New user Cincinnati, Ohio 54 Posts |
I am with you on this one neal, I think it was meant as a joke. But again this just my opinion. I was taught my by mentor. To study as much magic as you can, and be able to perform bits and pieces of everything. But if you find that one area that is calling to you, then all the better, but at least have a basic understanding of all magic. Again just my opinion.
Trick is in the Name!
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DerZauberer Elite user Southern California 468 Posts |
Didn't Robert-Houdin perform magic effects and mentalism in his routines? Is anyone going to challenge him as degrading one sub-class of magic for the other? How about Maskelyne, Kellar or Houdini?
I saw Copperfield perform a mental prediction type effect with numbers from the audience. In the same effect he produced an automobile. So where did he cross the line? I really don't see any reason why a working magician cannot use mentalism in his/her act if it's truly entertaining. Some would argue that it degrades the mentalism's effect. But what if I told you I have performed sleight-of-hand and mentalism in the same routine and had some lay people swear up and down that my supernatural powers were genuine. No matter how much I protested that I was using trickery and denied that I had any sort of paranormal or mental powers, they would not be convinced otherwise. I have performed in walk-around situations and done sponge balls and hot rod for the table with children; then melted forks, bent some coins and performed Osterlind’s Breakthrough card effects for the table across the room. The point is, I was hired to perform as a magician and I delivered the goods. Some people will cringe when they hear sponge balls and fork bending in the same sentence. But my routine seems to work and the audience was entertained. |
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leapinglizards Inner circle 1263 Posts |
Ok- my two cents:
I think first, we need to eliminate the word "Should" from this discussion- Should implies some guilt or morality issue being looked at by a source of authority. In trying to extract meaning from things, when people say "You SHOULD do X" the first question we ask is, "Should according to who?" and then "Well, what would happen if you did/did not?" I think that we must draw a line between mentalism and psychic entertainment. Mentalism, I think, can be mixed well with magic here and there. It depends on the nature of the rest of the show, maturity and stage persona of the performer's character and nature of the audience. Doing the "Cousin of all book tests" at a kids birthday party might not be the wisest choice as a performer or artist. Doing it in a club environment of stand up magic would work just fine. Now, doing psychic entertainment- for instance a Geller-esque design duplication, Q and A act, palm readings- probably would not be a good match- again of course it depends on the performer. It also depends upon your frames. if you frame your mentalism as "I can create the illusion of having a sixth sense" it will be better received in a traditional magic show. If you frame it as "I can read minds." then it may be an unreasonable stretch for your audience.
Leaping Lizards!!! Who knew it was possible.
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Sealegs Inner circle The UK, Portsmouth 2596 Posts |
Leaping lizard,
Firstly: I think your idea of the label of 'psychic entertainer' very useful. I feel as if I somehow know intrinsically what that means. Personally I've never got the mentalist vs magician-who-does-mental-effect distinction as to me these two overlap too much for it to have any meaning. Of course what we each now consider falls into the realm of the phychic entertainer can be endlessly debated but personally I have more of a feel for the term. Secondly: Re: "if you frame your mentalism as "I can create the illusion of having a sixth sense" it will be better received in a traditional magic show." I'm interested in your reasoning here? By 'traditional' do you mean not very entertaining? in which case.... ok, or do you mean traditional as in a magician taking on the role of mentalist? (complete with it's blurry distinction) Neal.
Neal Austin
"The golden rule is that there are no golden rules." G.B. Shaw |
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leapinglizards Inner circle 1263 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-10-13 08:52, neal austin wrote: What I meant was basically that in a traditional magic show- there is the understanding, either implied or explicit, that it is a series of illusions. I think Lay audiences "know" that Copperfield doesn't fly, and that the cut and restored rope is a trick. So, if the performer demonstrates- for instance- mental epic as an illusion of mind reading, people will accept that. If, sandwiched between 6 card repeat and the linking rings, one tries to do a Q and A act is if it were legit- I think the audience would have a tougher time "accepting" the demonstration. By accepting I don't mean consciously necessarily, but on an inner level- if that makes sense. Part of what makes psychic entertainment (however one defines that and this is of course subjective) is that there is a "hmmmmm maybe this is real" thing going on in people's mind. For SOME of it, the methods are so simple, without that "hmmmm maybe its real" thing going on, there is no more mystery. Now- what makes the difference between psychic entertainment and mentalism, that is more about frames and cleanliness than the "trick" itself. I think mental epic- again for instance- might be presented as a "mental magic trick", "metnalism", or "Psychic Entertainment." Some other things, such as readings, stronger design duplications, etc- may fit more appropriately in one genre than the other, regardless of presentation- assuming the intent of the presentation is to hold the experience in tact and not make it comical. Does that make sense?
Leaping Lizards!!! Who knew it was possible.
<BR> <BR>www.LeapingLizardsMagic.com |
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Jamie D. Grant V.I.P. as seen in Ripley's Believe It or Not! Twice! 2413 Posts |
Well, I tried to give my usual fun loving personality a more serious slant on Friday and it went over quite well:
Eight-Card Brainwave Was I a Magician performing a Mentalist effect? I think a better question is, Does it matter? I think we need to perform what works for us. And that might change, even on a day to day level. As long as you can do the creator of the effect, the art, and yourself, justice; Then perform what works- for you. My 2 cents, jdg
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aussiemagic Special user 937 Posts |
When you perform mentalism you can "demonstrate" your mental abilities. Mental abilities that we all have but you have trained to a higher level than the average joe. Body language, NLP, suggestion, etc are ways to explain what you have done and to cover the real trickery that has gone on. If done well, your audience will believe that you haven't used trickery at all you have used your trained mental abilities and skills in observation or whatever.
This kind of demonstration will have a very different impact on your audience from a magic show. If however you try and do mentalism within a magic show people will suspect trickery.
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daffydoug Eternal Order Look mom! I've got 14077 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-10-10 04:48, icentertainment wrote: AMEN!!! Posted: Oct 20, 2006 8:39am I would, however, make an EXCEPTION with certain types or styles of performers. Example? Think of Bill Malone and his act and style. I would surmise that mentalism would not fit in to his set very well. In fact, it would be an incongruity. But that is, as I said, an exception. Many performers can, and indeed HAVE succesfuly mixed the two genres.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
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pete Loyal user Finland 207 Posts |
Aussiemagic wrote: If however you try and do mentalism within a magic show people will suspect trickery.
And that is a problem because...??? If you don't like it, then you don't do it. It really is that simple. I don't see any problems if someone like to do mentalism in magic show, because it's not my show. Like Jamie wrote: we need to perform what works for us. That's what I think. Pete |
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daffydoug Eternal Order Look mom! I've got 14077 Posts |
I wanted to make another point, but my post didn't go through. So here goes. Max Maven, whom we all know as a pure mentalist if ever there was one, has also marketed over the past couple years, several magic effects. NOT mentalism, I said MAGIC, as in sleight of hand, packet effects, the latest being "Lemonstration".
My question is this: Has Max been including these effects in his performances? It would be intersting to find out, because if so, then that blows the whole "Magic and mentalism are oil and water" theory out of the water. And also, Richard Osterlind has included some magic in his performances, too. Perhaps someone here ought to inform him that he is not allowed to do that. Maybe a nice, firm slap on the hand? C'mon. Let's get real folks.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
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Cameron Francis V.I.P. 7025 Posts |
After thinking about this quite a bit, I realized that what I really meant to say before is this: mentalism is a broad term. Some mentalists do palm readings. Others do not. Some magicians work with doves. Some do not.
There are many facets of mentalism. Mixing magic and mentalism does not necessarily cheapen either art. Look, I call myself a magician. But sometimes when working at one of the restaurants, I'll do a set of mentalism for a few tables (I did this last night). Maybe they saw me do a card trick at another table. So I'll say, "You know, I want to try something different with you. This isn't a card trick like you saw me do over there. This is more of an experiment of the mind." And then I'll go on to do a mindreading routine. I'm basically telling them I'm switching gears. And it works. Do they perceive it as "magic". Who know? I don't ask them how they perceive it. I just do it and let them come to their own conclusions. Sometimes I'll perform magic and mentalism in the same set. A transition I've used between magic and mentalism effects is this, "Now, it's one thing to cause objects to travel through space and time. But it's a completely different thing to transfer a thought from one person to another. Some might say it's even more difficult as a thought is more abstract, ethereal. But let's see if we can do it..." This works. And I don't think it cheapens the mentalism.
MOMENT'S NOTICE LIVE 3 - Six impromptu card tricks! Out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/moments-notice-live-3.html
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
Max also uses tons of card effects within his shows - but he transports everyone to the world of illusion and magic 90% on his presentation / personality alone IMHO
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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daffydoug Eternal Order Look mom! I've got 14077 Posts |
True. Max's character is so strong that he could get away with practically anything, I suppose.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
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James Alan Special user Toronto, Ontario 680 Posts |
His character is quite strong and he CAN get away with anything. In the course of his one man show in Toronto a few months ago, he put a spectator into an arm lock and threatened to break his wrist if his prediction was wrong and threatened to punch one the spectator who blindfolded him because her thumb slipped. (of course this was all very amusing to everyone who WASN'T on stage.
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