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Sandstar Loyal user 232 Posts |
I spent years in the direct marketing business. Ethical standards have been established for many years within that industry. For some reason magic dealers don't think they have to live by those standards. A basic standard: Don't charge a customer's card until you have the product in house ready to ship. Yet, this happens all the time within our market. Latest case in point? A major dealer in New England. I ordered a product at the end of March. Was told it would ship within two to three weeks. Of course, my card was charged immediately. Never shipped. Finally I called about it two months later. I found out the product isn't even going to manufactured anymore. They would have kept my money indefinitely without even contacting me. Now I'm having trouble getting a refund. The amount was $170.00. This is no small dealer. It's one of the majors. The same thing happened with a major dealer on the west coast. How long are we going to put up with this egregious lack of ethics?
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Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4694 Posts |
I had a similar problem with a well-known dealer on the East Coast.
What stuns me is the total lack of communication I received. On top of it, I had ordered more than one item at the time, and so they delayed shipping the items they had in stock until the out-of-stock item came back in. Well, after a month of waiting, I called them, got them to ship what they did have, then refund me the remaining amount owed. I then vowed never to do business with them again.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12938 Posts |
Sandstar, I BET I know the dealer you are referring to?
Regardless, call the credit card company and request a chargeback. It's that simple. Then, NEVER do business with that dealer again. For some dealers, that's their MO. John |
Waters Inner circle 2508 Posts |
I have had the same problem with some well known dealers.
I placed an order for an item advertised as in stock and had to call a week and a half later to find out the product they had was not complete and would not ship for several weeks. I had to call several time to get my order completed. This was a $200 purchase. My card was charged and no communication was made about the delay. They would have said nothing. Another occurance by the same dealer, several years prior: I had called to compile an order for some items I was going to use for a potential show (there was a particular theme). Again, $200+ order! Without notice the items were billed and no call was made. They obviously knew that the order had not been finalized, because they never were shipped. I was not happy. I ended up using the credit for other items. There is no real recourse! A very popular East Coast Dealer that rhymes with "Lank Hee" offered me a discounted price and then back-charged my card without permission for the item (without calling me to get permission to change the order after it was processed). Sad! sad! Sean |
Julian Kestrel Loyal user 268 Posts |
You'll never have such a problem with Denny of Denny's Magic in Baltimore.
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Reuben Dunn Inner circle Has a purple ribbon wraped around my 1592 Posts |
And here I thought it was only confid to Strvings and Cassidy....
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
Nah... there are tons around here.
However, sometimes when I know the person is reputable, I have a good relationship with him/her/company, and have never been elt down, I do not mind preordering since likely the creators/developers often need some dough to eat while they are building and prepping the material. Again, I only do that for people I know and trust. Also - what do people think of the loads of people who actually use threads here to advertise their wares over and over without buying any actual ad space on the Café... there is one thing about others posting reviews - but I hate when the creator comes on and starts thanking and thanking and giving links to their products, their upcoming products (on the thread about the original product), and using an array of people by giving some freebies out.... groan, its like certain pharmaceutical company sponsored talks ... c'mon.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12938 Posts |
It's marketing MAN. It's no different here than anywhere.
John |
mikethemagish New user 48 Posts |
So I was told this is the place to continue this topic...
This whole Garcia thing I guess we should continue the discussion about the BOB NEALE and ANDREW GOLDENHERSH trick where you fold a dollar bill and you cause it to look like a butterfly. When you put something out and then ask for permission later...on more than one occasion you know it's not just an accident. This is just basic ethics and it would be nice if more people did the right thing instead of trying to make a quick buck. magish for life |
Magic_Steve Inner circle Maryland 1476 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-06-18 16:05, Julian Kestrel wrote: True dat! But seriously, Denny is a great guy with an excellant shop. Sure he likes making money, but his passion for magic defintely goes beyond the dollar signs. Best, Steve |
Sandstar Loyal user 232 Posts |
I think there's a need for a website that would hold these guys accountable by name.
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ScottRSullivan Special user 874 Posts |
Yes, Denny is one of the top dealers we have in the industry. I either buy from Denny or direct from the inventor (ie: John Carney's books are only available from him).
Just an FYI regarding the charging/no shipping situation. You might want to know that it is actually ILLEGAL for any company (magic or "normal") to do this. By law, once they charge your card, they only have 50 days to ship (the government site with this info and lots of other related info is at: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/billed.shtm). Scott |
Sandstar Loyal user 232 Posts |
Thanks for that link. This info should go out to everyone. I'm sorry this thread has been moved.
Also, I'm going to focus much more Denny. Sounds like a good company. |
ScottRSullivan Special user 874 Posts |
I just noticed that the forum software included my end parentheses and period in the link. They should not be included. Here's the updated link:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/billed.shtm Also, if you want to find out more about Denny, I interviewed him a month or so ago for my podcast. We ended up doing two shows from that interview. He spoke at great length about ethics in magic. And he walks the walk, too. The link to his interview is: http://www.reelsinmotion.tv/magiclantern009 Glad that the government link above was useful for you. Scott P.S. I am no way affiliated with Denny's shop. I just think he's a great and honest person. |
Sandstar Loyal user 232 Posts |
Thanks for the clarification about your lack of affiliation with Denny. Not that I questioned your honesty at all. There does seem to be an ugly little marketing system at work here in the Café. There's nothing wrong with marketing as long as it's above board. But, clearly, there's a lot of garbage going on here. The fact that this thread has been moved out of the general population into an area where few will read it is disturbing. Why does there need to be a separate category called "Right and Wrong?" It's a wonderful way to divide ethical questions about advertisers out of the wider discussion. (The end does not justify the means, Mr. Brooks. Do unto others...)
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MagiAndrew New user 20 Posts |
Years ago I remember being disappointed to find that a major magic dealer out of New York would substitute an item in my order if the original item was out of stock. There was no phone call, no permission and no regard for if the price just happened to be a little higher. I was a kid then and didn't know that I didn't have to accept the substitution.
Just last week I was surprised to find that this very same practice is still exercised by some dealers. It happened to a kid from my city who ordered from an Internet dealer. Has anybody else had this experience recently? Sandstar, I think your idea for a website that records unethical magic dealer practices is great. -Andrew |
edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
Sandstar I to whole heartedly agree that a website for the exposure of unethical magic dealers is needed. There are to many.
Is it just me or does it seem that unethical/poor customer service from magic dealers is more rampant in magic than in other industries? As long as magicians have no recourse then the practice will continue. I say expose these guys for what they are! Con artists!
Magic is a vanishing art.
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Drew Manning Special user Dallas, Texas 913 Posts |
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I say expose these guys for what they are! Con artists! Oh the irony of that statement! Way back in the day, the magican would do a show while his pickpocket accomplice robbed the audience blind. Guess we're not as far from those days as e thought, are we? In all seriousness, I agree that there is a responsibility to the customer to keep them updated on the status of their puchase and if the item is backordered at the time it is ordered, simply letting the customer know would go a long way. I don't think most of us would cancel our order if it's something we really want and don't have to have by a certain time if we were told upfront that the item wasn't expected to be shipped for X number of weeks. In fact, I am more likley to do business with people who are upfront about it than I am someone who charges me for it and leads me to believe that it will ship within a few days only to find out after 2-3 weeks that the item is still on back order and it won't go out for another month.
I live my life for a layer of ice
Just like those poured by my bartender vice Any taste of vermouth would be really sublime, When you have a good martini time! -The Reverend Horton Heat |
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