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dancingm0nk3y New user 88 Posts 
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I agree that style is what determines uniqueness, but what is it that makes-up style? It seems to be a very amorphous concept that relies not only on many differnt attributes, but also on their interactions within a performance. I'm not sure that one could effectively define style, much less preclude others from attempts at emulation.
I mean, what aspects of Jimi Hendrix's performances can be called "his"? Distorted guitars, bending/blending of notes, timing? Some one could concievably emulate Jimi in all those techniques, but still not come close to his style. Perhaps the ethical question about reverse engineering is one of intentionality. If someone were to watch Slydini's handling of the Han Ping Chen coin sleight and say to themselves "I want to figure out how to do that exactly like Slydini" then they would probably be crossing that ethical line. But, if they saw the performance and said "I want to figure out how to make a coin appear under my hand and have it look that real" then isn't it really inspiration?
-- Clay
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Happy to meet you at intent. This is really tough ground though as intent itself is not visible and we don't have great language to describe subjective reality in our culture. Our language and even our study of human behavior (yeah it's called psychology but the psyche is not so favored) is not so well set up to discuss the connection between intent and behavior.
Using your example, "how to make a coin appear under my hand and have have it look real" is clearly on the abstract effect side. When we get to the visible body actions of how one makes the reveal of the object and what actions immedietly precede it... we may have a good and quantifiable discussion ahead. Can we agree that Slydini's sleight on the table is an intentionally derivative work of Han Ping Chien's sleight?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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dancingm0nk3y New user 88 Posts
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Oh yes, I definately agree about the derivative of Han Ping Chien's slight. And I think I know where you're heading.
Perhaps a better example would be: upon seeing Slydini's performance one were to say, "How can I make my Han Ping Chien look that real?" In regards to the visible body actions, how would you define originality in this matter? Can someone claim ownership of how they open or move their hand? How are these concepts handled in the world of dance? I don't know, but am seriously curious. I am running out the door, so it may be a while before my next post, but I am looking forward to continuing this discussion. Until then, Clay
-- Clay
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Thanks, working on finding some good examples which are easy to relate to for the majority here - many have not seen Slydini in person, or video of Ramsay, or know who Soulja Boy is or familiar with Bowie's song "Little Wonder".
Thematically - intent is a tough one in conjuring as we have both the intent of the performer to discuss and also the communicated perception of intent which is part of what makes magic work for audiences. Perhaps the image of someone dressing up as Chaplin but using modern dance moves? Or how about readings of the opening speech of Shakespeare's Richard III { "Now is the winter of our discontent made summer by..."} as read by Olivier (see the film), Vincent Price (paraphrased in Dr Phibes?) and perhaps by Truman Capote. Distinct voices and distinct affects. Would that work?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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dancingm0nk3y New user 88 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-11-18 20:06, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I take it that these are examples of percieved intent of being original? I do see your point about a person's style being a tangible part of their commercial appeal, but I think performers at the top of their field should expect others to try and figure out what makes them so effective. I guess my question is where is the line between inspiration and theft?
-- Clay
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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-11-19 06:35, dancingm0nk3y wrote: My two cents... If someone who knows both would look at you and see them, it's theft. Actually, part of what makes theft so disturbing is when they look at you and don't see them, but see you, but ONLY because they've never seen them. Then they give you credit you don't deserve. |
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enginemagic Special user Bluffton Indiana 597 Posts
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I alwase see videos as a good way to learn,but hands on and some one with the skills working with you is the best way. I have experienced that first hand with plumbing,wiring,construction ,and computers.watching someone doing something I can pick up on hoe to do that task myself
I wonder if anny one takes anny of this seriously LOL many see it as idle talk
theres a lot to learn out there,many interesting subjects,and hobbies to enjoy
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts
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Actual study has shown this to vary from person to person. Different people learn best in different ways. Some people can not learn from demonstration, but can learn well from text, while others can only learn from experience and trial and error.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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On 2007-11-19 06:35, dancingm0nk3y wrote:... Along with erlandish - maybe the line falls where the artist's expression of self is in front of (as a choice) or behind (as a vehicle)? Who's driving the work - the artist being quoted or imitated or the artist offering the new work? For example, consider the Verve's use of a few orchestral phrases from a stones song to get "Bittersweet Symphony" from "the last time"... clearly on the good side IMHO. * note, there are performances of the verve song on YouTube if you don't remember it from the end of the movie "Cruel Intentions".
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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dancingm0nk3y New user 88 Posts
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Bittersweet Symphony ... Man that was a good song. I wasn't aware that the orchestral part was from a Stones song. So, for me at least, this song comes across as new without reminding me of the Stones. (However, the orchestral melody is precisely what I like about this song.)
But, what about a song like "I'll be missing you" by Puff Daddy? I don't think anyone could listen to this song without thinking of "Every Breath you take" by the Police. Does the fact that this song is so-o-o derivative of the Police make it a lesser work of art? Can one really say that Sean Combs expression of self is still in front given how similar it is to the Police song? At the same time, could someone really argue that there is nothing new or original in that song? I mean, who is responsible for the popularity of the song? Sean Combs, for the lyrics he wrote, or the Police, for the music they wrote. (I'm sure that he paid for the rights, but just hypothetically)
-- Clay
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-11-19 22:04, dancingm0nk3y wrote: With you on that - and linked to a performance with Sting onstage. IMHO that's a vehicle FOR him and does not serve beyond a public attempt at rehabilitating his image. How about George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord" when compared to the Chiffon's song "He's So Fine"? Is that closer to where we can draw a line? IMHO even if George Harrison truly forgot where he heard the melody he truly messed up by not permitting his record company to pre-settle and honor the earlier work. Sorry to say... not so good for "this song" 
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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dancingm0nk3y New user 88 Posts
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Heh. I guess that's exactly where we draw the line as a society. I personally feel that "My sweet lord", while maybe not being more profound, is at least a more ambitious piece of art and I think it is somewhat a blow to creativity that it was punished. But, that is only my opinion and this case does provide a good legal mark for intellectual property and the discussion.
I found an interesting synopsis of the case here . It explains how the judge compared the two songs and the criteria that was considered. So, the next question is what would this apply to in magic? Is it the method and/or the presentation? or the routining of effects?
-- Clay
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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IMHO, fitting the Sanskrit chant into the chord/rhythm structure of the pop song was quite an accomplishment - and treating the piece as anything other than an addendum or derivative work was just strange... but that's just my perspective.
Probably better to avoid the stock and sidebar issues on this stuff when we move to conjuring. Perhaps the pom-pom pole and the chinese sticks might be a good case for what some have called 'evolution' ?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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dancingm0nk3y New user 88 Posts
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To be honest, I don't know much about the history of those effects. I do remember I had a pair of the chinese sticks when I was a kid that came with a magic set.
I'm not really familiar with the pom pom sticks, but from what I looked at on the web they look like the same thing. Is the method different?
-- Clay
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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The pom-pom sticks are the ones where you can also pull the top of one cord and the pom-pom on the other side goes up. It's a Histed innovation - pretty clever.
 - will look for some better examples so we can discuss.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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skinnyJon New user Upstate New York 42 Posts
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Quote:
On 2007-09-07 13:17, cristo wrote: To respond to the original question, which I understand as coming up with a method for performing a specific effect for the purpose of performing it -- Not blatantly stealing someone's entire act or marketing the effect as your own creation. The idea of repeatedly watching an effect on youtube with the intention of discovering the method so as to avoid having to purchase it from the creator is unethical in my opinion. I think it is the intention to avoid paying for the trick that makes it stealing. On the other hand... if I'm at a magic shop and the demonstrator exposes the method due to poor performance, am I still obligated to purchase the trick if I wish to perform it? I'm not talking about a situation where there is apparatus to build, but what about a coin vanish? or card trick? |
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Posted: Nov 17, 2007 02:23 am 
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