I would like some feedback on a question concerning the final load for the Cups and Balls, Chop Cup ect.
Why do so many magicians produce one more final load than they have cups? One cup, two loads. Two cups, three loads. Three cups, four loads. Does the public really think, "Look at that, both of those ball wouldn't even fit in the cup at the same time!" That is REALLY amazing. Is it possible that the surprise of the final load is so great, that the second load only diminishes the first surprise? Also, since it is obvious that both balls can't fit in the cup at the same time does it reinforce the thought, "you must have put it in there when I wasn't looking". Anyway, I am wondering if anyone else out there has thought much about this concept.

Lonnie

I think you just answered your own questions... oddly enough.
-DJ

I have thought about that many times over the years.
I think that it again depends on the concept of the context of the routine, how it is presented and what the final load is.
The first time I saw the extra loads was from a chop cup routine and it was produced then the cup was just left on the table ....the magician said go ahead and examine the cup...boom second load. That was stunning because there was no idea of a second load. Due to a pause it was more stunning than what many people do now by just producing it with no reason at all.

I think that vernon did the extra load to be different as many people of the time were only producing three loads and he was astudent of Malini who produced four loads.
More than anything else it is tradition but again look at Gazzo who produces more than four final loads. Masterful and well done.

What may be obvious to a magician is often not at all obvious to a layman. They will also try to reconstruct a routine in their heads and by producing the fourth load they cannot backtrack. If they do they notice that the loads do not collapse and they cannot fit in the cup together.
Later,
Mobius

Mobius,
Those are excellent examples of how the extra load can be effective. The pause. The way Gazzo produces load after load. Unbelievable. And I do agree, many magicians produce the extra load with no reason at all. Thanks for the response.

Lonnie

Gee Lonnie, how many are going to produce? One? Start a billiards routine and keep going from there? Or check out Tom Stone's latest ebook and think about what can happen with the large balls beyond just signaling "okay I'm done - was it good for you"?

;)

Jon,
"Okay I'm done - was it good for you?" Now that is funny, the perfect way to end a cups and balls routine.

Lonnie

Everything must have a reason.

When I do my renaissance festival chop cup routine, I say, "I'm sure you know how this is done. I have an extra ball. (I lift the cup) It's a billiard ball." (pause)
"When you see a billiard ball like that, take a cue from me." (produce cue ball - pause) "You've been behind the 8 ball for the whole thing." (8 ball falls out of cup which is a foot or so off the top of the table.)

It gives the impression that I could keep producing balls, but that it's a good time to stop.

If it didn't get a strong reaction, I wouldn't do it.

Bill,
Very nice. As usual. BTW I guess I should mention that you are one of my favorite magicians. True. Your description is exactly what I'm talking about. Everything does have a reason. Plus timing and technique and the other small details that go into everything that I've ever seen you do. Of course you are producing three large loads from one cup with presentation and motivation, not just an extra load because that is how you've seen it done.
You always get a strong reaction from me.

Lonnie

Lonnie:

You are far too kind! You know that I have always found your work entertaining and fascinating. You are one of my favorite magicians, as well.

You have a tremendous understanding of not only the how of magic, but the why of it.

My guess is that some magicians may think that if one final load is good, then two final loads must be better, and thus three final loads must be even better than two.

However, I agree that more is not always better, especially if there is no rhyme or reason for it. Just proving that you can sneak things under a cup without someone seeing it isn't magic! SETH

I used to produce 3 final loads, then I move to 4 final loads, I now I am back to 3. Why? Because I get a better reaction producing 3 final loads at once.
If something else works for you, go ahead and do it.

Interesting question.

Two thoughts. Firstly:

Firstly, many spectators try to deconstruct routines in their heads as they're watching whether we like it or not. At the end of a routine, I'm sure many people think that they know how it's done, even if they're incorrect. I like the fourth load in a c&b routine (or a second load in a Chop cup routine) because the thought that "you must have put it in there when I wasn't looking" is the most immediately obvious explaination as that could have occurred at any point in the routine.

I find that the extra load provides an extra kick because it has appeared in the cup in the few seconds since they saw the last production. If you did sneak it in there, it was done right there under their noses and they still didn't notice it. That's powerful whether they've tried to deconstruct the method or not.

I would guess that many (most?) people present their cup routines as a game or a con rather than being 'magic'. You'll see many people actually use the word 'trick' in connection with their c&b routine. As a result, spectators are not being asked to suspend their disbelief for the c&b quite in the same way as other magic effects. This indicates right up front that the whole thing is sleight of hand rather than magic.

Secondly (less deep thinking in this one):

Most of the appreciation of a good routine comes from the fun, entertainment and surprise. The surprise is provided by difference. I think the fourth load works really well when it's different from the other three: three white lacrosse balls then a red one; three lemons then an apple etc.