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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I have seen it on a lot of the "tell me what you think of my web page" threads and it is kind of disturbing.
2 things actually. First off people ask for advice, and then immediatly tell everyone they are wrong. To the point of arguing and getting upset. Please just don't post if you don't want to know. The thing I have found far more disturbing of late is the trend in some of the 25 and under crowd to do two things. First off degrade others in their web pages. Other magicians are "boring, tackey, cheap tux wearing" and so on. They build themselvs up by tearing others down. Then they tend to leave out what it is they can do for the customer in the first place! That is the most important part of any sale. To spend time convincing a customer that others are sub standard does you NO GOOD AT ALL if you don't let them know what it is you are selling or can do for them. It is sales 101. It needs to be learned. Am I the only one who has seen this?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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suspectacts Elite user Boston 493 Posts |
Danny,
Remember when we were kids there were those guys who used to walk around with a blinking bunny pin on their label or a playing card tie so that wherever anyone went people would know they were magicians? Well now they build websites! And ever since Blaine and I guess Chris Angel, they all want the world to know that they are not one of those 'geeky' magicians. Gee I remember when Penn and Teller where 'the bad boys of magic.' But trust me folks, if you do magic tricks, a certain percentage of the population is going to assume that you are geeky, even if you wear a suit jacket over a tee shirt of pose in front of brink wall. And that percentage is pretty close to 100. Magic isn't Rock & Roll and your're best bet at standing out is having a show that's different or better then what people are used to. Best of luck and remember: do the website yourself: that way when you realize you need a real job you can build websites for a living. |
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BradBrown Regular user Florence, KY, USA 183 Posts |
What always bugs me about these posts is almost no one who asks for a comment on their site tells us what the purpose of the site actually is. There are a number of things a website can be used for. (I'd be surprised if many people have thought through WHY they have a site, other than it's cool and what your supposed to do if your a pro.) Most sites seem to exist solely to stroke the egos of their owners.
It would be much simpler if the people starting these topics would just let us know what they really want. If you just want affirmation, tells us and we'll post about how cool you are. If you want help getting your website to accomplish a specific business purpose, tell us what it is and we'll give you ideas that may help. That way everybody would get what they want and no one's time would be wasted giving business advice to people who don't want it anyway. But, of course, that's going to happen, so never mind. -Brad |
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rossmacrae Inner circle Arlington, Virginia 2475 Posts |
Quote:
On 2007-06-20 18:20, Dannydoyle wrote: Did I not see, very recently, a topic in this part of the forum that complained that too many websites WERE giving such appeals? Ah, yes - it was joshlondon17 who started "Why do we market the way we do" Quote:
Here's what I mean; Long copy, standard looking websites, all benefits and features for the client, etc. Hopefully you get the idea. ... Do you think there's a reason Derren Brown, David Copperfield, Lance Burton's websites are about them and not about "what they can do for the client?" ... Let the flaming begin! I read that, I thought that the point was worthy of consideration (heck, any new idea is worth evaluating) and, having evaluated it, my conclusion was ... "nope." Of course a sales message needs to convey how you can fill the client's needs ... plus, if possible, some indication that you know what the client's real needs are (maybe even that you've thought of some needs the client doesn't know they have). Here's how I did it - maybe it's 'beating the horse to death,' but here's my approach: http://www.goodmagic.com/magician/10reas.htm I believe the only reason NOT to do so is if (like the 'big names' joshlondon17 cited) you have become a 'trademark' - Copperfield has no need to detail how his shows are better than Joe Bazotz's shows. But I do. Of course, HOW you do it - how you phrase your copy, how you shape your appeals - can speak well or ill of your whole attitude and personality. And of the show you provide. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go beat that dead horse some more before I go to bed. |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
BRAD (Danny, Peter)... dead on the money buddy!
I agree, it's NOT JUST Websites either! It all the "How Do I Make it Big In Full-Time Show Biz, or Create The KILLER Business and, Brochure or Trade Show Act, Casino Show... " and the list goes on. PLEASE UNDERSTAND Correctly... I LOVE IT that folks have real dreams, desires and aspiration for their future success! I am 1000% behind that, it’s just that some (sometimes too many) “EXPECT” that the full time guys who make their living in this industry should share ALL of the real insights and money making skills and techniques that took them YEARS and YEARS, decades upon decades and just blurt it all out to the next unknown newbie who wants to try "casinos, trades shows, corporate meetings, school shows, theme parks, cruise ships..." (WHAT-EVER!) with out having to LEARN from their own experience and FIRST learn to be Bad, then mediocre, THEN learn to be Good, Then finally GREAT! Hey ALL of us each “started” somewhere and we were ALL bad until we got better and then eventually and with good old fashioned elbow grease, and years of MISTAKES to eventually crated our full-time business and performance from this business…. The old saying, “…it takes 20 years to become and ‘Overnight Success’!” It has always been my passion to help others succeed! But often offering insights and information that TOO ADVANCED for the “ever-still growing” performer or the performer who is not READY of the more advanced insights is just too dangerous in unprepared hands and will often do waaay more harm than good! I have personally seen it too many times and is not good for our industry. Which begs the question: How Much Help, Information… etc, and By When Do we expose others to professional insights??? THIS is the challenge! Especially with the INTERNET, making access to real-world support so easy! (and potentially dangerous!) you wouldn’t give a child a sharp knife to run around with and the same is true with real success insights. I’m note sure, either than gut instinct and experience, how to make that ever elusive distinction as to when and were to share and how much to offer who… with our hurting them and our industry both at the same time. I wish I had some magical top-secret formula and answer… I DON’T! It IS an important conversation to have though… I welcome suggestion, ideas, insights and ideas to be able to better help more people! THANKS for bringing it up bud! Thinking of YOU and your Success! Deano <><
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Ross what are you talking about? And did you have to post it 2 times for effect?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Marshall Thornside Inner circle chicago 2016 Posts |
I am always ready for fight.
got my fists up already! :) I know what your talking about. People just don't like honest in your face critique. you gotta have a strong backbone to.
you will remember my name
World's Youngest Illusionista 7th greatest pianist in the world Go Red For Women and Stroke Ambassador www.mai-ling.net |
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rossmacrae Inner circle Arlington, Virginia 2475 Posts |
What I'm talking about, Danny, if both your point (as follows):
Quote:
Other magicians are "boring, tackey, cheap tux wearing" and so on. They build themselvs up by tearing others down. Then they tend to leave out what it is they can do for the customer in the first place! And a parallel thread that suggested that websites citing "customer benefits" are a bad idea. As for posting twice ... my mistake, sorry. |
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suspectacts Elite user Boston 493 Posts |
Interesting we haven't heard from anyone new to the business... I bet they are just scanning the posts for 'secrects'...
Dean, I really want to respond to your post becuase I don't want to leave people with the wrong impression. The longer I am in this field, the more I realize that any 'secrets' and 'insights' are quite secondary for success to HAVING A BETTER PRODUCT and FOLLOWING THE FUNDAMENTALS. Because the magic business has developed into the business of selling secrets to 13 yr old boys (see Penn and Teller's write up in their first book), some people have convinced themselves that there are shortcuts to building a business and making a living. But ultimately the gap is not one of KNOWLEDGE, it's one of ACTION. There are literally hundreds of books on every aspect of building a small business, full of all the same information that business gurus want to sell you, but like a amateur magician who would rather buy a new trick rather than perfect the one's he currently does, people reach out for a "magic bullet solution' to the simplest process. Dean, wouldn't you agree that all the 'so called' secrets that us full timers hold back are nothing compared to following the most basic recipe: 1. Get your name out there 2. Have a product people will love and buy again and again 3. Repeat If everyone made sure they were doing these two steps, they would discover the rest themselves... |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Hi Peter -
Your post reminded me of this thread: Cafe thread titled... There are NO short......usiness! - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
GREAT STUFF GUYS…
Quote:
Interesting we haven't heard from anyone new to the business... I bet they are just scanning the posts for 'secrects'... I never said, suggested, intimated, eluded, that there were any sort of big, mysterious “secrets”. Not sure ANYONE I can see did! As a matter of fact, if anyone ever reads what I write here ‘ever’, I’m not sure there really are any ‘secrets’ to much of anything: booking ones self, building a better web-site, brochure, improving one’s act etc… though I DO believe that there may be some who have us ‘believe’ there are. Heck there is MORE than enough “knowledge” (or ‘secrets’ if you like) RIGHT HERE (on this forum) on just about ANY subject with out having ANYONE ad another single keystroke! ANYONE who really “wants to”,(OK, MORE than just “wants to”!) and “is willing to DO WHAT IT TAKES” (hmmmmmm… sounds familiar!) to become all the success they desire to become! YES, there ARE shortcuts and less hassle methods, ways, directions, ‘recipes’, based on the experience of others, (See the discussion on mentors or, or, or, or…) so as not to have to make all the SAME dumb mistakes as our predecessors… few I see as “secrets”, (as was suggested.) maybe only the correct “information match”. Truth is, (as anyone can tell by reoccurring mantras here) that the ONLY difference between those that are successful and those that are NOT lies in the simple fact that successful people have created the habit of DOING the things that un successful people are un-willing to do… regardless of how they FEEL! THEN add a well placed ‘recipe’ and you have all the LUCK you need to become all the success you dream to become! Luck being: - L abor - U nder - C orrect - K nowledge You’ll notice that FIRST is LABOR… BUT also, “Labor” with out Correct Knowledge is “UCK” and often those are the RESULTS you get! Quote:
Dean, I really want to respond to your post becuase I don't want to leave people with the wrong impression. The longer I am in this field, the more I realize that any 'secrets' and 'insights' are quite secondary for success to HAVING A BETTER PRODUCT and FOLLOWING THE FUNDAMENTALS. I AGREE 1,000%! Never suggested otherwise in my post. The fact of the matter is that “knowledge” is ONLY as useful, powerful as the ACTION applied to it! (as already stated again, and again, and again!) Pretty sure anyone reading this already fully ‘gets’ that already. A lousy product is always counter productive to success… true in EVRY industry! Success and/or failure is due, in large part, as a result of our individual choices, and the ACTION (or In-Action) associated with them. I will also add that the reason that some are even MORE successful that others (and CLEARLY there are those who ARE more successful!) is as a result of what we are willing to BELIEVE (Choose) about ourselves and our success that leads to the appropriate action and thus results and outcomes. No big “secrets” there! As far as I can tell, no one had held-back this success making truth as far as I can tell. BUT certainly there ARE “recipes for success” that WORK and recipes that clearly do NOT! Heck… just TRY making a killer gourmet meal with out one to know what I am talking about! The SAME is true of success, but if one never get’s in the ‘kitchen’ (per this metaphor – HA!) it doesn’t really mater if they “know it all”, right? …and THEN, there is real-world “experience”! (Still another discussion, eh’?) Quote:
Because the magic business has developed into the business of selling secrets to 13 yr old boys (see Penn and Teller's write up in their first book), some people have convinced themselves that there are shortcuts to building a business and making a living. But ultimately the gap is not one of KNOWLEDGE, it's one of ACTION. The truth is, THERE ARE shortcuts! - - Ask ANY athlete, actor, business professional, “successful” magician, ANYONE who rely on directors, coaches, books, seminars… heck, their parents! We ALL could use a bit more help and support to know the right things to do in life! (OR you could do it ALL yourself and wait and see what never happens!) WHY do we think that places like THIS exist, and all the questions we see everyday (the “How do I…”) right HERE all the time! Few want to do it all alone! LIKE IT OR NOT, there ARE better ways to get things done! (and there are worse ways…) just the facts maaaam! GREAT NEWS: Absolutely there ARE “recipes” that work more effectively than others! NOT saying they are EASY… just potentially easier IF we LEARN from them! With help, a recipe, support and shortcut information are all very useful… and as you said, and as well all agree, if you don’t take ACTION, none of it really matters anyway, right? => Look, if you are in California and you want to get to Florida, you need a recipe, a “M.A.P.”, a shortcut (what-ever we want to CALL it) to get there in the most expeditious manner: Can someone in California get there by heading due WEST… (Strait into the big blue drink!) SURE, eventually, but it’s the loooooong way around and you better be a pretty good swimmer! (Hehehehe!) The truth is, THERE ARE BETTER and WORSE Ways to get stuff done! We call this being “EFFECTIVE”! (Agree, disagree, like it or not.) We only have to read a simple success biography or ask someone who has been there, done that to see that as clear as the nose on our face! Did I say, (or anyone here?) or suggest that one will not be successful if they don’t APPLY these experienced based insights or “recipes”? No… no I did not, but it sure is the Looooong way around! (and you better be a good swimmer! – Hehehehe!) Quote:
There are literally hundreds of books on every aspect of building a small business, full of all the same information that business gurus want to sell you, but like a amateur magician who would rather buy a new trick rather than perfect the one's he currently does, people reach out for a "magic bullet solution' to the simplest process. Welcome to the real world! YOU did it, I did, it we ALL did it! Be honest, no one here wants to do it the hardest, most difficult possible way do we??? I know I didn’t and still don’t! Never suggested otherwise… heck in my own personal performance business, I have not bought another new ‘trick’ for my performance for over 20 years now! Too, I am likely The Number ONE Advocate AGAINST the “Magic Bullet Success” mentality! You’ll have seen this before: - Success Is a VERB! - It Requires ACTION! - It doesn’t matter how you FEEL! …do it anyway! Success is WORK and though there ARE better, more elegant ways to get to your own success destination, (Mentors, help, support, coaches, learning, action, testing, at the experience of others, books, events, heck, even HERE… etc!) it still requires the ACTION to make it go! How is that different from what most here (myself included) has ever suggested or at-least fully UDERSTANDS? Again, I agree that there may be those that miss this principle somehow, though I DO believe they “understand” and yet still don’t DO. (Take ACTION) Such is life, but likely, even THEY still “UNDERSTAND”! Nuthin’ new there. Quote:
Dean, wouldn't you agree that all the 'so called' secrets that us full timers hold back are nothing compared to following the most basic recipe: Wow… sounds like “The Looooooooooooooooong Way Around!” with no life raft to me! YES, Action is always better than inaction ever time! We ALL agree on that! Just imagine then, what “well placed, specific, well guided” action could do! …again, simple Applying your proposed method alone, folks may get there “eventually”, but no one I know wants to wait that many lifetimes just to see if that works and then only to try and do it all by themselves. I, for one LOVE helping others as well as “Being Helped” by others… Now THAT is SUCCESS! Thinking of you and your success! I am at your service and In HIS Service, Deano (helping, and being helped) in Reno <>< Home of the IBM 2007
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Hey Deano can you agree only 100% just for me? LOL My head hates nubers higher than 100%
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Hehehehe... OK, I agree 99.999%!
How's that brother? You Rock! Dean <><
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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suspectacts Elite user Boston 493 Posts |
Dean,
Thanks for the follow up post. All I can say is: YES,YES,YES! peter P.S. Danny, what about when you raise your rates 200% from a client you don't really want to work for. I know you believe in THAT math! |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
I LOVE "That" math too! - Whoo Hoo!
Gotta go make more "math" now! Deano in Reno <><
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Peter I do, I just don't use the % is all LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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FacadeTheStiltBoy Elite user Greensboro NC 474 Posts |
I know this sounds mean and all, but let the darn youngins keep screwing up, that way it's easier for us to score the decent paying shows....... (I'm just saying and all)
I will say that I have never worn a suit for a show before, mainly because I have always worried about shredding the thing because I have a huge frame and I get hung up a lot in most jackets. (then again it's hard to keep things nice when juggling machettes and breathing fire) That and just cranky old me hates a lot of websites out there with all this flash and music and whatnot, when all I want is just some information on what is going on, where it's happening and how much it's going to be. I'm wondering though within a few years if the next big boom in the magic industry would be the rebirth of the traditional looking magician. It's going to be interesting. |
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Dennis Michael Inner circle Southern, NJ 5821 Posts |
Yes, it is adisturbing trend, The Internet is changing and what was good 5 years ago, may not be good today.
Site have been ego sites and not selling sites. Ego site are OK if you are someone like Copperfield, but not OK for beginners, or unknowns. It is a changing art and what works for one may not work for another. When you go to a non-magicial site what are you there for? to Learn to get information or to buy something. When a person comes to your site why are they there? Only you can answer that one.
Dennis Michael
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TroyRoark Loyal user Springfield IL 282 Posts |
I don't see this as a "trend." Magicians have been talking like this to each other longer than any of us have been around. It doesn't always have to do with marketing, most times it has to do with with how "hack" the other guy is. It's why I don't hang out with magicians.
If you take the time to develop your craft, put together a seriously killer act, make the right connections with your talent as the backbone of your reputation, and work your tail off, you won't feel the need to say anything bad about anyone again. At that point, you will be king of the hill. Everyone will like you because you have done it right. You'll get referrals from other magicians. You'll be booked solid. When people ask you about The Amazing Joe Schmoe from the other side of town, you can say "They're great!" without worrying about losing shows to them. On the other hand, if you start doing this business talking badly about other performers, while not spending the time to develop that killer act, you're not going to be around long. You'll be a insect splattered on a windshield of a Yugo on the Entertainment Superhighway (HA! I kill me!!) But seriously...Take the time to develop your own great reputation, without compromising anyone else's. |
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TheDean Inner circle Reno, Nevada 2164 Posts |
Very nicely said Troy!
Dean Hankey, *M.D. - The Dean of Success Solutions!
Serving & Supporting YOU and Your Success! "Book More Shows... Make More Money... SERVE MORE PEOPLE! - Not Necessarily In That Order…" (*Marketing Doctor) |
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