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Gordyboy Loyal user British Columbia, Canada 216 Posts |
I'm quite curious of what you all think about this, I'm not sure what to think.
A member of the magic community sent out "fake" requests for show information via email to a dozen or more local magicians requesting costs for a (fictitious) show (childrens birthday party). Unfortunately, the price checking magii unknowingly sends a "reply to all" and the fictitious show scam is revealed because the response went to his entire mail box including the magicians who thought they had a possible show. I wasn't one of the magicians who received the "phony" email but a few of my friends did and some are pretty upset. In this fellows defense, he says that another magician was accusing him of undercutting and he was trying to collect information to defend himself. He has made his prices public, if we are to trust what he says. He does say that he has asked several magicians their prices in the past and some do not give truthful answers. Price comparisons are common practice in many industries. My prices are lower than his, but I'm not nearly as experienced and need to learn to be a better entertainer, so I shouldn't be charging as much but I don't consider myself to be undercutting. So, what do you think? Did he act unethically? |
Steve Pellegrino Loyal user 224 Posts |
Personally I don't think it's unethical and as you say it's common practice in many industries. You should have an idea of what your competition is offering and what they charge. I just don't think it's a big deal if your competition knows what you may or may not charge for a specific show.
With that being said there are some Sales 101 lessons here. If I ever received an email from someone just price shopping without a phone number, I wouldn't respond to it. There are too many questions that need to be asked before a price can be quoted. If they are just price shopping, they are looking for the lowest price and that isn't me! You need to show them the benefits of hiring you over anyone else. Don't worry about undercutting - let them. They will always be known as the cheapest act in the market and will have an almost impossible time rising above that. Being the least expensive act in the market isn't going to get you more shows, it's only going to get you more low paying shows. |
Banester Special user 669 Posts |
I don't think its unethical either and it is something that you should be doing! For one you would want to know if you are under charging or over charging. That also brings up what Steve was talking about. Although you shouldn't worry about the cheapest guy you also don't want to price yourself out of the market. You need to establish a figure that the market will bear. And as Steve said, sell yourself!
The art of a magician is to create wonder.
If we live with a sense of wonder, our lives become filled with joy -Doug Henning- |
Andy the cardician Inner circle A street named after my dad 3362 Posts |
Actually, in the most industries it is common practice.
Cards never lie
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61magic Special user Sacramento California 775 Posts |
You have two points to consider:
1 - undercutting, the market will set the price. If one guy is getting dates because he is charging less his customer has the right to shop for a better price, its the American way. I don't feel sorry for someone who is "undercut" it is part of competition. They guy not getting the date needs to adjust the price, produce a better product, or improve the advertisement. Tell you buddy not to worry. 2 - Depending on what your friend said in the message it could be very unethical. If for example he solicited pricing under the false promise for a show that he had no intent to have would be unethical. There would be intent to deceive to gain the information. On the other had if he was only asking for someone to voluteer information about price structure without the "promise" of a date, no problem.
Professor J. P. Fawkes
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Norden New user Vancouver, BC 56 Posts |
Hello all,
Well first let me say this - I am the magician that sent the email to my competitors in the market. This is not something I normally due, and I have mixed feelings on the practice now. I do not think it is unethical to price check your competition - in fact, I think it is bad business if you do not. However, tact is something that can and should be used and perhaps I did not in my haste. I had been accused of charging too little from a certain magician. That magician also informed me of prices for other people in our genre of magic that I did not quite believe. To see who was charging what, and see where the truth lies I sent the people who are listed in the Yellow Pages that I am listed in an email. About 18 magicians with a few non YP in there too. Yes, I used a fake name. I thought the response might be low if I said who I was. I got many responses but it was an email account I did not use much - so an auto reply let all who I emailed who I was - yes, that was stupid. A magician who received it then emailed it to all he/she knew and started calling people to let them know (in not so nice words) what he/she thought of me. Yes, the same person who accused me of being too cheap and told me to raise my prices. The debate has been huge - many magicians agree with the practice, some do it themselves, some have no opinion, and some want my results! And some are very upset. Yes - the prices I got were mainly what people told me there were - and yes, some people did fudge their numbers and some quite a bit. All this is very useful information when running a business. The question is - is it ethical? Yes, I say it is. From your supermarkets, to phone companies, to gas station to hotels - they all price check and many do not let the competitor know who they are. Should I have done it? Probably not. First - I let that one magician get to me and I should have ignored him/her. Second - in my haste of cut and paste and grab the emails from YP I price checked some close friends of whom have always been honest with me about their prices. This is very bad and I regret that deeply. Third: some were offended that I did not ask first - I should have asked first. I thought a quick email might be faster than a 30 minute discussion about prices to each magician but they did deserve to be asked first. If they did not share, or fudged or lied about their rates then a price check would be in order. Yet some I do not know very well - what would you say if I phone you out of the blue for prices? Using a fake name also annoyed people - should I have not added a name at all? If I just put my first name and an ambiguous email address would that be ok? What if I got a friend to call them all? I was told that it was bad because I wasted their time with no intention of hiring anyone - what if I did hire one of them? Would it be okay then? What if I got my friend to call and hire one of them and pay for the show myself? Is this better? What if a client calls me for a show and tells me that she has all these emails from other magicians with these high prices and she offers to tell / send me them? Ethical? I was told that if I had a friend do the calling and then he hired someone that would have been fine - but 17 other magicians still had their time wasted - and the end result was the same, I just paid for it. Is that better? People pay for Market Research all the time... Hard questions - I would love to hear what people think and how you deal with it. I know the response of "I charge what I want and who cares what others charge", but I did care what others charge if I am being accused of low balling others. As it turns out I charge in the top third of the magicians - right where I thought I was and want to be. Mike Norden |
61magic Special user Sacramento California 775 Posts |
Mike, nice message. I would say if you need to use a fake name, or make a fake promise of a non-existant show to gain the information would be unethical to most people.
I've been in magic over 35 years and I have done a lot of shows and had been accused of the same thing. I think most of us run into this when we compete for business with our peers. If one guy wants to charge $400 for a show that you offered to do for $300 and he is upset that you "undercut" him how would this be any different than going to a different car dealer that is offering a rebate? In fact if you do not know the prices your compeition charges all the better. Its hard to acuse someone of undercutting if you don't know how much to undercut... Price checking is normal business practice but the ethical issue comes into play on the "how", no the "why" it is done. Just charge what you feel the venue is worth and let things work themselves out. Good Luck
Professor J. P. Fawkes
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Waters Inner circle 2508 Posts |
I totally agree with 61magic's comments. I have been a (part-time) performer and full time sales rep for a number of years. I give presentations all the time (for one purpose or the other). The truth is if you "SELL YOUR SHOW" you don't need to worry about the price (unless you are radically overpriced). Sell what is special about you and your show. If that doesn't shine through, we don't deserve the "close".
I don't think you have to resort to shady practices to constantly worry about your price, if you are too focused on your price you will project the same concern to your potential clients (and you could be leaving money on the table). Be above it all and sincerely offer the best service and entertainment you can. The price will take care of it's self. Sean |
Norden New user Vancouver, BC 56 Posts |
I agree - this issue is the word undercutting vs. low balling I guess. I never undercut anyone. i.e.: steal a show that someone has booked and offer a lower price to take the gig away. Since I might now know everyone's price then undercutting would not be all that possible. I was accused of being too low and not having the 'bar' raised enough. In other words my product is the same but my price is lower - like being the 'Walmart' magician. In order to see if my price is competitive in the true sense I wanted to see what the other are charging and am I under selling the same product. Heck, if I can make more money and make every happy great! It looks bad if you charge $300 and I charge $200 and the product and entertainment is near same. This makes the higher magician look like he is ripping someone off - or that I am not charging enough and then others have to bring their price down in order to remain competitive if I am getting all the business.
I do not want to be known as the low priced guy who gets all the biz - like 1& Reality or something! I did not think my price was that low and based on some hearsay about other prices it seemed that way. By getting the prices I was able to determine this was not true and I am quite happy with my price range. Again - I agree the process in getting the info was poorly done and I offended people and I am not pleased with myself over that. However, it is hard to say that price checking is ok, just the manner in the way you do it the issue. The end result is the same no matter how you do it - so I am wondering if people wanted to know the competitors prices - how would you do it in a way that you see as ethical? (Other than just asking the person). Thanks! Mike |
dancingm0nk3y New user 88 Posts |
But, if you did identify yourself as a magician how would you ever know if other magi were giving you their real pricing?
In other words, what's to stop someone from saying "Oh My going rate is $500" even though they always offer a "special" or "sale" price of $400 or $350? Clay
-- Clay
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Gordyboy Loyal user British Columbia, Canada 216 Posts |
Clay, that's one of the key points that started this thing.
If someone doesn't want to tell you what they charge, that's entirely up to them. Being deceitful about your prices is what I would call unethical. One of the reasons I didn't give my opinion at the beginning of this thread because I wanted to know the opinion of others before swaying anyone one way or the other. Webster defines ethical as "conforming to accepted standards of conduct". In our society there are precedents set for price checking without identifying a persons true identity or reason for checking the prices. If a stranger sent me an email requesting pricing and it ended up being a price checking excercise, I think this is conforming to accepted standards of conduct. If a close friend does the same thing, perhaps that is not an accepted standard of conduct (??). At the very least, I guess it would hurt my feelings and make me feel that we're not as close of friends as I thought and that I'm not trusted. A sincere apology and explanation should go a long way to repairing the damage. I don't think Mike's actions were unethical. Some people took exception to his actions, maybe because they considered Mike to be friend. They probably won't make that mistake again (hahahaha... just kidding Mike). So, maybe not "nice" or maybe not "friendly", but not unethical. |
Norden New user Vancouver, BC 56 Posts |
Yes - I think that sums it up well Gord. Many magicians did not have an issue with the Price Check, but that I had not valued their friendship enough to trust them and just ask. That was a mistake.
Price checking other performers I do not know very well or not at all maybe - but close friends was an oversight on my part. It was a cut and paste job with grabbing all the email addresses out of Yellow Pages with the thought to who it was all going to go too. Would not have been an issue but for the auto reply. I have tried my best to contact the people I have offended and apologize for not being a good friend. As for the people I barely know or know at all who are upset about the price check - I can only say I am sorry it offended them but I am not apologizing for the practice of price checking. Although I can say I do not think I will use this method ever again anyway. I am quite happy with my prices. Thank you all for your thoughts on the subject. This is a great site for something like this. Mike |
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