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ToasterofDoom Special user 671 Posts 
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I feel the rest of Derren Brown's prologue is vital as well:
"I achieve all the results you'll see through a varied mixture of those techniques. At no point are actors or stooges used in the show." <Also gets the "he just set it up beforehand" crowd out of the way. |
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Omid Veteran user Israel 332 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-12-18 21:26, ToasterofDoom wrote: "At no point are actors or stooges used in the show." Yes, sure 
But to his credit, when does use stooges, he does so in a very elegant way. |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3226 Posts
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Dpe666 wrote:
Quote:
Why is it that most mentalists are afraid of having the public think that they can really do the things they perform? Perhaps it's not fear, but rather integrity. I wouldn't mind faking lifting 500 pounds, but I would have to use a context where the audience knew I was using trickery. Calling myself a magician would be enough context in most situations. Of course, there are people who can lift that amount of weight, so the reality of the phenomenon isn't necessarily relevant. Perhaps it is fear for some. They might realize that charlatans alienate a significant percentage of their audience.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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rgranville Elite user Boston area 463 Posts
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Sigh. How many mentalists can dance on the head of a pin?
What Michael Close said of cardicians and flourishes applies to so many aspects of magic - including the "controversy" over disclaiming in mentalism. His view (distilled) is: Decide for YOURSELF what is right for YOU and then be CONSISTENT with that decision. That being said, Bill's example smacks at the central problem. In today's world, it's hard to find people who believe one can really change a blue backed card into a red backed card, or can really turn a one dollar bill into a twenty, or can make a ball disappear from under one cup and appear under another cup, or can pluck doves from thin air, or... While most of us don't understand the physical world, we all know it is understood, at least to the point we (the scientific lay) are capable of understanding. The same CANNOT be said of the mind. So there are people who are willing to - or do - believe that there are potential abilities of the mind that the average person doesn't realize. No one's going to say, "He really made my card rise to the top of the deck through magic. There's just no other way." But there will be people who say, "He read my mind. There's just no other way." This can be very unsettling to the performer. Whether that unsettling feeling is realized as fear or integrity (which could be interpreted as a fear of personal guilt, Bill  ), one has to deal with it. How to deal? Read the Michael Close tenet again. And realize what is right for you may not be right for others.
:banana: |
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Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3226 Posts
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Rob,
While it might be unsettling for some and/or produce guilt, I don't think that's generally the reason most performers don't do it. It's not why I don't. Some people decide that disseminating disinformation about themselves is wrong. Still others decide it's bad for the art because it alienates a significant number of people. They want to be as inclusive as possible.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
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Roth Inner circle The 18 5090 Posts
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I did Banachek's Reversal and hit on the first number (6) The spec was so freaked out they would not except the fact that it was anything other than the real thing, even though I prefaced it with Banacheks line " If I could read minds, this is what it might look like"!
I like to perform for people that want to believe "magic" can exist. (not that reversal is a magic trick, so to speak). RR |
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Omid Veteran user Israel 332 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-12-21 13:08, Roth wrote: It is a matter of style. If I perform it the way you did, at the end the spectators will be left with only two options: either I did some trick, or I truly read minds, and I don't like any of the options. The way I perform Banachek's reversal is that at the end of it I ask the participant to loudly say all the digits from 0 to 9. And then I reveal the number. This way the spectators are left with the explanation that I somehow captured the digits by listening to the tone change. P.S. Any reason why you use 6 as the first guess? |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts
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The concept of "letting the audience decide" seems to me disinegenuous.
The performer does everything in his abilities to convince the audience of the reality of his effects. Even if he doesn't state specifically that what he does is real, if his performance is convincing enough, the audience is led to believe. You are not really letting the audience decide. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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espmagic Special user 979 Posts
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Let's not forget9!), magicians usually run without being chased...this is why they show the deck as "normal", thus inspiring the audience to believe that there truly are abnormal decks out there, and this isn't one of them.
So, are there truly psychic powers "out there", and you are simply showing what they might look like? Or are you showing what they *are* like, 'cause you know for sure? Or, are you tying up your shoes in case you have to run? Lee |
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Roth Inner circle The 18 5090 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-12-21 13:16, Omid wrote: It's Richards Buschs' subtlety. If you don't hit your out is that it was not a 6 it was a 9 |
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jakeg Inner circle 1741 Posts
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Darrell Fitskie (sp?) said that a magician is an actor playing the part of a magician. (IMO) If you come to the audience as an entertainer, and by the time that you walk off the stage, the audience believes you can read their
minds, you probably have done a good show and kept them entertained. That's your job. That's what you got hired for. I opened my show saying something like: You've seen magicians do magic with their hands. You will now see magic of the mind ..... I make no claims for what I do. With enough knowledge and enough practice anybody in the audience can do the same thing. For example, that lady sitting over there ... (into my first routine.) jake g |
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Omid Veteran user Israel 332 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-12-21 13:49, espmagic wrote: In other words, there are three presentation options: 1. There are real psychics. And I am one of them. 2. There are real psychics. I am not one of them, but I show you what they are like. 3. There no real psychics. And I am the closest one can get to real. I think option 2 is very weak. The spectators will deem you a fake and think to themselves: "wow, if this fake is so good, I wonder what the real thing looks like". You certainly wouldn't want that to be the impression you leave. Option 1 is good only if one prefers to pursue "charlatanism" instead of mentalism. So, the way I see it, the 3rd option is the only way to go. |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts
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Actually, it was Robert Houdin who said that a Magician is an Actor playing the part of a Wizard. (loose translation from the original French)
Jakeg, you do, in fact, do a disclaimer. You speak of magicians and then say you are doing magic. You further state that with training anyone in the audience could do the things you will do, implying that what you do is not supernatural. - entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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jakeg Inner circle 1741 Posts
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Omid: I never claim to be supernatural. I usually tell people that 'thought reading is like playing the piano. Everybody had the ability within them. However if we both studied under the same music teacher for the same length of time, and each of us practiced the same number of hours, we may both know how to play, but chances are we would be at different levels. You might be great, I might be lousey. I found that I have a talent that most people haven't spent the time to develop.'
My approach is simply: You decide. Am I for real or not? It soesn't matter what you tell them in the beginning of a show. If you've put on a good act people will be believe what you've done is real by the time the show is over. I once did a show at a magic convention and some of the magician's wives lined up to talk to me afterwards .... go figure. jake g |
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Omid Veteran user Israel 332 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-12-21 17:19, jakeg wrote: Nimrod Harel uses something like: "I don't have supernatural powers. Everyone can learn to do what I do." I use this kind of disclaimer too, but later when I hear people talking about me, they understand that sentence meaning that I have learned to use some telepathy part of the brain that everyone has but they don't know how to use it. Quote:
It soesn't matter what you tell them in the beginning of a show. If you've put on a good act people will be believe what you've done is real by the time the show is over. This is true. For that reason I put the disclaimer at the end. |
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entity Inner circle Canada 5060 Posts
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It does matter.
- entity
email: tomebaxter@icloud.com
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Bambaladam Special user 636 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-12-21 14:34, Omid wrote: Actually, limiting this to the psychic/esp paradigm is both unfair and unimaginative. For one thing I am uncertain how the information given to the general public is less misleading in this context: In other words, there are three presentation options: 1. There are real body language/nlp/mind control experts. And I am one of them. 2. There are real body language/nlp/mind control experts. I am not one of them, but I show you what they are like. 3. There no real body language/nlp/mind control experts. And I am the closest one can get to real. Do you agree that the statement 1 above is no more true than your own statement 1? I am considering "using the five senses to create the illusion of a sixth" a cop out here. It is too vague to be an explanation. If the created illusion is openly explained in terms of "magic tricks", It would be a 2 or a 3. If it is claimed to be the result of "manipulative" or "suggestive" psychological techniques or unrealistically accurate theories of psychological tells it is a 1 unless it uses no other methodology than that mentioned. If so, do you seriously consider these statements 2 and 3 viable options for a mystery performer, even one desperate not to mislead the public (I cannot account for the whims of human conscience...  )?
Second, I question the narrowness of the premise paradigms on offer here. I am working along a separate axis, let us call it X for the purpose of this discussion. It gives me the following situation: 1. There are real X:ers. And I am one of them. 2. There are real X:ers. I am not one of them, but I show you what they are like. 3. There no real X:ers. And I am the closest one can get to real. Naturally, my decision is to use statement 1. X is defined in such a way that I am not being deceitful in claiming so, although I am prepared to use deception to fulfill the obligations thus acquired (don't ask me to specify, use your own creative powers). Coming up with a suit that fits you is part of the job. Wearing it well is another. Why I should let someone else decide how the suit I have to wear ought to or ought not to look is beyond me. /Bamba |
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bobser Inner circle 4179 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-12-18 03:11, mindguy wrote: I think these two words close the thread on this. Bobser.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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sludge Special user milton keynes, england 530 Posts
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Nope.
Do as thou wilt... imho. |
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Posted: Dec 19, 2006 02:26 am 
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